From Good to Great: Elevate Your Negotiation Skills with Dr. Lynne Maureen Hurdle

Hello my friends, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. This show is produced by the American Negotiation Institute and with over 5 million downloads and listeners in over 180 countries, listeners just like you have made this the number one negotiation podcast in the world. Hi, my name is Kwame Christian and I am the founder and CEO of the American Negotiation Institute here at A&I we believe that the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations and we are passionate about providing you with the best content that will help you to make your difficult conversations easier, both at work and at home. Lastly, I want to remind you that we offer consulting and conduct trainings both virtually and in person all around the world. Our focus is in three main areas. First, negotiation and conflict resolution. Second, leadership and lastly, diversity, equity and inclusion. Check the link in the description below to learn more about how we could work with you and your team. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Lynn, thanks for joining us today.

Oh, my pleasure. I'm so happy to be here. We have such great conversations always, always.

So I'm excited to share this one with the audience. And so how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do since the.

Last time you see me, I've received an honorary doctorate and I am so I'm now Dr. Lynn Maureen Hurdle and I take that really seriously. Thank you. Because I know I've earned years in the work of conflict resolution, really helping people to have the everyday to the difficult conversations, helping people be more productive in the conversations that they have with each other no matter what the setting is. So I've spent a lot of time traveling all over the world working in different settings and helping people to communicate more effectively and to also set up programs and write curriculum for folks and work plans that really incorporate how to have conversations that allow people to move forward in whatever it is that they are trying to achieve right through conversation and also how to have more conversation because I think we're having less and we need to have more and recognizing while there are different ways to communicate, we need to understand the effectiveness of each way, right? So everything from emailing to texting to the phone, which not a lot of people want to do these days and even this right being having conversations on video. So that's what I do. I'm also a mom. I am mother of two grown sons and I brought them up in the work and really appreciate that they really understand how to have the conversations even when it's difficult for them to do that. And I'm an author. I'm a speaker.

Yeah, this is great, Lynn. We will. We'll put links to everything. Your company, your book, and everything in the podcast and your last interview that you had on the show as well. I want to focus in on a couple of the things that you said. You want to make sure that in these conversations, people are moving forward and they're paying attention to the way they're approaching it, to make sure that they are effective in the way they do this.

Yeah.

And what's so interesting about this is how it seems that in some of our most difficult conversations, those things are lost.

We.

We get lost in the process because we forget, hey, the goal is to move forward toward what a goal. And whether or not we're moving toward that goal will determine whether or not we're effective. But a lot of times people don't have the mindset or skill set necessary to do that. Which ties into what we're here to talk about today, which is something you mentioned at the end of what you just said, too, is that we're having fewer of these important conversations. So we're having fewer of them, and it seems like we're having them less effectively, too.

Yes.

And so tell us a little bit more about that.

Yeah, well, you know, one of the things that I think is that people do not decide what they really want out of the conversation that they're about to have. And, yes, sometimes we get thrown into conversation. We're not expecting that we're going to have this particular conversation. So it's rather on the spot. But there's a lot of times when people plan conversations and they really don't decide what is my goal here, so it gets decided for them. And ultimately, that decision is my goal is to be right and to prove the other person wrong. And that, honestly, that's the worst goal that you can have. I honestly have to say that I think that there are goals that are very different from, that can be effective and also can help us learn. So it could be that my goal is to listen right. More than I talk. My goal is to be heard, and then also to hear them as well. My goal is for us to move forward in some way, whether it's just one step. That's my goal. My goal is to really like the way I am handling this conversation because it's not hurting, it's actually helping. Right. And that one is a difficult one for a lot of people, because you can come out of a conversation and feel like wow, that really failed. Like, I didn't get my point across or they didn't hear me at all. But do you like the way you handle that conversation? Because if you do, and honestly not, oh, I love that I yelled at them or I told them off, I'm talking about. No, I really did listen. I really did try and use some skills to have this conversation. I really did try to move us forward together. If that is what you come out of that conversation with, then chances are you're going to try again, whether it's with the same person or whether it's another conversation, because you really appreciate, hey, you know what? I like that I actually handled that well. And therefore, I can do this again. And I want to do this again so I get better, better at having these conversations. So I feel like people are so afraid to make a mistake or to not be right or not be believed that they do not have the conversations. Because it can't be that they're afraid that this is just hard. It's too hard. We're not having the small conversations. Hey, you know the milk on the counter, I know you like to leave it there. For me, it really bothers me. We're not having that. We're just stomping off or holding it in and deciding they're never going to listen to me. And so for me, I feel like people are just dismissing it a lot of the time. I'm not going to have the conversation, or I had it once, they didn't listen. I'm not having it again.

I think you've given us a really helpful way to look at this. Just asking yourself, how did I handle myself in that conversation? That's so powerful. But I think a lot of us, we fail to do that regularly. And I don't want to assume that we all know how to effectively evaluate how we handled ourselves in that conversation. So when somebody is asking themselves this question after a conversation, what are some of the things that they should look for?

Yeah, I think you want to look for. I'm hoping that more and more people are getting the skills in conflict resolution, because even just some basic skills is so important. So that when you're asking yourself this question, you can ask yourself, did I use the skills that I've been taught or the skills that I've been learning? Right. That's one question. One question. If you don't have skills that I think is really important, did I listen more than I spoke? Because we tend to listen only to the point where we wish to interrupt. And the Reason we wish to interrupt is to prove that our point is right and prove it without even being able to measure it against their point. Because we really haven't listened to their point. We've only listened up to the place where, oh, yeah, I can get in there, right? They just said this. So now I can say this and I can prove my point. But we have to be able to listen effectively, really hear and understand what's being said. And then with listening skills, I always believe in the power of paraphrasing, because people really believe that they have understood what the person has said. And when you paraphrase it back, when I listen to people when I work with them, they have only understood what they've already assumed the person meant by what they've said. They really haven't understood what the person is saying. And that can take some back and forth in a conversation. It isn't always an immediate understanding of what someone has said and what they mean by what they say. So did you ask clarifying questions? Right. Did I try to really understand by asking questions to make sure that before I responded to something they said that I asked them what they really meant by that? And what is it? Would you mind saying that again? Or here's what I've heard or I think that I've heard. Did I get that right? Right. That's some back and forth there before you even get to say what it is that you want to say in this conversation. So at that, did you listen more than you talk? Did you ask clarifying questions? Did you get a better understanding of what they meant by what they said? Right. Did you push aside any assumptions that you had in your head and really leave yourself open to understanding and believing that this is what they meant and this is what they were saying to you? And then did you try to move ahead by going to a place where maybe both of you could agree or where you could see their point and ask them, could they see your point in any way? Because we don't tend to ask that. And sometimes they can see our point and sometimes we can see theirs. But we haven't told each other that. We've just continued to try to make them see our whole picture as opposed to maybe they can see a little bit of it.

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They don't have to come all the way to my side, but did they see at any point some of what I was saying? Right. And did I see some of where they were saying, is the conversation happening or are we just name calling and getting nowhere? Right. Because that's the other thing too. Did I allow for volume, even though I was afraid as long as the volume was giving me information? A mediator from way back in the day, and I mediated primarily in communities of color. And when I was trained as a mediator, I was told, anytime they start to, the voices start to raise. Cut it off, right? Jump in and cut it off. And I'm like, you know, my people aren't really like that. Like, I don't want to jump in because I know that they could have raised voices, but they could be talking about the conflict. And you did such and such, and I really didn't like that. Now, that may be at a high pitch, a high volume, but it's giving me information. So as a person who may not like when high volume happens, can you sit with that discomfort in the name of, I'm getting information from this person, so I'll sit with this because then I can come in and I can paraphrase back and then respond to what they've given to me. So I think that there's a lot to be able to look at. And did you walk away feeling like I really did give it my best effort, Like, I really did try? I have to say that I learned that late in my career, probably 20 years into my career of, you know what, I've got to be happy with how I handled that. And once I started to do that, it was just, it was a whole nother realm of being able to do the work because I could sit back with myself and say, hey, I didn't get to where I could. I wanted to get. But I really do like the way I handle that. So I'm going to try it again. Right? And I will also say that there are lots of people that said to me they like the way I handle it too. Like, they were angry or whatever, but when they came back around, said, I talk to you again because it wasn't bad. It wasn't. It wasn't. You didn't make me feel like I was stupid or a horrible person.

I think that's important. That really matters. I think some of the difficult conversations I'm proudest of come back from my time as a media where even. Especially in those times where they didn't get a deal, but they say, hey, I really appreciate the way that you handled yourself in there and I appreciate how you respected me and I respect the process. I think that's so important. So if we get wrapped up in the outcome and the outcome alone, of course that is an important metric to keep in mind, but it's ultimately disempowering because we're not in full control of that outcome. But what you've outlined for us is asking yourself, how did I handle that situation? It gives us an opportunity to pay attention to what is within our control.

That's right.

You can be proud of your performance regardless of the outcome. And what I really love is the fact that you've given us some objective metrics that we can use to determine that it's not all feel like, how did I do? I did great. You know that's not it, right? Because sometimes you didn't or how did I do? Oh, man, that was terrible. Well, you asked a lot of great questions. You listened, you showed respect. Based on your paraphrasing, they said that you understood it and the deal just wasn't meant to be made. You didn't get a deal because it wasn't possible in that situation, but you did the very best that you could. So you can be proud of how you handle that situation. Just recognizing that regardless of the outcome, we can still carry ourselves in a way that helps us to be proud in our performance. That can give us so much confidence because we can go into that conversation and say, my only job is to leave this conversation while being proud of how I performed in this conversation. I can't control what they're doing. I can't fully control the outcome, but I can control that.

Yes. And you said something really important too. The times where I have said, no, you did not handle it well. This is why. Right. There have been several opportunities right in the moment for me to go back to that person and say, wait a minute, I really did not handle that well. May I try again? And I'm going to tell you that I have never been turned down. And when I tried again, I Made sure that I handled it better than I did before. And I actually was able to get the person to say, I appreciate that you did that. And to do what I was asking them to do. I remember one time in particular, someone had my check was not ready. As a consultant, it's always an issue around money, right? And my check was not ready. And I was getting ready to leave town, and I had been promised this check for months and finally was going to be given to me. And I went down to the office and it was almost closing time. And they said, we do not have it. And I said, well, you said. And I just went into this place, and the woman just looked at me because she knew she had the power. And she just looked at me and said, well, it's almost time to close and you are not getting your check. And I walked to the door and I said to myself, how'd you do? And I said, I did not do well. Not because I didn't get my check, but because I yelled at that woman. And I let my emotions. The fact that I'm trying to get out of town and you haven't paid me for months, like that was what was riding, right? That's what was really speaking in that conversation. I went back to her and I apologize. And I said, here's why, right? Here's why I came out like that, and I'm really sorry. And she ran with me to the office where they were supposed to write my check, and I got my check. And that's just one example. But it was just really a beautiful process to say, hey, yeah, it was wrong that I didn't get paid, but I was also in the wrong in the way that I tried to get them to give me that check, right? And she could hear that and appreciate that and then wanted to help me. So that's the other thing, folks. You gotta. If you can do it in the moment and recognize that you didn't do it well, I encourage you to then go back and say. And own it, right? Can we start again? Here's what I meant to say, right? I love that part of the process, too. Either way, for me, if I did great or if I didn't do well, and then I can own it and try to go back and see if they'll accept a redo. I think it's magnificent to watch that process work.

Oh, there's so much in here, Lynn, to explore. First thing, sometimes we make a mistake and we do a check afterwards, and we're like, yeah, I made a mistake. But then we're either too embarrassed to go back and address it, or sometimes we operate on misplaced hope and say, well, I hope they missed it. Here's something I want you all to know. They didn't miss it. They know. They know you messed up, too. Right?

Right.

And you've saved them the headache of trying to convince you. Because a lot of times, if somebody does something wrong, there's something emotional within you that says, I need to tell them about themselves. I want them to know. And if you come and you say, hey, let me tell you about myself real quick, I was off on that, and I apologize, that's incredibly powerful. And also, you're just mobilizing the power of humility. And humility doesn't mean that you're submitting yourself to the power of somebody else in an unstrategic type of way. A lot of humility just comes from being willing to make an accurate assessment of what happened and letting other people know that, yeah, I messed up. That wasn't my best. You deserve better. And I apologize. And now I want to make sure that people don't take this as a move. This is not a move.

No.

Not abusive. And then come back because I want to give that disclaimer before I say this next thing. But when you told me that story, Lynn, I realized that there have been times where I've done that and I'm batting a thousand. It's like 100% of the time. It doesn't mean that I get what I want 100% of the time. That's just not possible in life. But I will say that every single time I come back and I come back faster and I go through a play by play, I'm like, hey, I think I was off on that. And I apologize. The relationship always improves.

That's right.

The fact that I make a mistake. And like you said, the thing that people are afraid of the most is making a mistake. But what they fail to realize is that a lot of times that mistake and owning up to it is exactly what moves you forward.

That's correct. That's right. And the people can relate to it. And you're right. It's not a move. It's real. It's about, wow, even I'm surprised how I handled that. Right. And I got to come back and say, I'm sorry. Right. This was not how I wanted to do it. I've done it. My son and my niece were 5 and 6 years old, and I yelled at them because I was afraid, because I was Driving and there was a storm and I'm terrified driving at night in a storm. So it came out, you are making too much noise and I'm sorry I brought you. And of course they were crushed. And then when I explained to them what was happening, that I was afraid, my 5 year old son said, I've been afraid. I understand, Mommy. Like, yes. Because they can also relate. I think that's something that people see in themselves too, is that, yes, you made a mistake that they probably made at some point in their life too. And the fact that you could come back and own it, number one, they don't get that enough from people, so they appreciate that. And number two, the humanity in them understands that because they've been there and done that.

Oh, let's, let's focus on that word, humanity. That's so important because both of us here are conflict resolution experts.

Yes.

And that does not mean that we perform perfectly because that is an impossibility. We have to bring humanity back to these conversations and recognize even though we are skilled, we are still human. And so one of the things that we have to recognize is that this is one of the ways that your expertise showed through in that situation. It did not guarantee perfect performance, but what it did guarantee is a more correct or a more accurate evaluation of your performance. So you could recognize the points of failure and then go back and share that with the other person and saying, hey, you know what, let's take a look back at that conversation. I could have done better in that way. Can I have another chance? And they're like, wow, yes, yes, we can. And that's it. Right. And so you just have to recognize mistakes are inevitable, you cannot avoid them. It's going to happen. But the beautiful thing is if you have the right skills, you can recognize that you made the mistakes and then recover from those mistakes.

That's right. And I see that a lot. I have a program on the matter of race and it's for white people who want to learn about racism and do something about it. And we of course talk about how to have the conversations. And the biggest fear is that they're going to offend somebody, that they're going to say something or do something that is going to make people of color angry at them or call them names, or make them think that they're not the good person and the ally that they're really trying to be. And you've got to be willing to make the mistakes. And when you learn to do that checklist right, and you learn to be Able to say that was a mistake. Right. And be able to go back and own it. You would be surprised. Not everybody's going to love you for it, but there are so many people who recognize the humanity and that. Who recognize that you are in fact an ally and that. That you may have said the wrong thing in that moment, but that doesn't negate why you're there. Right. They know that you are there to be an ally and that doing that means you took the risk of making a mistake. Right. You weren't trying to do what you did to cause harm or offend. You were actually trying to show, hey, I'm with you. And so you have to be able to evaluate, like how you did and not beat yourself up. And that's the other thing. There's a difference between evaluating and beating yourself up. And we are so used to beating ourselves up because unfortunately, that's what happens from other people. Too far too often is we beat each other up in this society. Rather than recognize that mistakes are part of the journey. I think we cannot get through life without making mistakes. And if we really can honor that mistakes are part of the journey, then we start to look at what we just learned by making that mistake. And I've seen so many white allies who are still doing the work 10, 20 years later who learned that, yeah, I really messed up in this one conversation. And people came for me. And you know what? I listened and I took the feedback that I thought was really important to take, and then I came back the next day. I owned it. And then I continued on my work. Right. I didn't say, no more, I can't do this anymore. I said, okay, because they recognize that's a part of the journey. So if you're going to do this work, you're going to be an ally in any shape or form. I'm not just talking about race, but an ally in any shape or form. Recognize you're going to take the risk of making a mistake, but being open to the feedback that you get when you make it, including the feedback from yourself, feedback not beat down from yourself. And then you can go back and own. Hey. Yep. Could have done that better. And I'm sorry that I did it that way. Let me try again.

Yeah, I love this. And again, like you said, the skills that we're talking about in this conversation, in the program that you run, everything that we do, it's all just simple conflict resolution skills that help you, like you said, move forward to where you want to go and be effective at the same time.

That's right.

I think that's really what it is. And when it comes to these tough conversations, they're always tough. But then when you add a sense topic to it, like race, gender, religion, politics, whatever it happens to be, the stakes become higher because of the increased level of emotionality and how much people care. And when we're talking about these topics, the solution isn't to avoid the conversation because then problems don't get solved, relationships don't get built. And so we have to risk potential mistakes in order to have the reward on the other side. So I really appreciate the work that you're doing in this space. It's so important in the conflict resolution space and the DEI space and how you blend it. And my goal to try to be more like you.

My goal is to try to be more like me, too.

Just a funny aside, Lynn. There's so many times in conversations I have, usually you could probably relate to it. The skills go down the closer the relationship is to me. Sometimes I end these conversations, I'm like, up, am I that guy anymore? Am I just, dude, are these skills real? But sometimes I say to myself, man, you would tell somebody else to do something completely different. What are you doing then? But it happens. Hey, at least you can recognize it and make the adjustments after the fact, right?

That is true. And then I don't know if your children do this, but, oh, good Lord, my sons would always hold the mirror up in front of me like, okay, you want us to listen better then? And you might want to try listening better to us too, you know? Oh, my gosh. Oh, it's horrible. But so good. It's so necessary. But it's horrible when they do that again.

There is that humility, right?

That's right.

This is great. Well, Lynn, I appreciate this. And listeners, if you want some fun behind the scenes banter, keep listening till after the episode. We're going to include a little bit of that. But, Lynn, I really appreciate you coming back on the show. Before you go, make sure to let the listeners know again about your work and how they can get in touch with you.

Absolutely. So my website is Lynnmoreenherdl.com you can go there and see all that we offer. We are getting ready to be offering 37 ways to be a great ally when it comes to racism. And that's going to be not only ways that, that we'll be able to provide you in a PDF, but also a couple of workshops on how you can really be effective in those ways. We offer on the matter of race. It's a six month journey for white people who want to learn and do something about racism. And we offer it. Our next one will be coming up January of next year, but we start, we open it up in October. So whenever this airs, I'm sure it'll be right on time for the next journey. And my TED Talk is on my website. Anything. My book is available on Amazon. And so it's how to close Conflict for Leaders. And. And you can listen to me on this show.

Love it. Lynn, this was so great. Thank you for joining us. Really appreciate it.

My pleasure. And again, I love your book. Thank you.

Oh, man, this was great.

I love it. I love it.

So many notes. It's so cool. Like, every episode's so unique. Yeah, cool. I love that self evaluation portion of it. That's really strong.

It has saved my life.

Oh, my gosh. Wait, go into that.

It has saved my life. It truly has. Because I was thrown out of. I was thrown out of a skating rink, escorted out, because I jumped to the conclusion that there was a woman in front of me that was. Appeared to be black. And so the woman who was taking them on angel said, you know, oh, you two together. And I'm like, I'm not with her. Why do you think I'm with her? Completely reacting to, oh, we're both black. So you think I'm with her because it's a white woman who was taking the cash. And she called security on me and said, get her out. And I was stunned. And they took me out. And I literally. They're on either side of me, and I'm literally like, oh, God, I don't know what's getting ready to happen here, because these are two minutes late at night or whatever, and they're dragging me past people. And I said to them, would you please just take me back? I'm really sorry. I want to apologize. And I kept saying it over and over. And they finally looked at each other and they took me back and she's just like, what is she doing? And I said, I was completely wrong. That's not how I talk to people. And I really apologize for talking to you in that way. I said, I have friends inside. I'd really like to go be with them. If you can find a way to forgive me, I'd really appreciate it if you would and would let me in. And so she told security, let me go. Get their hands off me. And she let me in. And I was just a son of a. But I knew that I had to take myself to a place of owning what I just did rather than being more afraid of what was going to happen to me or to be mad at her because she's having them throw me out. I just knew I had done enough of the work by then to know, honey, what's going to save you in this situation, or at least you got to try, is you gotta own that you were just straight up wrong. And that was the card I played. Right. And it. And for it to work in that situation, I was like, you are never gonna not use this. Never. Because number one, it's what you need to do. And number two, it just took me away from the fear in the situation and really placed me in the present of what had just happened and what I needed to do to try to fix it. Wow. I know.

It's so powerful. And I think sometimes the best techniques or tactics or strategies we develop are because we make mistakes and we find ourselves in a bad position. Necessity is the mother of invention. And now because of this, you've learned a technique that now is going to be shared with like over 10,000 people across the globe. So we can, can utilize that to become better people and make the world a better place. It's so powerful.

Yeah. I found it to be one of the most powerful things that I've ever, ever used. And this is not a made up story. This is for real. That happened. And I was both grateful and stunned that that technique actually worked. But I knew, I was determined that that was what I was going to pull out first. Like out of my toolbox. That was what I was going to pull out first. I didn't know what was going to come behind it. It. I just knew I had to try that because that was the. Honestly, what was called for, in my opinion. That's what's called for. You did wrong. Like, own that and just see if you can get a shot. If nothing else, you know, you're gonna come back with me. You're two big guys. You're gonna come back with me to make sure I don't do anything but apologize. But that's what I really wanted to do and I wanted to get in. But both were equal for me. She could have said, no, you're not getting in. Thanks for the apology. Okay. At least I would feel good about me going back to do that. But the fact that then she responded in the way of, yeah, okay, go. That was, that was beautiful. It was beautiful.

Wow. You know, let's dig deep into that. It's so Fascinating. Okay, so let's say somebody does something wrong to you. At that point, what you feel compelled to do is almost in our mind, we have this internal scale of justice. We want to even the score. I want to do something bad to them or make them feel like they need to accept it, they need to own it and know what they did. And then if you come and you just accept, oh, yeah, I messed up. I messed up in this way, this way and this way, you have every right to be upset with me. What, you did their job for you. At that point, there's nothing left for them to be upset about. And so it's almost like they got something. And then reciprocity makes them want to give you something in return. I'm just trying to break this down.

Yeah, that's right. And again, I believe also because we don't see enough humanity like that, there's a real appreciation that you were willing to go to that place for them. Right. It's like, because too many people would have cursed them out or continue. You know, it just made it their fault. So when I can come and say, absolutely. And there was nothing. I wasn't trying to get something out of her. It truly was. That was just straight up wrong. And people can appreciate when someone does that because we don't have enough people doing that. And it brings them to a place within them that. That's humanity, too. Like, what can I do with this but say thank you? Right? And then, I mean, what can you do with that but say thank you? I know for me, when I've been on the receiving end of that, my sons, particularly my youngest, who works with me, and on the matter of race, he's so good at that. Just really. He may be heated in the moment, but he will go back and really think about it and come back and go, mom, that was just wrong. Right. And that is not how I meant to come off. And this was going on for me at the time. And I think that just really let me go there. And you did not deserve. I mean, he's really good at that. And. And I know what it makes me feel because I could be really, like, still steaming. And he does that, and I'm just like, ah, okay. He sees me, he recognizes it. And he's human in the moment, too. I think that, again, I think they can connect to. Yeah, I've been there, yelled at somebody for whatever. Right? We've all done it. Come on. If we're honest with ourselves, we've all done it. And I think it Touches that place for people where they just say, okay, I understand how that could happen. Yeah, you're good, man.

I love this. This is good. This is so good. I appreciate just still dropping gems even after this is going to be part of the interview. I know that for sure.

Good.

Hope you liked it, listeners.

This is great.

I appreciate this. Well, I've got to run. Kai's gonna get off the bus in a bit, but. All right, yeah, let's keep in touch. I appreciate you.

Please. Okay, take care.

See you. All right.

Bye. Bye.

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And your book came out. Your book, which I have, I said, did we have a conversation? Because I knew from beginning to end, I'm like, thank you. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

I appreciate that. I'm glad you liked it. And I love the tabs. I love seeing the tabs.

I love it. And in fact, we do in on the matter of race, we do some sections on how to have the conversations because, you know, everybody comes in and they want to have the conversation. They want to beat people over the head with it. It's like, that is not how we're going to have the conversation.

Exactly.

Yeah. And so actually, I'm going to add this as a resource for them because we can't do every class on how to have a conversation. So I think this is just perfect for everyone to read and really be able to engage. Even better, because we've had. We've had some really good success with people having conversations, particularly with family members that they just haven't known how to do it and just kind of given up that they'll ever have an opportunity to do it or that it'll ever be meaningful. So I love that they have another resource to continue to try to open up the door. Right.

I appreciate that. No, it means a lot. Thank you. Especially coming from you, because you've been doing the work and you have that conflict resolution background. Along with that, just the race consciousness and awareness. So that means a lot coming from you. And I was talking to one of my buddies the other day. He's actually a conflict resolution specialist and he's a wide white police officer. And so I was on his podcast and he was talking about how he read it. It was really helpful for him. And that was one of the things that I was very mindful of. I'm like, how can I create this to be a tool for whoever enters the conversation? And that was. It required me to go over it for tone and all that type of stuff. Because I'm like, I want this to be a skills based conversation. I want to make sure that I'm not turning people off so they can still, whoever it is, they can still have the conversation at a higher level.

That's right. Agreed. And I think that's what you accomplished. I truly do. Thank you. I'm telling you, I was just so excited and I just said, I mean, my gosh, we had a great conversation anyway, but I just felt like, wow, I feel like he's been reading my mind or we've been having conversations.

I'm.

Telling you from beginning to end. And I travel, I'm traveling more these days, so I, I intentionally said, you know, I have time on the plane. Let me read this. And I'm catching myself shouting out loud like, I don't really care. It's like when you get something that is just really in agreement with what I've been saying. Like, one of the things when you talk about, how do we expect that we're gonna have conversations about race when we can't have conversations about, really, we can't even have some of the simplest conversations, to be honest. Forget about the more difficult ones. And then one of my biggest things, I had written this, an article saying that one of the things that we do is we don't give people the basic skills to have difficult conversations. Right. To be able to resolve conflicts in those conversations. And then we have diversity workshops and we throw them into workshops, expecting them to talk about race when there's no foundation for talking in general, particularly when there's disagreement or when feelings are really high. Right. So when I saw that in the book, I said, I'm in.

I love it. Thank you. Thank you, thank you. I'm really glad you enjoyed it. I'm really, really glad. That is great.