Embracing Emotional Intelligence in Negotiation with Tony Anagor

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. Thanks for joining us today. With over 10 million downloads and listeners from more than 180 different countries, it's dedicated listeners just like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of the American Negotiation Institute. Now, before we get into today's insightful conversation, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives. Have you ever found yourself wishing that you could navigate those high stakes conversations with more confidence? Or perhaps you're looking to empower your team with the art of persuasion and conflict resolution? At the American Negotiation Institute, we've crafted specialized keynotes and workshops tailored for those very needs. We've transformed the negotiation skills of professionals worldwide, and we're eager to do the same for you. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And our goal is to help you improve your lives and the lives of those around you, one difficult conversation at a time. Don't let another challenging conversation leave you second guessing. Click the link in the description to discover how we can help you find confidence in conflict, negotiate better deals, and have stronger relationships. Because in the world of business, every conversation counts. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Hey, Wah me. Good to see you, man.

You too.

How are you doing? Well, I'm doing well. How's your Tuesday going?

Good, good, good, good, good, good. I'm coming to the end of my day here. And what time is it where you are?

One.

Okay. Okay. Yeah, I'm winding down and you're kind of still cranking up.

Yeah, exactly, man. I'm hitting my peak, you know?

Yes.

Yeah, this is good. I have a couple more. I think one more podcast, another meeting, and then my son's soccer game, so that'll be fun. Yeah. So this is great, man. I'm glad we're able to connect. I appreciate you accepting the invite.

Listen, I mean, you've been on my radar for four years. Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I came across you probably about maybe five years ago. I've just been following you and, you know, watching your superlative rise to stardom and. Yeah, it's great. I mean, I like what you do and I like the reason you do it as well.

So thank you.

Yeah, yeah. I was honored to accept.

That's great. The small world. That means a lot to me. I appreciate it. It's been fun growing. And one of the things I say is that with this platform we've created, the goal is to introduce the world to the greatest thinkers in the field. And one of the things that makes people really good at conflict resolution and negotiation is humility. And that same aspect of what makes them great in that field also makes it tough for them to self promote and market. And so I say, all right, let me build this platform and then just be as generous as possible and help people get out there. When I saw your work, I was like, okay, this is a voice I definitely want my folks to hear from.

I really appreciate that. And you're quite right. I'm the worst self promoter out there. I just. I'm a quite a private guy. Anyway, I mean, I. This is maybe the first, possibly the second podcast in my life I've done.

Really?

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So.

Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, it's tough, man. I know. For me, I was in the same boat for a long time, and just people around me encouraged me to flip the switch. I said, okay, cool, I'll try it out. And I was kind of scared when people started to respond because I was giving. Always doing really technical posts, and they're like, hey, the advice you're giving is good, but I'm not seeing much Kwame in there, like, the personality. I was like, nobody wants to see that. Yeah, it's. I was like, okay, fine, I'll try this vulnerable thing and show a little bit more of myself. I was like, oh, no, it's working.

You put your family there, your kids, your wife, and. And it really shows you as a person what your values shine through. So. Yeah. And also the thing with. For me, with negotiation, the reason the whole field of negotiation was so interesting to me is this idea of the way egos just have this pernicious way of seeping into conversations, conflicts, and on pa. A negotiation should be fun, right? They should be creative pursuits on paper. But for some reason, you know, when I do my trainings and people hear negotiation, you can see their backs get up. They just. And people say, no, no, I hate negotiating.

Yeah.

And I'm like, you. I'd like to change people's perception of what a negotiation really is. Right. What it looks like and how fun great negotiations can be.

I love that. I love it. I love it. I think. And the thing is, when people finally get a hold of that and they understand what it could be, it doesn't need to be scary or anything or aggressive or anything like that. Then they're like, oh, what have I. What I've been. I've been doing my whole life. But there was so much more to life that I could have taken advantage of. But it's just great to see that click in their heads and then they start to just roll with it.

Yeah. Yeah.

That's awesome. So how'd you get into. How did you find yourself in negotiation originally?

Well, I studied biocomputing at school, so I'm a scientist actually by trade, and I majored in human learning. That was. I did my thesis on negative and positive reinforcement and the power of this on human learning. And I'm talking a good few years ago, Kwame. I'm. I'm a. I've been around the track a few times. So it's a good few years ago when I was at uni. I just remember that whole. The thesis and this whole idea of what goes on in between our ears just fascinated me. So I kind of. I've been into this kind of stuff way before it became really popular. I was into personal development and read books around. What was the first person? Obviously, you know, get Dale Carnegie, how to Win Friends and Influence People. That book kind of threw the gauntlet down to me and about relationships and how using good communication, you can literally build a corridor for yourself, human interaction and almost build shortcuts to successful outcomes. So I had this as a hypothesis for many, many years. I got into sales, got into marketing, set up a few businesses. But in the back of my mind, I'd always had this desire to want to really go deep and learn the ins and outs of communication, articulating one's thoughts, one's feelings in a skillful way to build better outcomes. So I found myself always gravitating towards roles where I was training people. And it wasn't until. So I'm from. I'm originally from London, but I'm now living in Barcelona. And when I moved to Barcelona, I began working after doing a few bits and pieces, but I began working in coaching. So I did a coaching course where I did leadership coaching. And I gravitated towards working with leaders and helping them build teams, articulate their ideas successfully, communicate them in an effective way. I teach at a business school. I teach corporate communication skills at a business school based in Barcelona. And as part of my communication interest, I just became drawn to what happens when two people who are mild mannered sit around a table and you give them a topic to negotiate and suddenly the old Neanderthal comes out and they start battling with each Other how does that happen? Right? I mean, what's the process that goes on? And can that process be broken down, analyzed, and is there a way we can hack that process and turn these potentially conflictive situations and conversations into beautiful conversations? And that's kind of really what sparked my interest.

Oh, my gosh, this is good. Listen, man, I already started taking notes and everything. I feel like. I feel like this conversation already. This could just be a really super organic intro to the episode because we're just flowing now. If you're cool, let's. I don't want to break this momentum you've got. You cool with just making this the intro and just flowing into it?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I actually said to your assistant, I said, kwame is the guy that I would love to be caught with on a 12 hour nonstop flight, because you and I would literally just start and we wouldn't stop. And you know when you look up and you've landed and you think, dude, we've just been talking for 12 hours, that's the kind of guy I feel you are.

I appreciate it. Listen, man, I'm feeling it too. This is perfect because, yeah, we look at the world in a very similar type of way, and it's so cool to see your. Your growth and trajectory and how even though at the beginning, if some. When you're probably going through it, it might not have been clear how everything was connected, but now looking back, we can see it started psychology, then actually putting it into action with the sales and everything like that, then gravitating toward coaching and teaching. And now here we are putting it all together in the negotiation field. I think that's brilliant.

Yeah. Yeah. And there's one caveat as well. There's one other real key part to this for me. You know, when Simon Sinek came out with his why, why, starting with why kind of thing. I remember I did an exercise about four and a half years ago, just really wanting to understand, is this the path for me? Right. Am I going to nail this flag to the mast and dedicate the rest of my life to negotiation and making it a democratic pursuit where everyone negotiates, not just executives, around a business table? So I sat with my wife and went for a coffee and I said to her, listen, I need you to ask me two questions. I need you to ask me what do I do and why do I do it? And when I answer, I need you just to keep asking me why. Just keep going. Don't stop. Just keep asking me why. Give me the space to Think, don't jump in and answer my question for me, or don't fidget to make me feel uncomfortable with the silence. Just ask me why. Just keep going, keep going. And so we went for a coffee and we started talking and she just kept asking, why, why, why? You know, why do you want to do this? And, well, because I want to help people. And what does that give you? Well, it just makes me feel if people can communicate better, we live in a better world. Yeah, but why? And we just kept going deeper and deeper. And we found that when I was five years old, my sister died. And I stuttered as a child, so I really couldn't communicate well at all. If you had met me at 10 years old, I was a stutterer. I couldn't speak. I was very, very shy, kept myself to myself. So I was totally misunderstood as a child. And so when Brenda died, I remember no one told me. Just came home from school one day and there was no. Everyone was crying in the house, but nobody ever told me. And they assumed that because I couldn't speak, that I didn't know or I didn't care. And I just remember that heartache that I felt that I just couldn't express the pain I was feeling. And so my why of why I dedicate myself to this pursuit. I always feel I'm giving that five year old Tony a second chance. I think that had I had access to the ability to be able to communicate challenging conversations, challenging topics, and not be afraid, had I had the tools to do so, it would have saved me a lot of heartache in my teenage years. And so, yeah, it's no accident that today that's what I dedicate myself to.

That's incredible. First of all, thank you for sharing that story. I mean, for the listeners, I bet it's. It's hard for them to. It would be impossible for them to listen and not feel something, and feel something for the young version of yourself, but also feel something inside of themselves. Because I think everybody can relate to the feeling of not being understood or not feeling heard. And so really, Tony, this is your superhero origin story. And now what? Your. Your superpower is giving the superpower of communication to people all around the world. That'. Incredible.

Yeah, yeah, definitely could say that. And that also helped me get over the lack of desire to want to kind of self promote and talk about myself. It's probably why I'm on your podcast today, because I've been through my journey. And what I realize is, Kwame, it's not about me. Right. It's absolutely not about me. It's about the people that I can help. I had one woman send me an email and she said, my five year old cousin lost her mother and she's gone so quiet. And just because of what you've told me, I'm now going to create the space for her to have the conversation with the people around her. And just hearing stuff like that, you think, well, you know, Tony, it's not about you. Right? Who cares about you? Everyone cares about themselves. So if I can build that bridge, if I can share my experience and dedicate that to helping other people have those conversations, then I feel that I'm doing my bit. And also, let me just say, I decided to do it in the corporate world as opposed to just in the general public, because I have a fundamental belief that the changes we desire in society will come from the private sector. Leaders who lead companies, leaders who lead teams have to be able to understand this, have to be able to work with this framework skill set to have these challenging conversations, especially now. And I believe if we can create companies and create organizations, we have an emotionally intelligent approach to the way we negotiate, the way we talk to each other. I think that's where the change begins.

Hello, my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question. Have you ever wondered how to elevate your team's negotiation game and how you can help the folks on your team have better, difficult conversations? At the American Negotiation Institute, we offer transformative keynotes and workshops tailored to empower professionals with top tier negotiation and conflict resolution skills. Whether it's a keynote for your next event or hands on training for your team, we've got you covered. Don't just negotiate. Master the art with the American Negotiation Institute. Click the link in the description to find out more. Elevate, negotiate and succeed. That's such a fascinating premise. I want to go into that too, because tell me if I'm capturing the essential element of this. So what you're saying is your belief is that if we start in the corporate sector teaching people how to resolve conflicts and negotiate with emotional intelligence, the hypothesis is that that same ethos will start to permeate through other areas of society?

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I say this because I coach CEOs and I coach C suite and they might come to me with a challenge. It might be we have silos in the company and we're trying to kind of break down the silos. Or it may be a challenge where they feel that members of the team just getting along with each other. And so therefore, the focus is not on being innovative. The focus is on dealing with infighting. And I sit and I listen, and I think this is a communication problem here. This is a challenge of psychological safety in the company to be able to have difficult conversations, maybe with difficult people about difficult topics. So if I can help demystify that whole approach and provide frameworks for those kind of exchanges, when you create that level of psychological safety, then people can say what they really think.

Yes. No. This makes so much sense now when we're talking about it from the C suite perspective, we're thinking about the bottom line. We're thinking about organizational efficiency and these types of metrics. And when it comes to conveying the value of emotional intelligence in these conversations, what barriers do you when you're trying to get people bought into the concept? Fundamentally?

What a great question. I took the decision from the very get go that I was going to stick with emotional intelligence as a emotional intelligent negotiation as my kind of my banner. And it met a lot of resistance, and it still does. People just seem to assume that emotional intelligence means being supplicative or supine and, you know, namby, pamby and soft and all that kind of stuff. For some reason, it's just got that ramp. But when you tag negotiations onto it, it's a bit of a cognitive dissonance. Well, wait a minute. Don't you have to be a Gordon Gekko kind of sharpshooter to be able to be a good negotiator? So where does emotional intelligence come into it? And so I put it all under the banner of influence. And if you looking to influence a situation, and I always say if A meets B, there is an outcome which is C, and you can influence what that outcome is. And if you use emotional intelligence to influence that outcome, then you're moving it to a positive area. Because emotional intelligence encapsulates the way in which you articulate your idea. It also encapsulates what you think the other person feels is important and creating an environment where you can both put those down on the table and discuss that. And as you're discussing that in a negotiation in a creative fashion, then you can start to look to build some creative outcomes for the future. And it sounds really easy. It sounds like simple stuff, Kwame. But you and I know everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face, right? You know, it sounds great. Then you get the adrenaline rush, everybody goes in, and then we default back to what we know, what we've picked up from our parents or from society saying that this is how we need to be.

The way that you persuade the C suite to adopt a negotiation, a mindset that has emotional intelligence, is an example of your own emotional intelligence. Because I think a lot of times people will say, well, this is what the study says. This is why we have to do it, because the science says we should do this. That's not the issue. You're recognizing that essentially in some circles, emotional intelligence has a branding issue. They think that it's soft and ineffective. But then you say, hey, what is our goal? We have this goal and we want to have influence over the goal. This is the path to having that influence. And when it's clear to them that there is a clear objective and a clear payoff to utilizing the skills, now they can see, okay, this is what helps me to get the outcome that I want. I'm not just being soft and emotional for no reason.

Yeah, correct. I'll tell you a story. About a month ago, I was working with a group of scientists from Germany and the manager of the group said to me, I really want to make sure that my team working with emotional intelligence, they're learning to influence because they deal with many stakeholders and they need to be able to influence people where some things are not a priority to their stakeholders, but they're a priority to them. So how do we create that kind of framework for this level of conversation? And I said, okay, tell me for you, before we do the training, tell me for you what would be an optimum outcome? And she said, I want them to know that emotional, intelligent influence is a must have in this day and age, not a nice to have. So I said, okay, great. So I went away. We prepared the workshop and as you can imagine, so they were German scientists. So they come in and they'd never had this type of training before. And it was on the screen, emotional intelligence. I didn't hide it. Emotionally intelligent negotiation. It was written on the screen as soon as they walked in. And I shook every one of their hands as they came in. And I could feel some people were kind of tepid with their handshakes, other people were inquisitive. And so when everyone sat down, I said, so we haven't said a word to each other and all came in. And the way in which you greeted me has already told me things about you without even you even knowing. Some of you shook my hands firmly. Others of you shook my hand in a kind of wish I didn't want, wish I didn't have to shake my hat, your hand. Other people, you all greeted me in different ways. And so we're already starting to talk to each other and communicate with each other. What I want for you is for you to be able to have a level of control, an influence over that kind of interaction because it happens anyway. And so we did the workshop and at the end, now this was the sweet thing. At the end of the workshop when we were going for the feedback, one of the scientists who was particularly at the beginning, he was, he said he was particularly skeptical. He said, I was quite skeptical about this because I don't think, I didn't think we needed it. But now that I've done the workshop, I really understand the power of this style of negotiation. Not just in business, but this is going to help me with my 15 year old son. And my heart just opened up because that's the key. I want people to see that it's not just negotiating around the business table. You walk out and you negotiate with your partner, with your children, with the person in your local bakery. It's always a negotiation.

This story helps to highlight the point that you made before about why it's so powerful to start this in the corporate space. Because they, once you start to adopt it, it becomes obvious that you need to utilize this at home. And let me go a little bit deeper with this hypothesis. Tell me if I'm, if I'm off on this too. Because if I am having problems at home with my family, my wife, my kids, whatever it happens to be, I might blame them for their behavior or just talk about the circumstances or whatever that happens to be. But oftentimes we might not take that step to say I need to improve my skills in this area. And so there's really nothing compell telling me to seek out that type of education. But if we go through the corporate space, the education is mandatory and you have to do it. And so it's really the only time we will have their captive attention in that kind of format to where they have to adopt it and incorporate it in a very narrow strategic sense. And then it becomes very clear, aha. I get it. This works in other areas of my life.

Absolutely, absolutely. And that's been my experience over the last five years. That has been my experience. And that's what I hear most when people show up at the workshop or the feedback, I get the discussions I have. It's always around, wait a minute. This is not just, this is also for. And also the other thing is you get people in the workplace who say, no, I never negotiate. I don't like negotiation. I leave that to other people. And then after we've engaged, you hear them say, actually, I realize I'm always negotiating. And I've just been denying myself the opportunity to create better outcomes for myself just because I've been denying it. And actually, if you look at the word negotiation, right? The word negotiation, if you break it down, nego, and then otheo. Negothio. Negothio, Right. In Spanish, neg means not. Otheo means pleasure. Negocio means not fun. So if you look at the derivative of the word negotio, which is business, it means it's not fun. And so of course, it's had a bad rap, and of course it will continue to have a bad rap because it's very derivative. Came from this sense of an arduous task, Something that's just not fun.

That's incredible. It makes so much sense. And that's. Right. I mean, even when you think about just English and negative. Right. And I'm wondering, because you have a background in psychology, too, I'm wondering if we kind of implicitly pick up on that and we have these associations because we can think about tough conversations that didn't go well. Everybody has those stories. But even that implicit level of something that has neg being something negative, I think that has to be picked up on implicitly to some level, too.

Yeah, for sure. This is learned behavior, right? We pick it up. I haven't done the research into it, Kwame, to be honest. And it's probably something I am interested in going a little bit deeper in, but I'm interested in finding out, where do we learn the frameworks for our negotiation? As children, I remember growing up, I remember seeing so my parents. I'm of Nigerian heritage. And I remember when I was younger, aunties and uncles coming over from Nigeria. And I remember going, they have this culture of always negotiating for prices, right? It's natural. You go to the market and you know you're going to get a sack of potatoes and you negotiate the price. And I remember one of my aunties taking me to a Marks and Spencer's, which is like a department store, and she went and she bought three jumpers. And you can imagine my embarrassment when she went to the counter and she starts trying to negotiate with a checkout girl for three jumpers at a department store. And the woman was like, no, sorry, madam, that's the price. And she was trying to negotiate the price. And I was thinking, oh, my goodness. So my earliest exposure to negotiation was in these embarrassing situations, but something must have stuck.

Yeah, that's so fascinating, because different countries have different cultures of negotiation, right? And yeah, I mean, my family from the Caribbean, we had those experiences, too. I'm like, dad, that's not how it works here. It doesn't work that way. And the thing is, we're always picking up these. These lessons from childhood because sometimes it will lead us to lean in and have these conversations. So even in those situations where we might have been embarrassed, we're still saying, okay, this is what can be done. There's no harm in trying. But other times it might be, hey, children are meant to be seen, not heard. You need to stay quiet. So you kind of learned silence throughout life, too. Maybe you're a bigger kid who is bigger than everybody else. And so your negotiation style is, I'm bigger. I'm going to take that toy that you want. And so you adopt a more dominant style because it worked for you. And so it's interesting to see that a lot of times we just are passively absorbing these methodologies, and then they become crystallized in adulthood, and we don't recognize that there is an opportunity to shift to something that could work better for us in different circumstances.

Yeah, definitely. Agree.

Yeah. Well, this is great. Well, we've been talking about negotiation and emotional intelligence in negotiation. So what does that look like for somebody at high levels having difficult conversations, maybe negotiating deals? What does it look like to be an emotionally intelligent negotiator?

So we start off with what we call these seven principles of emotionally intelligent negotiation. Because in the corporate world, people need frameworks, right? They need to understand it can't just be something that has an ephemeral sense to it. It needs to be rooted in some kind of framework. And so for us, the seven principles are based on observations and hypotheses that we have seen that happen in everyday life. And one of the key things about, for me, teaching emotional intelligence negotiation is it must feel natural to you. It must be something that you confuse with your natural communicative DNA style. Not, I don't want it to send you to reference books to go and do loads and loads of reading where you become really knowledgeable on negotiation, but it doesn't feel natural to you. So emotional intelligence, for me is about taking this and making it part of your DNA. So when we look at the seven principles, the first principle is based upon observations. As I said at the very beginning of the conversation, when two people come together to negotiate and there seems to be this sense of combat take place, right? Yeah. Yes. Let's go. We're going to negotiate. And you see it in the trainings. I'm sure you've seen it, right, when you say, okay, guys, we're going to negotiate. And they're like, right, and you can see the. The Alphas rubbing their hands together and kind of looking to see who they're going to take down. So based on that first principle is that your counterpart is not your enemy. We kind of really pin that in. We make sure we underline that and we say that when you don't, now, it doesn't mean your counterpart is your friend, but your counterpart is not your enemy. And if you start from that as a start point, you're opening yourselves up to many different. A different set of outcomes than if you start as your counterpart being your enemy. So that's the first principle. The second principle is based upon what we call naive realism, or the boomerang effect, right? So if I tell you, hey, Kwame, listen, you've got to do this, you've got to do this. This is a great deal. This is going to be great for you. And something inside you just makes you think how Tony seems to be really into this, and he doesn't really know me that well, so I'm going to push back. There's something about this that I'm just going to push back. So that's the boomerang effect, right? The deeper I dig in, the deeper you dig in on your side. On the opposite, even if the deal is good, you'll turn around and say, no, I'm not interested. I don't want to know. And the other effect is the naive realism, which is where you and I look at exactly the same facts, but we come up with totally different ideas. So I think you're crazy, because why wouldn't you come to the same conclusions as me based on this fact? So the second principle is seek to understand, not to convince. If I tried to convince you, all you're going to do is you're going to put up a wall. Today I'm working with a group of entrepreneurs, and it's a mixed group, and we're just about to start the group in September, and somebody sent a message. One of the people who were organizing sent a message and said, hey, listen, we've got men and women in this group. Should separate them and have a women's only group. And he put it in the general chat. And then somebody then said, I don't think it's a good idea. And then someone else said, well, I think it might be a good idea because here's some information to back up why I think it's a good idea. And I could see where this was going. So I immediately contacted him outside of the group and said, look, I can see where this is going. Both parties are going to dig in and we're not going to get to the actual why of what we're trying to achieve. So that's seek to understand, not to convince. The third principle is based upon when you're negotiating, we have this desire to say, right, let's get straight into it, let's do the deal. This is what I want. And here are a list of the reasons why you should give me what I want. And we forget about that important step of creating value. And I've heard you talk about this many, many times, Kwame. So our third principle is create value before capturing value. The fourth principle, we're talking about emotional intelligence negotiation. So it's impossible to have a conversation with somebody without taking into context what role the emotions are playing in this conversation. So check out how you're feeling, check out how you're, the way you're feeling, how that might be influencing the situation. How is the other person feeling, and how might that be influencing the situation? There's this beautiful concept that I love. It takes, it's easy to say, but it take a lifetime, I'm sure, to work on it. It's 3D negotiation where in a negotiation I am aware of how I feel. I have an awareness of how Kwame feels. And in real time, I take myself out as if I'm watching a movie. And I look down, I look at both of us interacting. And in real time, I can make adjustments so that we can change the outcome of the conversation. That takes a real skill. But that's review the emotional state of the negotiation. Fifth principle. This will mean a lot to you, I know, is this is our desire to come in and be really. And just go for one thing or two things and say, that's what I'm negotiating, and forget about all the other stuff, leaving real value on the table. So we say never become over invested in one specific outcome. Principle number six, we thought about this for a long time when we were coming up with this one. But it's always leave your counterpart feeling better than you found them. Even if you don't get the deal, you want to leave them with the sense that they negotiated with somebody who was true, firm and assertive and fair. Because Those four adjectives may come back to you in the future and allow someone else to negotiate without even knowing your name just because they know that that's the adjectives that somebody else has used to describe. So always leave them feeling better than you found them. And then the last principle is, once you've understood one to six, you then know that negotiation opportunities are everywhere. And once you've gone through these and you really make these part of your DNA, you start looking for these situations. You start looking and there is where the sweet spot happens. Because at that point, you lose your fear to negotiate and you flip it and you now look forward to having negotiations.

Oh, this is so good, Tony. Okay, so first let me recap this. Tell me if I got it right. And then I want to have some fun by at the end with this. This is great. So number one, counterpart is not your enemy. Number two, seek to understand, not convince. Number three, create value before capturing value. Number four, review the emotional state of the negotiators. Number five, never become in too invested, over invested in one outcome. Number six, always leave the counterpart feeling better than you found them. And number seven, you'll start to recognize negotiation opportunities are everywhere.

Absolutely.

Okay, cool. Let's have some fun. Because I think what's great is that everybody listening can recognize the value in this. And I think what's even more that could be something that could be even more illustrative is that if we consider the inverse, we'll recognize how often we see that. So number one, counterpart is your enemy. That all the time.

Right.

And we recognize that leads to a lot of bad deals. First, I'm in this conversation to convince you I don't need to understand you, you need to understand me. And then hopefully at the end of the conversation, you'll be as enlightened as me. And then you'll see that I'm right. Right. And then number three, capture value.

Cool.

I see what you have. I'm going to take that. I'm not going to open myself up. Not going to be creative, not going to ask questions. No, I see what I want. I'm going to take it. Number four, I'm not going to consider emotions at all. Emotions are soft. There's no point in having emotions in business. It's about the numbers. What did the numbers say? That's what we're going to do. Forget the emotions. Number six, I'm going to become incredibly invested in one narrow outcome in this negotiation. We only have one path to victory, my friend, and it is my way. And we're just going to bully through it. And number six, leave the counterpart broken and confused after the interaction. And then I only see negotiations as transactional. So it's just business. Only business. Right. And when we flip it, we can see. My goodness, it's funny, but it's everywhere. And now we can see very clearly why some of these negotiations go so poorly.

That's so superb. I've never looked at it like that. With your permission, I'm going to take that. Yes, please. Yeah, yeah. Somehow I'm going to fuse that into my teachings and learnings. That's fantastic. See, this is why I wanted to have these conversations. You know, for me, this is just beautiful. This is fantastic. I love having these conversations. You know, when there's something that you really love and you're really passionate about, and then you find somebody else who has an equal passion or even a greater passion and has a skill level in a different area that's even greater than your own. I mean, I just feel like a kid in a candy shop. And this. This is. I love these conversations.

Thank you. Likewise. I mean, that. That's why I do it, you know, always an advocate for. For more people joining the podcast ranks. So, listen, man, I know you could do it if you wanted to. And also, when it comes to the trainings, I did this almost by accident. I recognized in one of the trainings, it was a virtual training. There was a little bit of a dip in the energy when I was getting some of the principles. So I was like, okay. I would ask questions, say, hey, what do you think about this? Why is this valuable? Great. And then I was like, you know what? I'm not feeling the energy I want to feel. I was like, all right, everybody, bad ideas only. I want you to. In this very context of this narrow negotiation example, I want you to give each other the worst advice ever. What are the wrong things to do here? And it was hilarious.

Excellent. Excellent.

Yeah, yeah. It's just a fun way to mix it up, because it's like, okay, I can remember the good things to do, but then it becomes almost like a comical reminder of what not to do. And then when we stop laughing, then we say, oh, wait a second. I've definitely done that, man. No, this is.

Made a note of that as kids.

Really? This is great, man. I appreciate this. I know the listeners are going to get a lot out of this, so I want to make sure that I give you a really, really clear opportunity to let the listeners know about the name of your company, how they can work with you and how to get in touch.

Thank you. Thank you, Kwame. So it's ein, which is stands for Emotional Intelligent Negotiation. I'm based in Barcelona, but I travel anywhere to. I work with companies who leadership team C suites. I work with companies who are looking to build frameworks for having tough conversations within their companies. I work with leaders who are struggling to articulate their ideas in an effective way to their teams. You can find me on LinkedIn. I'm connected on mostly. That's probably the best place to find me on LinkedIn. I'm really not that good at social media, so, yeah, Instagram is a kind of as a hodgepodge. And Twitter, I'm not on Twitter, but I think my home base is Instagram. If people there. So if you're interested in getting in contact with me to help work with your teams, help building some frameworks for communicating with each other using emotional intelligence, then I would love the opportunity to.

Work with you, Tony. This was a masterclass, my friend. I really appreciate you joining us today.

Thank you. Thank you, Kwame. Thank you very much.

Congratulations. You've just joined an elite club by listening to a full episode. You're now officially on the Negotiate Anything team. So welcome aboard. What most team members do is they subscribe to the podcast because that allows them to automatically get the latest episodes of the show. The best things in life lie on the other side of difficult conversations. Keep learning, keep practicing, and keep getting better. Your relationships will improve, your career will soar, and you'll have the confidence you need to get the most out of these crucial conversations. Again, thank you for joining the team. We're excited to have you, and I will see you in the next episode. I'll catch you later.