Got Diversity? How to Level Up and Win More with Michael Van Keulen

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Michael, thanks for joining us today.

Yeah, thank you for having me, Kwame.

It's my pleasure. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Sure. My name is Michael Van Coelan, or mvk. Some people refer to me as mvk. I currently am the Chief Procurement Officer at Koopa Software. Before I joined Coupa, I was the head of procurement at Lululemon, where we led procurement transformation. We digitized the procurement process with Coupa. Before that, I lived in Greensboro, North Carolina for a couple years with a company called VF Corp. Where we also did procurement transformation and digitized with cooperation. And even further back. I originally was born and raised in Holland in Amsterdam, so it's one of the most culturally diverse and we'll talk about that. Of course, today, cities in the world and have been in finance and procurement for over 20 years now.

Fantastic. Yes, this is great. And yes, your diverse background would be perfect for this topic because today we're going to talk about diversity in procurement. And so a lot of our listeners are in procurement and supply chain, which makes sense because this is a negotiation podcast and one of the topics that's starting to come up a lot more is the value of diversity in procurement. So that's really what we're going to talk about today because like I said, our audience is comprised a lot of people of a lot of people in that industry. So let's Just get it started by asking the question, what value does diversity have in this field, if any?

Yeah.

The way I'd like to position it is to talk about the role that procurement is playing in our companies that we serve every single day of the week. I think we've seen a significant pivot in the position of procurement.

And what I mean with that is.

We'Ve become more strategic, we've got a seat at the table. But what you're seeing is that the teams that procurement as a function is still not very diverse. And what I believe, and I've said this several times, is having diversity in your team, and diversity being ethnicity, religion.

Background, color of your skin, but also.

Professional background, education, where you're from in the world. I mean, all of that is going to drive significantly better business outcomes. That has been proven. That's not a popularity contest. And so why it matters to procurement is if we want to truly transform procurement as a profession, we have to have differences in thought, in opinion, in ideas. And the only way to do that is to have diverse teams, because otherwise you keep talking to the same people all over and over again, expecting different outcomes. And that is the sign of insanity. So I believe in that perspective, and it's needed for us to really change the game for procurement.

No, that makes a lot of sense. And I like the fact that you explained what diversity means, because I think that's a term that people use quite often, but they don't really get into what it means, especially in the specific context, because really what you've done is you've brought more diversity to the concept of diversity, because a lot of times it's too limited. They say race and gender. That's diversity. Right. But we have to go a lot deeper than that.

No, I couldn't agree more.

And it's yes, those are the immediate reactions. Right. It's gender, which is extremely important. And I've said several times, one of the reasons why procurement has not been able to elevate itself out of the trenches of where a lot of practitioners still feel they are, is because we.

Don'T have proper diversity from a gender perspective. Because if you think about it, and what I mean with that is things like empathy and soft skills, those are. Things are becoming way more important now that procurement has that seat at the table. That doesn't come naturally for men. I am not naturally very empathetic, and I had to teach myself. Women, on the other hand, generalization is always a bit dangerous, but just naturally, they are more empathetic and empathy is extremely important in procurement. And so therefore, I believe that that's why it's important to have that proper mix. And most of my teams, if not all my teams that I've had the pleasure of supporting have always had 50, 50 gender mix. Now, if you go even a layer deeper, and now you talk about, for example, culture, religion, where you're from, how you were brought up, how you were raised, and all of those things, they all matter, all of that matters. And. And that's why it is such a crucial. But it's not just color of your skin, it's not just gender, but it's all of that together that ultimately is what is required.

Absolutely. And one of the things that you talked about earlier was the strategic role that procurement plays within an organization. And for the listeners, you know, I constantly talk about strategy, strategy, strategy. I was talking to my son, who's five. He, you know, he's got a limited vocab, but he knows a strategy is a plan that helps you win.

Right.

And so I think a lot of times people struggle to see how increasing diversity is an effective strategic decision because we're recognizing, like you said, procurement plays a strategic role, and diversity can help in that strategy creation. But the question is how?

Yeah.

And it's maybe how and maybe it's also why.

Right.

And so if I maybe start with the why, I believe that if you have a diverse team, it also allows you to enable a proper strategy around supplier diversity. Right. Like if it's kind of like that thing like, you know, you keep doing the things that you're used to and then again, like, expecting some different outcomes. But I legitimately believe that having diverse teams will allow you to accelerate supplier diversity. And the reason why supplier diversity is relevant and is important is especially in an environment today where supply chain is going through significant disruption, is it de risks your supply chain. It de risks your supply chain. It has also been proven that having a more diverse supply chain allows for more innovation. Again, it's the same as what you have in your team. The same applies to your supply chain. If I have differences in thought in my supply chain, again, different backgrounds, different ways of how they run their business, instead of these big global conglomerates, you'd maybe have somebody that's closer to your business. I have better lead time. I can have competitive advantage. It's important. And that's the why. Why does this matter is because it drives better business outcomes. Because ultimately we have shareholders. And if I can bridge diversity with better business outcomes, I mean, there is no reason why you wouldn't do that. So that's the why. Now the how is when you hire people, right? Maybe that's the how in terms of how I've been is do not get yourself bogged down in hiring resumes. I've never hired people based on resume. Never in my entire career. I've been doing this for 20 years. I've hired, you know, dozens and dozens of people. I've built teams, I've started team from scratch. I've changed teams is to never hire based on resume. You want to hire based on attitude. So I never get myself, you know, it's attitude that matters. And so my point is more on the how for me has always been higher based on attitude, but also what skill sets they bring to the table. And what I mean with that is, for example, when I was at Lululemon, I hired people from the help desk. And then some people would tell me, like, Michael, you're in procurement. You're in the middle of a procurement transformation. Why on earth would you hire somebody with zero procurement experience? I said, because somebody at the help desk knows how to ask the right question, how to be curious, how to ensure that that respective customer is successful. They are satisfied, they feel heard. But it also allows you to drive to a quick business outcome because you only have 10 seconds. 15, 20 seconds, right? That's what you need in procurement. It's agility, it's speed, it's resilience, it's. I mean, nobody's more resilient than at the help desk that gets like dozens and dozens of phone calls every single day.

Right.

So I'll stop. But that's why that is so important.

It makes a lot of sense. And then when we think about it from the lens of negotiation, especially within the realm of procurement, we recognize that there's a team approach. We're getting the perspectives of different people. But if we're constantly finding ourselves in an echo chamber, then we're limiting our ability to be effective in the negotiations because we can't see things from different perspectives just given our upbringing. Right?

Totally. And if there's one thing that, if anybody in HR is listening today is that I have always had a struggle with. It's called cultural fit. Oh, this. This person is not a cultural fit. And then I've. I've. I've asked, well, what does that mean, cultural fit? Because if you hire based on cultural fit, you're going to hire people that are exactly like you. They talk like you, they act like you, they sound like you. They probably go to the same gym, they go to the same sports club, they do the same stuff, they go to the same movies, they. That's. That's not how you build diverse teams called cultural fit. So I've always struggled understanding what that means, Cultural fit. And so my point to hiring managers is don't focus on cultural fit, because if you do that, by default, you're not going to be building diverse teams. Right. Because then again, you're going to look at, do we go to the same church or do we go to the same. You don't want that.

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And the unconscious bias. I mean, I even catch myself and I really do try hard, but to sometimes to say like, oh, you guys. Or well, but assuming that a CFO of a customer of ours or a prospect or immediately assuming it's a he, like, that's not what we're programmed from a young age, right? I mean, read the books when you're eight or five. Or like I'm reading to my kids, it's always Mommy and Daddy, Mommy wearing an apron, Daddy's off to work. Daddy drives the car. You Know, like, mommy's in the kitchen, you know, I mean, this is a completely different conversation. But. But you know what I mean? Like, it starts at a young age and unconscious bias. We all have it. We just need to recognize that we have it. That's okay. It's okay. I mean, we're. I was raised in a certain way by my parents, and I think they overall provided me with. With the right lens and the right broad perspective. But at the same time, it was also, daddy went to work, Mommy was at home taking care of the kids. There we go. You know, like, it starts at a young age. That's what I'm saying.

Absolutely. And it's tough to divert yourself from that trajectory without conscious effort. And again, that goes back to the value of diversity in these conversations, because sometimes, given your perspective and the fact that you might surround yourself with people who have the same perspective, you have blind spots, and you need somebody who has a different lived experience to help you to see it differently.

That is. I mean, that's diversity one on one. Right? I mean, that is like, it starts with the recognition, because only once you fully recognize that you have it and you admit and you are aware of it, then you. Now we're like, okay, now let's. Let's work on that, and let's start at the grassroots. And so one of the other things that definitely I wanted to mention on this call is that we are looking also at procurement as a. We need to start at the roots of, like, why is there no diversity in procurement?

Right.

I read an article the other day that said 8% of procurement is diverse. 8%. It's one of the least diverse professions out there. And so then I was like. When I read that, I was like, one. It's true. Because I go to these procurement conferences. I know a lot of practitioners, and for the vast majority, you know, they are mental, they're white, like myself. And so I recognize there's a lot of work to be done, and I think part of it is just the unknown. Like, nobody really knows what procurement is. Like, nobody other than, of course, the audience to your podcast. But I mean, procurement in itself. Like, the amount of times where somebody asked me, michael, what do you do? And I'm like, I mean, procurement, typically, the response you get is, what does that mean? Oh, are you buying some stuff? That's the purchasing. Is that what you guys do? I'm like, well, it's components of it, yes. And then you talk about it like, oh, that sounds so interesting. And so I think. And that's what I really try hard is to elevate the profession because I believe procurement is the coolest thing on the planet. I really do. And I'm not saying it's because I work for COUPA and I am a cpo. That's got nothing to do with it. I really think that we have an opportunity to drive meaningful change in our companies, but even beyond that, in our communities, we've got so much power at our fingertips, it's incredible. Let's use it.

Right.

But we need to start at the roots, and the roots being colleges, universities. How do we explain what procurement does? Why should people get excited about procurement over becoming a doctor, a lawyer or whatever, a musician, or which musician I'd love to be able to do, but I can't. But does my point make sense? I really think that there's such a great opportunity for us to start at the roots.

Absolutely. And really what you're describing is a pipeline issue too. There's a. There's a limited amount of diverse talent matriculating through to the profession. And so if we have HR people who say, okay, hey, I'm going to have. I'm going to try to hire more diverse candidates, then there's still a smaller pool to choose from when you compare it to other professions that are more well known, more better understood on the grand scale. Right. Because everybody knows what a doctor is. Not everybody knows what somebody in procurement does. And so I think when we have to go deeper into the schools, systems, colleges, universities, those type of things to help to really market procurement as a viable alternative.

Yeah, we need to explain it.

Right.

I mean, my son, he's 10. He's probably one of the best negotiators in the world.

Right.

Because he knows how to position himself and the kids know how to negotiate.

Right.

Most kids do know how to negotiate. And of course there's love and there's different feelings there. But my point is like, like, but then at some point they lose that skill and they no longer get excited about it. And I think that there is a great. I mean, maybe this is more a philosophical conversation now, but I think there's such a great opportunity for us in procurement to, now that we have that positioning in our companies. And we are, you know, we've transformed. Right. Over a very short period of time. It would have taken us five years. It was now done within three months. Right. Covid hit all of a sudden, and I know you've talked about that and I've listened to some of that stuff, which is great. Is the positioning of procurement has changed. We've evolved, we've transformed. Now we got to stay there. And the best way to stay there is we need talent, we need diversity, as we just said. And we can really pivot our profession forward. And I'm just excited to be part of that, for sure.

Yeah. And you know what's funny is because if you're listening to the podcast and you're somebody who is in procurement, you are better than average negotiator, or at least you should be. You should be. Right? And we often forget the fact that we're negotiating internally as well as externally. We're not just negotiating with the suppliers, we're negotiating internally within our company. And so let's say there's somebody who's listening who says, you know what, Michael, I'm on board. I think this is great. I think I want to help to improve diversity within my organization, but my team isn't as receptive. What negotiation advice would you have for them as they're trying to carry this message to their team?

Yeah, that's an excellent question. I'm a big, my background is finance, so I'm a big fan of fact based decision making. And there is tons of studies out there that it's not just a popularity contest, Right. It's not just because of some things that are happening in some parts of the world, for example, in the US that all of a sudden we need to talk about this topic. There are studies out there that prove that companies that have more diverse supply.

Chain have more diversity in their talent.

Pool, that they outperform companies that don't. It's proven. So this is not a. You can never debate facts, right? If it's real, if it's not based on emotion, maybe some bias, maybe conscious bias, maybe unconscious bias, but take away the emotion, if you will, because it's a fairly happy topic, right? With everything that's transpired over the past 12 months, especially in the U.S. but even across the globe, you've just seen the pandemic and now people start to think about more inwards and hey, me and what's in it. People have the tendency to now become a little more isolated and more think about their own four walls and, and I think just breaking through those barriers and don't turn it into a.

Don't politicize it, you know, like don't, don't. But also don't make it too sensitive. We can talk about this stuff. You know, it is fine to talk about gay marriages or, you know, without me turning into politics. Because there's no room for politics in business.

Right.

I mean, it very quickly now becomes like, well, you know, let's try to keep those things separate. And I think we can just by talking about it and admitting that you, you know, I'll admit, like, black lives matter. When that first came out, my daughter said to me, but, daddy, all lives matter.

Right?

Literally. And I didn't really have a good response when she, you know, hey, we talked about it in school. Like, how do I reply to her and say, yeah, of course, all lives matter. But that's not what black lives matter means. It just means that they've been under, underserved, underrepresented. They've not had the same opportunities that you've had, my daughter or me. That's what black. It doesn't mean that my life is not important. No, that's completely the opposite of what it means. Sorry, I didn't want to turn. Now I'm actually maybe turning it into politics, which I really didn't want to. But does that make sense? That's how we should look at this. Let's stop politicizing it and get over this. Ah, we can't really talk about gay marriage. No, we should talk about it. Like, why is that such a big deal? Come on. Yeah, I came from Holland, right? So for me, it's never been a topic.

Right. Well, I think that's one of the things that makes it so tough for people, because these topics have been seen as taboo for so long, and now we're living in a time where it's. Where it's like, hey, actually, all of a sudden we need to talk about all of these things. People are not equipped to have the conversation. And I think, Michael, you gave us a really good example of one of the biggest mistakes to avoid. Avoid, which is avoid the politic. Politicization of the topic. Because if you bring the politics with that topic now, you're creating a new emotional barrier to the effect of communication on that topic.

I couldn't agree more. And I know it's easy maybe for me to say as a Dutch guy that has no filter in terms of. Or has no, like, you know, I don't look at, you know, I had friends from every religion, every color, every background. And I always say, like, there's good people and there's people that have some room for improvement, but that's got nothing to do with anything that I said earlier around religion and color. And, you know, like, you should be colorblind. The same with religion, you know, Everybody has their own beliefs. Just respect it, you know, and then we'll get along. Right. I mean, that's what life is. Right. And so, yeah, for me, it's maybe easy to say because I was also raised in that way.

Right.

And I was in my environment was like that.

And, you know, we didn't have the.

Same news outlets where I was then, where in other parts of the world, where maybe it is very much intended to be more, you know, divisive than it is, you know, and so, yeah, but I genuinely believe that if we. If we do this intentionally and if we do this with, you know, the right mindset, and I think, again, procurement has that really great role to play because we are, to your point, we're both internal and external facing, and we have that ability to bring people together. You know, one of the things I've always said, like, for procurement is, you know, we wear so many different hats.

Yeah, procurement. That's why procurement's awesome. Right. At some points in the day, I wear the hat of a police officer. Right. Internally, like, I'm kind of policing people and saying, hey, you should not have done that. You should be doing this. But sometimes you play the role of counselor. I bring a supplier and a buyer together and a business together and make sure that there's compliance with an SLA that we did or whatever. But sometimes you're a judge, right? I kind of have to come in and say, yeah, you know, like, here's kind of how we should interpret this. But sometimes you're the juror, and sometimes you're just listening to people and saying, well, we probably. And so, you know, sometimes you're a psychiatrist and, you know, some other roles as well. But does that make. So that's what procurement is. The diversity is almost ingrained in the profession.

That's a fascinating way to look at it. It really is. Because it's such a multidimensional role. You're going to be interfacing with so many different perspectives. It's a naturally diverse role in terms of function, and it makes sense that it should be a more diverse profession in terms of just general diversity.

Like, we've been discussing the representation, you know, and sometimes you have to go to the hospital because you have some scars along the way. Right. You know, I legitimately believe that if you have no scars as a professional in procurement, then you're not trying hard enough. You know, you're not pushing hard enough. You know, I've compared this once with skiing. So for those listeners, I don't know if you're a skier, Kwame. But I'm a skier. Not very good. I only started in my mid-20s. My son started skiing when he was 4, and, you know, he's now down at the slope waiting for daddy to come down. But my point with skiing is, if you have never taken a serious tumble.

With skiing, it means you haven't tried hard enough. Right. And the same applies to business. The same applies to building your career. The same applies to running your procurement function is occasionally, you're going to get burned. You're going to just. You're going to have a scar, and that's fine.

I'm proud of them.

It builds character, right?

Absolutely. No, this is great. And so as. As a final point, I'd say, let's say there's somebody else in your role, another chief procurement officer who says, all right, I'm going to make this step. A lot of times we. We overcomplicate things, and we stay in the state of perpetual thought to the detriment of actual action. And so if there's a chief procurement. Procurement officer out there who says, hey, I want to do this, what would you say is their first step in diversifying their team?

Remove your unconscious bias. Stop hiring people based on their resume. Look deeper. What is the one thing that you don't have in your team today that you really, really need? And that could be things like empathy. That could be things like natural curiosity. That could also be just a completely different background. It could be hire a marketeer on your procurement team. Hire somebody. I've hired EAs on my team.

Right.

I've hired somebody who was a receptionist on procurement. And then people like, why? No, because she knows how to make people feel comfortable, welcomed, ask the right question, support somebody. Yeah. Like, I mean, those things are important. It's not just the 30 years of procurement, hardcore negotiation. In fact, I would argue that some of them are. Unless you have the ability to transform yourself, they're a thing of the past. The hardcore negotiator that believes negotiation is a competition and I need to win. And in order for me to win, somebody else needs to lose. Those days are gone, man. If that's the procurement function you had, guess what happened when the pandemic hit. Those were the first suppliers that told those companies, you know, thank you. See you later. You've always used me as, you know, and abused me. I have much more deeper strategic relations with somebody else, and I'm going to discontinue my relationship with you. And those things happen for real. Like, I'VE heard stories where because you made it a transaction and you forgot to think about relationship building and you forgot to think about, hey, what I'm doing right now, is that also in the interest of my supplier? What is my supplier trying to do? What is their strategy? What did the pandemic do to them and to their employees and to their business and the forward thinking practitioners. And I get to talk to a lot of them every single day and I'm extremely blessed with that. They were doing that. They were asking them, hey, what's happening in your business? Do you have cash flow issues? Can I maybe help you get through? Because you need suppliers in business, right? It's not like, you know, without suppliers, we're all dead.

Right?

So I believe in. So it's a long answer to a short question, but that's what I think we should do. Remove that bias.

Michael, I think that's a great way to end this interview. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much for taking the time to join us today.

No, thank you for having me. I'm sorry if I occasionally got a little too passionate, but I love the topic. And thanks for having me and great to meet you.

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