He Was a Nervous Student — Then Negotiation Changed Everything

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We tried to do some two today. Four weeks ago, we talked about the Black Swan theory. It's quite famously known from that beautiful book I also read. And then something related to that theory, at least. And then we try to uncover those unknowns. Unknowns, which is cool. And when we talk about integrative cases, we have an integrative case. When we talk about culture difference, we try to simulate a culture difference. So it's. Yeah, we really are trying and building and creating cases that fit the things we teach because then we can at least learn proactively.

Kevin, thanks for joining us today.

Hi, it's my pleasure to be here.

Yes, it's our pleasure to have you, my friend. So how about you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

So my name is Kevin. I'm from the Netherlands, from Entre to be precise. I study mechanical engineering, the University of Twente. And in my free time, I like to do negotiations. I'm actually quite professional and I'm part of the negotiation project Twente. And what we do is that we, we teach students and young professionals how to negotiate, how to have better soft skills, and how to. To focus a bit more on the human side of engineering, because we really think that there's a big gap between what the university teaches and what the work work people want from us. So since 2018, we have been busy teaching students negotiations.

Amazing. Okay, now, listeners, my friend Kevin is very humble, so I'm going to gas him up for a bit. So this is incredible. So Kevin is a student and he reached out because of the incredible work that he's doing with the negotiation project Twente. For me, it's just really inspiring. To see students from all around the world starting to develop this love and knowledge of negotiation. And for one of the things that makes you even more special, Kevin, is the fact that you're doing this coming from an academic background that. Where negotiation is not really synonymous with that topic. Right. So we see it in business, we see it in law, but what was it about negotiation that drew you to it, coming from your background as an engineer?

Well, personally, I've always been intrigued by the soft skills in the human side of engineering. And I also did honors programs. I did all those sorts of things, but I was still missing like the. Really the development of have a roadmap of negotiations. And personally, and I think that's personally in a group, we think that negotiations is not one soft skill. It's a set of soft skills to. That you can apply in all types of situations. I was just scrolling through the association list of our university, and then I saw Negotiation Project Twente, and I decided to apply as a member, but also as a board. So now I'm doing both. So that's. That's quite cool.

That's amazing. Yeah, and you're absolutely right too, because there is oftentimes, especially when you come from hard science, there's an underappreciation of the soft skills that are required to make that work. I remember one, one time, one of my clients is NASA, and when they reached out, I was like, what am I going to teach you all?

What could I possibly have to offer?

But it's the. They're having tough conversations too. Thankfully, they weren't asking me to come there and do math. But everybody, just as humans, we all struggle with these tough conversations. And I love the way that you described it too, because a lot of times we think about negotiation as just one skill, but negotiation is just a combination of skills utilized at the right time. And even before you get named strategies or named tactics, if you are just able to connect with a person, make good reads, understand yourself, understand them, then you can use the skills and organically in the moment and use the right skill at the right time, even if it is not labeled as a traditional negotiation skill. So I love the fact that you're breaking down the negotiation term, the umbrella term, but also recognizing the soft skills and the fact that it's applied in all sorts of difficult conversations and just social situations. And so for the listeners, I want you break down from your experience not only as a student, but also learning engineering and somebody who's transitioning into the field. When you think about some of the soft skills that are part of negotiation, where does that show up in the professional world for you?

I think for me, when having a conversation, for example, just really listening, like hey, you, you all, we all hear the words, but what do you really mean by, by certain words? And also asking good questions, that sometimes that's quite hard to do. And even if you practice it a lot, it's sometimes just easier to ask a yes or no question. But we, I think we, at least at our association, we all know that it's better to have a more open ended question. And for me it's, it's also about how we go, how we attack. Like a meeting, for example, like how we tackle a meeting. Like, hey, prepare an agenda, make sure everyone is involved, make sure we can as a group have a productive meeting. It shows up for me as a presenter for presentation skills as well. Because you are more comfortable with public speaking or at least fit speaking. Because one of the things we practice at our association is also doing a simulation case where you really listen to each other. So there's like a platform where you can practice speaking public speaking to a group of students, which is actually amazing.

Yes. And this is, this is a perfect segue to the concept of practice in negotiation. Because that's really the, the main thing that brought you here because you have a message that I think is really important for our listeners. Because a lot of times we turn negotiation into this theoretical or philosophical exercise where we say, okay, these are the principles that I follow. This is what I would do hypothetically in a situation that I'm not currently in right now. And we don't have the opportunity to practice. And when you think about it, imagine any other sport. Imagine rugby, soccer or football, or American football, whatever the sport is. Could you imagine a coach just saying, hey everybody, here are the theoretical underpinnings for how to play this sport. Championship is tomorrow, let's go. It's just not realistic. So let's talk about the practice that you incorpor and the competitions too, because I think that will be new to a lot of the listeners too.

Definitely. So we are actually, we believe that we are the only program in Europe and maybe in the world that offer the negotiations how we do it. We have weekly sessions during our academic year from two to three hours, where we have a first hour's theoretical part. So we, we go over topics like negotiation 101. So the basics, but also strategy also like very specific theories. So more about Black Swan theory, for example, the Rose of Leary, all those actually we Go quite broad. Today at this moment is also like a very nice class about what this negotiation. So we go for culture negotiations, and after an hour we also do a negotiation case. Those cases can be, for example, from Harvard, we have some cases from them. There's also some big negotiation center. They also offer cases. We also write our own cases. And then you just do a simulation of an hour in groups of three to six people, and then just practice negotiation and finding out the details you need to know to have a good deal from your side or a good deal from both sides. And at the end of each session, we have judges ready. So our teachers also give feedback personally to everyone. So we can really monitor progress and make sure that people grow in their. In their negotiation skills. So they learn, they apply, they get feedback. And next week we do the whole cycle again because we really think that does those. This whole applied approach to negotiation can really work well. At least we think so. So. And it's working quite well for the negotiation competitions. I think we'll talk about it a bit more soon. We have won multiple already in the last years, also from a lot of law universities, while we're only. We are only a small technical university in the Netherlands. So that's. That's quite cool, I think.

Unbelievable. Yeah, it is quite cool. And when you think about it from a scientific perspective, let's look at the outcome. You're winning. So it works. That was our little experiment. We just did it. Congratulations.

Oh, this is.

This is great, man. And I'm just so impressed because first of all, we have the, like the spaced repetition learning. When you think about learning, a lot of times people just cram. It's like, okay, what do I need to do? Let me just absorb as much content as possible. And somebody listening might say, well, yeah, that was in the university. I don't do that anymore. Well, have you ever had a difficult conversation where the night before you're cramming down information? That is what you're doing, right? You're not taking the time to actually develop the skill. And we don't have the opportunity day to day to practice this in a safe environment where we get actual feedback on our performance. Because the thing is, when we are stuck within the echo chamber of our own minds, or maybe if we let other people in, we don't get the exposure to other people's perceptions of us from a neutral perspective, or maybe a perspective that's hostile to us, and we don't fully appreciate the impact that our approach is having on other people. And Then it leads us to blame other people for the failure of the conversation, but not really, really absorbing it for ourselves. So the ability to develop self awareness through this iterative practice, showing up every single week and then actually putting your skills to the test and then having professionals actually rate you. This is incredible. And the results speak for themselves.

Yeah, definitely. And it's so much fun that all the students that are doing this are also are there on voluntary basis. So they don't get paid for it, they don't get, they only gain the soft skills. And it's incredible for us as well to see a group of 20 to 30, 30 students from all types of backgrounds and all types of nationalities come each week to, to help themselves or at least further develop them themselves.

So that's amazing. Cool, that's great. And one little note, we should chat afterwards because I hear you learning some great methodologies. I'll give you some of our own stuff too, so, so you could learn the, the ANI way as well because that I, I, I think we could add something and I know you're already listening to the podcast, so it'll be cool to get over there some of the information over there too. And I, I want you to give the audience a behind the scenes peek on what these, these practice sessions look like. And then we can talk about the competitions too because if you've never done one, it doesn't really make sense and people wouldn't really understand the mechanics. So let's talk about what those practice sessions look like in action and then we'll transition to the competitions.

Definitely. So with the practice session at our association, what we do is we have, we select a case, a case study about anything really. It can be about selling a carpet at a flea market, but it can also be about business to business negotiations with 14 variables. So you talk about delivery time, you talk about price, you talk about maintenance, you talk about all those related things. With the more complex cases, we get the case a couple of days in advance. So as a team you can prepare for half an hour to an hour to really understand the case. Then during the lecture we actually start negotiating or start the negotiation. And what we do with that is actually setting an agenda and making sure we understand, setting the rules of the game, which we also think is quite important, especially when we have multiple cultures, because we also see that culture does play a big impact on the way we negotiate. I'm quite Dutch, I'm quite direct. I also know some people that are less direct. And so you have to navigate that as well when having the strategy and when setting the rules of the game. Then we negotiate for an hour, see if we can make a deal, see if we can improve upon that deal. So see if we can do like post settlement and see if we can make it better. Then we sometimes record the deal as well to make sure that it's just finalized. And then afterwards we get evaluated by our teachers, or at least our teachers. So that's. It's quite, quite cool, I think. And it's nice concepts and you get all the aspects of negotiation except for the implementation. So that's, that's cool.

That's brilliant. And so when you're. Every week you're learning a different approach to negotiation. So then I'm assuming then in the practice session you get an opportunity to practice those specific skills under those specific circumstances.

Definitely, that's what we try to do some two today, four weeks ago we talked about the Black Swan theory. It's quite famously know from that beautiful book I also read. And then something related to that, that theory at least. And then we, we try to uncover those, those unknowns. Unknowns, which is cool. And when we talk about integrative cases, we have an integrative case. When we talk about culture difference, we have. We try to simulate a culture difference. So it's. Yeah, we really are trying and building and creating cases that fit the things we teach because then we can at least learn proactively.

Yes, no, for sure. And one of the things that I love the most, besides the fact that we are. We're learning different methodologies. You get an opportunity to practice those methodologies in realistic circumstances and you get feedback, but you're also intentionally considering culture. And I feel like that is one of the filters that's a lot more tangible and salient when you're in Europe as well, because you travel two hours, you're in a different country, you travel three hours, you span three countries with different cultures, different languages and everything like that. And so there's a more. It's more relevant to you all. But I think a lot of folks who are, for example, live in the United States, we don't recognize the different ways that culture impacts us because we also, we always think about big C culture. So like ethnicity, nationality, geography, those big obvious examples of culture. But then because we're not practicing thinking through a cultural lens, we don't appreciate little C culture, which is just the way that we do things. So for instance, in a company, there are different cultures state to state, there's a different culture, there's a different cadence of speech. If you go to New York versus Mississippi, then those are very different cultures. Right. And so I really appreciate the fact that we are. That you and your team, you're leading with that and helping people to become a lot savvier and more aware of the cultural dynamics and not think about. Think of it as a bad thing that we need to necessarily overcome, but just a. An important factor that we need to incorporate into our strategic approach.

Definitely. And we are quite lucky that the University of Twente is quite an international university. So for us it's quite easy to. To find a lot of international people because within our group there are like three or four Dutch. Dutch people and 20 other nationalities.

Wow.

And even within Europe we have quite some nice ties with some people from Germany, from Greece, from. From Spain, from Poland. So we also actively try to negotiate with them via teams in that case. So it's fine. But then you also see culture in act and that's something we really trying to build up a bit more like in Europe and maybe in the world just have a platform to negotiate with other people and learn cultures and apply negotiation skills or culture skills or just people skills.

Absolutely. So, Kevin, I want to get an idea. I want you to make this really real to the audience too because I want you to describe yourself before joining the negotiation project versus where you are now and what are the differences that have come about from going through this process.

I think for me personally I've been a bit more calm like before. I have been a bit ignorant, I think at the beginning, like it doesn't matter who you are, what you do. I will treat everyone the same. And that's a bit like. I thought it was like a good way of thinking about it, but I. I've just learned way more the last months, year as well. And it's more like it's. Sometimes it's okay to tailor to the need of others. So in that case, that's for culture. A great example and with also proactively, I think for myself I'm a bit less scared of talking to people. I've never been scared to talk to people. But sometimes I got like really big nerves when having an important meeting and now I'm just like, okay, it's just, just another meeting. I can do this. I've done this 100 times before. And if that person is getting angry, then that's fine. I can also navigate that now. If they are disappointed, that's also fine. Like I really can navigate my own emotions better. But really the. Also other. The people emotion from other people way better than before, which is really the power of negotiations, I think as well. So that's. Yeah, that's nice and amazing that I. For me, it's also easy to just say what I've learned because I'm so busy with. I'm so self aware about the things I've done the last month. So that's really, really cool.

That's amazing. So, okay, so we have calmer under pressure and then we have. You're more willing to tailor your message to the person because you're taking the time to understand them. This is such an important point because I remember one time I was trying, I was asking myself, what is respect? And I wanted to like, get a really good answer. The dictionary answer was not very good to me, was like, that doesn't, that doesn't hit it, you know? So I spent literally over a year trying to figure this out. Then I saw this quote from Crucial conversations and they said, respect is. And I'm going to butcher this quote. But in general, they're like, respect is. It's something that's very hard to describe, but once it's gone, it's all you can think about. And at that point, the conversation isn't about the topic at hand. It's all about reclaiming the dignity that you feel that you lost. And what's interesting is that the way that I would respect you is going to be different from the way I respect the person listening to the podcast. Not because I respect one of you more or less, but because whether or not a person feels respected is completely determined by them. And so I need to understand who that person is, where they come from, what they care about, in order to respect them in a specific way. And what's interesting is that sometimes depending on the person and the circumstance, what is very respectful for one person could be incredibly disrespectful to another person.

Right?

And sometimes we find out the hard way, you know, So I remember one time, here's an example. So for me, my family's from the Caribbean, so I'm a child of immigrants. And so every once in a while, even though this is me speaking my American English, sometimes I get excited and the Caribbean accent can sneak in. And so when people say, hey, where are you from? I get excited. I'm like, oh my gosh, I still have it. Well, my dad's from Dominica, my mom's from Guyana, blah, blah, blah. And I go into it. It's fun for me to share my culture. And then I remember one time there was a woman who had an accent, and I was like, oh, where are you from? And she got really off. She didn't like that I was asking, you know, and I realized, oh, okay, you need to feel things out a little bit more. But it's just a simple example of how respect for one person is different from a respect from another person. And then coming back to your journey here, because when I'm thinking about the fact that you're more calmer in these conversations, you feel less stressed, you're more okay with people's responses to what it is that you're asking for. How long did it take you to begin to feel more confident and more skilled? When did you start to feel like the initial flickers of, oh, I'm, I'm better at this now?

Oh, that's a hard question. I would say, like the last, like six to eight weeks ago, I had some meetings. I was really. I didn't like those types of meetings. It doesn't matter what type. Dreams didn't like them. And then, like, when I looked back, like I reflect on myself, I was like, well, I actually was quite calm and I actually was okay having that meeting. I didn't have the nerves during the meeting anymore, which before, I know I had. So it's. I don't think I notice it's like before the meeting. But like, when I look, looked back at it and since then I was like, okay, I think I have gained the confidence or the skill set to do it. And since that moment, like I would say maybe six weeks ago, I was like, okay, now it's there, you know, like all the, at least a lot of tough conversations, let's just, just try to have them. And sometimes it's not going to be fun or pretty, but that's just how it is. And let's navigate it.

So, yeah, that's great. Okay, so you started to recognize it six to eight weeks ago. And then at that point, how long before that was it that you started? Was that like a couple months in or like three months in, or like a week or so? What was it like?

Let's see. Oh, that was 20, 20 weeks. So four months, I think four or five months. Yeah. I mean, I think I would have noticed it a little bit earlier maybe, but I sometimes just don't have the hard meetings, you know, you. You don't look forward to. And I noticed. I know, I know by myself that that was something I didn't really enjoy doing. But I looked back, I Was like, okay, it's fine now. It's okay. It's. Yeah, yeah, it's. It might have been earlier if I had the hard meeting earlier with a tough conversation earlier. But yeah, I. That moment of realization and self awareness again was six, eight weeks ago. I'm not entirely sure.

But yeah, that's amazing. Yeah, because I wanted to know because I know a lot of times people are saying, okay, well I want to do this, I want to get better at this. And then they go and they learn something and they try it, it doesn't work. And they're like, hey, this Negotiate Anything podcast doesn't work. You know, nobody said that, but those are the fake nightmares that I have. You know, like people think that immediately, they could just immediately get better and you can start to see results when you say, okay, well, just simply saying, all right, in the next difficult conversation, I going to ask more open ended questions and focus on listening. That would have a result. But what I love about what you said is that it didn't feel like you were, you know, when Spider man got bit by the spider. And then you start to like radiate or whatever. It's not one of those moments. It's that you have a conversation and it's no longer as big a deal as it used to be. Like you still might feel nerves, but you don't feel concerned that you don't have what it takes to get the job done. And it is just a quiet confidence that you can carry with you in these conversations. And based on the people that I've worked with and other folks I've seen on this journey and then my own personal journey, because I used to be a people pleaser. Is that it? You start to get better very quickly and then it's almost like you're, you feel changed, like you're a different person, you know, and it's really, really powerful. So let's, let's talk about the, the competitions too. Like when you're out actually representing the school. Because it's one thing to talk about the weekly sessions, it's a completely different thing to say. Okay, now there's this pressure because now you're representing the school. Can you talk about where that pressure comes from, how it feels and then what a competition looks like?

Definitely. So I, I will start with the pressure. The pressure comes from the fact that we have qualified like there. Okay. That for us there are like two big negotiation competitions in Europe, or at least around Europe. That's the Warshaw negotiation round and the negotiation challenge. There are some other smaller ones. But yeah, that's. We see that there is going to be more events in the future, so we are already trying to navigate that and also apply for those. Part of the pressure comes from the fact that we have qualified the last since we started each year and we have one couple of them and like we only exist since 2018, but I think we have four or five titles on our name. So that's quite. That's quite, quite nice. And we quite know what we're doing at least. And that's also. We get also recognized from other universities that we are, so to speak, the university of the great negotiators that. So that's a nice title to have. And I think another part of the session is of the pressure is really wanting to perform and really wanting to. To travel and also wanting to. To show your skills on the. The highest level possible, or at least we think what the highest level possible is right now. So. And most competitions have like an online qualifying round because there are like 60 or 70 teams that want to compete in the competitions, but only 16 can go to the finals. So then you have three qualifying rounds online. And the success of your negotiation is measured on two things. Mostly that's the relationship you have with the other party that is filled in via standardized test. And the other part is the deal you've got and how good it is compared to all the parties that are on the same side of the negotiation case. And apparently we as a team did quite well for both competitions because we qualified for both. So we go to Cape Town in three weeks, so in April, and we go to promote University of Twente again at the negotiation challenge. And a week afterwards we go to the Warsaw negotiation round and that's in Warsaw, Poland. And at the competition itself there, it's a little bit more complex flex. So you also have a case, you also prepare for that case, then you negotiate, then you have still the outcome of your deal, then you still have your relationship with the other party, but there's also judges present that are going to evaluate your negotiation style and to see how much they like you, actually. So that's. Yeah, that's just. I'm going to make it hard or easy, but I think it's just how much they like you as a negotiator. And you do that for like four rounds in two or three days. So it's really exhaustive. Like it's. You just have to be focused for six hours a day for. And then two days or three days actually. So it's. But it's really nice and it's really nice networking with amazing teams that are present there as well and not only promoting Negotiation Project 20, but also negotiating as negotiation as a whole and really promote soft skills under for engineers at least that's our mission a bit with having more engineers with good soft skills.

Hello my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question. Have you ever wondered how to elevate your team's negotiation game and how you can help the folks on your team have better difficult conversations? At the American Negotiation Institute, we offer transformative keynotes and workshops tailored to empower professionals with top tier negotiation and conflict conflict resolution skills. Whether it's a keynote for your next event or hands on training for your team, we've got you covered. Don't just negotiate. Master the art with the American Negotiation Institute. Click the link in the description to find out more. Elevate, negotiate and succeed. Kevin, this is amazing and I think one of the most eye opening things that you mentioned just today is the fact that you helped me to realize that my whole life I, I've been pronouncing Warsaw incorrectly. So now I know how to say.

It the right way.

So thank you for this and I love this description because you, you've broken it down exceptionally well. And then you've also helped me to realize that when it comes to the American competitions, there are some things that we can learn from the, the way that you all are doing it with a more global perspective as well. I like the simplicity of the judging as well because we are, when we do judging in hours, we judge people on seven different metrics which I, I see the value for sure. But I think a couple of things sometime lost on the the main focus of negotiation, which are the ones that you said we want to focus on the relationship and the outcome. Like what, what is the quality of the deal and then what is the quality of the relationship afterwards? And then sometimes in order to do that, your negotiation skills as you described at the beginning, it's just a, it is a, it is the series of soft skills that you use at the right time. And so you might get dinged if you're not using like a named negotiation strategy, but that you are flowing effectively building a relationship while getting a good deal, but you might get dinged because the judge doesn't say, well I don't see this, I didn't see that. So well, the reality is we might not have needed it. So by simplifying the judging by focusing on just the relationship and the deal, I think that's really strong. And talk more about how you manage your. Yourself under pressure too, because I think this is a realistic aspect of it because you're going to be in a situation where you're having multiple days of competition, so you're tired like most professionals are very t. You're going to be working really hard and focused for a long time, which creates a little bit of stress and you don't have as much time as you would have liked to prepare. So how did you put yourself in a mindset where all of those external factors and also the internal emotions weren't having a negative impact on your performance?

I'm going to give credit to my team. I have like an amazing negotiation team. One of the things we are really strong at is the analytical skills. Engineers and let go skills. Yeah, it's a bit, it's a bit of cliche, but unfortunately, fortunately it's, it's really so one of the. If you look at preparation, for example, we can really quickly prepare because we can read very fast and really quickly understand the case and we just have the team to, to keep the stress levels in check. One of the things, it's quite nice while we're doing the practice, for example, is you don't get bothered as much with time pressure because you're like, okay, we have five more minutes. Okay, that's five more minutes. That's fine. If you. And then what we see, what we saw with online negotiation rounds was like, okay, we want to wrap up. But then you see some, some hasty decision making at the other, on the other side, they were like, hey, that's fine for us. Like, like we, we, we. We already were prepared on doing it and even before going to the competitions, we did, we planned scenarios and we just, yeah, we have a lot of preparation because we think preparation is quite important for the negotiation and also to. Just to, to know your team quite well. That's. For us it's very important because you have to trust your team and what we do. What I, I blindly trust my team or at least my teammates in making this decision, even if I do not agree at the moment. And that's. Yeah. And that makes sure that my stress levels are a bit more in check and also my other team members, because we believe the decision we make, or at least maybe what one team member makes at that moment is for that moment the right decision. And if it's not the right decision, we try to navigate it back. So it is going to be the right decision. So trust in your team and preparation is, I think, the two most important parts. If you don't have enough time to prepare, fortunately, at least think I can. Can talk quite nicely. So when we start the negotiation, I will just start talking a bit and then my team members can and reread the case again and rewrap their hats around it and then we can. They are well prepared. And I'm just sitting there with, okay, I hope you guys prepared now. I hope you're ready and then it's going to be fine. We have never had a catastrophic failure because we didn't have our stress levels in check.

Amazing. Amazing. And there's one thing that I want to pull out before we wrap up because I could just keep talking to you about this forever is the fact that you said, even if we don't make the right decision, we go about navigating the conversation to make that the right decision. This is so big because so many people are afraid of making a mistake in negotiation. And I said, well, let me tell you something. You will certainly make a mistake in this. It's not possible to be perfect. It's just not possible. And so your job is to be able to recover. So can you talk a little bit more about that process? What does it look like and how do you recover in the moment?

Definitely. So sometimes, like we've had in the past before that I've made a mistake. I know it was my mistake. So what, what we did at that moment as we talked for a bit with the other party as well, and then we said, hey, let's just take a two, three minute break because we, we noticed like it was a bit tense and then we're like, okay, let's take a break now. Let's catch our breaths again, let's talk about it and then come back to the table refreshed because you can do that. We can take with the competitions as well. We can take breaks as much as we'd like, as long as we have a deal at the end. And I think what I saw with in the qualifiers as well is that people are a bit afraid to take a break because I don't know, for us it's just a moment to brief and navigate those challenges or those mistakes or those faults we've made and just reflect a bit back on, hey, what's, what has been said and how do we fix this or how do we navigate this?

So, yes. Oh, you're, you're spot on. I think that's great. And for me Just thinking, like, putting my professor hat on for a moment. I just. I think that that's really admirable, too, because a lot of times people are afraid to take breaks. So, for examp example, one of the things that I do, obviously, with a. And I, we do consulting with big companies, negotiation trainings, but I still teach at the law school, so. Ohio State's Moritz College of Law is actually the number one dispute resolution program in the country. The students are just incredible. And my colleagues on. On faculty are amazing. And one thing that I've noticed a lot of times that. Is that students really struggle when it comes to taking breaks. And I'm just sitting here looking, and I'm saying, hey, this is getting off the rails, which is fine. I mean, that happens in negotiations, but you need to be aware of it and then have the humility to be willing to put it back on track. Because a lot of times what ends up happening when I ask students, hey, why didn't you call a caucus? They're like, oh, I thought I could potentially make it through. I didn't want to take a break because I didn't want to look weak or unprepared. And then I just say, hey, well, listen, I can appreciate that concern, but the consequences of not taking a break were significant. Right. And so you have to kind of pick your poison to a certain extent. And the thing is, I've never been in or observed, like, a real negotiation or mock negotiation where I said, man, they took too many breaks. It's always either they took the right amount or took should have taken some, and they never did, you know? So it just reminds me of when my. My dad was teaching me how to drive, and he taught me, you will make far more mistakes by driving too fast than by driving too slow. And taking a break just helps to control the pace of the conversation and just make sure you're on track. And if slash. When you make a mistake, you can take a break. Break to regroup and get back on track, too. So that's a. It's a really profound point. It sounds very simple, but it is that fear that holds us back, that fear of the perception of other people that prevents us from utilizing one of the most powerful and simple but scariest tools at our tool belt. In our tool belt, which is just simply taking a break.

Yeah, I totally agree. And, like, we take inspiration by all the authors in the field. So this is actually just going to the balcony. Yeah. So just. And what we. We, as a project do is we grab our knowledge from different sources. Like we do not say, hey, this is the holy bible of negotiations. In my, my bookcase here, I have like 10 or 15 books about negotiations. There are way more than that, but it's just about how you, the different perspectives on an issue and the, the metaphor going to the balcony. It's just amazing. Like, just take a break, step, take a step back and see really what's going on. And that's like, for example, that, that specific theory or just that take a break is going to be one of the lectures.

Yes. Oh, that's great.

Yeah, it's, yeah. So that's, that's nice.

I love it. Kevin, this has been fantastic. Before you go, I want you to have, I want to give you an opportunity to shout out the program and then also let people know how they can get in touch and give them one tip. Like your best negotiation tip that they could use to put into practice today to make a difficult conversation easier.

First, my, my, how to get background to thank the Negotiation Project Twente. We are a student led nonprofit association and we'd really love to work with all types of people about negotiations. I really want to bring negotiations to the next level in the Netherlands, May and today the Netherlands, Europe and the world. So if you want to contact us, you can go to, contact me via LinkedIn, just. Kevin Torington. You can go to our website, the Negotiation Project Twente. Yeah, and just shoot me a message and we can see what we can arrange. I really love to collaborate with as much people as possible. And for the tip, I would say, yeah, taking the breaks is actually one of the deal breakers for me. Like just taking a step back, especially like it's, it's, it's nice for the, when you're practicing to just reflect a bit on what happened and then go into the tough conversation again. And don't be afraid to take a break because most people do not really mind, at least in my experience. So, so yeah, that's it.

This is great. Kevin, thank you so much for joining us and thank you for reaching out and thanks for the work that you're doing at the university. It is so important and you are touching more lives than you realize. So kudos, my friend.

Thank you. Amazing.

Ooh, you crushed that. You crushed that. And now after this, about 10,000 or so more people will know about you and the POD and your group and everything you're doing, which is pretty cool, man.

Yeah, definitely. Like when I talked to my board about this, they was like, okay, that's just insane. That you sent an email to them and that they also replied to it. They're like, okay, let's just do it. You know, like I was like, I'm not going to back down now. I just really want to do this. And they are actually quite happy and excited. Excited as well for this.

That's amazing interaction.

So.

Hell yeah, this is. And it shows. Like make bold moves. You know, the, the reality is when you think about what it takes to make a, like a, like a safe move and versus a bold move, the difference is just emotion. Because like this wasn't particularly challenging in terms of work. Like it was probably easier for you to do like a, A prac. One of the practice sessions weekly, but it was hard to send that first email. But then if you start to get in the habit of just taking bold actions, then that becomes your norm. Because when it comes to executing like a simple safe decision versus a big bold decision, the amount of effort is usually pretty much the same, but the effects and impacts are significantly different.

Definitely. And what I like, I always think the worst case scenario is that they say no. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And so this year we also collaborate with Mark Davis for example. And I think you also know Kelt Jensen. Yeah, we also talk to him. And yeah, we, we just really love to, to get the great minds of negotiation and culture to, to twente and to. Yeah. And just share our knowledge and gain more knowledge. So it's just all about making those bold moves. And sometimes they pay off. Most of the time they pay off at least.

Yes. No, man, this is cool. And let me know because you, you'll see the roster of the folks who are on the pod. So if you see anybody else you want to connect with, let me know and I could try to make that happen too.

Oh, that's amazing. Yeah, that's. That's cool.

Well, well don't. I don't want to step on Simone's. I know Simon always has amazing follow up questions. So what you coming up with?

Oh, I have two questions but I want to start with the question about breaks because I was really surprised by that. That's really interesting. And there was a moment in history, 1993, in the negotiation in Oslo. There was. Israel and Palestine were negotiating. So they got to an agreement in Oslo in 1993. At the same time they were negotiating in Washington, but they didn't get to an agreement in Washington. Same parties, same problem, but different contexts. So I was reading a book called the Process by Yuri Savir. He was one of the negotiators on Israel's side. And he said that one of the differences is that in Washington all the breaks were scheduled so they couldn't take breaks whenever they wanted. Whereas in Oslo, one of the PLO or Palestine, this guy always said, hey, I need to call and see what my leader wants to do regarding this problem. And he was not calling, he was actually taking breaks, but he didn't say anything. So the amounts of breaks that they were taking in Oslo was huge. They were taking too many breaks. And that changed, according Yuri Savir, that changed the negotiation. It's been one of the only agreements that have been signed by Palestine and Israel.

Wow, that's. So how do you know this stuff? I tell you, listen, Kevin Simon is like a negotiation savant.

Want.

Just like this is. That's. I've never heard that story. That's so cool. But I mean it just shows like the, the power, the power of the pause. And so we talk so much about silence and negotiation and then we talk about, hey, when you get upset, take a couple deep breaths before responding. But I think about a break as just silence extended. You know, sometimes I take a few seconds, sometimes it might be taking a break for a few minutes, sometimes it might be taking a break and let's come back later today or tomorrow. Sometimes it could be just like that was absurd. I'm taking a break until you come back to the table with an apology, you know, and if we just take, just expand our, our perspective on what a break could be now we have so much more to play with, you know, because they serve a lot of times the same purpose. Like I don't want to respond really quickly when I'm very emotional because I might say something that feels good in the moment that I'll regret once I calm down. And then I can come back with a better strategy as well if I just slow down for a few seconds. And the same thing works in the same, but just over extended over a longer period of time. Whether it's like a 10 minute break, a couple days, a couple weeks. But this is so cool to see such a high stakes example with a conflict that has been happening for centuries because they never agree on anything.

Oh yeah. I also want to say, like I have one example from one of my friends who had, did the negotiation challenge last year and they just had an sort of impasse during the negotiation. Then they took an informal break. So they just went to get some lunch or just have a talk. And then the minute they started negotiating again, they sealed the deal because they were just taking a break and they were just. Yeah, they. They trusted each other a bit more and everything cooled down a bit, and then they. And it helped them qualify to the finals as well. So that's. That's cool.

That's cool.

And you know what I feel is, particularly when I take breaks in negotiation, I associate taking a break with not solving the problem. And that's why it's difficult, because if I say, okay, let's take a break, it's like, okay, I'm just pushing back the problem, and I don't want to face that. So how can I. I don't know, because that's a feeling. You know, I'm not aware of my emotions at that moment because I am in an emotional state. So I say sometimes I've. I've thought, okay, let's go to break. But then I say, no, I need to solve this problem now, and that's a mistake. What can I do at that. This very golden second to say, hey, no, now I have to pause.

You want to take for a shot, Kevin?

Yeah, like, for me, like, I'm lucky enough to have the platform I'm currently in so I can practice taking those breaks. I think that's the. The easiest answer, but the hardest to implement because you, you like. We negotiate every week, have a negotiation. We take two, three, four breaks each negotiation. So we really practice with saying, hey, I need a minute now. Otherwise I would say, or suggest like. Like with the same attitude, like, saying, hey, worst case scenario is that they say no, and then you still have had some time between you asking and then giving the question to calm yourself down a bit.

I like that. And to add to it, one thing that I realize is that I have to become very familiar with myself. There are some patterns that. That everybody has, whether it's personality, whether it's nature or nurture. I think it's more important to just understand where you sit. And so for me, I think about the fact that there are. Sometimes I have very predictable, but not always helpful or accurate emotional responses to situations. So in. In situations where, let's say somebody's being really aggressive, sometimes I might. My natural response, the people pleaser in the past would have been like, okay, I'm going to roll over. I'm going to let this happen and, you know, hope for the best in the future. I don't want to cause any ruckus. So when things get toug. Negotiation and I start to feel, okay, just let them have it. I'm more skeptical of that because that's my. That's my biased response. I need to have a bit of a more evolved response. If somebody's natural response is more aggressive and they're like, oh, that person said something dumb. I need to hurt their feelings right now, then they realize that's their natural response, they need to be more skeptical of that. Right. And so for you, Simone, in this situation, what I think is, okay, if I'm associating with this, taking a break with, like, almost a failure of sorts, one of the things that could help is reframing what that is by your own definition. And so you can think of yourself not as a negotiator in that moment, but almost like a chef trying to whip up a good deal. And sometimes the ingredients will be negotiation skills, but sometimes when you're baking, the secret ingredient is time. You know, if I'm baking a cake and I want to do it in five minutes, I've got some problems. You know, give me the best batter in the world, and it still does not work. So once you realize that, oh, no, I am a high level negotiator, and I recognize that sometimes with these tough deals, the ingredient I need is the right amount of time. And I trust myself to determine what that right amount of time is. Then you can feel more okay with that. And then, Kevin, to your point, sometimes people are so emotional, Usually it's emotion when somebody says, no, you cannot take a break, because that is absurd.

Right.

You know, unless the person's using it as, like, a stall tactic and you're starting to. To catch on. Right? But in a lot of cases, like, I just need to gather myself. I just need to think it through. I need to talk to people who have decision making authority, whatever it is. There are a lot of legitimate reasons to take a break. But if somebody's like, no, we need to finish this right now. What I say is this, because I'm still taking my break, and I will. And I will allow you to get whatever it is out of your system, but I'm taking my break. And so what I'd say is, hey, it sounds like there's something else that you want to say. So if you want to say that, I want to pay you the respect of listening, and so I'll listen and I'll reflect back my understanding to make sure that I got it right. But as far as adding more to this discussion, I don't feel comfortable adding more until I have some time to think. Right, and so then you let them. Essentially, it's kind of like in a fight. You can let the person punch themselves out where they have no more energy. So I'm. So I'll say, great. I'm going to rely on my listening skills and empathy, and I'm going to empathize, and I'm not going to add anything other than sharing my understanding. And then they feel more comfortable giving up. Break. So it's not a question of whether or not I take a break. It'll happen, but it might. It's either now or I'll give you, like two or three more minutes.

Wow.

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