Genuine Tactics for Enhanced Negotiation Credibility with Minson Vo

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. Thanks for joining us today. With over 10 million downloads and listeners from more than 180 different countries, it's dedicated listeners just like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of the American Negotiation Institute. Now, before we get into today's insightful conversation, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives. Have you ever found yourself wishing that you could navigate those high stakes conversations with more confidence? Or perhaps you're looking to empower your team with the art of persuasion and conflict resolution? At the American Negotiation Institute, we've crafted specialized keynotes and workshops tailored for those very needs. We've transformed the negotiation skills of professionals worldwide, and we're eager to do the same for you. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And our goal is to help you improve your lives and the lives of those around you, one difficult conversation at a time. Don't let another challenging conversation leave you second guessing. Click the link in the description to discover how we can help you find confidence in conflict, negotiate better deals, and have stronger relationships. Because in the world of business, every conversation counts. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Minson, good to see you, my friend.

Good to see you, Kwame.

Yes. So before we get into it, how about you just start us off by telling about yourself and what you do for folks who haven't heard one of your episodes yet, and then we'll set the stage.

Great. So, hello everybody. I'm one of Kwame's little minions. I'm a course designer and content specialist, AKA his minion for the American Negotiation Institute. And I'm also a college student. So my background is I recently got into negotiation four years ago. Just really been interested in the subject. I started in high school, and one thing that really fascinates me about this is that negotiation, the principles of it. Although you might not negotiate in every single conversation, the principles of it do apply to every conversation. The psychology, the neuroscience, the principles of leverage, empathy, compassion, all those things. So I am 100% invested into it, probably for the rest of my life. Right now I'm doing research on how to bring more of it to my generation, which is suffering from a lack of communication and negotiation skills due to the digital pandemic. Back to you calling me.

This is great. Awesome. Intro. By the way, I love this and you know, actually speak a little bit. Let's take a like a minor, like two minute detour here to talk about your generation and conversations, difficult conversations and communication skills in general. Because I think a lot of times when this topic comes up, it's a lot of people who are not in your generation speaking badly about your generations. You have a perspective that I think is very valid in this.

Great. So yeah, I'll give my perspective, I'll give perspective of one of my professors, former professors I actually talked with yesterday. So my perspective is that my generation is we are good communicators in the right channels. We are significantly better communicators over text than most other generations because we're so it's the most common form of communication. You would see that most kids in Gen Z and in younger generations as well prefer text over phone calls. I'm one of the few people who prefer phone calls over text. So my friends get really annoyed when I call them every single time to give something really, really, really small though I talked with my former professor yesterday, she's Professor Jamie Belin. She's a generational expert on Gen Z and leadership and management. I hope I got that correctly. But anyway, she was talking about how the reason my generation is shifting now, so this is post pandemic before, the pandemic was a little different. But the reason why Gen Z is shifting now is because people or kids in middle school and elementary school, key stages of the development process, are given the option to do hybrid classes or online classes and a lot of their schoolwork, a lot of their school time. How this results in a generational shift is because they're online and using Zoom for communication. They have the ability to withdraw from difficult conversations or from tough situations. When I grew up, and I'm not making that big of a distinction between me and people like five years, six years younger than me. Though there seems to be a little bit of a shift. When I grew up in middle school and elementary school, I was forced to be in difficult conversations and forced to be in these situations and forced to deal with things in the moment I was able to feel the emotions and learn from those experiences and see, okay, this went wrong, I should do this next time. I should engage with people like this. But new generations who are doing that or who are in middle school and elementary school don't really have that luxury a lot of times or they have the luxury, but they don't use it because there's an easier, more comfortable option. Which is ghosting, turning off the camera. Here's my little tactic for high school, when zoom classes were a thing. Pretending your mic isn't working or avoiding the conflict inside the actual moment and then following up with an email or a text bringing up the conflict. Then we know email and text aren't the best ways to deal with conflict in general. So it's these things, it's these avenues of digital communication that make that allow for more comfortable ways of communication, which aren't necessarily the best ways of communication in terms of development in communication skills and development and other key things like empathy, compassion, conflict resolution. So that's what I feel about my generation. That's the trend that my former professor has observed about my generation, which I can attest to is, like, true. So, yeah, that's what I have for that.

Wow. Okay, that was incredible. And now I think, Minson, we have a topic for a future conversation too, because I'd love to explore that one further. That's really, really fascinating. All right, so everybody, you can see why I'm so excited to have Minson on the team, because that was such an incredibly insightful response. And I think that's going to be a topic that we explore more in the future because it's really important. And especially when we think not just the communication styles within generations, but also intergenerational communication styles, how that can lead to conflict between people is really powerful. So, yeah, this was a good advertisement for one of our future conversations, Vincent. So thanks for that.

Of course, of course.

All right, peeps. So today, this is what we're going to talk about. We're going to talk about a topic that has come up in almost every single one of the keynotes that I've done today, this year in 2023. And that is the topic of how to negotiate without power. And this is noteworthy because I present in all sorts of different industries, all sorts of different places, all around the country, and sometimes internationally as well. And it's been a significant increase in people who are asking questions about how to negotiate without power, how do I manage power dynamics and those types of questions. So in this conversation, this little kind of micro coaching session, Minson is going to ask me questions on that topic. We're going to explore that together, and then maybe if we have time, do a little bit of role playing as well. So, Minson, when you think about this topic, what are some of the top questions that come to mind for you?

Well, first thing is, what is your definition of power?

Okay, great place to start. So here's what I would say. Let's start off with a technical negotiators response to this. Let's go to the book. So a lot of times we use the term power and leverage interchangeably, but I think understanding the distinction is important. So somebody has power. Power comes from things like authority comes from rank or just kind of undeniable position. So for instance, if you are within a company, you might work for somebody. The person who you report to has power over you because of their position. Let's say if you are a small company and you're negotiating with a Fortune 100 company, they have more power because they have a bigger brand and they have a lot more money than you. So that is a source of power. Now leverage, on the other hand, leverage is more strategic in its consideration because it is situational advantage. So somebody else can have more power than you in this interaction, but you might have leverage over them. They probably have leverage over you as well. But strategically, what you want to do is lean into the unique leverage that you have. So great example for a ani, let's just use us, for example, right? So I'm the CEO, so I have power. But when you and Ashley were working to put together the, the audible course on, on listening when we were having those conversations, you had a lot of leverage because you had a massive amount of control over that process, right? So in that narrow circumstance, you had leverage even though I had power. And then also when it comes to power and leverage, an important thing to consider is the optionality of the parties involved. So if you're a small company negotiating with a big company, they have a lot of money, they have a lot of branding like we discussed. And so it's kind of like that rap lyric, there are a million of you, but there's only one of me. And so the company says you are replaceable. I can find somebody else to do what you do without much of a difficulty. But I might be your only marquee client. And so I have more options than you, which means I have more power in this situation. So those are a few of the key considerations that we have to keep in mind when it comes to power as an analysis. But for me, one of the other things that we have to consider is also feeling powerful or feeling disempowered, feeling powerful versus powerless and having an empowered approach to negotiation. Because it's not just that somebody might have power over you, is that you feel that they have power over you. And that means that you feel a lot less confident and that Lack of confidence manifests itself in performance that is diminished during the actual conversation. And so a lot of times emotions can help can cause us to approach these conversations in a disempowered way. And instead of doing a deeper analysis and finding our points of leverage, we feel like we are negotiating from behind. And we go in much more deferential and submissive than we need to be, which makes the outcomes worse than they need to be too.

Definitely a last part really resonates. It's power is also from my experience, little experience perception. So how people perceive you can affect how powerful they feel and how you perceive yourself can and them can affect how powerful you powerful you feel. And, and again, like you said, it's different from leverage. It's not as situational. It's more of like a rank thing and things that stem from things like authority, social hierarchy. So my next question for you, Kwame, is let me get a little deep into this because, oh, and also thanks for giving me and Ashley tips on how to how to negotiate with you in the future. I'm going to get a little deep into this just because I know there's people like me out there who understand better. When we are bombarded with scientific terms is that what is the what's in the fields of psychology, neuroscience, et cetera, what happens in the brain that makes us feel like we have less or more power than somebody else?

Hello, my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question. Have you ever wondered how to elevate your team's negotiation game and how you can help the folks on your team have better difficult conversations? At the American Negotiation Institute, we offer transformative keynotes and workshops tailored to empower professionals with top tier negotiation and conflict resolution skills. Whether it's a keynote for your next event or hands on training for your team, we've got you covered. Don't just negotiate. Master the art with the American Negotiation Institute. Click the link in the description to find out more. Elevate, negotiate and succeed. Man, that is a great question. I am not 100% sure, but I will say that the word that you brought up, perception, is going to be important. So when we think about perception, we're talking about, well, what are we perceiving? We can think about that from the like the biological type of sense, sight, sound, smell, whatever it is. So yes, we will perceive in that way. But when we are thinking about perception in this context, I think it's also important to consider perspective too. And so there are some people who, for whatever reason, they are more sensitive to disadvantage. And so sometimes that leads them to come to recognize false positives. So I am constantly looking for evidence that I am in a disadvantaged position. So I will see that in every circumstance, even when it doesn't apply. And so that's where I think perception comes into play, because it's rooted in perspective. And so a lot of times what we have to do is we need to slow things down and recognize there is a difference between facts and feelings. But in the moment, they can feel the same way. So it's kind of hard to distinguish between that. So you could go into a conversation and you can feel disempowered. You can feel as though they hold all the cards, but that may not be reality, the reality. So what we have to do is we have to recognize that our emotions and our thoughts, they are just emotions and thoughts. They are not truths. So we have to be a little bit more skeptical of our emotional evaluations that come at the forefront of the investigative process and dig a little bit deeper to figure out, okay, what are the unique strengths that I bring to the table, question my assumptions and things like that. But yeah, I think that's especially as we think about building out more of this content in the form of courses and books for. For ani, I think getting a really clear picture psychologically of what's happening beneath the surface can be really instructive because then it could walk people through. This is what happens when you feel disempowered. This is how it impacts your performance, and this is how you can overcome it. And I think when you stand this at a deeper psychological level, it becomes a little less scary when it happens in the real world.

Oh, exactly.

Exactly.

I'm sorry to know that. That recently too, when I'm journaling my negotiations, and I want to refer back to an excerpt from Negotiation Genius by Malhotra and Baserman on information versus influence. And that is, in a negotiation, like you mentioned, there's going to be things that we feel that are not reality. And I think in the book they call that influence, but that's when it comes from the other side. I like to just call them red herrings because that's the easiest way for me to process them. And I was in a negotiation a few weeks ago with somebody and they were throwing out. It was about over the price of a certain product. And they were throwing out things like, oh, I can. At the end, they were throwing out things like, oh, but I have other options that I can go somewhere Else, though, at the beginning of the conversation and throughout the conversation, when I was jotting down notes on the things they were telling me, I could identify very clearly that what they told me at the end about them having other options or them able to resort to other people is a red herring because of how much it costs them to actually go out and get an alternative. So it shifted. Or just that act of taking notes made me. Helped me see clearer, like you said, instead of just resorting to my biases at the time. Because when you're at the end of a conversation, when you have high hopes for a deal that might happen and somebody says we have other alternatives, well, in the past, it scared the living crap out of me. So being able to recognize that is so, so important. The difference between what's actually reality or what is probably true versus the biases and assumptions that are arising in your mind.

Yes, absolutely. And there are so many studies that show the power of journaling and how it can help to lessen the emotional response that you're having, helps you to think a lot more clearly. But we don't really appreciate how much journaling in the moment in the form of taking notes during a meeting can help. I was doing that yesterday. It's so powerful.

Very, very powerful. And Kwame, on this topic, I know there's a lot of people out there who. Well, there's kind of a school of thought in negotiation. It's been more recent when the fields of emotional intelligence were being more researched is that we shouldn't focus on power, but in a conversation we should focus on understanding and compassion. So what do you have to say to that?

Yeah, it's a false binary. It needs to be a both and Right. So if I am, let's just use a legal example. Because my entry point into negotiation was as a business lawyer. There are times where I have to tell my clients, hey, by the way, you have a very poor legal position right now. We need to negotiate and we don't have power. And so we have to get the best deal possible while at the same time recognizing that the best deal possible may not be very good. And so here's the thing. I remember a while back I made this post just a hypothetical, and the answers were really interesting. And I said, would you rather have in a negotiation all of the information, all of the power, or all of the. Yeah, I don't like a really, really good relationship. And here's the thing. If you have a lot of power, if you have a lot of power and a lot of Leverage. At the same time, you don't need to be a good negotiator to get a good deal. So at the end of the day, you want to seek to empathize. You want to seek to understand. Negotiation is an information game. So the better the relationship, the more trust I have, the better the deal will be. The more information I have, the more creative options I can create. Those are all true. And at the same time, I have to recognize that power matters. It really does matter. And so in that legal example, if they hold all of the cards because my client put themselves in a really bad position, I could empathize all I want, and they could still steamroll me because they can. Right? And so the best negotiators are the ones who are able to do both. But I think a lot of times in the negotiation industry, and in a lot of these, the new method of communication, we tip so far into the emotional intelligence that we forget that power does matter. And we have to consider that strategically in order for us to be effective, because if we don't, we're going to get bullied and really have nothing else to. To offer. Exactly.

And I just want to clarify something for the listeners, because at this point, it might seem that power and leverage are getting intertwined. Though from what I've read and in the cases I've seen, power usually is a good indicator of leverage. If you have power, you tend to have more leverage, and there are certain situations where you don't. That's why we make a distinction, though. That's probably Kwame. How far off is that?

No, you're absolutely right. You're absolutely right. Because like I said before, if somebody has power and authority, like in a traditional sense, they probably have a lot of leverage in that circumstance as well. And your job, if you recognize, hey, they have more options, they have more power and authority, and they do have more leverage. My goal in my preparation is to explore the unique points of leverage that I have so I can bring that to the table in a meaningful type of way. And also before the negotiation actually happens, my goal is to improve my batna, my best alternative to a negotiated agreement. So the better my alternatives, the more power I have at the negotiation table. So the other thing to that point, we have to recognize is that power is dynamic. It's not static. Power and leverage can shift with. With time. And so a lot of times we kind of just take these negotiations as they are and say, well, this is the snapshot in time. This is how we're going to negotiate but before every negotiation, I'm going to try to figure out how I can improve my position so I have more leverage than I started off with. Sometimes that might mean I'm bringing in a third party and negotiating with them to improve my batna. So I have a backup plan. And that will give me more confidence at the negotiation table and a bit more of a strategic advantage. But yeah, you're right. Power is usually a very, very good indicator of leverage. And we have to continue to have a deep analysis to figure out where we can gather power and leverage in order to balance the scales in those situations.

Right, right, 100%. So in terms of developing power and protecting yourself from a loss of power, what tools do you think are the most useful?

The biggest one is foresight. Foresight. The biggest one is foresight because what ends up happening a lot of times is that people are surprised and they should not be surprised. So here's an example. We work with a lot of procurement teams and what often happens is they start negotiating from behind because they use what I call hope based strategies. They recognize that they have a good relationship with supplier, but then something shifts in the industry and now this is the only supplier. It's a single source type of situation. And then they say, well, man, I hope they continue to treat us fairly. Okay, you could hope, but what you should be doing is preparing. You see, hypothetically, when this contract renewal comes up, you might have a good relationship with this person on the other side. They might shift positions, they might go to a different company. And now you have a bully on the other side who understands the leverage that they have, or they have new mandates from the top saying, hey, we're going to need to have a 5% price increase on all of our, on all of our clients. That's just what we're doing. Mandate from the top, right? And so you see this potential problem coming down the pike, but you don't do anything to improve your position. And so when it comes to these difficult conversations, a lot of times they're conversations that we should have seen coming, but we were so focused on what we were doing right now that we didn't plan effectively for the future. So when it comes to negotiating without power, the key is foresight. So you can start trying to solve that problem before it happened.

No, that's like, so, like, that takes me back to the quote of it's five seconds of preparation is better than not. Five seconds of foresight is better than none. So it's, or at least from my experience as someone who grew up very, very shy. One thing that would happen is there will be situations where I do have foresight, and. But I'm too scared to confront it. So I would be like, there's gotta be a problem, and maybe if I just ignore it, it'll go away. Never goes away. So planning is definitely really, really important. Preparation, most important of all. So, yeah, foresight. And Kwame, what's one more tool that you would recommend for listeners?

I'll refer back to the book negotiating in 3D. It was a very good book, strategic negotiation book. And so they talk about negotiating in multiple dimensions. And again, a lot of times we just say, all right, this is the negotiation that I'm going to have. Somebody's coming to me, the problem with a problem, they have the power. Okay, I'm going to do my best I can during this specific interaction. But what that book talks about is the multiple dimensions of negotiations. So for me, what I want to think about is how can I reset the table? So imagine coming to, like, a dinner table, and you don't like the settings. So you could say, okay, I'm going to sit down and try my best with the social interaction. But if you get there early, you can say, no, I'm going to reset this table in a way that is advantageous to me. And so we want to think about the relationship that we have with the person on the other side. That's the focus on our negotiation. But then I also want to understand their landscape. Who are the stakeholders that they report to? Who do they care about? Who are my stakeholders? Who can help me? Who else should I be negotiating with? So let's say, for example, if I'm negotiating here with my plan A, my option A, this is where I want to stay. But my plan A has a lot of power over me, and they have more options, and I don't have any. Then if I see that this could potentially be a problem six months down the road, I'm going to start to essentially create competition for this negotiation, right? So I'm going to start having conversations with other people in the industry, see if there are other people who can meet my needs. So then I can come to that negotiation with a lot more confidence, saying, I have three viable options that I've been nurturing for the last three months, and that can put you in a much better position. So I think when you widen your aperture and focus on not just this specific negotiation with this specific person in this specific time, then it helps you to be a lot more creative in your Negotiation strategy.

Wow, that's really cool. I've always thought about it as what you said is this temporal dimension. There's this spatial dimension that you want to prepare for too. You want a lot of power in the negotiation. And what you said about planning with stakeholders or preparing to identify stakeholders, who's a person's audience and who are the all the people that are influencing the negotiation or can be influenced by the negotiation, that's the spatial dimension because you're looking at the relationships, the network of relationships involved. And what you said about planning ahead and finding these other alternatives, finding people that can be used as. I don't want to say use, but that can justify your power later on in the actual. In your target negotiation. That's thinking temporally, that's thinking time wise. So when we think on these dimensions that I mentioned and the dimensions that are mentioned in 3D negotiations as well, that makes perfect sense.

One thing, and it's funny, one of the challenges I have, Minson, is I need to make sure that when I tell negotiation stories, I'm respectful to the other side. I need to figure out how to say it in a way where we can protect their confidentiality. That's tough. But let me. I'll just tell the story in general with this one because it would be easy to figure out who's on the other side with more details. So I remember there was a time I was negotiating with this massive company, like Fortune 500 company, big one, and I felt like they were taking advantage of us and I was feeling a little bit disrespected. I figured, I hypothesized that they were going to assume that I was going to accept whatever it was that they got because it was a great opportunity. And it was. And but for me, something that's non negotiable is my feeling of being respected. And I wasn't feeling respected at that time. And so they came in with a really heavy anchor that I thought was unfair. And when somebody drops an anchor and is super aggressive in a negotiation, you really have two options for how to respond to that anchor. You re anchor by having an equally aggressive negotiation position on the other side. And then it turns into a tug of war. Kind of sloppy, very aggressive and usually does not work out well for either party. Or you can reset the table and say, yeah, I'm just going to obliterate this anchor by not even wrestling with this at all. And so my response was, hey, listen, I appreciate this offer, this surprise and kind of taken aback and a little bit hurt by the way that you approach this, because that expectations that it was going to be one way and now this is vastly different. So I'm going to be completely honest. I don't feel safe any longer in this relationship because I need partners that I can rely on. So I think our next meeting should be talking about how we can unravel this partnership. They were not expecting that. And when somebody thinks that you are just going to sit there and take what they give you, they haven't really taken the time to consider any other options. And so when you say, hey, thanks but no thanks, I'm going to execute another option, even if that other option leads me to less money, I would feel better about that. So it's not about the money anymore, but now I'm going to use money as a proxy for respect. So you're going to. If you want to talk, you need to show me you respect me. Right. And it was a complete paradigm shift in that negotiation because they definitely had way more power. Way more power. Right. But I had the leverage because I knew there was still I was the only person that fit that specific need for them. And they just assumed and started to act as if we had already accepted the deal when we hadn't. And because they already acted as if they we would have accepted the deal, they already committed in a way that they could not undo, definitely. And so that was our unique point of leverage. And that changed the entire negotiation.

That's really, really insightful. It's that thing that Malhotra mentioned about. If you're going to make some sort of ultimatum or declare something like, I'm going to, I not fine with your anger and I might walk away because of your anger, then you better have the ability to follow through with it. And the story you told is a prime example of making, of responding to their attempted use of power while also maintaining your credibility at the same time. Because a lot of people, what they do is they make the attempt to do that. They're like, oh, we can't accept this anchor. We're going to walk away. And then the party with more power is like, okay, walk away. And they're like, can we talk more? So is definitely a big shift there when you add in like telling them about your feelings, being very transparent about things and making it just seem very, very credible at the same time.

Yeah, absolutely. One of the things I was very mindful of during that conversation when I was conveying this message was I said, let's just say, Minson, let's say I was negotiating with you. I was like, hey, Minson, before I say what I'm going to say, I just want to let you know that you and me, we're good. I respect you. We still have a good relationship. My concern is that you made assertions to me beforehand. And I feel like there are forces that more powerful than either of us within your organizations that are pushing you to act in this way. So I just want to be clear. You and me, we're good. But for me, as the CEO of the American Negotiation Institute, my responsibility is to do what's best for my company. And what's best for my company is to make sure that we make business relationships with partners that we can trust. And so that's why I'm making this decision. And so by clearly delineating the fact that, hey, our relationship is good, this is a business thing, not a personal thing, that made it a lot easier for both parties to interact. And like I said, they came back to the table and it worked out. But you're right with the way that you walk away is very important. My simple rule that I always follow, I know other people might disagree, but I don't bluff. I never bluff. I make promises, I make warnings, but I never bluff. So warning is an if then proposition. If this continues, then I will have to do this. And so I'm just letting them know what is the natural consequence of the continued behavior. And then I'll let people know how I feel. But if I'm walking away, that's not a joke. Because if I fake a walk away and then come back, then I ruin my credibility within the relationship. And your reputation is one of the most powerful, persuasive things that you have at your disposal. So it gets out that Kwame is going to fake walk away. Absolutely not. That's just. That's not a reality I am unwilling to accept. So you have to know that if I'm walking away from a deal, I've done my homework. I've started to put other options in place, and I have alternatives. I've done this survivability test in my mind to understand what is doable and how I'm still going to survive and thrive even if this particular deal doesn't work out. So when you're walking away, the key word is this. You're saying, hey, based on where we are right now, it doesn't look like things are going to work out. If anything changes on your end, please feel free to reach out and let's continue this conversation. And if anything Changes on my end, I'll let you know and we'll continue the conversation. So that allows both parties to step away from the negotiation table while still saving face and at the same time making it really easy for either party to return to the negotiation table while still saving face. Because then you can say, hey, something changed on my end. Now I can do this. My schedule changed, my calendar changed. Yeah, we could do this. Or on their end, they say, hey, we move some numbers around. Now we can do it. So even if they were bluffing about their position, I still give them the grace to come back with their dignity intact. Right.

And people will be so surprised to see how many times when you do that, other people come back to the table and they're like, oh, we did some talking within our team and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And we decided that meanwhile, they just went back and they just like, dang.

It.

I'd love to move to the simulation part of. We have time to see how you would negotiate.

Yeah, let's do it. Yeah. So let's set the stage. Do you. Are any simulations coming to mind? Any scenarios?

How about I'm a shark and you are a startup owner and you asked for, I'll make up a number, $500,000 in turn for 35% or in return for 10% equity. And I'm like, no, I'll give you only $250,000 for 15% equity because your company is not worth that much. And let's just say you are selling what is something practical you are selling. Or I know this is already a thing, but let's pretend this is not. You're selling portable electric chargers. Electric car chargers. Okay.

Portable electric car chargers. Now let's make this a little spicier. So the what I'm looking for is 500k for 35%. You're countering with 250 for 15%. Let's make it like 250 for about 25%. So it's okay. Yeah, so it's a little bit more aggressive. Cool. So 250 for 25%. So let's start off the conversation with. And listeners, as you can tell, I mean, we did not prepare and I love doing it this way because it. I want people to hear how imperfect this will be and that will debrief afterwards. So we'll do the best with what we can with the imagination that we have.

Sweet.

So let's just say I dropped that offer and this is you responding. So what we're asking for mins and the shark is $500,000 for 35% of our company.

You might as well leave the room if you're going to do this. I mean, I'm asking for $250,000 for 25% of the company, and that's what I think you're worth. If you're going to be so entitled and greedy to ask for $500,000 of 10% of your company, then again, you might as well just. Just walk away. Because I feel disrespected. I don't feel heard. And at the end of the day, I'm the shark and you're the investor or you're the person trying to get the investment.

I can appreciate this perspective, because for me, it sounds like your goal in this is, first, to be heard and respected. And second, if there's a deal to be made, make sure it's a deal that works for you. Is that a fair synopsis?

Well, yeah, that's what I'm there for. That's what I'm here for.

Yeah. Well, first, I want to apologize, because if there's anything that I've done that came off as disrespectful, I want to address that. And for me, I want to make sure that we have a good relationship with all of our partners. So as we go throughout this negotiation, what is it that would make you feel respected?

The only thing that we've talked about, if you give me an offer that is fair for the worth of your company, and. And in my opinion, that offer should be $250,000 for 25%.

Okay. All right. And I think our conceptualization of respect is the same, too. I want to be heard, and I want to drive a fair offer. And here's the thing, Minson. You've got a lot of options, right? You've been in this game for a long time, and so I respect that. And you need to do what's best for you. So I'm not going to take any of this personally. So what I want to do is I want to be as transparent as possible so you can decide whether or not this is a investment for you. And if it's not, you can let me know. We can walk. And it sounds like there are certain concerns that you have with the company, and I want to get a better understanding of what that might be. And so when you think about the successful investments that you've made in the past, what are some of those things that helped you to make that investment decision at the time? Investments of the past?

Well, investments I'VE made in the past relative to the value that you're asking for, has had more sales than you, they have had more profit than you. And their team members have over decades of experience in the field they're working on. You don't have that much experience in the electric car industry and the electric vehicle industry. You just came into this. And quite frankly, I just. I don't know if I want to work with somebody who I can't depend on.

That makes a lot of sense. And I think those are good indicators of success. And I think something that would help me is this. Because you're a busy man. I know you don't waste your time. What is it about me that made you even want to take this meeting?

Oh, you were just one of the people looking for investments on the list. So I'm just going through it. Nothing about you. I just met you.

Okay, all right. And so you take meetings from anybody then?

Well, I don't filter it out. My manager does.

Okay, so the manager makes the decisions. Okay, okay. And what are they looking for as they bring you good options versus bad options?

I have no idea. I think what they're probably looking for is what will bring the best investment to me, but I don't know the criteria they're using.

Okay, all right. No, that makes sense. And that's fair to see it as they are the filters, the gatekeepers. And here's the thing. You're a businessman. I'm a businessman, too. And I need to make sure that I'm making the best decision possible. And I want to make sure that the people that we work with are aligned in what it is that we're trying to accomplish. And if the numbers don't work out, that's fine. Let me explain a little bit more about what it is that we are doing and why we're asking for what we're asking for. And maybe we can talk through this, too. For us, when it comes to the $500,000 that we're asking for, we're asking for this because it is a threshold issue. If we are able to get this investment from you, it would decrease our manufacturing costs. That would help us to decrease our price, which will then help us to increase sales. And so the challenge that you were seeing with sales is the challenge that we're seeing as well. And based on our market research, it is just a price issue. And so once we're able to get that price down, then we're able to make more sales. My hope is that you will come in based on your background in the industry, and you could help us to get to our Series B. This is our Series A. You would be on the ground floor. You'd be taking a significant chunk of equity at 35%. But we want you to be partners with us because once we get those sales up, then we can widen the pie, expand the pie, get more investors in, and then everybody can win together in the future. And based on what I'm saying here, when you think about that strategy of taking the bulk of the 500,000 to decrease manufacturing costs, what do you feel about that approach as it relates to solving the sales issue?

Well, I don't think it's an immediate solution because marketing is also a thing. And me as an investor with decades of experience, that doesn't really translate to anything. I mean, even if I invest, it doesn't mean you're going to make more sales. There's diminishing returns. There's things that they look at marketing. There's changing trends. There's so many things. But I'll tell you what, you've obviously been really respectful in the conversation so far and a lot of other sharks who are willing to take on the risk. Those who are. Those who are meeting with potential investees. I don't know if that's the right word today. And those who are not, and I'll be happy to refer some of them to you if they're interested.

I think that would be great. I appreciate that, Minson. And, yeah, what I would like to do is just keep the lines of communication open so I can keep you posted on our development. And I would love those introductions to your partners, because like I said, we believe in this, and we believe this is a good first step. And we're. Yes, this is a Series A, but we're hoping to go down the road and continue investing. So we'll keep these conversations open and we'll see what we could do and possibly work together in the future.

Okay, Sounds good.

Okay, good. Man, that was tough. I was starting to run out of imagination. Man, this was good. Okay. I was taking notes as I was getting pummeled here. So there were. So, first of all, one of the. One of the things that you can do when it comes to bad behavior. So one of the things you did was you said, and you. You called me entitled and greedy. One of the things that I found to be shockingly effective is I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt on the first one, and I'm going to ignore it, because if I Get latched onto, hey, don't call me that. Now we have a silly argument about something I don't care about. I don't care if you think I'm entitled and greedy because you're emotional at this time. I've got a job to do, so I'm going to ignore that. And when you think about this, the people who are typically the most emotionally reactive are the people who feel the most fear and the people who conceive the biggest threats and the people who have more power see fewer threats and therefore are less emotionally reactive. And so what I'm doing psychologically is I'm signaling that I'm not intimidated by you. I'm not afraid of you. A lot of people would hear that insult and then you would see them shrinking, but it just went past me because I just did not care. Right. And so I think that's a strategy you can utilize. If it continues, if it becomes a pattern now I'm going to address it because it's distracting me. I have a job to do and now your petty name calling is distracting me. If it continues, I'm going to address it. If it's one time, I'm letting it go and refocusing. And sometimes that, that works really well. Now with the you were asking. You started off pretty tough by just saying no and seeming disinterested. And a lot of people, when they are in that position, they will negotiate against themselves. Oh, the powerful person seems disinterested. Let me adjust my position in order to try to get ingratiate myself to them. But I wasn't going to adjust my position. Instead I'm going to flip the script and become more curious. But I want to become curious in a strategic way that essentially primes you to create a bit of an association with me and other successful investors. Investments. So when you made a decision on invest in on companies in the past, what helps you to feel confident in that decision? So I want you to think about those winners as you're thinking about me. And so then that gave me your decision making matrix. You said I need to see more sales, more profit, and a team with experience. Those are the things that you're lacking. And I'm trying to. It's like I always say, negotiation isn't the art of deal making, it's the art of deal discovery. There might not be a deal here, so I'm not going to push it if it's inappropriate. And so I'm trying to get a little bit more of your key metrics for success. So Then I can persuade empathetically versus egocentrically. Because a lot of times, especially Shark Tank's a great example, what they do is they don't know the difference between sales and negotiation. So instead of like when a shark says, no, I don't think this is right, this is my counteroffer. Instead of getting curious and asking questions and then giving your future persuasive points in a language that the person can appreciate and understand, they just keep on selling by highlighting points that they've already said before. Right. So I want to make sure now that I understand where you're coming from and what you care about. And so every other point that I make is going to be tied to what it is that you're saying. So you'll see, as I went on, if sales was the number one thing that you were talking about, well, I said, all right, cool, if you give me the $500,000, I can give you the sales that you're looking for. Because we've done this research, right, and it was clear like you weren't interested, which was fine, but we still ended up with some value. Because you're going to get me in touch with some investors that would be interested. Because at the end of the day, negotiation is about progress. I can't guarantee that I can get a deal done, but I can still navigate the deal, the negotiation, in a way that moves us a little bit closer to an effective outcome.

Yeah, no, it's sweet. I mean, to be fair, I knew what you were doing, so I was trying to be more difficult. But I feel like if I didn't, then it would be a lot easier for me to be persuaded. Especially that question of how did you or what helped you feel confident about investment in the past. That's really helpful because not only does it associate you with positive emotions once they answer that, but also sets a standard that it's very hard to back down. Because then if you show them that you are successful in the metrics that they define, it's really hard for them to be like, well, but I take back what I say, right? So that's a really helpful one. I'm curious to see how this would play out, especially once you add in the variables of time pressure and multiple people you're negotiating against. Mainly referring to Shark Tank, because there's situations on there where I see there's a lot of opportunity if there was a one on one negotiation with the investor that they're dealing with with to discuss needs, priority standards. Though the thing is, not only Are they on a show where there are certain things allowed and certain things that are not, though? There's also time pressure. There's also things like say yes or no, that's it. You can't negotiate with me. And there's also things like coalitions and just straight up obliterating the founder from all angles.

So.

So that's what I'm curious about.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yes. So a couple of things. I've had one or two folks from Shark Tank on the podcast before, and one of my good friends, Tom Burden from Grip Matt, got a deal on Shark Tank too. And so this is something I've asked a lot about because I was really curious. And so a couple of things. The negotiations are way longer than they show. The negotiations are often well over an hour that they're having and they cut it down for tv.

Interesting.

So I did not know that. Yes. Yeah. So there's a lot more back and forth than actually is shown. They only show, like, the parts that make people look really stupid, really smart, or have a lot of conflict in it. So we have to recognize there is more time that happens. We also have to recognize that most cases are not like this. So it is a very unique negotiation environment. One of the things that is really powerful in negotiation is privacy. We want to be transparent with each other while still giving each other the benefit of confidentiality so we can be private with each other. And so people are less likely to be vulnerable or share things that might not look good when there is a camera running on abc. So that's another thing. So it makes it a little bit harder. This approach is a little bit more akin to a negotiation versus a negotiation. So a negotiaction is a blend between negotiation and an auction where there are people who are submitting bids against each other, but they. You still have an opportunity to negotiate, and the person makes it clear they want to take the best option. So it's a very interesting social dynamic that's created with the lack of transparency, the fact that you're negotiating with three people at one time. And there's a bit of an auction element as well. So when it comes to this, you have to understand, you have to widen your perspective on what the success in this negotiation can be, because it's not just about the deal. It's also for the marketing bump. Exactly. And you've seen sharks say that too. They're like, I don't think you're here to get a deal at all. I think you're just here for the marketing. And they're like, right, because some people are.

Right, right, right.

Some people are because they're not willing to give up that much equity. So I would be really, really clear in the definition of my parameters of success. If I was going on Shark Tank, what would it take to be successful? Because I thought about it, I thought about it for a long time. Like, should I take that shot? I think we could, but I didn't really have that need for investment. I didn't want to take on investors I like 100%. We were able to bootstrap and be successful. And I think about investment in the same way about loans. These are things that you only take on when you absolutely need it. It's your last option, or it should be, because, like, a loan, you can take it. It disappears when you pay it off. And investment, if I'm giving up equity, that person's with me forever. So, like, it needs to be an exceedingly good deal. So for me, I wouldn't be trying to come into Shark Tank trying to negotiate a small deal. I would be going, like, go big or go home. Like, you need to take me to the next level, or else it's really not worth me giving up my baby. For pennies and exposure.

Definitely. And for any investors who are Interested in giving ANI million dollars for 0% equity, we are interested.

Yes, exactly. Those are the only deals I'm considering. Right. You know what's funny? One little aside. I remember when I was starting things off, there was a. I was in talks with a law firm because I'm a lawyer, too. And I was saying, hey, why don't you bring the American Negotiation Institute as a subsidiary? You buy the whole thing out. And I run this training and development firm with this essentially media company attached with the podcast, and it serves as, like, a marketing apparatus for the firm. And then the business clients that you serve could be the clients for the. For the company. They said, no, thank God. Thank goodness. Which brings up again a really important point. Sometimes you have to be grateful for the deals you did not close because the future was far better than you would have anticipated at that time. Definitely. Definitely. Yeah. Cool. Thanks, Kwong.

I mean, I learned so much. Today especially, I think I learned the most from actually seeing you negotiate, because that's always an opportunity, because I rarely get to see you negotiate. But the fact that now not only do I have an outline and concepts ingrained like 3D negotiation or why power is different from leverage and how you can increase your power in negotiations, not only do I have those concepts Though now I also know how to execute those concepts as well. Through the questions, through empathizing, through what you said, in ignoring the insult and bad behavior the first time, and especially that example with that Fortune 500 company.

Yes, yes, yes, no. I appreciate it. This is fun for me because again, over a thousand interviews on the podcast. It's fun every time I get an opportunity to be interviewed on my own show. So thank you, Minson. I appreciate it. Questions are always insightful and listeners, let us know if you like these episodes. Leave us a five star review. Give Minson a shout out, shout out in the review, of course. And yeah, if you like these, we'll, we'll make more of them. So appreciate your time, Minson. Thank you for coming back and we'll catch you all in the next one.

See y'.

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