Find Your Voice: Insights from Elaine Lin Hering

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything Live. In this special segment, we're sharing one of our LinkedIn Live events where listeners like you can join the conversation and shape the episode with your comments and questions. We've put a link to the event in the description of today's episode, but make sure to follow me on LinkedIn so you can join the conversation next time. I'm really glad you're with us today. We with over 10 million downloads and listeners from more than 180 different countries, it's dedicated listeners just like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of the American Negotiation Institute. Now, before we dive into today's episode, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives. At the American Negotiation Institute, we've crafted specialized keynotes and workshops tailored for those very needs. We've transformed the negotiation skills of professionals worldwide and we're eager to do the same for you. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And our goal is to help you improve your lives and the lives of those around you one difficult conversation at a time. Don't let another challenging conversation leave you second guessing. Click the link in the description to discover how we can help you find confidence in conflict, negotiate better deals, and have stronger relationships. Because in the world of business, every conversation counts. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Let's go ahead and get it started. So everybody, you know how we like to start these LinkedIn lives. We start with the, the insecure fear that the stream is not working. So please show us some love in the comments. Let us know if it's coming through so we see that it's coming in live here. So just let us know where you're coming in from. Where in the world are you listening from? And once we start to see a couple comments come through, then we'll get started. But yeah, we were just chatting about the, the book promotion process and Elaine asked if I was going to write another book. And I was like we need to have a clear and compelling reason to write another book because that is. It is not easy. Yeah.

The gift of this process has been having a clear and compelling reason. I won't jump us into the conversation until you are ready there, but clear and compelling reason to unlearn silence. Totally worth it.

Yes. This is Great. It's great because I know we've chatted on and off the podcast, too, and your why is powerful. It is powerful. That's why you're one of my favorites to come on, because I know there's so many folks in the audience who struggle with similar things. So it's really important to make sure that we're amplifying these voices.

Thanks for having me. And I see some chats coming through. Hi, Artita.

I love it. There we go.

Hype women. So grateful for this community.

Amazing. Well, great. Well, let's go ahead and get started. Elaine, welcome to Negotiate Anything Live. Thanks for joining us.

Thanks for having me.

So for those who don't know, can you let us know a little bit about yourself and what you do?

Yeah. Like you, like Kwame. I am trained as a lawyer, and then that took me down this path of leadership development, ended up teaching skills, tools, frameworks for negotiation, difficult conversations, and feedback for more than a decade, which actually led me to this topic of silence.

Yes. So let's talk about it, because when you think about the legacy of negotiation and negotiation excellence, I think when we talk about negotiation skills or even just having difficult conversations in general, a lot of the literature is built upon a foundation that people are going to have these conversations. And for many people, that's just not the case.

Yeah. That embedded assumption, not just that we're going to have the conversation, but that we can also identify our own interests.

Yes.

How I got here was wait. We spend a tremendous amount of time, energy, and resources teaching people skills to negotiate. Some people still don't do it. Why is that? Despite really sound frameworks, despite training, why is that? And what I landed on was silence. We've each learned to stay silent at work often. And in our relationships at home. We've been rewarded for staying silent. Right. We keep the peace. We don't rock the boat. We are easy to work with. We are good team players if we stay silent. And so if we want to actually negotiate, we need to wrestle and reckon with our relationship with silence and also be able to identify our needs rather than silence. Our own needs, our own interests, the ways that, too often the parties around us silence us.

What I love about this is that you approach it from the perspective of this is a learned behavior. And I think that's really powerful. Which goes to the title of the book, unlearning Silence. And, Elaine, I feel like we will be doing our audience here at this service if we didn't use you as a perfect case study for this so can you tell the listeners about your background and your journey to this realization? Because I think a lot of people would look at you and say, Harvard Association, Harvard trained lawyer and obviously good at this. She gets it. Negotiation expert. Right. So it must be easy for her. So I think if you can share a little bit about your story, it'll help people to connect a little bit more.

Yeah, absolutely. Never completely trust that what you see on social media or see from the outside is the whole story. Let's start there. Because there is. What parts of ourselves do we see? There are. What parts of ourselves do we gravitate toward? So my own story is that I'm the youngest daughter in an immigrant family from Taiwan, that in an Asian culture, you show respect by giving deference to your elders, by not pushing back. Even asking a question is disrespectful at times. So I was very, in Mandarin, the term is kwai, like very well behaved, follow those rules, very respectful. But what it teaches you over time is that you don't actually have needs of your own. That if you have needs in, in negotiation speak, we would call those interests. You are needy, which we don't want to be needy. That's not rewarded in society. And of course, being female, I'm supposed to being a mother, I'm supposed to be self sacrificial. I'm supposed to be considerate. I'm supposed to be unflappable and do everything with a smile. At least that's what life on Instagram tells me should be. And so where in all of that is there room for me? I also grew up professionally teaching concepts out of getting to yes and difficult conversations and doing that worldwide and thinking. Actually my value of what I added as a facilitator was only related to the concepts I was teaching rather than the person I was. So everyone says you write the book that you needed when you were younger. I would say I wrote Unlearning Silence because it is the book that I need now and that I need, that I continue to need. Unlearning Silence is a journey. But this journey of writing the book has taught me that I actually do have a voice. I do have thoughts that can influence the people around me, influence the relationships I'm in, and fundamentally influence the world around me.

This is great. And what we see here, listeners, is that there's an element of culture, strong gender dynamics here too. And we might just stop at the culture of Taiwan versus the United States. But then you have to think about the Ivy League culture you have to think about the culture within the negotiation community, because I know that I've felt a little bit of pressure sometimes to align to some of the more dominant forces when it comes to how negotiation is taught. The different methodologies, the tactics, the strategies, and the energy you bring to the conversation. And you come from a legacy, just from that Harvard program on negotiation, a very strong legacy with very robust rules and expectations for how negotiation should be taught. And so I really want to zone in on this because I think there's a deeper level here that I think can be really inspirational to the folks listening to this show because it takes a lot of courage to be able to step out of that realm and do things your own way. Because there. There might be some stigma in the negotiation industry to say, oh, wait, you're a negotiator, but you're afraid to talk. So can you go deeper into that ele of unlearning silence?

Yeah, I would say that the fear can always be there. And it is. So often people say you need to have more courage, you need to have more confidence, essentially fix yourself. Then you would get the promotion. Then you would be an effective negotiator. And my analysis and understanding across industries, across geographies and my own lived experience is it's not just about courage or confidence. It's about calculation. Is it worth it to me to say something to negotiate? And the beautiful thing about calculation is that we, as parties to the negotiation, can influence someone else's calculation. If you knew that your manager, your spouse, your colleague would hear you when you shared your perspective, not only would they hear you, but they would respect you and they would reward you for sharing what you thought? How different then would your calculation be? How much more likely would you be to show be to actually show up authentically or unfiltered, to add your thoughts so that we're not just getting the loudest thoughts in our conversations at work, but the best ones. I will also say that I see this work unlearning silence as part of the legacy of the program on Negotiation of continuous learning. Right. The canon was never supposed to be static. The canon was never supposed to be here is how you negotiate the end. We're done. It's how do we continue to all get better at our craft? And there are ways in which different voices aren't always represented in that canon. So I'll pop in two things. If people haven't read Whitney Benz's article or interview with Alonzo Emery and ABA Dispute Resolution section a couple years ago on negotiation it really challenges why do we listen to certain people in terms of negotiation advice, but we don't listen to other people? And where are our sources of collective wisdom? Where are we drawing them from? And also plug Damali Peterman's book that is coming out in a couple of months, Negotiating While Black, which really bucks this trend of mimic me as the prescriptive prescription for negotiation and says our uniqueness is our superpower. So lots of different resources out there to continue this legacy of continuous learning.

Hello my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question. Have you ever wondered how to elevate your team's negotiation game and how you can help the folks on your team have better, difficult conversations? At the American Negotiation Institute, we offer transformative keynotes and workshops tailored to empower professionals with top tier negotiation and conflict resolution skills. Whether it's a keynote for your next event or hands on training for your team, we've got you covered. Don't just negotiate. Master the art with the American Negotiation Institute. Click the link in the description to find out more. Elevate, negotiate and succeed. Mm, that is great for multiple reasons, selfishly, because now I just got some more podcast guests, so thank you. I appreciate that.

And she's funny.

This is good. I love that the audience loves that too. And I think for us, all of us can can look at this and recognize there are some embedded assumptions that we have just absorbed as truth in our lives. And so whether it is in a difficult conversation, we assume that people aren't going to take us seriously, or we assume that they're not going to listen, or in our careers, we assume that our unique contribution, since we haven't heard it from anybody else in this particular way, means that it is some way invalid. It helps us to challenge those assumptions and recognize. Wait a second, there is some validity too. And I also think there is an assumption that if we shoot our shot, if we have these conversations, if we let ourselves be heard, the consequences would be so dire that we won't be able to recover. Can you speak a little bit to that one?

I want to start with the assumptions that we've internalized. We didn't just make them up. So for anyone who's starting to blame or self flagellate, right, like it's my fault, it's not your fault, right? These are the messages that we receive day in, day out, sometimes from childhood, up until now, often daily from our managers, from our co workers. There is such gravity within an organization, within a team, to Mimic to conform. And often the advice around influencing is look and sound like other people. Because research shows that we're more likely to want to work with, more likely to like someone, and more likely to say yes to someone who looks and sound like us. So it's not just that we made it up that we would end up feeling like silence. Either silencing ourselves or keeping our mouths shut is the safer or more beneficial option. It makes sense why silence is a survival tactic in so many work contexts. And I want to highlight that unlearning silence isn't just about unlearning our own silence. It is also a call to well intentioned leaders to say, in what ways might I be unintentionally silencing the very people I claim and aim to support? That's chapters five and chapters nine of the book of that awareness and that action. But all of that is to acknowledge that we all together are in a contributive system. I cannot say that it is just on Kwame to find and use his voice, because whether he finds and uses it is related to how I treat him, how I show up for him, whether I challenge or perpetuate the operating assumptions that he has from operating in this world.

What I love about that is that it helps us to recognize the bigger picture and recognize also how after we get get to this point where we feel more comfortable speaking, how then we could use our voice to empower other people. And when you think about it through the systemic perspective, we can recognize, oh wait, now I can use these negotiation skills to create positive change in my organization and my community in a way that allows other people to feel more comfortable letting their voice be heard as well.

Totally. Silence breeds silence. The more we see other people staying silent, the more we see them not negotiating right. We look at an organizational system. If you are new to the system, if you are more junior, we inherently look around and say, how do things work around here? Because I don't want to be the one to step out of line. I don't want to be the one to dip my toe into who knows what. And so I'm observing to see, do other people push back here? Those EVPs, do they push back on the CEO or not? Is that appropriate here? Is that rewarded here? And our brains often subconsciously do the calculation of oh, it's not worth it. But if silence breeds silence, voice also breeds voice. The more we see people pushing back, asking questions and that there is a positive response, the more it is normed, the more it is normalized. Each of us have a contribution to whether we are building a culture of silence or a culture of voice on our teams, in our organizations and in this world.

Now, let's say hypothetically, there's somebody out here listening, saying, you know what, Elaine? I realized I have been silencing myself, and I want to unlearn silence. Other than buying your book, which should be the next step, how do we operationalize this?

Yeah, I love that question. Please do buy the book, because I'm going to give you step one. I'll give you step one and two, and then there's a reason there's a book, to follow it up and really operationalize it. So I want you to have that richness and context and support. Step one is to accurately diagnose the situation. So often not being heard has been diagnosed as, you're not speaking up enough or in the right way. Right. Going back to, you're not courageous enough, you need more confidence, you need more assertiveness, go fix yourself versus is. There's this thing called silence that we've all learned and that we often all perpetuate. And so what assumptions have I internalized over time about who gets to speak about what's appropriate? What of those things have I verified in my current context and system, and which of those are legacy from my old team, my own old workplace? So step one is awareness, which is why the first half of the book is structured as awareness. And step two is action. The first action step would be to recultivate your voice. If you're wondering, do I have a voice? What does my voice sound like? I've been so busy and so consistent and so rewarded for solving for what does my manager want? Or what does leadership want? Or what's the party line that I forget? I might even have unique value add thoughts of my own. The first question I would ask myself in any conversation, and this is internal work, is really just, what do I think? Not what does my manager think, what does my mom think? Not what does my spouse want me to think, but what do I think? And just notice that, right as you're listening to my conversation with Kwame right now, what do you think? What's your reaction? What's coming up for you? And in asking that question repeatedly, you recultivate the notion and the awareness that you have your own voice, that you have your own perspective. And then you get to the decision of when, where, and how. If you want to share that with other people.

I love this step of asking yourself, what do I think? And the Reason I love it is because it seems so obvious that people overlook it. So there is a lot of profundity behind that question, not only in the nuance that can be discovered through asking that question and truly exploring it, but also by exploring why it is that we don't truly take the time to ask ourselves what we want. Can you get into that a little bit?

Well, because it's scary, Kwame. Right. And we are on high alert for anything that is fearful, that has fear, that has uncertainty, particularly in this day and age. This call and this invitation to unlearning silence is fundamentally disruptive not just to our teams and our relational dynamics, but to me. And if we are all moving through the world at hyperspeed, who has time to open up a can of worms that actually is messy about what messages I might have internalized? And so at some level, it is more efficient in the short term to go through the world on autopilot. We know how to do that. We click into the next meeting, done check. We reply to that email, done check. Now, there's short term benefit to that, but I'd argue that there is long term cost. Because the question for me and the invitation to each of us is what life do we want to live? How do we want to use our voice for leadership and life? And that our voice is not just the words that we say in a meeting, but it is how we move through the world. It is where we put energy toward what are the causes, what is the. The output? What is the impact that we are looking for? All of that takes reflection, takes at a minimum, a pause to even ask the question. It is fundamentally uncomfortable, but also has the potential to be incredibly rewarding.

Yes, yes. And I can definitely respect and appreciate the fact that it can be scary, because I know every for me, I'm thinking about in my life. The thing that is challenging about introspection is that you might not always like what you find and then you feel obligated. Oh, man. Now that I found this, I have to do something about it. It's a lot easier to just pretend like everything is okay and just keep on floating. Even though we recognize that sometimes we're floating over that cliff. But at this moment, in this time, I'm still floating. I know it's not going to take me to a good place, but let me worry about that later.

Ignorance is bliss. Ignorance exists for a reason I don't want to believe. And this is based on a data set that is qualitative research. And don't think Most people would say, I want to move through the world in ignorance or just floating in my hypothetical world. If we put it in really practical terms, is also short term bias. Right? We're focused on the short term versus the long term. And yet impact is measured in the long term. Impact is also happening in the short term, but is also the question of are we having the impact that we want? So I'd argue and break it down in the book, that it doesn't have to be this deep seated, navel gazing, multi day long, silent retreat. It is literally in your next meeting, in your next zoom call, starting to ask the question to yourself, what do I think? And then you get to make the choice of whether you share it. Because silence is at work. Whether or not we admit it, whether or not we acknowledge it is impacting us, it is impacting the people around us. The difference between silence that is additive or oppressive is agency. So what choices are you making today? Are they conscious choices or unconscious choices? Either way, the choice is up to you and you're actually making one.

I really appreciate that you've made this so actionable and also so achievable because you're right. If you say, okay, well, do I need to go on a meditation retreat and achieve self actualization in order to accomplish this?

Then does it get me away from my kid for a little bit? If so, sign me up. But that's not realistic.

Exactly, exactly. And that's what's so great about this. Because we can all we can. This resonates with us in different ways, in different reasons, in probably in different capacities within our lives. Because I'd love you to speak to the compartmentalization that happens in our lives where we might be comfortable allowing ourselves to be heard in one aspect of our lives, but in another aspect we might really struggle. And that juxtaposition of different outcomes and different inputs can be really challenging. And so just recognizing and appreciating the fact that everybody deals with this and then recognizing and appreciating the fact that the first step can and probably should be quite small is really empowering.

Let me go a step further, which is to be really clear, because as lawyers, we like to, you know, for, for the avoidance of doubt. Unlearning silence is not about saying everything all the time to everyone. The world is too noisy and complex for that. But unlearning silence is being intentional and conscious of when we're choosing or utilizing silence or when it is chosen and imposed upon us. So chapter three of the book is actually an entire chapter called When Silence Makes Sense. We know that our workplaces in this world is complex. We know that for many of us silence is a strategy for survival. Silence is also is essential for self care to make it through to the next day and to not let that silence, that utility of silence give ourselves a pass for living out the values that we hold for influencing the world toward the way that we want to see it become.

And I can hear a lot of people breathing a sigh of relief or.

The avoidance of doubt. Rewind, listen again. Let's be really clear about what we're saying and what we're not saying.

Yes, it's so important because I think these messages can become over broad when you don't have that specificity. Because it can be disempowering for two extreme ways. So it could be disempowering saying wow, I need to say everything that's on my mind. That's impossible. I guess I'm doomed to be silent forever.

We don't have energy or bandwidth for that. And also we don't want to be like those people who are already too loud in dominating the conversation.

Exactly. That's. It's not a, it's not a lifestyle that we even want to have. And then let's say somebody says, you know what, I'm going to live that lifestyle. And we do it for a while and then we realize, wait, I have unmuted myself to the extreme and I don't enjoy it and nobody else does and everything got worse. So there has to be that middle ground.

Totally. And let me, if I haven't already, be clear or repeat a definition. Voice is not just the words that you use in a meeting. Voice is how you move through the world. And so this applies across lines of introversion, extroversion. This applies in terms of whether you, you are more inclined and more able to speak in real time, talk in real time versus text or type. So often in our workplaces, the ability to speak in three succinct bullet points with no ums, with just the right of amount of emotion that it seems like you care, but not too much emotion, that you lose credibility. And by the way, if you're femme presenting, you also need to smile but not too much really limits the our ability to hear each other. If the prerequisite for sharing your thoughts, insights, your intel is to sound like that we are going to as leaders miss out on essential information. And the value proposition for well intentioned leaders of not missing out on that information is that if you're not hearing your people, you are living in a skewed sense of reality. Remember, ignorance was bliss. That's what you're choosing. It's blissful until it blows up. Let's have the conversation now. So we have the opportunity to course correct.

Absolutely. And folks who are out there listening live, I see you in the chat. Remember, you can ask questions. We see what you're saying. So if you have any questions for Elaine, let us know because we want to engage with you as much as possible. That really lifts this up. And we have a comment here. This is an incredibly brilliant topic. The book sounds like a must have. I couldn't have said it any better myself. This is great. And Elaine, one of the things that I really appreciate about your voice in this industry is that you are unique and you lean into that authenticity. And one of the things that I realize is that it's really hard for people to do that. We hear all of these messages about be yourself. And the reason why we keep hearing it is because it is so profoundly hard to be ourselves in a world that is sending us messages telling us that we're not enough or we should conform. So in your life, how have you found your authentic voice and found the confidence and courage to. To let it be heard?

This is where I say, I wrote the book that I needed. Because even in this process, it has been coaching me toward my aspirational self rather than the self I sometimes wake up feeling like. And it came down to a calculation of I can continue to try to be a good or. Or even great imitation of someone else, or I could actually just be me. And I realize that that often is a radical act in circles and in context in which authenticity and vulnerability are luxury goods for people with privileged identities. But if I have one life to live, then how can I normalize different voices to build that culture of voice? Because voice inspires voice. So I, you know, you see me on LinkedIn doing things for the first time that I never thought I'd do. I'm. I'm an educator, I'm a facilitator. I apparently am a writer. But filming reels, right? Having, like filming an unboxing video, I have a whole storyline about that because it's awkward and it's different. But even to notice in the moment, where is this contextualized, oh, I'm doing something new. And because I'm doing something new, it is awkward, it is uncomfortable. That's just part of the calculation. But I came to the same calculation that let me back up. I Think people say to me, elaine, you're so courageous. I don't really see it that way. I appreciate what I hear in the intent there. For me, it's a calculation of I have incredible opportunity from the places I have worked, from the school that I went to, from Penguin Random House, betting on this book. Women of color don't get book deals from traditional publishers very often. And if you Google leadership books, best leadership books, it is all white men and then maybe Brene Brown on page one, depending on which browser you're using. So to me, to have this opportunity is one that I'm deeply humbled by and want to make good on the opportunity. Right. We shoot our shots to say, I think there's something here that has helped clients believe that they are not the problem and to see a way forward that is more than just do it or have more confidence. If we can see the situation more accurately, we can solve it more effectively. And we started this conversation by talking about a compelling reason for a book. My reason for this book is wanting, belonging, dignity and justice for every single human being. My reason and my hope for this book is that it helps those of us who have long been silenced by the people around us and the systems we're part of to feel seen, known and heard. It is also an invitation to well intentioned leaders, which I believe is all of us, to show up more with that positive impact rather than some of the negative disconnects that we so often experience. So that's my hope, that's my invitation, and invite everyone to join us on this journey of unlearning silence.

Oh, and we are on board, Elaine. And that was so powerful that there's a part of me that wants to let that be the conclusion. But. But I refuse because you're using your voice. There is a question here. So Jeanette says, what tips do you have for being able to speak up at meetings and not be interrupted? Oh, Elaine, this is a tricky one.

I love this question. Let's start with norms, because what I hear in there and is always embedded in the question is, what can I do? What can I do so other people behave better. Let me start by saying it's not you, it's now. There's a cultural component, with great research of how much overlap different cultures have in speaking over each other or how much space you need to leave so you can look into that further. But the places I go are actually process pieces. So process is how we have our conversations. One is, do we normalize, not interrupting people? And if that is just a group norm of how we operate, then it's actually not on you. The second is this is a call for allies to say, hey, I want to hear what Jeanette has to say. Let her finish. Right. So that you don't have to be doing the disrupting in the moment. Those two, the norms and the allyship of someone else doing the disrupting, to me, are the most powerful pieces based on who in the conversation. You know, if you look at the Obama administration, they had a pact amongst women in attribution of ideas so that other people wouldn't steal men, wouldn't steal their ideas and claim them as theirs. I think same thing here of how do we show up for each other to say, I want to hear what Jeanette has to say. Let her finish. So that Jeanette doesn't have to do it in the moment. And if we're each doing that for each other, then we collectively build that norm, but also take the pressure off of ourselves.

Oh, that's powerful. Powerful. And let's put up that comment from Terry, too. I really like what Terry said there, Simone. I think collectively, as women in America, we're starting to realize that we have the same right to speak as men and are pushing back to men in a room who feel they have more of a right to speak. And I think that's powerful. It's a growing trend. And speaking as a man here who wants to be an ally, I think there are a lot of men who struggle with allyship because they're struggling with balancing being an ally with also the fear of sounding patronizing. And so if there's a man in a room who wants to be an ally, who sees Jeanette speaking up in a meeting and then people continuously interrupting, how could a man stand up and be an ally in that situation while doing it a way that doesn't seem patronizing to the women in the room?

Yeah, I think it's exactly what we just talked about, which is, hold on, I want to hear. I want to hear that person finish. It actually doesn't matter what gender the person is, although we know that interruption happens disproportionately to women. But the intervention is the same, which is really. Hold on. Or can we go back to that idea? Let's go back to that idea, because that was really interesting to me. So there is that in. In the moment intervention of pause. I want to hear what Jeanette has to say. That's personal. Right. I am taking up space as a man or as a woman or non binary. Right. I want to hear what they have to say. So stop the conversation. That's just a process move. For those of us who are mediators, that is a process move of who gets to speak when, in what order, it's not attached to gender, and then the other is using your social capital. So I get this question a lot, particularly with English second language folks. Right. And I have empathy for this because you're thinking in a different language and still translating and often penalized because you don't fit into that mold that we display described of what voice and leadership is supposed to sound like in corporate America. The move for allies here is to say, you know, I've invited Joelle to this meeting because she has or they have the most nuanced take on this topic I've ever heard. You are giving them the platform wrapped up in your endorsement, lending your social capital. So often people say, you know, I feel so badly for my colleague. They're not getting invited to the meeting. I'm empathizing with them in my office. Okay, great. That private empathy is nice. We get a little bit of oxytocin. But better is public endorsement.

That's powerful. And I think my question also demonstrates an embedded assumption as well that there could be. And I guess there is a wrong way to do this, for sure. But I think the over analysis in the moment can hold us back from being an ally, because a lot of times these conversations move very quickly, and then you can sit there and get stuck with this analysis, and then the time has moved on. And so I think it's, for me especially, it's very empowering to recognize that removing gender from the analysis in this case can help us to be an ally, because this is something that everybody deals with to a certain extent. But like you said, the studies and lived experience demonstrates that women experience it more. And when we think about this as a process, and we think about this as norms and culture, we recognize that culture evolves and it changes, especially as we introduce more diversity into spaces in order to be more inclusive. There have to be some micro shifts that move in order for people to not feel unintentionally alienated in the workplace. And so what advice do you have for somebody who wants to actually negotiate that process where they're in a conversation and they say, you know what, let's slow things down. How do we approach these conversations? Is interrupting. Okay, let's get this on the table. What do you think about that?

Yeah, I think you've got a couple of levers. Let me also go back to the, in the moment, overthinking it. Because the spotlight effect is real and impacts us across gender. Right. Whatever our gender and identity, most of us think spotlight effect, meaning we think more about ourselves than most other people do about us. So we're sitting there overthinking it. Else really notices. Are there bad ways to say it or worse ways to say it? Sure. But the goal isn't to come up with the perfect way. Perfectionism is another way that we silence ourselves so much as what's the next experiment? What is a way? And okay, it didn't come out exactly the way you wanted it. You can also recover from that, right? Particularly if you're a white male and you have more privilege in that context. What's your next step? What is the recovery after the experiment? So it's not a one shot deal, right? It's not shoot your shot and then you lose it. Going back to norms, what are the ways of establishing those norms? A couple of levers are just on our team, what are the group norms that we're building? So often in team building exercises, people come up with team norms of operating agreements, right? How are we going to work together? That is a stake in the ground that says, this is our aspirational way of working with our, with each other. And it gives us an anchor to go back to. So when someone violates it, then you can say, hey, don't we have that norm of this seemed inconsistent. What would we do differently? Or have we evolved the norm? The thing about process is to realize that there is always a process happening. And if we don't actively design the process, we default to the process. The preference differences, the patterns, the habits of the people with the most organizational and institutional power. Those meetings that are so painful for everybody, that don't seem to have an agenda and aren't productive, they happen because we didn't design the meeting. So I would argue that everyone actually has the standing or the right to say, hey, could we do this? Or what about that? And to use your preferred communication medium. So that could be emailing ahead of time to say, let's try something new. Or in the meeting to say, hey, what if we pause here? Or you know, we've been going at this for a while, can we take a break? And when we come back for the break, let's start here. Often we relegate, delegate that role of meeting facilitation to the person we think owns the meeting. And often they don't actually think they own the meeting. So then no one's really managing the meeting. No one's leveraging this incredibly powerful tool of designing the process of how we work together. So in the book, I talk about three levers for voice. That often when we think about using your voice, we're thinking about, what do I have to say? What is the substance, the terms and conditions of the negotiation? Well, we miss out on the lever of relationship. We can talk about that. And we miss out on the lever of process, which again, in the mediation context, you're hiring someone to do that. But even if you're not in a formal mediation with a mediator, professional mediator you've hired, you can leverage the same tools to fundamentally influence the outcome of the negotiation and the conversation because you're paying attention to it and influencing it.

I love that. This is great. And Elaine, there's. There's one question I've been. I've been hesitating to ask this one. I think this is the toughest one. Okay, so let's say there's somebody in the audience who's really struggling with this, and they've listened to this and everything's resonating with them. What book would you recommend that they read to help them take the next step?

This feels like a trap question, but I'm gonna answer it as honestly as I know how.

You better answer it the right way. Okay.

Feels like a test. There's a book but I wrote called Unlearning Silence. How to speak your mind, unleash talent, and live more fully. It comes out into the world stateside March 19th in the UK and territories March 21st Spanish translation coming April 11th in all formats. If you're listening to an audiobook, you're gonna warning it's more of my own voice, but invite you to leverage that resource. It is really written and intended as prescriptive. Prescriptive nonfiction. So that we each unlearn the ways we silence ourselves, the things that we can influence and control. And an invitation to all well intentioned leaders to actually start supporting the people you lead rather than silencing them. Kwame, did I get the answer right?

Yes. Thank you, thank you, thank you. This is great. Elaine, thank you so much. Listeners in the chat, please give Elaine some love and bonus points. If you tag somebody who needs to hear this today, let them know. Elaine, thank you so much for coming back on the show. Really appreciate it.

Kwame.

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