Ensuring Your Legacy: Estate Planning Insights with Eli Angote

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. Thanks for joining us today. With over 10 million downloads and listeners from more than 180 different countries, it's dedicated listeners just like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of of the American Negotiation Institute. Now, before we get into today's insightful conversation, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives. Have you ever found yourself wishing that you could navigate those high stakes conversations with more confidence? Or perhaps you're looking to empower your team with the art of persuasion and conflict resolution? At the American Negotiation Institute, we've crafted specialized keynotes and workshops tailored for those very needs. We've transformed the negotiation skills of professionals worldwide and we're eager to do the same for you. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And our goal is to help you improve your lives and the lives of those around you, one difficult conversation at a time. Don't let another challenging conversation leave you second guessing. Click the link in the description to discover how we can help you find confidence in conflict, negotiate better deals, and have stronger relationships. Because in the world of business, every conversation counts. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Eli, thanks for joining us today.

Thank you, Kwame.

Yeah, it is our pleasure to have you, my friend. So how would you get us started? By telling us a bit about yourself and what you do.

All right, Kwame. Thank you for having me. My name is Elaine Gotay. I am the son of Kathryn Jerry. I have to honor her because I would not be here without her dedication. As a single mother raised me by herself mostly. And then Samuel Ngote was my stepfather. I carry his name. I'm the founder of the Best Notary is a company that now has evolved from just providing notarization to busy people on demand to supporting estate planners in bringing their offices into their clients homes, either in person or through video. So we have now built the first a state planner focused document concierge solution that helps with not just the notarization, but the printing of documents, the scanning of those documents, the sourcing of witnesses, the recording of electronic documents with counties around the country and also with the assembly of the final binder that estate planners will present to their clients. So basically, we are a soup to nuts. From drafts to binder delivery, One stop shop to help estate Planners what they do best, which is counsel their clients and build relationships in their local communities. So that's my day job. I also love to read, enjoy Flying drones, traveling and building community, which is how I met amazing folks like you. Kwame.

Yeah, man, this is great. And it's been so cool to see your journey and your growth. And before we get into those conversations and your approach, I want to talk about your mindset, because you introduced me to a concept that was new, brand new. And I think it's something that can be really empowering to people as they confront challenges in their lives in general. But also, of course, more specifically, let's stay on brand when it comes to difficult conversations. So tell us about the concept of death positivity.

Yes, Kwame, thank you. Death positivity is something that I discovered. I think it began with a TED talk by a doctor named BJ Miller. BJ Miller was an educated doctor who. I think he had an accident when he was in college, which led to him becoming a bit of a paraplegic. He lost, I think, to both of his legs and an arm. Terrible way to kind of like, start your. Your journey as a medical doctor. This was during med school. I think they were playing near like a. Like a train, you know, tracks. And he got electrocuted, and this really wrecked havoc on his right physical body. And I think having come to death at that point, it awakens something in him that ended up in him becoming a doctor who focused on palliative care. And he built a Zen hospice in San Francisco. And he talked about this, I think, in his. In his TED Talk. It's about, what is it like to die? Well, it's one thing to just die because we all fear death. Death is this terrible thing that happens to us. So he built this place where, you know, people who, at the end of their life, terminally, they could be surrounded by friends who would come and sing, right? They'd be able to things they wanted to do, even if they're not things that the medical system would advise, right? Somebody wants to have a few cigarettes, he's like, that's fine. You can do that. At this particular Zen hospice, you can have people that can come and stay there for a couple of days with you and not have to leave. That, I think, planted the seed. And I think an ex of mine wanted to go volunteer there because she heard it. She's a medical nurse, an rn, and she wanted to contribute to this place because it just seemed like such a departure from the standard guidelines of the medical System which say that we have to keep someone's body alive for as long as possible, regardless of the quality of that experience. So that planted that seed. And then I watched a documentary by Stephen Jenkinson called the Grief Walker. Beautiful documentary. And he shows how western society has in many ways abstracted death away from day to day life. People you ever see dead bodies around, we don't talk about death as much. You avoid it as much as you can. The medical system is maybe in the way that it is because so much spent simply an extending life as much as possible without regard to the quality of life. So he compares us to the ancients where dying well was about having people around you to support you in your journey to the other side. So he goes through a lot of different situations to show how the fear of death is tied to not feeling supported and in strong community with people around you. Because that's really what matters in the end. It's the richness and depth of our connections. And I think having that makes it so much easier, right, to face those final moments. So that's kind of what planted that seed. And then to the point that seeing that we have this death anxiety that is at the root of life. So Ernest Becker has a book called the Denial of Death, which also talks about this. And his whole thesis in that book, which won a Pulitzer, by the way, in 1975, is that the reason that we live life and do what we do, start families, start businesses, write books, invent things, create music, culture, art, all of it in some way, shape or form, is to combat. It's to mask. It's to put off this realization that all of us have, that we are going to die. And at a young age we realize when you see animals dying. And I think that is what some students later who created some research to confirm what Ernest Becker thought that's the warm at the core of human life is this realization that we're going to die. Understanding this, I think can create some sort of peace. And realizing that, you know what, even if I meet my end, it is par for the course. And I can use my time here, maybe more carefully, more intentionally, and like you said earlier, Kwame, be able to bring our authentic self in every conversation that we have. Because I think at the root of a lot of our conflict is not asking for what we need. And maybe not having empathy on the other side for what the other person needs. So I think that to me is what embracing death positivity is.

I love this concept. It's so important for us to approach life in a way that is empowering, because I think living in fear all the time is very disempowering and it causes us to live very small lives. And this reminds me of the classic stoic saying of memento mori. Remember, you will die, right? Keeping that in perspective, when you're in a conversation where your partner might have said something that kind of triggered you a little bit, but you're like, you know what? I'm not going to say anything. And then you, you know what? This isn't worth worse than death. You can stand up and have this little conversation because in the context of your entire life, it's going to be relatively small. But also recognizing that everything comes to an end. And I think that classic saying of this too shall pass. I mean, just keeping these types of things in mind can give us the empowering perspective necessary to actually stand up and advocate for ourselves and the things that we care about when it matters most.

I like it. You've nailed it.

Yeah, man, this is great. And this is a strong way to start this because we all have those challenges in different ways, you know, and one of the things that's interesting is that psychologically speaking, our mind struggles to distinguish between a physical threat and an emotional threat. And so what is threatening to me might not be threatening to you, but it still feels, feels massively terrifying. So even though we're not being chased by that saber toothed tiger like back in the savannah thousands of years ago, it still feels like it when our, our child comes home and asks to, you know, stay out past curfew. You know, I think these types of, this type of tool, this mental exercise that we go through can really be empowering and help us to step up.

100%, you know, and I'm thinking now about a movie called, I think it's called Departure. So the Departed is about this Japanese monk who has these deaf dying classes where he, he helps you prepare for your death. And I think one of the excellent, you know, he has to lay down with, with a blindfold over their face at one point. And you lay there in complete darkness. And you kind of, you're practicing what it's like to not exist anymore. And at one point he has everyone write down the things they love on piece of paper. Okay? Kids, surfing, watching movies, whatever it is reading, you crumple it up. If this ball of little papers in front of you and he has you take each one of those away right from the circle one, okay, Second, third. And you're seeing that number of the things you love dwindle. And it says, okay, take that last one away. And it was like powerful to watch that because it really embodies what you said. Remember, this too shall pass. All of it, the good and the bad.

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So I think facing that and doing that on a regular basis might just help you embrace those things a bit more because you know that they're not going to be there. Amazing, amazing documentary. It's a great, great documentary.

Yeah, no, it makes sense and it's scary. It's very scary. Now let's bring it back to the business world. When we think about the conversations that you have to have and have had on this journey, let's walk through it because I think it would be helpful just as an awareness test for people to realize, wow, is this a notary service or a.

Death doula? A death doula service. Yeah.

So this is great. So just let's break it down. Who are the people that you have to talk to day to day and what do those conversations look like just again, in the past and all the way to the present.

Yeah. So, you know, maybe some of the toughest conversations with my, my business partner, you know, Stephanie, Right now, your partner, your CEO is named Stephanie as well. So, you know, great choice there. Stephanie's are amazing people. But, you know, it's testing sometimes my beliefs, going against her beliefs and kind of going back to the book called the Warm at the Core. You know, in the beginning, the, the, our bedrock, the attachment figures who give us safety are our parents for most of us. And our parents leave with us certain messages or impressions or ideas. A lot of us who end up becoming of a certain religion, end up becoming in a certain profession. It's because this came from the people that we originally were raised by. So a lot of the times the beliefs that they had become our beliefs and the messages that we unconsciously absorb from them become elements of our own selves. So basically I have, you know, had an understanding that the way I approach matters is very different from how Stephanie approaches things. Right. So I'm, I'm a lot more be impulsive. I tend to move quicker. I tend to be more aggressive. I tend to maybe live in the clouds and kind of be more of the dreamer and have the vision. And she's more on the practical side and really kind of looking at the short term on what this means for the business. So I might want to hire someone. She's like, no, we're not. We can't do that right now. But I'm like, listen, this is how we're going to achieve this goal that we both want. So we have these sometimes really intense conversations, Kwame, that maybe somebody on the outside will be like, wow, like this is real. This is how can these two be working together? But what I've learned is that at some point I have to go beyond my initial instinct, which is to counter whatever she's saying because I am seen as an obstacle to the things that I'm trying to get done and to validate and acknowledge what she is saying. As they say, strong, strong manning her arguments.

So.

Or steel manning arguments so that we're not in this juxtaposed conflict where everything she says, I'm looking to shut down, I'm looking to override and overcome because I want to win this argum. But, you know, but of the entrepreneurial mindset is, you know, I'm going to overcome any obstacles that shows up, even if it's someone who's saying, hey, listen, let's slow this down, let's think about this. So I think understanding all of this has helped me to slow down a bit more and to listen, not to respond, but to really understand. And I realized that that has to be genuine. That's what NVC has taught me. Another tool in my toolkit, you know, nonviolent communication, is that I have to have a genuine interest in her perspective. And the second I cease to have that, Kwame, she knows it. And it's going to lead to an escalation of the conflict, which means nothing gets done and our progress is slowed down.

Do we have the same Stephanie or something?

Is that sounding similar, Kwame? I don't remember. You said that she has this gentle. Is it gentle persistence or gentle persuasion to bring her, you know, she brings it back to you in a way that is non threatening. It's non threatening gentle persuasion which sometimes ends up with you resonating with what she has to say so I think I've struggled by not doing that, and now I'm realizing I need to use some of what your Stephanie's doing to be able to have my Stephanie truly feel like, wow, like, Eli really cares. He's not just trying to get what he needs done. He cares about what I have to say, and that can facilitate true dialogue and a true exchange of ideas.

Yeah, there's so much good stuff in this. Eli, with this response, because a couple of things I want to pull out, because when you talked about the beliefs, you didn't say it in terms of, I'm right, she's wrong, or vice versa. You're just saying these are beliefs. These are just thoughts. I heard a great definition of belief is like a belief is just a thought that you have thought consistently. That's what a belief is. And a lot of times we absorb these. Yeah, it's powerful because sometimes it detaches us from it because we can say, oh, I could just think something else. It doesn't mean that I'm necessarily right or they're necessarily wrong. These are just cognizant cognitions. Okay, cool. This is mine, this is yours. Let's talk about it. And then you also said intense conversations where if somebody was looking from the outside looking in, they would say, wow, that is.

That.

That's a lot. But I want to talk about culture. Right. So you're. You're from Kenya, right? My family's from the Caribbean. We moved to America. These are big C culture. Right. But within every smaller group, there's. It's. There's a little C culture. And within your culture of you and Stephanie, that is the way that you communicate. It might seem intense to other people, but you can feel safe within that. That ecosystem. And then when you're talking about the difficult conversations, you said we have to go beyond our instincts because we might start to see the other person as an obstacle. Right. And it's so important that we hone in on this, because our instincts will lead us to do things that don't serve our ultimate goals. And a lot of times, in order for us to be effective in these conversations, it doesn't feel good in the moment because it feels like a threat. Going back to what I said before, emotional threat, physical threat feels the same way. And so the point that you made about listening and genuinely listening, I want to spend some time there, because there's a difference. Because if you listen the right way, listening the right way in a tough conversation might feel within your body really, really, really Bad. So how do you cultivate genuine interest so you can genuinely listen and the person feels heard, even if you disagree with them in that moment?

KWAME that's a tough question because I fail at it so many times. I fail at that so many times. Right. Because I keep hearing that, Eli, you're in your head. You're in your head. You know, you're not really, you know, able to listen from the heart. Right? You're basically anticipating what I'm going to say next, and you're quickly getting in front of that. So going back to what one of my teachers in the nvc, Newt Bailey, you know, it's about self connection. You know, he says it's not. It doesn't, like, call like a nonviolent communication. It's called a connected communication. And the word that comes to mind here's attunement. What is happening for that other person, especially when they might be triggered by something I said or by a situation. Where are they right now? And trying to tune into that. Right. And I guess for me, what I would have learned is, you know, I'm more on the, what they call the avoidant side of things, which means that I tend to sometimes detach that that was my coping strategy. I grew up, as you heard, the son of a single mother. And I think I had to spend a lot of time on my, on my, on my own. You know, I was lucky to have that or unlucky to have that, depending on how you look at it. Because sometimes if your parent is too involved in your life, that can cause its own set of issues. So I remember walking home from school sometimes and having to love myself back at home. I was very young. When I kind of go back now I'm like, wow, like, that was a lot for a 6, 7, 8 year old to be doing, right? Walking home from school, sometimes being chased by dogs, neighbors, dogs, you know, and I had to let myself in the house. I had to, you know, have the key. I lose keys all the time as an adult. Go back to, like, thankfully, we have things like tile now. I'm like, I just hit a button. Oh, my keys are right there. But as a kid, you know, having to navigate all these things, and the one thing that I remember that was really complex was making tea. I had to get the tea leaves, get the milk, you know, heat the milk first, I believe, add some water, the measurements, put the tea leaves in, sieve them, you know, you know, sieve the, the milk and tea combo into a cupboard. And then my. And then you know, butter and jam, my bread. So I. I learned to embrace being on my own and being independent. I didn't have to be too bothered. I. I could do this. I had some confidence built in for being on my own, right. So that sometimes I'm understanding now can lead to me not wanting to get too emotional. Emotions kind of trigger me sometimes, like, when you kind of start, like, raising your voice and. And maybe being truly engaged emotionally, I might kind of pull back, like, and kind of, like, be very stoic, as you said before, which means I'm not attuned to what's happening for the other person, which means I'm not really truly connecting to the emotional state and addressing that. Hey, man, like, I can see that, you know, Stephanie, a little bit upset right now, a little bit agitated, you know, and I would like to apologize. There's something I said that led you there, and that's huge, because it ain't. I'm aware of what's happening and connecting to that, right? And then, you know, slowly leading into where I want to go. But first of all, pausing for a second, right? You said that I went too quickly in that last thing that happened. Maybe I didn't include you in that decision to move these people to this. To move the people from. To work Fridays to Sundays. And you really feel like I should have consulted you for that, to pause to say that, as opposed to saying, listen, I did this because of xyz. I had to move quickly, whatever, whatever. Defending myself before saying, wow, like, I can see that my decision really hurt you, and then I didn't include you, and that really hurt. So Stephanie, by default, as a psychologist, you know, this is what her training is to do, Kwame. So I am humbled regularly by just how much better she does it than I do, right? And the less that I do it, I find that the more upset she becomes, which then leads to this cycle where we're not really hearing each other. The less that I run an override or skip past the validation step, the less likely we are to connect and hear each other, and the more likely things are to escalate. And that's. That's been really hard, Kwame, to really understand, right? That just. Just skipping that step, What I'm saying is fine. But just skipping that validation step, that connection step, that attunement step, it is what has honestly held me back from so much more progress and faster resolution, you know, because sometimes if you keep doing that, Kwame, you build this debt, you know? You know, there's A sleep debt. If you don't sleep enough over time, you end up being groggy, and your learning is not going to be as good. It's going to be a huge drag on your growth. So if you're skipping this validation step, you're creating this validation debt that ends up in these huge explosions, or people are really angry and Kwame, I mean, angry. And you're like, wait, what just happened here? So it's taken me a long time to understand that you, as a leader, you have to listen to your people. You have to put yourself aside for a second, and you have to also join them in what they're feeling. And if you don't. If you can't do that, fake it till you make it. You know, try to, like, wow, my God, like, you're really upset right now. Even just saying that can really help them to say, okay, fine, like, he's noticing. He's not just pushing on with his agenda. He's taken a moment to see me and understand me and witness me as I am right now.

You know, the universe works in incredible ways, Eli. And it's funny, you giving the playbook for how to talk to a Stephanie. Like, the timing of this is comically hilarious, because this is a great.

That's how it works, man. That's how it works, man.

Great reminder for my conversations with Stephanie. And I like the fact. And this is so important for people in the business world to understand. So important. They say, kwame, hey, this takes time. You're asking me to empathize. You're asking me to listen. I have to make decisions fast. I don't have time for this. And what you said was that skipping that step of validation held you back from progress and speed. We need to spend some time on that, so go deeper.

It came up to my understanding because as you, as the people you've been talking to, said, right, I want to solve a problem, you know, I feel like time is limited. I got to get stuff done. So I was on a call, you know, with a couple of my team members, you know, and I was a little frustrated because something had happened that I wasn't happy about. And what I've heard is, as a best practice is, you know, praise in public, coach in private. Right. And I think it. It had come up a couple of times, but in this case, I was really feeling a lot of frustration, right? So I kind of. I flouted that. That. That guideline, and I decided just to ask questions about this situation that had happened with this internal team. Member and an external contractor. And at some point, she went, you know, I don't appreciate that this conversation is happening right now, and I'd rather we talked about that later. So I was like, ooh, okay, great, great. And then. And I quickly realized after that that I had basically not handled that right. And I reached out through checks and I said something. But some time passed before we actually got together and had a conversation about this. And I think it took some time to rebuild the trust. But I'm realizing that if I had truly validated and understood these messages that I'd received from different people about the importance of coaching in private, bringing up sensitive things in private as opposed to doing them in a public sett, that I would have handled that differently. I would have handled it differently. It's uncomfortable to dial back or, you know, own what I had done that had led to this issue. It took some time for me to. To reach out and say, listen, you know what? I apologize that I. That I should have waited until we had something to discuss it together, right? So I think it's so crucial the more time you spend in connection with yourself. And, you know, at that moment, I was upset, Kwame. That's why I chose to make the two to. To say what I had. What I had to say in the wrong form, in the wrong context. We had a different issue we're trying to solve, right? So that delayed. Right. The time I could have spent in private having a real conversation about this if I was truly attuned to the needs of my team. Because that was the first time this had happened. That's why this kind of makes it a little bit harder. It wasn't the first time I had heard feedback. Hey, dude, like, you know, if an issue comes up, let's talk about this together. The people who are involved don't this. When people who are not involved because it creates a bit more of this persecuted or they feel like they're being put on blast, which is not. It's. It's not safe. I am not bringing. I'm not prioritizing safety before we have that difficult conversation 100%.

And I appreciate you that. Your vulnerability in that example, you know, because in the moment, it's hard, especially when you realize you messed up. Right? And I think that's something that's so important for people to realize because they're afraid of making mistakes. And what your story demonstrates is that, yeah, it's unfortunate when it happens, but it does happen. But you can recover if you own it and apologize and I think in the moment, once you realize I shouldn't have said that publicly like you. You owned it and said, you're right, let's take this offline, right? That fear will lead you to protect yourself because your ego feels like it's at risk to being. It's vulnerable. So it says, you know what? No, I can't. Even though this person is bringing up valid points, I can't own it in front of everybody else. Then I'd look bad. Well, you already look bad, you know, so it's like you have to. You have to be willing to make that adjustment. And the best way to recover and start to move in the right direction is owning it, apologizing it, taking. Taking it on the chin and moving forward. It's. I wish I had a magic wand that could have us, like, rewind time so it didn't happen, but it did, you know, and you just have to recognize it and move, because that adjustment in the moment, even though we cause damage in the moment, will start to rebuild trust a lot faster.

I like it. You know, and I just threw in a little. A little lick in the chat. I don't know if you've come across this album, Malcolm. Jamal Warner, we all know him from the Cosby Show. You know, he has an album out, a spoken word album on Spotify. Right. There's a track there, Kwame, I gotta bring up. It's called Hiding in Plain Sight. And it's a lovely piece about how each of us, in many ways, the default is skepticism about what people say and what their intentions are. That's the default. Right. Sadly, you know, what are you hiding? What are you not saying? And I think the people sometimes we admire the most are the people who are putting it out there a million percent. I think that's so rare to be in that moment. Like, oh, my God, I'm so sorry that I spoke about this right now. I'm really sorry. Like, I would love to. You know, I wish I. I wish I had waited. It's. It's. You know, I had to. I couldn't do that in the moment. I had to do it, like, later, like in a tax train. And then all this time went by. Right? But if you're like, oh, my God, I. You're right, I really messed up. You know, I'm getting so much better at that now. But it's taken me, I swear to God, four decades to realize that it's. It's. It's the number one thing that's going to bring me closer to the people I'm trying to do business with, build relationships with, you know, do joint ventures with. Because I want to lead with the truth. Right? This is where we are. We, we had a tough year last year. Our revenue went down. I'm talking to investors, right? This is what the challenges are. We had a couple of scuffles with, you know, with the authorities, taxation stuff happening, whatever. It's like this is kind of what the challenges are, you know, to tell the client, hey, listen, we dropped the ball before the client finds out. We dropped the ball on this, on this client. What can we do to fix it? I think a lot of us, we sit on it, we avoid talking about it because we're afraid that they're going to get upset, that they're going to be, you know, they're going to channel that parent who was super critical of us as a child. So in this album, Malcolm Jamal Warnerme, he's going through that in a very real way, in a poetic way that really inspired me to do my best, to lean in, especially when it's hard to really say what's coming up. I think men, we struggle more than this than women, to be honest with you, because we're supposed to be strong. Especially African men are supposed to be like just completely, you know, emotionless and always displaying strength. You know, fear means backing down, right? You know, displaying fear, displaying discomfort, displaying vulnerability, it's a sign of weakness. So I think those scripts, those like you said, repeated, you know, thoughts and words have become an identity. And I think it's why we have so many men that are struggling with being real, being kind, being compassionate. So been a long journey.

This is great. I appreciate this, Eli. This is great. And we'll put a link to that, that album too, as well as all of your contact info and everything. But before you go, because I know we're coming up on time, bro, I could talk to you forever, you know that same, same. Remind the listeners again about you and the company and how they can get in touch and learn more.

Absolutely. So right now we are still the best notary.net that is going to be. We're going to be rebranding basically because we do so much more than notarization. As I said, we help with witness sourcing, we assemble bind, we do document recording. Very soon we'll be helping out with trust administration and helping attorneys basically offload all of their non billable tasks. So we're building an amazing team. We're looking to raise some capital. So reach out to me if you have any legal tech investors in your network? It's a very tight niche. So we are here to, as I said, eventually provide a freemium witness and notary solution, right, to bring estate planning to a billion underserved families around the planet. Because typically, estate planning is a tool of the privileged. So we want to see what we can do to democratize estate planning so more of us can protect our legacies and our families.

Oh, this is incredible. So necessary. Eli, really appreciate this, brother.

Thank you, Kwame. I appreciate you and all the great work you're doing and the example you're setting for healthy black men. Thank you for being a great beacon for what is possible with hard work, dedication, and a focus on family.

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