Hamilton Chan: The Power of Building Rapport

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Thanks for joining us today.

Thank you for having me, Kwame.

It is our pleasure. How would you start us off? By telling the audience a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Absolutely. There's no subject that I love more than talking about myself. So thank you for giving me that opportunity. Tell you a little bit. I always start with the fact that I'm born and raised in Los Angeles and maybe that's top of mind right now because the Lakers are actively trying to recruit some star players to their team to join LeBron James and Anthony Davis. So I'm really excited about everything going on in Laker Land. But I am born and raised in Los Angeles. I ended up going to Harvard for college. I was a psychology major, ended up then working at JP Morgan in investment banking in Hong Kong and New York and then went to Harvard Law School and that's really where I learned a lot about negotiations. Negotiation Workshop was my favorite class there. I ended up being a teaching assistant in the Harvard Law School program on negotiation and I had the opportunity, in fact, to share the stage with Roger Fisher, the author of Getting to Yes. And to work with the wonderful folks at the program on negotiation over there. And I taught the course during law school. I taught it in the summer to practicing attorneys and business executives, and then I got to use it in the real world. So I ended up coming back to Los Angeles and working at the law firm of Munger, Tolsen Olson as a corporate transactional attorney. I did deals for Kobe Bryant, whom I helped buy a basketball team in Italy. And I also represented Berkshire Hathaway, who does obviously huge deals. And I ultimately then moved on to mgm, working in business affairs. I helped the studio negotiate contracts with actors, producers, writers, and directors. Ultimately, though, I found my calling in entrepreneurship. I was the son of an entrepreneur and had worked at my family business ever since I was a little kid. And somehow the pull of that ultimately grabbed me back. And so I joined Charlie Chan printing as its CEO and ended up running this commercial printing company for 16 years. It was definitely a labor of love, and it was amazing working with my dad. And I think that's when I truly cut my teeth as a negotiation expert, because as a small, medium sized business owner, you are negotiating every single day on the job. So you're negotiating with investors, you're negotiating with customers, with employees, with customers, with vendors, everybody. So I felt like I negotiated every single day on the job on that. For the 16 years that I ran the business, I also started a tech startup that was incubated by Y Combinator and that raised about $1.7 million of seed venture capital funding. So I ran both companies at the same time. Ultimately, in 2016, I sold my businesses and I started to turn to executive coaching. And I ended up coaching a bunch of tech company founders through Y Combinator, through the YC Network, and really, really enjoyed doing that. And then following that, I ended up getting a position as director of Executive Education at Loyola Law School, where I'm a professor and I run the executive education program. That's including starting the website, building the platform, and we just launched a couple months ago. We have a online platform that provides for online coursework. We also have on campus classes. And our very first launch class was an online course on negotiations. And talking about that and talking about negotiations is what brings me here. And I can't believe how long I just droned on about myself. Thank you, Kwame, you are a saint for listening to all of that and to your listeners as well.

No, this was great. And listeners, I bet you can Understand why I am so excited to have Hamilton on the show. This is going to be great. And in our conversation leading up to this, you've identified three areas that we want to focus on today. First, building rapport. Number two, staying strong, and number three, posturing. And I am really excited to get into this because especially staying strong and posturing, those are things that we haven't gone too in depth on. So I'm excited to see where you go. So let's start off with building rapport. Tell us a little bit more about that.

Well, you know, it occurs to me that you have to play to your strengths in anything that you do if right now Wimbledon is going on. And so I see these tennis players, if you're Roger Federer, you're about playing the points really quick, about putting the ball away, about advancing the net. And so similarly, as a negotiator, this isn't necessarily the tip for every single person. I do think there is definitely a universal truth in the value of building rapport. But for who I am and for people who may resemble me, I think that that is my go to strength. It's my secret weapon. And so the basic concept is this. It's that in order to negotiate well, you need to build rapport with the other side. This means finding commonality, finding common ground, having things to talk about, building that relationship, getting to that point where they like you and you like them. So the matter that is being negotiated is almost secondary to the relationship. That's at least at a very high level what I'm trying to accomplish when I try to build rapport.

I love your response for two reasons. Reason number one, I am a tennis junkie and I love the fact that you brought in the tennis analogy, which was spot on. And number two, I really like the fact that you recognize that based on your personality type, you use building rapport as a strategic tool. But you acknowledge that there are some people who do not have that personality, where building rapport comes easily to them. So for that person, what advice would you have for them in this area?

So I think anyone can still improve in this area. So even though Roger Federer is great at ending the points quickly, he still also has to be a consistent tennis player. So even though he's not a defensive player who's just getting the ball back all the time, like a Novak Djokovic, for you tennis nerds out there, he still has to be able to be strong in that part of the game. And same thing with Novak Djokovic. He can't just be Getting the ball in defensively all the time, he has to be good at putting the thing away too. So even if that's not your negotiation personality, you can still learn from this, and I would still encourage you to do this. But I think knowing a little bit about yourself is important too. So if you tend to be more of the analytical type, maybe you're going to be the type to focus more on your negotiation arguments, your legitimate criteria. Coming up with brainstorms, creative options, and building rapport is going to be more of a secondary thing for you. But I think it's an area that everyone can use that will improve the outcome of their negotiations.

Yeah, you're absolutely right. And I think one of the things is when you start to develop that level of self awareness where you can see your personality type and the tendencies that you and the patterns of behavior that you bring to your negotiations, you can recognize what comes naturally and where you need to put some concentrated, focused effort. And if it's not something that you do well, it doesn't absolve you from the responsibility of actually building rapport. It just means that you need to be a lot more intentional about doing it. And so for people who are more analytical, maybe what you do is you have a systematic approach to rapport. You say, I'm going to ask these questions and I'm going to spend at least seven minutes before I introduce my arguments.

I think you're dead on on that as well. It's one of those things that people simply underestimate, especially amateur negotiators, is they think that the whole point is the negotiation itself is the material itself. Some of my best negotiations have been the ones where for 99% of the time that we're talking to each other, we're talking about the Lakers, we're talking about Wimbledon, we're talking about stuff way on the periphery of the matter. Then finally we end with, oh, shoot, we should probably deal with a little matter of this dispute or this contract or this deal or this whatever. By then the wheels are so greased that getting the agreement is a piece of cake. And that's just the last 1% of the negotiation. So I think if that's the structure of your negotiation where there is that much rapport building at the front, you can bet that the negotiation is simply going to go better. And it happens a lot in business.

And why do you think this is so powerful?

You know, my dad used to have a saying. I picked up a lot of sayings working with my dad over the years, but I noticed when I would go into sales calls with my dad, people would just love to see him. It was like a visit from Santa Claus. And people always tell me, your dad is so adorable. I love your dad. He's amazing. And so one day I was talking to my dad and he said, do you know why people buy from me? I said, why? And he said, because they like me. And from anybody else that would seem like such a self aggrandizing thing to say, but it was absolutely true. The reason why people bought from my dad was because they like him. I don't know if you've ever been in a purchasing situation, let's say going even to a retail store where you wanted to buy something, but the person that was going to sell it to you was so unappetizing that you're like, you know what? Forget I'm not. I'm just not going to buy it from you. Even though you want the thing itself. Or times when you didn't even want the thing but the person was so nice, you're like, oh, okay, fine, I'll get it right. That happens to us in everyday life. So I think the reason why the rapport building is so powerful is that it is a big part of why people do deals with the people that they do. If they like you, they're more likely to make concessions to help you out and to give you what you want.

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And so it's not just getting them to like you. That's the first thing, and that's great. There is another element that is even more powerful if you can layer these two. And so first get people to like you and then get them to say, Hamilton is also like me. So, for example, if you're dealing with somebody who is a Lakers fan, you talk about the fact that you're a Lakers fan. Oh, you're part of the team. And so that closeness is a persuasive tool that you can use during the rapport building process.

Totally. Making it seem like you're on the same side is critical because what makes negotiating so difficult is the potentially adversarial nature of it. So even when I sit down in a negotiation table, assuming that this isn't something where we have to have to be adversarial, I like to sit kitty corner rather than across the table because it lends into that notion that we're going to attack this thing basically looking from the same perspective as opposed to being, you know, butting heads and playing some kind of game of chicken. So you're absolutely right. The other thing I'll like to do is if someone has trouble giving into my side, I will empathize with the difficulty of their position. Let's say a police officer is trying to give me a parking ticket or give me, you know, some, some driving ticket, I might say, man, it must suck to have to hand out tickets all day and piss people off. I totally get that's not an easy position. And you know, how many times a day do they hear that? They might hear it 10 times, but they might hear it zero times. So if you're the one person to say, I get it, it sucks, don't envy your position. I totally understand what it must be like. They might just put that pad down and be like, thank you for saying that, I appreciate that. Because now you're showing that you are on their side. You're showing empathy.

Absolutely. And that's the thing too. I liken it to the law of physics. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. And so if somebody is demonstrating resistance, either Substantively and emotionally. And your immediate response is to negate what it is that they just said through argumentation like, oh, you shouldn't feel this way, or no, you're wrong, because X, Y, Z. Now they're almost obligated to counteract what you said with an approximate amount of force. So if they do it like you are suggesting, they see, oh, Hamilton's on my side, he understands me now, they don't feel the need to resist as strongly.

Yes. Like a matador in the bull fighting crane.

Exactly.

You don't. You don't, as the matador, put your head into the horns of the bull back at the snout, what do you do? You turn to the side and let them use their force against them so that they keep moving. It's like bull fighting. Let the thing go through or negotiation. Jujitsu is term of art a lot of people have used. So, absolutely. You do not want to, you know, strike the force head on. You want to try to redirect.

Absolutely.

And that often starts first with an acknowledgement. I mean, for your listeners, even hear us listen to the fact that we are complimenting each other, that we are assenting to each other's notions, that we are adding our own little flavors, that we're layering the conversation on top of each other. That's what you do in a negotiation. And I feel like we're buddies already, right, Kwame?

Absolutely. It's so funny.

I already know when you're in la, when you're in la, we're going to play tennis. We already know that.

Absolutely. And then go to a Lakers game.

Oh, yeah.

Well, let's move on to staying strong. Tell us what you think about this.

Okay, so it's not all pleasantries in a negotiation, I fully recognize. And you couldn't be in business and be in law for this long without realizing that you're going to have some negotiations which are hostile from the first second until the very last second. And so a of lot, a lot of people shy away when they encounter the situation in the fight or flight. They're going to want to flee. And so I think that the first thing that an experienced negotiator starts to develop is a certain resilience in a negotiation that's important. You need to be like a bobo doll so that even as the punches are coming, you continue to weather the storm and don't immediately start running for the hills. So a big part of this, there are a few little silly tactics that can help. One is it's very natural for people to nod, in a sense. So right now, it's hard to say because we're doing a podcast and it's audio only, but if we were face to face, it's very common for one person to keep nodding as the other person keeps slamming them or advancing their side. So I advise my clients and students to keep their head still and not to keep saying, huh, huh. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Because all that does is give the other side a green light to keep going. Instead, if you keep your head still and you don't keep saying yes, huh, okay, fine. It actually gives them this silence that makes people very unnerved and uncomfortable. And as a result, they'll feel more of a yellow light or even a red stoplight stop going in that direction. So I do. You know, everyone knows that Mike Tyson has that phrase, that everyone has a plan until they receive the first punch or some paraphrase of that. And I think that's absolutely right. In a negotiation, people are terrified, and they may go in with a certain plan, but as soon as the other side starts knocking down, they back off. So what I would recommend is stay strong throughout the negotiation, feel conviction in your position, and weather the storm. It's coming.

Absolutely. And I really love the advice that you gave there with. With not nodding your head because it's so subtle and so powerful. Because one of the things that people crave in these difficult conversations is validation, right?

Yes.

And when you are nodding your head, you're validating what they're saying. And now if you pull that away and you stop acknowledging and validating what they're saying, then what they're reading in their mind is like, wait, we had. We established some great rapport at the beginning of the conversation. We're buddies now. I'm not getting that validation. I want that validation from Kwame again. And so then it starts to. They start negotiating against themselves a little bit. It pulls them in your direction without you even having to say a word.

Absolutely. I think, in a way, this is hopefully a nice balance where if people hear the first thing, building rapport, like, oh, okay, great. I'm just supposed to be buddy buddy with the other side. I guess that's all I have to learn here today. And it's one way or the other. No, you can balance that just as effectively with this notion of being really strong in a negotiation, being comfortable with weathering the storm and not feeling so insecure in your own position that you have to throw your negotiation prep sheet out the window. I do feel like, you know, imagine what it's like if you're just a smart startup trying to sell to a big enterprise brand, a household name, and you have this deal to place, place your products at that company's location, you might go into this negotiation trying to build that rapport. And then as soon as the company starts giving you a bit of that silent treatment, as you start saying all the reasons why you need to price it at this level or that level, your heart's going to sink. You're going to lose a lot of confidence. And by the flip side, if the big company is thinking, oh, this little startup is going to agree to anything that I say, and then they start imposing all of these restrictions and you're all silent, they're also going to feel as a human being that, oh, my gosh, the love has been a little bit lost. So it's a subtle thing, and it's not necessarily to turn the whole negotiation dark. You still want to have that rapport, but especially in those confrontational negotiations, this is a tactic that I would consider important.

Absolutely. And I like what you said about the counterbalancing that this element has when you compare it to the building rapport. Because when I watch Food Network and I see the judges critiquing the different foods, one of the things that they say is that it's. It's one note, meaning that it is not very complex in its creativity. Right. And I think great negotiators are beautifully complex. So if you.

If you have.

If you're baking something and it's a dessert, of course it's going to be sweet, it's going to be nice in that regard. But a lot of times people are surprised at the fact that salt is an important part of the process. You don't really taste it at the beginning or as you're consuming it, but it's there and it balances. If you taste baking powder by itself, it is very unpleasant, but it's an important part of the process. And so when you negotiate with Hamilton, it's going to be a pleasant experience, but there is that counterbalancing that comes with staying strong that is necessary to have that successful negotiation.

Totally. Okay. You and I have way too much to connect on, because I am also a big consumer of food networked cooking shows. And you're absolutely right. You know, they'll do the competition, and then the judge will say, you know, this, this, the texture, everything here is mushy, everything's soft. I need a little bit of crunch, or, you know, there's too much meaty Taste here. I need something to cut the grease. I need some acidity, need some balance there. So. And I know it's 4th of July, so I was making some chili, and one of the ingredients in the chili was to put in some espresso powder, some cocoa espresso powder. I was like, what? Why would we put that in there? And that is exactly what you say to counterbalance some of the other flavors. So being a good negotiator isn't being one note. It is having the full arsenal of techniques at your disposal so that you can be hard when you need to be hard, and then you can be soft when you need to be soft, people.

Exactly. And so when it comes to being strong, I love the specificity of not nodding. Do you have any other specific tips for the listeners?

Yeah, I mean, I also think that holding your cards to the best a little bit can be another useful technique. And it's funny because even as I say this, I feel a little bit of internal turmoil because I taught at Harvard Law School with their principal negotiation framework. And getting to yes, is, is, is, is what it's all about. I still negotiate with the principled framework when I do business deals or legal negotiations. And the reason is that most of the time, you're talking about repeat business. So working off of principles, discovering interests, all that kind of stuff is awesome and is great. At the same time, when you are an SMB owner for 16 years and you know this yourself from running American Negotiation Institute, you have to negotiate very tough all the time as well. And so in those instances, it really helps to do things like holding your cards closer to the chest. So one thing that is a typical sequence that happens in a negotiation. And ultimately, I look at negotiation as, like, this cultural norm. And there are ways of doing the dance that are expected. And so one of the dance moves that is expected, I think, in a negotiation is what I call negotiation bartering, where it's like, all right, I'll trade you this deal point for that deal point. You trade me this deal point for that deal point. So in that situation, it helps where the other side doesn't really have the proper weighting on your deal points. And what people will do as hard bargainers sometimes is they'll pretend that something is important to them even though it's not. It's like going to the car purchasing lot, to the dealership lot and saying, you know, I would get this car, but it's the wrong color, it's blue. I really, really had my heart set on red. Now Secretly, you actually wanted the blue one, but you're pretending like it's something that you really cared a lot about. So then when it finally comes down to it, you're like, all right, fine, look, since it's not the color that I want, give me knockoff $500. I'll take. I'll just take this lousy blue color one. So that's an example of kind of being strong by not just revealing all of your cards and saying, look, this is how exactly how I feel about everything. At the same time, you can be a hard bargainer by trying to genuinely get at what are their interests. And if you find out what they're genuinely interested in, but it's a little hazy what's important to you and what's less important to you, then now you have information asymmetry and you can use that to your advantage. So again, it depends on the situation. If I'm negotiating with, you know, North Korea, maybe I'm going to be a little bit more obtuse about my position. However, if I'm negotiating with Kwame Christian, then, hey, it's all open, open book to you, my friend.

I appreciate that. Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. And you need to make that determination of what type of relationship and what type of interaction we're having. And I really appreciate you bringing up the typical getting to yes style collaborative negotiation approach, because I think one of the issues that comes with that is the belief that this approach is the way, when it is a way, one of the possible ways. It's a tool in your arsenal. And I think Chris Voss did a great job of outlining the differences, because if you go against the hard bargainer and you are completely win win collaborative, there's going to be a problem.

Yes, yes. I think that it kind of goes down to game theory also, just like you point out and the Prisoner's dilemma. And it turns out that one of the most effective algorithms in a prisoner's dilemma type scenario, where you have collectively a medium amount to gain if you work together, where you will have more to gain if you win and the other side loses if you play hard and the other one's soft. But if you both play hard, then you kind of end up at the bottom when computers play against each other, the scenario that works the best, the algorithm that works the best, is the tit for tat strategy. So you start off nice and hopefully the other side reciprocates. But if they don't and they start going hard bargaining and take advantage of you, and don't yield an inch. When you're yielding miles, then you have to switch your strategy and then follow them and then go with the hard style.

I love that you brought up game theory. This is great. This is great. Yeah. And I think that is. That's a brilliant way of contextualizing the issue. And when it comes to being open and sharing information, that tit for tat strategy works very well. Because going back to what you said about the information asymmetry, if we give information, then they don't give information and we give more information. The information asymmetry is significant, and it gives them more leverage relative to you in that negotiation, and we don't want to do that. And so the tit for tat strategy works well there. And another added benefit is that if you withhold a little bit of information, you can use it as a bargaining chip to trigger reciprocity to get them to share more information. So if you reach an impasse, you could share a little bit of information that you held back before and encourage them to reciprocate in order to get things going again. But if you give it all up front now, you have nothing else to give.

And all of this, I think, is. Is really novel, frankly, for us to be addressing in Asian podcasts, because that is one of the feedback that I would hear typically in a typical principled negotiation classes, where the students are like, this sounds good, but I have this unnerving feeling that this isn't like real life. It's like the book goes out the window as soon as there's a lawsuit or as soon as the deal that your entire career hangs on is in front of you. And that's why it is important to acknowledge that negotiation is very much a real world thing. It is, frankly, more of a street skill than any kind of an academic skill. I was actually playing tennis with an old buddy of mine, and he used to be an advertising executive at NBC. And I told him I was teaching this negotiation workshop, and he said, oh, negotiation's easy. Whoever cares the least wins. And I was like, oh, man, I think you just taught the course in 10 seconds. That is like what a hard bargainer thinks is. It's all about leverage. It's all about posturing. It's all about, what do you care about? Not caring for the other side as much and feeling psychologically strong inside. And there's so much truth to that. You know, a lot of times it does come down to negotiation leverage, but some people are better at playing off their leverage than other People.

I agree. And I think this segues really well into posturing. So tell us a bit more about that one.

Yeah, I mean, I think that how, you know, playing a negotiation hand is like playing a poker hand. So just like I was saying that sometimes you don't want to make it clear what cards you hold it. Sometimes you want to suggest that you're holding pocket aces by the amount of money that you're putting down on the table, and so you can fake out the other side that way as well. So I think posturing, especially in law, is pretty important. You know, right now we're having a great conversation in a, let's say, a litigation negotiation, a lot of times it's not going to be that way. And if the other side starts going on an avalanche about all the ways that your client is wrong, you might want to stop that and you might want to be, hold on. I disagree with that. Or show even like a frowny face or kind of cough, or just be like, hold on and put your hand up. Little things that are part of trying to even that balance the beginning. Because there is a psychological tug of war that transpires during a difficult negotiation. And you're going to want to do the things that posture so that they feel that you're confident, that you feel strong in your position, and that you're not going to let them run away with the deal all the way to the bank.

I agree.

And it's such an important part of it. And I love the fact that with the three points that you provided, it started off really nice. It just started to get darker and darker as we went on. But it's true, it's real. It's an important part of the game. At OSU's law school, they have now they have the top ranked negotiation program in the country, and they use the collaborative win, win, getting to yes style as well. But the reality is, though, the thing that people don't want to talk about is listen. It can get really dicey. And sometimes it is a situation where there is, like, in litigation, I need to fight for my client and you need to fight for your client. And that's the fact. That's where we are at this point. And putting up those walls is going to be important. So for you, how are you able to stay strong and posture without destroying the relationship?

So those are kind of like the heat that I'm packing. Like, I don't want to show up to the fight without having some weaponry, but I'd rather not pull out the weapon. If I didn't have to, I'd like it just to be felt that I'm not a total victim. But if I don't have to reveal behind my coat the thing that's sitting at my hip, man, that's a whole heck of a lot better. So for me, this is all kind of last resort. I want to go in there, I want to be friends. I want to be on their side. Even if it's a litigation negotiation, first thing I want to do to help my client out is talk to the other lawyer and say, man, our clients are crazy, you know, and get us off of. You are your client's proxy. I am my client's proxy. Instead, we are the cooler heads that will prevail. We are the voices of reason. These guys are nuts. They're both nuts. I'm a lawyer. You're close to me. Let's figure this thing out together. Let's be like arbitrators trying to figure out a solution. We're like NASA scientists figuring out how to make the rocket land on the moon, so we're on the same side. So it's all about trying to bridge that gap. And I would say almost all of my negotiations, it's. It stops at step one, which is building rapport. But if you have to, then steps two and three are there as well. You know, you gotta stay strong in the face of the storm. You gotta be able to play that game. And number three, you know, step three, you gotta be pointing those things that are gonna give you psychological advantage in the negotiation. Sparring. When it gets to it.

I love this. This is great. And speaking of sparring. Shameless plug. We will be doing a sparring session, so check it out for the next episode. But I love how you were able to, especially in the context of litigation, build rapport based on the commonalities of the enemy combatants. As you might say. It's like, listen, I understand your situation. You understand my situation. We are the same. We're playing for the same team, the legal profession. Let's figure this out. It's a really great thing, and I think a lot of times lawyers make the mistake of essentially becoming an extension of the emotional limbic system of their clients. So, hey, you're supposed to be the barrier here, but you're. You're making it worse. You've magnified the problem because not only do you have that emotional issue, but you have it with legal skills that can do damage.

Okay? You are a true negotiation nerd. If you're going to talk about Extending the emotional limbic system of a client as pretty awesome. I love that. And you're right. That's a lot of times that's where a client. What a client is looking for from their lawyer is they want that extension of the emotional limbic system. They want somebody to say, I get you. I feel you. That person's a jerk. Da, da, da, da, da. The client is hiring you to say those things, to feel that way, to go in there with knives and daggers. So the first thing you want to do is you want to disarm the opposing counsel. Right.

And recognize that there are, at this point, two negotiation happen. Two negotiations happening. Because you're not only negotiating with opposing counsel, but you are first negotiating with your client because you need to manage those expectations and get them on the same page. And one of my mentors said that sometimes when he would send an email to the opposing counsel, if the client wanted to be copied on the email, that email would be just fire. It would be fire.

Yeah.

But as soon as he sends the email, he picks up the phone and calls the lawyer and says, listen, my client was copied on that email. So just ignore all of the heat that was there.

Playing a role.

Exactly.

Yes. There's so many things that you can say that can help disarm the conflict. And, you know, if the other side isn't willing to play ball, you could say, look, then there is no point in having our clients who are at each other's necks to have attorneys. They might as well just go at it themselves. But the reason why they have us is so that we can help bridge this gap, so that we can find a solution that works for both of them. That's why we're here.

Definitely. And one thing we talked about before in our pre call was understanding the options and your batna before we end. Can you chat about that too?

Yes. I think the key term that is taught in most negotiation classes is batna, and that stands for best alternative to a negotiated agreement. I'm sure that word has been thrown around in your podcast many times, but it is basically your backup plan, what you're going to do if the negotiation fails to reach agreement. And so people become rather batna obsessed, but not in a good way, in my opinion. You're thinking, oh my gosh, if I don't get this job offer, my batna is to go into the unemployment line. What people should really think about when they first enter into a negotiation is how in the world they're going to improve their bat. So if I have A big job offer negotiation coming up. The first thing I should do is try to get a second job offer on the table. Even if you don't get a job offer on the table, a second one. If you merely set things in motion where a interview is being scheduled, that's going to give you that psychological boost you need to be like, oh, yeah, I got something else percolating. I'm not all wholly dependent on this one. One thing. If you have a big deal coming up, potentially with a huge company like Google, the very first thing you should do is to pick up the phone and call Microsoft and see if you can get something else on the table. So working on improving your bat is the number one thing people should do. And the other thing that they should do instead of obsessing over their own Batna is really think hard about the batna, the person that they're negotiating with. Because usually you are underestimating your batna and over estimating the other side's Batman, but they may have a similarly bad one to yours. After all, that's why you guys are at the negotiation table, because you need each other. So if you remind yourself that their Batma isn't all that pretty either, that's going to help give you that psychological boost that you need.

I love it. And I think that in itself, just understanding alternatives and the psychology behind it and the strategy behind it, that could just. That probably will be an episode by itself. That's. That's very great. And the thing is, I wish we could go deeper on it, but we just. We're just going to have to touch it for now because I still want to make time for the. The sparring session. But before you go, I want to give you an opportunity again to tell the listeners how they can get in touch with you and some of the things you're working on.

Thank you so much for that opportunity. This has been great. So I encourage folks to check out Loyola Law School's executive education program. It's called llx. The website is LLX the. And you'll see that we have an online negotiation course that dives into everything that we're discussing here. In this podcast, we have over 65 videos that were shot really high end, with cool motion graphics and just really, really entertaining, high production value stuff. And with interactive exercises, including things like a choose your own adventure negotiation where you choose lines of dialogues in a negotiation, get a different differential video outcome based on it. Really, really cool. And we have a new cohort launching in September, but we will have new Courts launching every couple months. So there should be a class for you anytime that you want. This course also will have two live negotiation simulations where you'll negotiate with somebody else in the class and gives you a great chance to do something that has no stakes at all, but gives you a chance to try out some of the strategies and tactics that we teach. The class is very much focused on principal negotiation and hard bargaining tactics with lots of storytelling, lots of examples, even professional actors reenacting negotiation scenarios. So I'm super duper proud of the class I teach it. It's been a labor of love for me and I hope you will check it out.

That is fantastic.

Very, very cool.

Well, thank you again for coming on the show, Hamilton. We really appreciate it.

Thank you so much. Kwame. It's been a pleasure.

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

Now, before you sign off, I have something to tell you that I've never told you before.

Just kidding.

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I'll catch you later.