Financial Literacy and Negotiation Strategies with Ira Bell-Guilford

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. Thanks for joining us today. With over 10 million downloads and listeners from more than 180 different countries, it's dedicated listeners just like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of the American Negotiation Institute. Now, before we get into today's insightful conversation, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives. Have you ever found yourself wishing that you could navigate those high stakes conversations with more confidence? Or perhaps you're looking to empower your team with the art of persuasion and conflict resolution? At the American Negotiation Institute, we've crafted specialized keynotes and workshops tailored for those very needs. We've transformed the negotiation skills of professionals worldwide and we're eager to do the same for you. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And our goal is to help you improve your lives and the lives of those around you, one difficult conversation at a time. Don't let another challenging conversation leave you second guessing. Click the link in the description to discover how we can help you find confidence in conflict, negotiate better deals, and have stronger relationships. Because in the world of business, every conversation counts. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Ira, thanks for joining us today.

Absolutely. Happy to be here.

Yeah man, we are happy to have you. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Gladly. So from Jersey City, former football player, had the opportunity to push myself to reach all American status in high school. School from there was highly recruited, went to the Ohio State University and since then pretty much been in business. So essentially went to initially rather went to work with my father who is a real estate developer. So got my feet wet in there as far as understanding business went from there. Remembered where my passion was in athletics, so jumped back into training where that took off. I opened up a gym in 2016, so operated that up until last year where it was sold. But that whole process working with athletes where I became more of a career advisor. So I'm dealing with everything from 8 year olds that are looking for what teams to play on, what coaches are going to get the proper development to choosing high schools to when I'm in high school figuring out which camps are going to get me the best exposure and really how to earn scholarship money. And we've been very successful with that, had a few guys had chance to go pro. And again, what I've been doing, working with the families that led me to jump into the finance world, especially once they started talking about NIL and paying these amateur athletes. So did that and have been working with my guys ever since. So, yeah, right now I'm out of the city, Northwestern Mutual in Manhattan, and I work with a lot of people that work in sports. You know, we got coaches, athletes, retired guys, and a lot of families, a lot of families that are raising kids, student athletes. So that is the majority of my client base. Yeah, I'm here to talk about that.

Absolutely. This is great. And listeners, what you're seeing is that Aira has lived this life, is now helping other people to live that life and do it in a way that's financially savvy. So you've been through the gauntlet from amateur athletics all the way to at the Ohio State University. Everybody knows I'm a Buckeye, very proud of that and gotta put the D in there. And now we're gonna talk about how to negotiate these NIL contracts. Your perspective is going to be very valuable here, given your experience as an athlete, but then your experience in the business world, in real estate and also owning a business yourself. And now being somebody who's in the financial world, working with Northwestern Mutual. So you're, you can check all of those boxes. Now, before we get into this, I want to give you an opportunity to kind of let the listeners know about the landscape for nil. Name, image and likeness, how it changed the game. And then we can talk about those unique negotiations and then how it applies to other things, too.

Absolutely. So to understand the NIL landscape is to understand that we are in the wild, wild west phase. So this is like the initial gold rush, where everybody's coming and everybody wants a piece and it's all open. So nobody knows necessarily where the gold is. They just know it's there and everybody's searching for it. So with that, you have when we talk about deals, because, you know, the first thing people want to know is, well, what type of money are we talking about? So there's a huge range. I have middle school guys that I work with that may get a few hundred dollars a month, which if I'm 12 or 13, that's a lot of money. I have high school kids that are probably in the same range. Then you get all the way up to your top level prospects, where you're talking six figures. These are more so deals where juniors, seniors are more so Negotiating with colleges, like a lot of collectives when we're talking those figures. But that's the range of deals we're talking about. I mean, all the way up to the millions. There's. There's guys that are worth millions of dollars. There's only a handful of them. So it's not like, you know, everybody jumps in the nil world. There's going to be worth a million dollars, but there's money to be had. And again, it ranges from, you know, multiples of millions down to a few hundred bucks. So it's wide open.

This is incredible. And, yeah, you said in middle school, a few hundred bucks is a lot. I mean, for me, in law school, a few hundred bucks was a lot. So this is pretty substantial. And before this, these were opportunities that were not available at all. And so they just pulled the lid off of this and said, hey, everybody, have fun. And so now what's interesting is that this is great because people have new financial opportunities, but if you don't have the financial literacy, in order to understand how the money actually works, it can hold you back. And so we're going to talk about financial literacy in a little bit. But before this interview started, Ira, you told me something interesting about the landscape that I didn't know. And this was about leverage and who actually has the most leverage in the industry. Can you tell us about that?

Absolutely. So when you look at it all, the biggest opportunity, just as far as name, image, likeness, and capitalizing off of it, is with women. And it's with women because take a look at this, right? So we have these conversations all the time, and I'm talking about, you know, the sports community about professional women's sports. So everything from compensation to, you know, attendance. And what are they generating, you know, what are they bringing in? What's the demand? Well, when you look on the collegiate level, first of all, the demand across the board is typically higher. People go bonkers over their school colors. So that reflects in attendance numbers, mainly attendance numbers. I mean, people watch professional sports, but when you're talking about going to games, going to sports games, college is blowing pro out of the water. And, you know, that taps into pride. So from that aspect, and even if you just look at what we have going on from women's basketball on the collegiate level, the viewership is up, the attention that the sport is getting. You look at what Angel Reese has been able to do just over this last year with nil. She's the first NIL athlete selling her own memorabilia inside of Dick's sporting goods, again, women's basketball. But point blank, she, she's an interesting example where it came up recently. She's considering the fact that she's probably going to make more money in college than as a professional athlete and is now looking at different opportunities to get into modeling, continue her career. When you consider that on the pro level, the opportunities aren't as big, I mean, you know, a lot of professional athletes, women, they may play for multiple teams, they may play for a US Team, and then they may go into off season and play overseas, you know, just to support themselves and their families. So when you're talking about, again, the nil space, the opportunities, the fact that we're still in this wild, wild west phase means that it's a little less predictable as far as, you know, what type of income we're talking about. However, we do know that there is income to be had, there are opportunities to be had. And some of those opportunities are going to be even bigger than it would be if you became a professional athlete at this point.

It's incredible. That is incredible. And I think this is a great lesson in leverage when it comes to negotiations. Because one of the things about leverage and power is that it shifts with time. It's very context dependent. And so if you don't know where to look for it or you don't have a good understanding of what it is, you might have it, but you might not perceive it. And if you don't perceive it, then you won't use it. And if you think about just the typical trajectory of anybody, but especially in professional sports, we say, okay, we start off not making much money at all or nothing, and then we finally become a professional and that's where we make it rain. But in this situation, what we're recognizing is that because the market is different in this specific context, we have, like you said, attendance is up, viewership is up. The leverage, the opportunity for women in athletics in the ncaa, it's right now even more so than in their professional tenure. And so understanding that gives you an opportunity to use that. And so I think this is just a good reminder that leverage, power, it shifts with time. So you have to have a good understanding of the industry so you can strike when the iron's hot.

Absolutely. And that just off the top of the head, this is something that came out recently. So with the video game, the EA Sports video game, ncaa, they're paying everybody that's participating in the game. So I guess you had to sign off on your name, image and likeness to EA Sports, but they're paying out $600 in a copy of the game to everybody that's in the game.

Oh, wow.

Yeah. This is like breaking news. This is, you know, and it just tied in because when you're talking about leverage, so obviously Ohio State colleague of mine, Maurice Claret, I remember way back then when he was initially challenging the league, and mind you, we went through this whole nil thing back Maurice's story, he got the not so nice end of the stick. Whereas today the landscape has changed. Like you said, the market change landscape has changed. So it may have been a little different if he tried to do some of the things he tried to do back then today. But with that being said, I remember being on the bus and he's looking at his jersey in like every window we drive past number 13 jerseys. And then you go to the game and it's like Everybody's wearing number 13 jerseys. And that's when I know with him, really, he started to talking about it and even start thinking about, like, how much money are these guys making? You know, so it's like, even back then, you know, yeah, we get a scholarship and, you know, some free meals. But comparison to, again, the amount of money that's coming in that's being generated off of the name, image and likeness off of the players. You know, people are coming to the games because Maurice is a freshman and he's breaking records. So it's like, okay, that's valuable, you know, being able to understand that. So understanding economics, you know, when you're looking and you seeing, hey, these people are wearing my jersey because of what I did in the game last week, that's leverage. So, yeah, it's understanding these things, and this is an understanding of that, of leverage, of your personal value is huge in today's landscape because again, we don't have a lot of regulations around nil and how this thing is built. So if you're going into a negotiation and you deem yourself valuable, then you need to be able to articulate, you know, what that value is and how you should be compensated for it.

Hello, my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question. Have you ever wondered how to elevate your team's negotiation game and how you can help the folks on your team have better, difficult conversations? At the American Negotiation Institute, we offer transformative keynotes and workshops tailored to empower professionals with top tier negotiation and conflict resolution skills. Whether it's a keynote for your next event or hands on training for Your team, we've got you covered. Don't just negotiate. Master the art with the American Negotiation Institute. Click the link in the description to find out more. Elevate, negotiate and succeed. Absolutely. And I think this gives us a perfect opportunity to segue to the financial literacy part of it, because now we can see how this was meant to even the playing field and generate a little bit more fairness. So if we're monetizing your name, image and likeness, crazy thought, maybe you should have a piece of that. Well, great, so now you can. But the thing is, if you don't have financial literacy, you might accept a deal, but it might not be the right deal. And so can we break down some of the challenges that you've seen people, when it comes to negotiating without having that baseline financial literacy?

Absolutely. So especially when we talk about sports, the sports world, let's, let's get down to demographics. So take football, right? In football, you're dealing with a lot of athletes that do not come from the most affluent background. So they are not having the conversations around finances and money and money management, and they're just not. So you're dealing with, in some cases, I would say enough cases, if you're a high level athlete and you come from some of these backgrounds where the literacy is not there, unfortunately you get a lot of pressure placed on you where now you have adults, family members that are looking at you as, I don't want to use the word meal ticket, but they're looking at you to pretty much be the financial savior of the family. And when you're 15, 16, 17 years old, that's a lot of pressure to deal with when you're trying to get good grades and graduate high school and deal with girls or not deal with girls, whatever's going on in your personal life. So, you know, it's just a lot to juggle starting from a standpoint of one, understanding your relationship with your family. So I mean, it goes that deep because you're going to have to learn how and when to say no. And you're going to have to learn how to be responsible with your funds and then have some hard conversations with people. So that's one of the challenges that don't always come to the forefront because people aren't always in those rooms, in those spaces with the families. But that's one of the bigger challenges, starting with the lack of knowledge, growing to understand how these things work. As far as just the financial structure, I'm talking about from a government level, like, hey, I get my check. What Are taxes? How does it work all the way down to planning? You know, hey, you're getting X amount of dollars. How do I break that down? What should I put away? What should I be spending? So, you know, really just having these conversations so they understand from a philosophical standpoint how they want to manage their money going forward.

Yeah. This is so important. And again, have to reiterate the fact that you're negotiating these nil contracts from middle school to college. And we were not that mature back then. We were not making great decisions back then. And now we, we have people making decisions about tens of thousands of dollars, hundreds of thousands of dollars. When we are mentally and emotionally immature and dealing with a lot of pressure, we don't know what we don't know. And so this is one of those instances where it's so important to have somebody who has your back, who understands the finances, so they can help to guide you. Because there are a lot of instances where it might, on its face look like a really, really great opportunity. But then when you actually go down into the details of the numbers, you might be kind of putting yourself in a bad position without recognizing it.

Yeah. And to that point, it makes me remember I had a conversation with the guy. It was probably about two years ago in Puerto Rico on a random night. We were talking about a few different topics. We were talking about compensation, and it got down to people being unfairly compensated. And it was like this, right? He posed a question to me. He said, actually it wasn't directed towards me. It was actually directed towards another guy in the room. But it was. He was making a point to me. He points at the guy, he goes, now let me ask you a question. He said, yeah. So I told you I had an opportunity for you right now, and I was going to pay you $250,000 a year to come work for me. Is that good money for you? And the guy's eyes got big and he said, yeah. And he looks at me and said, that's my point. The point was we were talking about a million dollar opportunity.

Wow.

You know, it came down to people being unfairly compensated. And it was like, yeah, but that's more money than this guy' ever made. Yeah. So that is another aspect when you're talking about is this a good deal or not understanding your value and understanding economics from a larger scale is going to put you in a place where, no, you're not going for things that don't make sense. Because the truth of the reality is people don't want to pay You. So you have to understand what your value is to, again, be able to articulate that and get your fair share out of the deal.

That is such a good story. And again, especially, let's set the stage. Let's say if we're talking to somebody who comes from a position where they don't have that much money, if you dangle that much money in front of them, they're going to jump on that immediately because they'd never seen this amount of money before and it might never come again in their mind. And so they say, I don't care what. What's coming next. I need to jump on this right now. And so we. It's, again, understanding the numbers and having the savvy to. To ask questions and negotiate. That is. It's a completely different skill. And I know for you, when we think about the numbers, we can look at that at. In a logical type of sense. There's a lot of objectivity. So we can say what serves us well now, what serves us well in the future, what the best decision we can make. Now, we all know that understanding financially what the best decision is doesn't mean that we're going to make the best decision, and it doesn't mean that the people in your circle are going to agree that it's a good decision. So I'm assuming that there are situations where you are representing a client and you're helping them to negotiate a deal and you know what the good deal is. But they're getting pressure from their family telling them to do something different. So a lot of times when we think about an agent or somebody who's representing the athletes, we're thinking about them negotiating on their behalf to the opposite side. But can you tell us about those negotiations you have to have with the family members?

Absolutely. I'm glad you asked. I told you that my foray into this business started with training, which turned into career management. And that's because, well, let me paint a little bit of illustrated a little bit better. So back to my days working with Brick City. It's a football program out of Newark, New Jersey. Been tremendously successful. Sent a. I can't even count the amount of kids that they sent to Division 1 and also pro NFL, but great program out of Newark. And while I was there for a short time, I became like a fixer. So I had the job nobody wanted, which was talk to the parents. We got an issue. So I became that guy. I think really just because of my disposition and demeanor, I'm pretty chill and emotional. Intelligence. I was forced into having a high level because I guess I'm a cancer male. So coming up as a youngster, everything just used to. Why?

Why?

You know, I used to go crazy just not understanding why everything feels. Why do I feel. I feel, you know, navigating that and, you know, not losing my cool every time something happened. It took work. It took a lot of work. So because of that, I've developed a great level of emotional intelligence. So with that, talking to parents, talking to people, finding out, you know, what's their pain, what's going on, just being a good listener, understanding, you know, what their pains are, what their issues are, and just being able to paint some perspective around it where, you know, ultimately, you know, the goal is to just come out with a high five. So, you know, we able to do that for the most part. I think that I would say that helped me. It's something I've been doing for a while. But being in that position, you know, when you're dealing with an organization that has 300, 400 families in it and you're speaking to so many different people all the time about what's going on, you hone that skill. So, yeah, that's just a skill that's been honed over the years through experience of really just being able to talk to people and to make sense of what's going on, to offer different perspectives. People may be shouting at each other, and you have these two different perspectives, and neither one can see what's going on. And. And, you know, I'm here to kind of come in and try to decipher what the message actually is. So, yeah, that. That's what it is. It's really just being. Being a good listener, being able to listen to whatever. If you have conflicting sides, both sides, and there's usually some sort of breakdown in communication between the two. So if you can identify that and, you know, articulate things in a way that, you know, both sides can at least understand where the other side is coming from, you know, then we can usually get to some sort of understanding.

I love that. And so I love the fact that this can be a very emotionally heavy conversation. And then when we're talking about the numbers, that can be incredibly technical, especially when you're thinking about the numbers and comparing it to which college or opportunity you're going to take, and then balancing the objectivity of the numbers with the more nebulous side of, hey, is this the best school for you? Does this put you in the best position to make it to the League and those type of things. And we have all of these emotions coming through it. And the. The two things that you said, listening and understanding, that's really it. Because you didn't say, well, what I need to do is tell them the numbers, show them the math, and then if they don't understand, say it louder. That wasn't the solution. It wasn't about being right. It's about being human. Right. And connecting and recognizing that. A lot of times it's just, hey, people have wants and needs, and they basic human need is the desire to be understood. And so if you can take the time to understand the perspectives of one side and then understand the perspective of the other side, you might be the only person in the room that can almost be the mediator between those two interests. And a lot of times, it's not that they aren't on the same page or they necessarily disagree, but it's that they fundamentally don't understand. And you can bring them together and then move it forward.

They might be saying the same thing and they're at each other's throats just like he speaks patois and he speaks French.

It's just exactly different dialect. Different dialects, right. Yeah. And so you have to be a good translator man. I love that. I love that. Ira, this has been a masterclass. This has been a masterclass. And let's say, hypothetically, if there's somebody out there who's like, man, I need some aira in my life, there's something. There's a young athlete who I think needs to get in touch. What is the best way for them to get in touch with you?

So there's a few ways. I have a website. If you search my name, I could give the website, it's northwestern.com Ira Bell Gilford. But if there's a way that I know we could leave a link or something like that. I have a website. A lot of people follow me on social media. It's coachalchemistry. But The E is a 3, so a L, C H, 3 M I, S T. I usually post on there things I got going on. I'm always involved in camps and clinics and doing appearances. You know, obviously we're doing this right now. So just as far as the action, you can. You can see what's going on. I post my kids a lot, you know, the guys I work with, so you kind of see what they got going on. And one of the interesting things is caveat notice is that I've had my account for a few years, so it's always interesting for me. You know, you get these updates, hey, this was four years ago. Whatever. It's always cool to watch my athletes grow. Cause again, I'm dealing with students. So, you know, they're 12 and then they're 17 and they're 18 and they're in college and it's like, wow, you know, this guy's starting safety at usc. Like, I remember when he was, you know, eight years old and had boogers on his face. You know, that's the cool part, to watch him grow, you know.

Yeah, man, I appreciate you. This is really great. And listeners, we will put links in the descriptions for Ira's social and his website. Ira, thank you again for coming on the show. Really appreciate it.

Absolutely. It's been great. Thanks for having me.

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