Empowering Employees to Confront Toxic Behavior with Catherine Mattice

Hey, I'm Kwame Christian, and you are about to step into the world of Negotiate Anything, the number one negotiation podcast in the world, where we teach you how to make difficult conversations easier while getting more of what you want in the process. Each episode is packed with practical tips and strategies from the experts. We delve into negotiation, conflict resolution, and leadership skills that are crucial in both business and in life. Whether you're closing a deal, managing a team, or navigating personal relationships, Negotiate Anything provides you with the tools you need to succeed. Our conversations are real, relatable, and most importantly, rooted in practicality. So if you're ready to transform your conversations and elevate your negotiation skills, join me on Negotiate Anything. Subscribe and listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify.

Or wherever you love to listen.

Let's make every conversation a winning negotiation.

Katherine, thanks for joining us today.

Thank you for having me.

It is my pleasure. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Yep. Civility Partners has been in business for 14 years. I'm very proud of that, realizing we're creeping up on 15 years. And civility Partners is a consulting firm focused on turning around toxic behaviors and toxic culture. So while there are many culture consultants out there, that is our niche. And I started this business pretty quickly out of graduate school. I was a director of hr working in an environment where there was one toxic person. And because I was in hr, I could see got a nice view of how he destroyed the organization person by person. Ended up getting my master's degree while I was working there and did all of my graduate research on workplace bullying. And so I have a super niche level of knowledge around that very particular phenomenon. So yes.

Oh, this is exciting. And kudos to you. At 14 years, when you look at statistics in entrepreneurship, surviving a year is a big accomplishment. So kudos. And I know you're. You're focused on scaling, too. I want to make sure that you can shout that out because that's really exciting.

Yeah. Thank you. I'll just say we had a. I had a hard lesson earlier in the year around just how unable we were going to be able to scale or how not ready we were to scale. I was working with a partner and her and I were bringing in sales like crazy, and it was great. But then we couldn't support that on the inside of the company. And so it was a blessing in disguise to really just. You can read books about scaling and all of that, but to really have that slap in the face like oh, now I get it. I really get it. So the whole. The company is looking very different, and we've just. Everyone's firing on all cylinders to really. Nobody wants to go back to what it was. All that chaos. Yes. Let's have process. And, yeah, it's super fun. We're having a good time.

This is great. And you could see me laughing as you were saying this. Not at. Not laughing at your pain. I'm laughing with your pain because we've gone through the same thing. It's so tough. And the books make it sound kind of not easy, but manageable. But I think really, there should be a chapter in every book called, like, it's going to hurt, and you can't avoid it.

So.

So kudos to you. Congratulations. And I'm excited to get into this because a lot of times when we think about dealing with bullies in the workplace, really, the advice is essentially, how do you slay the dragon? But I think what's really interesting is that you come in and you're saying, how do I coach the dragon? And so I think that's a really fascinating paradigm shift because you're working with the person who's considered a bully or a difficult person. So what is it that made that your focus?

Yeah, so there's a lot of villainizing these individuals, and I get that. I was at the receiving end of that behavior, and I think my journey helps. I learned about this person I was working with through the lens of academia. I was not in therapy. I wasn't in a Facebook group where everybody's complaining about the bully they work with. I was learning about it from a very logical place, which is how I function anyways. And so I learned a lot about the context that this person's in. The CEO's allowing this behavior. Like, we can't. Well, they're a psychopath, and I know it feels like that. And some of them are. I have a few of them. But in general, they're really good people, and they really want themselves to be successful, but also the team and the organization, and they're. Which is ironic. And again, I know if you're at the receiving end of this behavior, it certainly does feel like they're a psychopath. But they're not waking up in the morning excited to make your life miserable. They're excited to see the organization succeed. And so I joke. They're my delicate little flowers or little glass animals, because what's happened is they've learned to fight real hard, to look competent, and when somebody makes them Feel like I'm going to look incompetent because of your mistake, or you're so smart that. Or the leadership really likes you, and that threatens my competence. They start to lash out so they can be tamed. And it's about coaching and helping them recognize the impact they have on the people around them and then giving them some strategies. So I fell into it, just by nature of getting my master's degree and focusing on bullying and just really trying to find all the ways that I can solve that problem. And coaching's one of them.

I love this. This is really helpful. And now for all of those people who don't identify as a bully, do not turn off. Okay, we're going to. We're going to help you out, too.

About you too.

Yeah, we'll get into you too. But I love this point because this is really, really helpful. Again, like you said, we vilify these people. We say, oh, you're awful, and our. Our lot in life is to deal with you. But instead you're saying, hey, at their core, they're genuinely generally good people and they want to be successful. They want the team to be successful, but they've learned to fight in order to protect their competence and be seen that way. And it's in their mind. They might not feel as though they're being aggressive. Right. But the world perceives them as the aggressor. And I think that can really help us approach these conversations with them with a little bit more empathy, understanding, and compassion, which could go a long way when it comes to dealing with these really tough conversations.

Absolutely. If you go into it feeling like they intend to harm you, then it's a lot harder to talk to them about it. Right. But if you recognize they're actually good people, you gotta find the right way to talk to them, because they're not. They don't like emotions. They're not, you know, the only emotion they're showing is the anger. Other emotions, they don't kind of believe in those at work. Right. So but just. Yeah. Recognizing. They just don't understand the impact they're having. So hopefully that makes it a little bit easier to talk to them. They're not there to hurt you. They just don't know they're hurting you.

Exactly. I think that's a really, really great point. And again, when we try to. When we fall into this trap of mind reading and we're saying, yes, this, they are intending to do this, it makes it more hurtful for us and doesn't improve our performance. In the process. So I think that's an important thing to keep in mind. And then can you address the fact which I think might be shocking to a lot of people, but let's go into the reality that a lot of these people that we classify as difficult do not believe that they're being difficult. They don't even recognize that. Can you go deeper into that one?

Yeah. So. Because they've been living in this world of fighting their whole lives. And just to give you some examples, all of my coaching clients have a story. One woman came from China as a probably 18 year old. She didn't speak English. She was the sixth child, she was a daughter. She literally, literally grew up on the crumbs of the children before her growing up in China. And she came here, didn't speak English and worked her way through getting a PhD and she's the quality control manager at a pharmaceutical company. Or sometimes it's just surroundings. One guy I coached grew up. He loved to say, I grew up in this side of Chicago. So he just had this tough exterior that he had honed in on. So when I'm working with them, it's helping them recognize you don't have to fight anymore. People think you're competent. Look at where you're at. I'm coaching executives and VPs and C suite. So they're. That's where it comes from. They've just developed this mode of operation around fighting. And I can't teach them emotional intelligence, I feel. And that might be a little bit of a bonus if they do learn some. But it's very focused on strategies. So when you talk to someone, if you're a leader, especially addressing someone who bullies in your workplace, of course they're going to justify and deny you want to talk to them about his perception. So don't get in a fact battle with them where you're saying, well, I heard at the meeting yesterday that you did this and this, or at the meeting I saw you do this and this. They don't understand. So you're. That's futile. What you say instead is the perception is that you come across as abrasive. And that's a lot of people's perception. Getting a steady stream of complaints about how abrasive you are. And when they justify and deny you, I don't know, I'm not in every meeting you're in. I'm just telling you the one fact that I know is several people perceive you this way and we need you to change that perception of you. And so it Becomes more about that then you're broken. Stop hurting people.

Katherine, this is great. This is a really strong start because the focusing on that term perception is a really strong strategy because it detaches from this you're right, I'm wrong type of conversation that is doomed to go nowhere because we can both agree on what has occurred, but then everybody can disagree on the perception of it too. And so by being very intentional about the words that you use when you're having these conversations, it makes it less likely for the conversation to spiral out of control and be unproductive. And I feel. And you tell me if I'm wrong on this. I feel like a lot of people would be surprised that people think that they are difficult. Is that what you see too?

Yeah. Oh, yeah. They don't get it. And that's where part of the coaching is working with. I interview people who work with them. I'm not on a fact finding mission like HR investigating h harassment complaint. Right. I just ask basically, tell me about your perception of this person. And so I'm reading fully in perception. I don't. And so then I take all those notes, I move them all into themes. It's often a 20 page document. And I read it to them and it's like theme number one. You shame people in public. And then here are the words of the people I interviewed. And of course, they were removing identifying information, but they don't know who said what. But you can't argue with the fact that you're perceived as shaming people in public because I interviewed 15 people and they all agree that you do that. And some of them try to get smart. They'll say, well, that's their perception. Everybody has their own reality. And it's. Yeah, but you have 15 people sharing a reality. That's all their perception. So it's a reality at this point because 15 people see it that way. So it's just. Yeah. Like really pushing back. And so that's. That call is hard for me and them. It's not a fun call. But what I see is the. That's where they really start to go, oh my gosh, I didn't know it was this bad. Help me. I don't want to be seen this way. I wouldn't want to work for me. So it's just that mirror is super powerful.

Yeah, it's. I'm wondering, tell me what you think about this. Tell me if this resonates and I might be completely wrong. So tell me if I'm wrong too. Right. I feel like, part of the reason why it might be surprising for many people who get this label is that in their mind, let's use the example that you gave. They still see themselves as the small child that everybody forgets who's eating the crumbs. And they are. They got to where they were because they've been fighting and fighting and now all of a sudden they, in their mind, they always see themselves as the underdog and now they haven't. Like, their perception of their selves hasn't advanced as quickly as their career and success has. So now they look like a bully because they're fighting when they don't really need to.

That's exactly right. So I. A lot of coaching calls are around, you're not the competence crusader. Look where you're at. Educate people, use your powers for good. And I just want to add too, again, they're in a context of their organization, right? So the other piece is they've been getting rewarded for that behavior. I'm not coaching a low level person in a retail store. These are high level people. The organization invests in them and coaching because they want to keep them because they are valuable. So it's usually the narrative is they've been acting that way for a really long time. And not only it's been ignored, it's been getting rewarded, they've been getting promotions, they have a team, they're all this stuff. And usually what happens is HR has been trying to convince the C suite, we gotta address this. The C suite's afraid to poke at it because they don't want that. It's a funny thing, like, let's go tell that person they can't be that way. And they're just gonna say, I quit. I wanna be a bully somewhere else. It's like such an unrealistic fear that CEOs have. But usually there's some sort of catalyst. The seventh person finally quit and the CEOs like, all right, seven's too many. It's a shame. It's not just one or two. But yeah, it's. Or we finally, we got a third harassment complaint or somebody else who's really valuable quit and cited that person as the reason. So what I found is there's some catalysts where this CEO is finally going, okay, I get it, we do have to address this now. So it's hard because they've been rewarded. And here I come. You can't act that way anymore.

Hello, my friends. Before we get back to today's episode.

I want to ask you a question. Have you ever wondered how to elevate your team's negotiation game and how you can help the folks on your team.

Have better difficult conversations?

At the American Negotiation Institute, we offer transformative keynotes and workshops tailored to empower.

Professionals with top tier negotiation and conflict resolution skills.

Whether it's a keynote for your next event or hands on training for your.

Team, we've got you covered.

Don't just negotiate. Master the art with the American Negotiation Institute. Click the link in the description to find out more.

Elevate, negotiate and succeed. This is so fascinating because we can see this from so many different angles, right? Because we have it from you as the coach. Having this difficult conversation with this person, that's a tough conversation to have. And we're, we're seeing the skills that you bring into the conversation to be persuasive. But then we also have the people within the company, they have to have this conversation with the bully. How do I manage myself with this bully? How do I set boundaries and advocate for myself and things like that? But then we also have people internally in my BHR or other employees going to the C suite, the CEO, whoever it happens to be and says, this person is a problem, we need you to do something. You have the authority. I don't have the authority, so you do something. That's another difficult conversation. So let's get deeper into that one too. They are apprehensive and we've already outlined why. So if somebody is saying, I'm going to my boss to try to get my boss to address this toxic behavior, what is the best way to go about having that conversation with the leader?

A couple of thoughts. One is think about what kind of leader you have. If you have kind of an emotional, visionary, charismatic type of a leader, maybe they'd be more interested in the feelings around it. So then conversation is more like, there's this perception, keep using that. Because we can't argue facts. We're not doing an investigation. It's just there's a perception among the team that our manager doesn't like us. Our manager is abrasive or whatever. We're insert the words and it's hurtful because. So that's one option. Some leaders are super data driven. So you might say something more like, hey, I know that Frank brings in a million dollars in sales. But also we've had a lot of turnover in our sales department. Shrm, the Society for Human Resources Management, says that costs between 30 and 50% of someone's salary. So if we do the math, maybe he's not bringing in a million dollars because he's costing us money.

So.

So you could try that data. The other piece is maybe try to steer them. Could be, look, technically, this is not the difference between workplace bullying and harassment is that one is focused on a protected characteristic and the other is not. So I always joke, if you want to be a bully, just bully everyone. And then you're well within your legal rights to do that. And then. But if you can highlight that one wrong move and a woman, person of color could sue. So try to tie it as much as you can to the legal liability. So those are my three options for you.

It's so funny, Katherine, as you were saying that put on my lawyer ears. And I was like, oh, man, you're right. So, like, it's so funny. You're absolutely right. If you bully one person is a problem, just bully everyone if you're safe. Wow, what a twisted world we live in. That's hilarious. No, these are really great. So let's recap this. So if you have a more of an emotional, like, visionary leader, we're going to focus on the perception, and then we're going to talk about how this person's behavior makes you feel.

And.

And then we could really tie that to productivity as well. If everybody has low satisfaction, low engagement because of a toxic coworker, that hurts productivity. Really clear connection there. Then if the person's more data driven, focused only on the numbers. Let's bring in the numbers. Cool. So the number that they're going to focus on. I love the business development idea. Is going to be that big number. What is the revenue they bring in? We don't talk about the costs that are associated with that person. And that's often what is not considered, especially from a CEO, because those are a little bit more intangible. And then also confirmation bias would lead you to take the path of least resistance. I don't want to have this tough conversation. They're a monster. You're just. You're telling me. I know. And now I have to do that work too. So the confirmation bias will lead us to the path of least resistance. So I love the data. That's great. And then scaring them. As a lawyer, I love scaring people. It's a joke. But you were absolutely right. I think with one of the things that's interesting is that the. As humans, we crave certainty, and that unknown is absolutely terrifying. And you just leave them with a what if? You don't even need to finish the sentence. So what if they say this to the wrong person. And honestly, Catherine, like, that's a big one, too. Because my last book, how to have Difficult Conversations About Race, I approached it as. As balanced as I could with the topic. And I said, hey, as a person of color, you'll have to have these conversations. As an ally, you'll have to have these conversations.

And.

And if you are not a person of color, you will likely be accused, whether rightly or wrongly. And so that's a scary thing. And so helping people to have those conversations, but making it really clear that the perception is different. Because I was working with the police one time doing a mediation, and I did an analysis. I saw that, hey, actually, legally speaking, they did the right thing, and they were trying to use that fact to defend themselves. And so I told them. I was like, all right, cool. So let's say you get pulled over and the cop is a jerk to you. What do you think? They say, yeah, I think the cop is a jerk. Let's do the exact same scenario. Now. You are a person of color, and the cop is a jerk to you. What do you think? Oh, I think they're racist now. Right. And so when you ask it in that question and pose that situation, it becomes really clear the danger that you're in.

Yeah, yeah. I'm gonna have to check out this book.

Yeah, yeah. It's all right. It's okay.

And that's the thing about perceptions. And I think as businesses, we do get so focused on the facts and the numbers and the intangibles, you can't. Turnover isn't a line item on your P and L because it's really hard to understand exactly what it costs, but you can make some estimates. And that's what I tell. I speak a lot to hr, and it's. Yeah, you get a hostile work environment complaint. You do an investigation. Of course you should do that. But there's so much more beyond. This isn't law and order. This is a workplace made of people. And so the facts are important, but so is how people feel about what's going on. And even if it comes back that there's no findings, yeah, the person's kind of a jerk, but it's not related to race or gender, what have you. They still make people feel like it's a hostile work environment, even if technically it's not. Right. So I think HR and business in general, we. So, yeah, I think biz. And you see that paradigm shift, we're moving more to things like engagement. And then Black Lives Matter happened And we're starting to look more at inclusivity. So what the shift from people is cogs in a wheel is moving, but we have a lot of a long way to go.

Agreed. And now let's shift to what I think a lot of people are looking for with this episode. They're like, okay, that's great. I like empathizing with the bully. And yes, the CEO has a hard time, but Catherine, I have a hard time. I'm the one dealing with this bully. I have no authority over them. I can't just force them to be nice. And so for somebody who is having regular run ins with a colleague who is displaying these bullying types of behaviors, what advice do you have for them to make those difficult conversations a bit easier?

So much advice. The first thing I'll say is, the minute somebody makes you feel like you're being disrespected or, sorry, nobody makes you feel anything. The minute you feel disrespected by somebody or they're overstepping, address it. Because those little moments of incivility are. They escalate over time. So what happens is somebody who engages in incivility, it starts to become normal for them. Nobody speaks up against it, and it just starts to become how they function. So the earlier you can do it, the better. And there's tons of research that's the case. They respect you, that you stood up for yourself. They see you as competent, you're good to go, versus if you're listening and feeling like, ash, I've been getting treated this way for a year, three years, or five years. A couple pieces of advice. One is recognize that whatever you feel about it is probably a thousand times worse in your subconscious. And I just really feel the need to tell you to take care of you. See a therapist. Understand that whenever, if and when you leave that organization, all of that you've been hiding or holding in so you could function at work will come down on you like a ton of bricks. So take care of you. Find some outlets in terms of in the moment at work. Questions are one of my favorite ways to kind of stop people in their tracks. So you could say something like, do you know that you're yelling? Or did you notice that when you rolled your eyes and made a joke yesterday at the meeting that the whole tone of the meeting changed. So those are good ones. Do you mean to be abrasive? Because you are being that way right now. Questions are one of my favorites. The other piece of advice is rally the troops. Right. So I'm not Saying, go around and talk crap about this person and try to build a mutiny. But recognize that if you're going to go to hr, the more of you complaining, the better. So if you can get a group of people to go to HR to say, look, we all report to this person and this, we all feel this way, it needs to change. That's a much different conversation than I feel this way. And because unless you call hostile work environment, HRS may not really have the resources or authority to really dive in there and help you. So I'm not saying falsely call that either. But yeah, recognize HR has to report to the C suite and they kind of need a business case. So if you can help them make that business case, that's going to be more likely that they can help you.

Wow, this is a masterclass. Okay, great. So let's start from the top here. So I love the fact that you made it so clear that as soon as we feel this, we have to address it. And you're absolutely correct. Because now, does the length of time between an accusation and the event necessarily diminish the validity of the accusation? No. However, it does diminish the persuasive value of the accusation because the simple retort is, if this was such a problem, Katherine, you would have mentioned it two years ago. Right. And so it undermines the argument. And so even though it doesn't feel good to have to address it and we'd rather like stop and think through it. Hey, no, we, recognizing that there is some urgency and it doesn't necessarily need to be in that very specific moment. Take a few minutes, take an hour, take a day. But notice, once you go beyond that 24 hours, then I think the credibility shot clock starts to tick and you start to get dinged for that. So that is great. And also, people don't address the benefits of addressing these conversations because sometimes if somebody is using force to try to get one over on you, sometimes the only thing they respect is that force. And we're not saying that we're going to engage in a firefight, but what we're doing is we're going to say, hey, I recognize this, I didn't like it. And I'm going to let you know, and this is how we can work better going forward. And people do respect that. And sometimes you have to put your foot down in order to get that respect. And it's not, again, not easy, but it's something that we have to do and we have to come to the fact that, hey, listen, at the end of the day. We're social primates. We're. We're just like, we just happen to be a little bit smarter. Right. And we will respond in similar ways. And sometimes you have to put your foot down and make a stand.

Yeah, I want. Can I share a quick story about that?

Please do.

It's so perfect. So when I was finishing out graduate school, I worked at a new organization. It was a startup tech firm. And of course, everybody knew I was going through grad school focusing on workplace only. And one of my coworkers, he would talk to me about, well, don't you think our boss is a bully? I mean, you know about bullying, Isn't he? And I'm like, assertive, but I wouldn't say he's a bully. But my coworker was really feeling picked on. And then comes the day where sites turn to me. What happened was I made a huge mistake with the client. And the CEO sent an email to me. And for whatever reason, cc'd many people in the office. And he really chastised me. And I thought, it's now or never, right?

I.

If I don't speak up, I'll become my coworker. He's going to see me as weak, and he'll start. So what I did was hit reply to all. I said, there are three options I propose to solve this problem. One, two, three. And if you'd like to talk about which option to. For me to select, let's do that in your office with the door closed. And I hit and. And he comes out of his office within five seconds and yells. Yells across what? Great email, Cat. Way to put the hammer down. And he said, that's exactly what I'm talking about. I was like, if we're gonna everybody, okay, let's do that. Let's involve everyone. And of course, he went after me again. So that's a perfect example of make it happen, do or die.

And oh, this is a master. This is good. So first of all, I hope the audience is giving you a standing ovation because you need that. That's really great. And now I want to go deeper into this case study, Katherine. Cause it's perfect. When you were drafting that email and when your finger was hovering over the send button, what were you feeling?

You know what? I was feeling empowered. Because my previous job was where that bully was that got me into what I do. And I knew the path I was going to end up going down if I didn't hit send. So it was a feeling of like, he might fire me. But I'm good with that. I'm not staying. And that's. That's a piece of this, too. So I have a book called Stand Up, Speak Out Against Workplace Bullying. It's testimonials of people who have been through really ugly situations worse than mine, and the one commonality they all have. And just to back up, we, my research team and I were really wanting stories of success. Like, I consider my success, myself successful. I was bullied, I was depressed, I got fired, happened to still be getting my master's degree, and look at me now. I made a life out of it that I love. And I wanted to know, are there other people like me out there? And what. Why did they feel successful? And the one common theme in all of those stories, they all kind of go like this, down, down, it's getting worse, it's getting worse. And they all hit some version of kind of a rock bottom. And that moment they go, forget this. I'm not doing this anymore. And so it's that decision to take their power back. And it was something different for everyone. One woman said, it was like last draw, I stood up from my desk, I had this big giant thing of keys for the facilities, and I dropped them on my boss's desk all dramatic, like, I quit, and I stormed out. And that was her moment of taking her life back. Would you consider her successful? No. She left her job, but mentally, psychologically, she was successful. And so you have to define what does success look like. Am I going to try to go up against this bully and try to sue them and win? That's probably not going to be successful either, right? So another woman, she worked for the Coast Guard, she's a professor at the academy, and her moment was to decide, I'm black, I'm lesbian, I'm have a PhD, I'm in a male dominated world where people are afraid of the LGBTQ community. I'm going to be the Martin Luther King of the Coast Guard Academy. She's still there fighting, but now it's her decision, right? She's not a victim. So anyway, big tangent, but tangent.

This is right on track. Katherine. This is great because essentially what we're recognizing is that at some point you reach a point where you're saying, enough is enough. And we, and I think this is a really important point, we are willing at that moment to accept the consequences of the decision that we make, Right? Because we have to come to the realization that not every difficult conversation we have is going to go well. People listen to the podcast to Increase their likelihood of success while recognizing it's not possible to be successful in these conversations all the time.

Right.

And once you start to get comfortable with the idea that this might not go well and I will still be okay, that's where you actually get power from. And you get to a point where it's like, regardless of the outcome, I'm doing something that is for me. And if things turn go well and I get my way, that's fantastic. But even if I don't, at least I can look in the mirror and respect the decision that I make.

Exactly. Because if you. That whole empowerment, my. I love everything you're saying. Understand that there may be a consequence, but you're going to feel good about it. So in that moment, I hit send. Maybe I'm going to be fired. I'll be no worse off. It'll be. I'm not going to stay here if he's going to bully me. So it'll be good if I. Or I might quit if it continues. So, yeah, being just that ownership of your life. And unfortunately, what I see happen is a lot of people, the bullying goes on for years and we're tied to our jobs. Maybe you've been working there for longer than this person and so you feel like this is my job. I'm not going to let you kick me out. But the more you do that, the more power they have. And so really taking ownership of, like, if I left, what really would happen? Or maybe I should go start to look for another job. It just. It takes such a toll on you. Lots of research that you can develop PTSD from work just like a soldier when they go to war. So it's just understand how important it is that you take ownership and address it. But you'll be better off.

Absolutely. And let's wrap up with this last point, too, because I like to keep these episodes at about 30 minutes and.

My audience is like really 90 minutes an hour. Eight hours. Let's go.

We can just keep going. I love this. I love this. And so I feel like one of the best things people can do to prepare themselves for these difficult conversations within the workplace is doing things like preparing your resume and strengthening up your online presence and start to network and start to see what other options are out there so you can start to recognize that there is life after this, regardless of how that goes. And so I want to talk to you about the preparation process, but the unorthodox preparation process that kind of just gears you up for survival regardless of the outcome.

Yeah, that and that's that taking power back, right. To recognize I'm going to start having, I'm going to start pushing back and it could go really wrong for me, but I'm owning that consequence or outcome because I'm prepared for it if that's what happens. My first book called Back Off, I actually have a whole, it's probably like six or seven pages of just a worksheet of really thinking about what are the potential outcomes When I start pushing back, where's the boundary that I'm going to draw where if X, Y and Z happens, I'm just going to quit? What do I really want to have happen out of this conversation? So just really taking some time to journal about it and absolutely just being really prepared for the potential outcome. But then when that outcome happens, for example, let's say you get fired, it would have been your decision because you were prepared for it and you'll feel a lot better about it. So yeah, love that.

Love it. This is great, Katherine, I really, really appreciate you coming on the podcast. And before you go, can you remind the listeners about your company, your books and how they can get in touch with you?

Sure. I'm all over the Internet, just Google my name and on pages of Google. Our company is called Civility Partners. Again we focus on turning around Toxic behav and culture. I've got three books out. Back Off, Stand Up, Speak out and Seeking Civility and Back Offs. Actually I'm working on a, a new version so that, that's awesome. Yeah. Find me on LinkedIn. I've got a ton of courses on LinkedIn learning and would love to see you there watching those. A lot of what we talked about today and more is there. So thanks so much for having me. This was really fun.

Yeah, my pleasure. And listeners will put links to everything in the description. Thanks again, Katherine. This was exceptional. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

Now, before you sign off, I have something to tell you that I've never told you before. Just kidding.

I've told you before.

But you should listen to it again. I want you to know about Negotiate Anything Premium. Imagine all of the things that you love about our traditional feed, plus so much more. I know you like our traditional feed because you're at the end of the episode and with Negotiate Anything Premium, you'll get more bonus content you've been asking for, more of the expert insights that you can't get anywhere else and more exclusive behind the scenes access into every conversation. Are you ready to get more of what you want out of your life? Career and every conversation. With Negotiate Anything Premium, you'll have access to more high level, custom designed content and insights giving you the tools you need to negotiate higher salaries, better deals, and better relationships in your life and career. Once I had a listener share that Negotiate Anything helped her to negotiate a $53,000 raise. Could this be you? What would that mean for your life? I've seen firsthand the impact this model has had on my life and the lives of my corporate clients, and I am confident that it can do the same for you. Are you ready to negotiate more of the best things in life?

Click the link in the show notes to learn more. I'll catch you later.