Empowering Women to Advocate and Negotiate with Wies Bratby

Hello, my friends, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. This show is produced by the American Negotiation Institute and with over 5 million downloads and listeners in over 180 countries, listeners just like you have made this the number one negotiation podcast in the world. Hi, my name is Kwame Christian and I am the founder and CEO of the American Negotiation Institute here at A&I we believe that the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And we are passionate about providing you with the best content that will help you to make your difficult conversations easier, both at work and at home. Lastly, I want to remind you that we offer consulting and conduct trainings both virtually and in person all around the world. Our focus is in three main areas. First, negotiation and conflict resolution. Second, leadership. And lastly, diversity, equity and inclusion. Check the link in the description below to learn more about how we could work with you and your team. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview.

Wys, thanks for joining us today.

Oh, I am so happy to be here. Very humbled and very honored. Thank you for having me.

No, it is my pleasure. And listeners, we have been vibing for the last 48 minutes, so we're going to put some of the clips of our earlier conversation at the end of this interview. So check this out. I was excited to chat with you before, but now I'm even more excited. So how about you let the listeners know about yourself and what you do.

So my name is Wies Bradby. It's a funky combination of my very Dutch background. Right. My first name, Wies, and then Bradby is due to my very British husband, have grown up here in the Netherlands, lived across the globe for about a decade, both in Asia and in Switzerland we were for many years. And there I combined my background of being a lawyer. So we were talking about this before right here on this in our earlier chat. So I was a lawyer for many years because I was obsessed with negotiation. That led me to become a lawyer. And then when I left the law, for very good reasons, I went into HR and I combined both those background, right? So the negotiation piece with the HR piece and the fact that I'm a raging feminist together in the work that I do now, which is I run a business called Women in Negotiation Win, where we coach women to negotiate their careers and their salaries and we do that with great big fricking success. Last year, the average salary increase that my winners, as we call them lovingly reported was 93%, which is fairly insane in my book and testament to what can happen when you invest time and energy into this very important life and professional skill. Testament to the great power of a community of women coming together and supporting each other. So I'm incredibly proud of that and I'm having a ton of fun doing it. We talked earlier about hacking life. I really feel like I hack life in getting to do this work.

Yeah, this is great. And also make sure you let them know about your podcast too.

Oh, yes, yes, yes. I have a podcast as well. I should say we have a podcast because Katerina, my dear friend and podcast producer, is the behind all of this. Yeah, the podcast called Winning with these Bradby. And it basically what we do in the sessions that we have is that we have coaching sessions, very intimate coaching sessions that I do with women at various stages in their career that are struggling with various challenges. And I help them in those sessions to overcome those challenges. Right. I help them move forward. And that's proven to be really quite useful for our listeners. We often get feedback of. Yeah. So based on episode four, I did XYZ and that worked out tremendously well, et cetera. It's very practical, very hands on role modeling, basically, of how you can have these challenging conversations at work. It's also a lot of fun actually producing it. So, yeah, there's that.

I love it. Well, let's dive right into what it is that you do because your focus is coaching women. Incredible success rate, listeners. I want to reiterate this 93% success rate that is an A plus on average.

Yeah. Their salaries, it's insane.

Yeah, that's great. That's so important. That's just so encouraging for all of us because it shows that it's doable. Once you have the mindset and skill set and you put it into action, then you can achieve the success that you want. And I think that's really important thing for people to take away.

Yeah. Now I love that you're stressing that. Right. Because it's so true. It started off with me obviously obsessing about the subject in my own life and career. Right. Wanting to negotiate my job offers and the promotions that I made, combining my knowledge of negotiation with in those situations. Right. I was able to get great results for myself. And based on that, my friends and the people around me started asking me for advice. And then they were at least as successful as I was. So I realized it isn't some kind of magical thing that I had been told through all my years as a lawyer and going to law school, et cetera, that it was some kind of special thing, special skill that I had that others didn't. That it was replicable. Right. That others could do it as well. I mean, my results didn't even come near the 93%. I was already really proud when I got a 35% salary increase or whatever. Right. But these results and the consistency of them as well. Right. I think showcases that indeed this is a skill that anyone with the right commitment, because that is important. There's no shortcut. There is no quick and early tip and trick that's going to give you this message. It is hard work, but when you commit, everybody can learn it. Genuinely, everybody can learn it.

So first of all, I agree with everything that you just said and I love everything that you just said. And I realize I might have misunderstood your percentages. So are you saying that 93% of the people who work with you are successful or. The average increase in salary is 93%. Wow. Okay, so there are so many layers to this. Because first of all, shout out to negotiation. Power of negotiation. That's great. But also tell me what you think about this might also suggest chronic underpayment of women in the workplace.

Yeah. Well, we have those numbers, right. We know that across the world, if we're looking at the general pay gap, that it sort of hovers around 20% for white women. If we're extrapolating to women of color, if we're extrapolating to other minorities, the numbers get even more depressing. I get emotional. I get really freaking angry when I think about, I get. Now it goes bumps all over. And not the good kind. Right. Like how hard these women have to work to get equal pay. Right? Yeah, that is a huge issue. I often have women coming to me at the point where they're just incredibly pissed because they've just found out that they have been replaced. For example, they're leaving their job and they're replaced by somebody who gets 50% more, 60% more. We have these things, right. I have women who where the issue isn't necessarily that within their bracket, right. Within the range that they have, that they're that underpaid. They're still within the range. Maybe not at the top end or maybe not even at the median, but they're sort of hovering at the bottom, but they're still within the range. So we can't really say too much, but they should be two levels higher. They've just been not recognized. Right. For what they're capable of doing. They are super underpaid compared to the value that they put out compared to what in real life or in reality they should be on, and that culmination has led to these wild increases, is that we don't just look at the skill of negotiation within your bracket, within the range for your role. Can we get a couple of dozen percentage points more? Right. But what we actually do in the program is raise the ambition, raise the expectation that they have for themselves and their place in the world so that they start jumping or making much bigger jumps. That's where it gets really fun. Because once you start doing that, we're not talking about oyears, 15% more years, 20% more, 30% more now we're talking the doubling or sometimes tripling. We've had women who tripled their salaries in one jump, in one move. Doing that, which is both testament to indeed the potential of taking this particular piece of your career seriously, namely the getting recognition for it. Right. But it's also a testament, of course, to how bad it was before, how they were under appreciated before.

Yeah, this is incredible. It's disheartening, but also encouraging that you're able to do this work. And I think one key word that I want to focus in on is pro. You have a program not because I'm just shouting you out and making sure people who could use your services go to you, but also because implies that there's a process, there is a replicable model that you can put in place. And I think it is fascinating that you started off with ambition, raising their own ambition. Can you go into that piece?

Yeah. To your first point. Right. Yes, there is a program. I basically developed a communication model that covers the entire spectrum from figuring out what do I want, what's my place in this world, what's possible for me, where is the best match with my unique talents, skill set, expertise, all the way to then having the other side see that, understand that them wanting you desperately, being willing to pay whatever it takes to get you on board, negotiating, sort of entering the negotiation room with that spirit on the other side and you being completely confident in your own capacity yourself, and then having that negotiation. Right. All the way to signing. So it's piece of communication. Right. So to say, on that journey is what we cover in the program. And that is intense. That is hardcore. That's 10 weeks. I always say I own your ass for 10 weeks. You're mine. I am not a coach in the traditional sense of. Well, you have all the answers inside yourself. Let me just help you surface them. I am the kind of coach more sort of trainer like this is what you do, this is how you're going to do it. I'll hold your hand, but you're going to do it. And now you can do it yourself. That's what's led to these results. That model works for all women in their career negotiations. So they learn that. It's really training them on that. Like I said, I tell them every step of the way what I need to do. And then the other piece where they have to work really hard is not just internalizing that, learning that, but it's then personalizing that, for lack of a better term, to their specific situation through these homework exercises that I have them do that are pretty intense, but where they have this model that always works, but they make it perfectly fitting their situation. And so that I think is part of everyone's success is that they have kind of a tailor made system for them. And then what's also beautiful about this system is that a year from now or in two years from now, when they are ready for their next step, they can do those exercises again. And then, ta da, they're ready for that new step. Right? It perfectly fits that new situation so they can keep using it again and again and again. Which is super fun to watch. Right. I've got clients who did a program five years ago and they're now on their third or fourth promotion.

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To learn more and we will be.

Right back after this. Well, it's, it's, it's incredible work. And then when you think about just practically how that changes people, it's not just that it changes their financial status, it can lead to generational wealth that they can pass on. Those are all true things. But really what it sounds like too is that it starts off with, with changing the way that they see themselves. And so there's a complete transformation, not just financially, but also internally through the.

Process 100% warm and fuzzy, tree huggy Oprah Winfrey, right? Let's kumbaya element to it, which I always feel a bit funky about. I mean, for me, negotiation is. There's a science to it and there is an art to it, for sure, but it's all kind of hard skill. This is the bit where it all gets a bit fuzzy, and yet, I gotta be real with you. This is where, indeed the transformation is and where the real upside is. It's all mindset. And I say this all the time. I bore everyone around me by everything is mindset, but it really is. 80% of the work that we do inside the program isn't that skill, isn't that strategy, isn't the tactics. It's important. It's a foundational piece where credit's due, right? It's a really important piece. And the biggest thing that we do is indeed focusing on mindset or confidence. Right? Sort of another word for it. And really working through all these limiting beliefs that they've been building up and growing up and being raised a certain way as girls, we get a very different upbringing from the one that the boys get, right? And so working through those stories, ripping them out right at the core, and then replacing them for much more empowered beliefs about themselves and indeed, what they are capable of. And that's the piece that always tremendously surprises me, is that I work with phenomenal women. And I think it's my unique skill in this world. Like I said earlier, I'm not that special. There's one thing I can do better than most other people, and that is that I see the light in others. I see how great they are. So when I speak to my clients, right, the first time around, because we always have a conversation at first to see if there's a mutual fit, right? I'm very selective in who I work with specifically related to people's commitment to do the work. Are they ready for that? I see often very clearly what they're capable of. And sometimes they are very high up in their respective trees, right? In their careers, they are already very far advanced. Sometimes they're much more junior. It's a very diverse group of women that I work with. But consistently, whether they're high up already or whether they're still starting out, they don't see it. And I'm sitting here scratching my head, going, you are magnificent. You have so much to give to this world. Right? But bringing that to light so that it isn't just me seeing it, but that they really feel it. That they really not just know it intellectually, but own it, right? Genuinely feel it, internalize it. That's the energy that I need them to have. And when that happens, that's the good stuff. That's how we get to these massive steps in their lives. What's interesting is that a lot of the women that come to me, they may come because they're frustrated and they're unhappy with what they're earning. Is never about the money. When we ask for feedback, I've got 100% success rate in the sense that I've never had somebody not be happy with the outcomes that they got. Sometimes it takes longer than 10 weeks, it may even take quite a bit longer. Especially when they raise their ambitions massively, which I wholeheartedly encourage and I'm a big fan of. But then it may take a little bit longer than the program or sometimes a lot longer. But anyway, I've never had anybody be unhappy or dissatisfied with what they've achieved. And what they often focus on is what's happened inside of them. And that's the fuzzy bit, right? Where I have this sort of love hate relationship with Woohoo, as I call it, right? With all of that can't really touch it, intangible stuff that as a lawyer, you know, everything I do is research based, right? I'm really focused on bringing the data, not the drama, as I always say, right? Like really being data driven in everything that I do and really being results driven. And now we're entering that, that fuzzy era of I feel so much more confident and I'm like, how does that show up for you? How can we make that real, so to say. But it's always that vision that they have then for themselves that increases through what they're able to do through the program. And I live for that. I just. It's the best. It really is and much better than, I mean, the numbers. Like I said earlier, I'm a freaking hippie. The numbers are important to me because they signal results, right? I like the data, but more importantly because of what they can do with the money, it's to your point. Generational wealth creation. I love it when a client says, I can now buy a house for my family or I can send my kids to university, which I didn't believe I could do before. Or really, what is the freedom that you get through changing your financial status? I think that's the interesting piece. But maybe more importantly than just quote unquote, that is the bit where they truly do see all of a sudden how much value they put into the world. And because they see it and because they also know how to communicate it, they are able to have so much more positive impact in this world. And that's the bit what I live for. And that's the bit where I feel so tremendously privileged being able to sit there and to see them all in their respective worlds do all this magic. Yeah, I love it. Such a beautiful thing.

This is great. This has been incredible. I really appreciate you sharing your insight, taking a ton of notes here, which is awesome for me. I'm learning a lot too. And before you go, make sure to shout out the podcast and the work that you do so people can get in touch with you.

Yes. So the podcast is called Winning with VSpreadbee. It's available on all the regular podcast platforms. I'm not quite sure what you call them, but Google and all of them. Anyway website is called womeninnegotiation.org and if you Googlebox my slightly funny name, you'll find V as well. I'm hanging out on LinkedIn a lot, so I love it when people link up with me, I think is the official term over there. So WYS is W, I, E, S and then Bratby is B, R, A, T, B, Y.

Perfect. Viz. Really appreciate it, my friend. And everybody will put links in the description of this episode to make it easy to connect. Congratulations. You've just joined an elite club by listening to a full episode. You're now officially on the Negotiate Anything team. So welcome aboard. What most team members do is they subscribe to the podcast because that allows them to automatically get the latest episodes of the show. The best things in life lie on the other side of difficult conversations. Keep learning, keep practicing, and keep getting better. Your relationships will improve, your career will soar, and you'll have the confidence you need to get the most out of these crucial conversations. Again, thank you for joining the team. We're excited to have you, and I will see you in the next episode. I'll catch you later.

I'm a little bit. I'm sitting here in the presence of greatness, and I'm feeling very impressed with everything that you put out into this world. And can I just say, on behalf of the world population, for all that great work, I really mean it.

I appreciate that. Thank you. No, this has been fun and it's been cool to build a platform that promotes other people because that's really all it's about for me, because it's like we've been hearing from a few voices in the industry very loudly for a very long time. And so for me, I wanted to create something that could promote all of the people all around the world who have a lot to offer. So I'm just glad that you accepted the invite.

Oh, I was honored and slightly humbled and sort of slightly weirded out by it. They're all very. As in, like, why would you want to talk to me? Other than the fact that I have a perspective that I think some of the people that you. I mean, I know you've had Beth on the line, right? So again, really coming in a long line of all these great people. But, yeah, maybe I can sort of add my perspective, right, My square centimeter in this larger topic of negotiation to everything. When I said that earlier, what I meant was that I love that your perspective, right, is that you're sort of building a stage for other voices. I think what I'm just really grateful for is what you're doing for the topic of negotiation in the sense that in my world, I always feel like a massive freak in terms of caring so much and being wildly obsessed with the topic that most people are like, sure, on you. You know, like, you do. You stay away, basically. And what I feel that that you have done is really sort of popularized something that is obviously very close to my heart. But most people don't really feel that way, right. And so I'm super grateful for that. And I often refer to you and the great interviews and conversations you've done and the books I have said. I have to say that your latest one is still on the to read pile. Thank you. Another one I've been very impressed with. So it's high up on the to read pile. I just have a few more to do anyway.

That's great. No, that means a lot to me. That means a lot to me because, like, you've been following me. I've been following you. Your work's really impressive. And so, yeah, of course, I got to stay up to date on the industry because I value your perspective. And the thing is, everybody is a little bit different in the way that they approach things. Everybody has a different lived experience, different parts of the world, all these types of things. And so it's just really cool to get to know different people, learn from them. Because every interview, I learned something new, every single interview, which is really, really fun. So, yeah, it's been quite the journey. But what I found is kind of like you. There are a lot of freaks in the world who love this stuff. There are a lot of People who don't know that they do love it. I think that's the thing, because we're all people who talk to people at the end of the day. And then once they start to learn about how they can improve their relationships, improve their lives through this, they're like, wait a second. I'm obsessed with negotiation and conflict resolution, too.

So it's been fun, but that's your great work. What do you love most about negotiation? What's the bit that gets you most excited?

I would say it's the connection and collaboration piece, building relationships and things like that. I think it is a tool for better relationships. That's really it. And I think just growing up, being different and finding ways to connect with other people, it was communication and observing people and learning about people that allowed me to connect, even though I was very different from everybody. And so, for me, I just want to proliferate those skills. And then also, it's just like the motto at the American Negotiation Institute. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And I think a lot of people don't realize that their inability to have these difficult conversations is really one of the key things that's holding them back.

I love that. And that line, right, that all this good stuff is on the other side of a difficult conversation. That's literally when I. I remember reading that the first time and really thinking, that is it. And that's what makes me a freak. In sort of the circle that I, you know, with the people that I hang out with, that I always got excited about dropping the bomb, which is what I really. How I pictured it. When there was a difficult conversation to have, even as a younger child, I would drop the bomb and then go, and now I need to follow up, right? Because once the bomb is dropped, you gotta take action, right? You can't just leave it there and go, bye. You know, you have to then. But then doing that, realizing the power of engaging in that conversation. I mean, obviously I didn't have the language at the time, right. To see this, but I remembered the excitement, the trepidation, the wild stress that I was experiencing, right? But also the excitement of, I know we're going to end up in a better place than before this. And I think that. I don't think a lot of people realize that. I think they get stuck in the fear. They don't see the upside 100%.

Just this morning, I started writing a Forbes article, and it kind of speaks to that. And I realized that actually it'd Be interesting to hear your perspective on it. So think about the things that we care about that could actually hold us back. That's not necessarily a bad thing. We care about losing a relationship. We care about saying something that offends people. We care about hurting people's feelings. Those are legitimate things to care about and that's critical for human connection. And at the same time, caring too much about those things is actually the root of performance anxiety or a lack of performance at all. And so that fear can hold us back. We shouldn't stop caring about those things. But we have to balance it by caring about other things. And I'm focusing on mission and message. What is it that I'm here to accomplish? What's my mission? What is the message that allows me to accomplish my mission? And a lot of times when we focus on other people's feelings predominantly, we muddy the message and then jeopardize the mission.

I guess if you take it back to mission, right, and you're there already, as in why am I having this conversation? Most of the time that's got little to do with you, but with the other side. And if I think if you make it about the other side, if you focus your energy in this conversation and your energy in wanting resolution, you know, and even starting the conversation on what it brings to the other side, I find that that always makes it easier to have it. So taking your own, yourself and your ego out of the equation, what is more important here? Is it that I want to be viewed a certain way by the other side? Or is it that we actually accomplish the goal that I have, obviously for myself, but also very much for the other side? And if I let my own needs and interests drive the conversation, that's, I think, where we get really sort of. We get sort of stuck in this loop of discomfort. Whereas if we focus the very vast majority of our attention and our energy on the other side and on wanting to help them move forward, I find that that takes a lot of the pressure off our shoulders and makes it easier for sure.

I mean, that's the heart of collaborative interest based negotiation. We have to figure out what it is that they want. And then we have to also realize that the only way we can get what we want is if we help them to achieve their goals as well. If we focus on those type of things, then it can lead us in the right direction. A lot of times we are led by our fears and then that leads us astray.

We are led by our fears. And my whole point is it shouldn't be about your fears. You should have the other side's interest become more important than your fears. Right. That's the bit that I think flips it to you. She making it happen.

I love that. Okay, that's really good. See, I'm already starting to take notes. Please.

Oh, this is. I mean, this is the entire crux, I would say, of the work that I do. Right. Is get out of your own way and focus on the other side, which is coincidentally, the expectation that rests on women. Right. We should never think about ourselves, care about ourselves. We always have to care for the other person more than for ourselves. That's basically what, you know, historically speaking, has been our job and has been the message to women. So they've internalized it. Right. They feel it that way themselves so that when they speak up for themselves, that feels really freaking uncomfortable and uncool. But also society expects it all this so that if we do overcome our own barriers, right. It's other people are telling us way, way you're not supposed to. And so the entire. What I would say is use that. Leverage the heck out of, you know, societal message by actually focusing on the other side. And what's interesting is that that makes it easier for you as a person to actually have the conversation to ask for yourself, but also for the other side to give you what you want. It's a little bit similar when you're. For example, when you're. There's a lot of people, it's not you, but there's a lot of people who stress out about having to be on a stage and speaking. Right. Public speaking. And my advice is always get out of your. Like, I don't have, like, practical tips and stuff. And, you know, well, I do, but. But I think they're really minor. I think the biggest change happens when you realize you're not standing there for yourself. You really aren't. You're there to have the audience feel a certain way or understand. And as long as you focus on that and you wildly focus on the audience, your own ego slips away. It's not there. Right. It doesn't take up any space or any energy of you. Because who freaking cares how you relay this message? Like, who cares about what your voice sounds like or how you stand or how you, you know, and so if you focus just on what is it that I want the audience to. What do I need them, right? What do I need them to understand or to know or to feel, etc. I think it just makes everything easier here.

This is so good. These are quotables. This is great. Well, perfect. Well, let's do this person.

I'm just sitting here ranting.

No, this is great.

Can you lead us?

No, I love it. This is great. This is really cool.