Healthcare Negotiation Strategies: Lessons for Difficult Conversations with James Neilson Watt

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. Thanks for joining us today. With over 10 million downloads and listeners from more than 180 different countries, it's dedicated listeners just like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of of the American Negotiation Institute. Now, before we get into today's insightful conversation, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives. Have you ever found yourself wishing that you could navigate those high stakes conversations with more confidence? Or perhaps you're looking to empower your team with the art of persuasion and conflict resolution? At the American Negotiation Institute, we've crafted special specialized keynotes and workshops tailored for those very needs. We've transformed the negotiation skills of professionals worldwide and we're eager to do the same for you. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And our goal is to help you improve your lives and the lives of those around you, one difficult conversation at a time. Don't let another challenging conversation leave you second guessing. Click the link in the description to discover how we can help you find confidence in conflict, negotiate better deals, and have stronger relationships. Because in the world of business, every conversation counts. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview.

James, thanks for joining us today.

I'm excited to be here, my friend.

Yes, I'm excited to have you. I am excited to have you. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

So I'm a chiropractor by trade, but in 2019, after being in practice a number of years, I launched into sort of the online education space, working with practitioners and clinic owners to help them get more serious about business and really start to turn their practices from liability into asset. And it sounds a bit cheesy, but the reality is that most health professionals, we didn't think to ourselves, I'm going to get into business, so let me go and study for five years about the human body, right? They were practitioners and then they fell into business because they wanted to get more control and make more money. And so then they get into it and they go, holy crap, I don't know how this stuff works. I'm going to pretend I do because I've got a facade to keep up, but deep down it's like, I don't know how to market. I don't Know how to sell. I don't know how to do operational systems. I don't know how to build a team. And so I formed practice owner.com and we've worked with over 500 practices in about 15 countries. Corrective care practices. So I'm talking functional medicine, acupuncturists, nutritionists, that kind of thing where they're solving a problem with a client over a period of time. And we've helped them to add about 60 million in annual revenue collectively and free up more hours, hire people and build sort of a business that allows. Affords them their lifestyle that they want.

That's so exciting. That's so exciting for a number of reasons. So my dad is a doctor. He's a surgeon. He also had a practice that he established. My wife is a doctor and she wants no part of starting her own practice for the reasons that you described. So it's so interesting for me to see the other, like, your side of this too, because you're right, you have a lot of people who are practitioners or specialists in whatever industry they happen to be in. And then it seems almost intuitive, well, great, start a business. But then they don't realize oftentimes that it is a completely different skill. Right. And I remember running into that myself too, because I'm like, hey, I'm a business lawyer. I work with businesses. I can start my own business. That's not, that's not how it. That's not how it works. So. So yeah, there are challenges. So I'm glad we have experts like you stewarding these professionals along the way.

It's like the trap that people fall into is just because you're good at something doesn't mean that you're going to be good at selling it. And then running the business part, like, you know, you might be great at making cakes, doesn't mean that you're gonna have a successful cake business just because you like making cakes and some people like eating your cakes. There's a whole other set of skills that need to be hit. And for practitioners, there's sort of five of them. Like, I don't want to dig too much into this necessarily, but there's. There's five pillars that we see. The first is you've got to be able to attract patients. And to be honest, these five things kind of apply to any business, but we just specifically apply it to healthcare. It's like you gotta be able to attract clients. You've got to be able to convert clients into some kind of. For us, it's a Treatment plan or if you're doing, you know, whatever you're doing, it's some kind of plan that isn't a commoditized sort of session to session thing, right? Like if you're a, let's say, let's say an easy example. Let's say you're a surgeon, right? You don't say, okay, well, I'm gonna, you know, for. I can cut a little bit of the tumor out, I could maybe give you one stitch, right? Like, you don't get to tell me, the surgeon, how much of what needs to happen. It's determined because that's what's required to get the outcome. So if you're a mechanic, it's not like, well, I can give you a little bit of gas, I can maybe do one tire. It's like, dude, your car is broken. Here's what needs to be fixed so that you can get what you want, which is a car that runs and doesn't break down in two days. So being able to actually sell people or convert them into a plan, the third part is retaining them in that plan. So in healthcare, we think that if I'm just good and a client has a problem and they come to me for a solution and I just tell them what to do, they'll just do it. The reality is that most problems, the person wouldn't need you if they were to have followed through with something at some point in time, right? Like if you're overweight, if you've got chronic pain, if you've got some sort of lifestyle disorder, unless you've been hit by a car, probably, there were problems that you didn't change. And when you saw someone or sought information about it, you didn't follow through. And that accumulated over time to where you are now, in a lot of pain, saying, I've had pain for 15 years, but I need you to fix me today. So for us, it's how do we retain a client in the thing that we enroll them in in the first place and then that'll get you full. But unless you develop operational systems and you focus on team growth, you will be in a job that you don't get paid holidays for, and you don't get paid if you don't work. And that's what a practice is. And so that's kind of the approach we take people through, is making sure that they've got all five of those dialed in so that they don't have a job that doesn't have benefits. Most practice owners who are trying to run Businesses.

Yeah, you're spot on, man. Yeah, I'm with you. And as I'm going through these. These five pillars, too, what I'm realizing is that there are persuasive opportunities embedded within each of these stages, which is fascinating. So for the listeners who eat, let's say they're. They're not practitioners who are starting businesses, they might be very settled in their careers and happy with it. The reality is that anybody listening to this can learn from the skills that you teach your clients when it comes to running a successful practice. And so when you think about it through the lens of negotiation, difficult conversations, communication, whatever it happens to be, where would you say are the most difficult conversations that happen for your clients?

As cliche or cheesy as it sounds, I'd say the first difficult conversation is with themselves. To realize, I don't know this, and I need to seek someone who does, who can show me. Because we're all under the illusion that we can just figure it out on our own, as if there's some kind of valor or glory or whatever in doing that. The truth is that it's stupid to think, hey, I'll just figure it out on my own. Why the hell would you do that, right? Like, I'm not going to figure out how to build a car so that I can have a car so I can go down the road. Like, I'm. The first thing I'm going to do is I'm going to go, well, do I even need a car? Second thing is, can I just get an Uber? And third is, I might as well go out and buy a car, right? Like, I'm not going to. That would be my order of thinking. Not let me go and figure out how to create a vehicle from scratch. And even in doing that, like, I have a. I have a Tesla, right? And somebody told me, well, you know, James, that this is all just Mercedes, whatever, this thing here. And I was like, cool, man. Like, I just like my car, right? But them, it was like, it's not even new. And I'm like, why the hell would they do that? Elon Musk is not trying to build this fancy car that's unique and amazing. He's trying to take over the industry with electric vehicles and make it the norm. Before that, electric vehicles were horrible, and now he's made them mainstream. That was the intention, right? And now everyone has now making electric cars. Whereas 15 years ago, everyone was saying, oh, this is crap, and no one wants electric cars and blah, blah, blah, now they're all making Electric cars. Why? Because he changed the industry, because he focused on his outcome. So to kind of go back like, you got to have that conversation with yourself and say, what am. What am I actually wanting? What do I want? Why do I want it? And get really emotional about it. What must I do? Like, what needs to be achieved for me to get that thing? The steps, if you will, and then how am I going to go and solve them? So I learned it from Tony Robbins, it's what he called it. But basically it's like you get stuck with how. And everybody says, you know, I want a million dollars, so how am I going to make it? You're like, well, I don't know how. Shit, I'll just stay in my job, or I want a pay rise, or I want a better relationship with my. With my wife or my kids, or I want whatever I want to look like. Arnold. Right. How am I going to do it? You can't answer how because if you knew how, you would already be doing it. And even if you know the technical steps, knowing and doing are different. And so if you know how but are not doing it, you don't really know how because there's a block that's in the way. So having a hard conversation allows you to go, I want a pay rise. That's what I want. This is why I have all these emotional reasons as to why I must get a pay rise. What has to happen for me to get a pay rise? Well, I have to be more valuable, or at least perceived more valuable to my employer. I have to go out and, you know, probably they need to notice me, they need to see my value. I probably need to ask for it, right? And then it's like, so how am I going to do it? Well, the first thing is I'm going to assess the level of value that I think I provide and look at how I can improve that level of value. Then I'm going to go and be around the people that need to know that I have that value so that when I go and ask for more value myself, it's an immediate conversation of, well, yep, that makes sense, because I don't want to risk losing you, right? And. But if I just said I want to be paid more, how do I do it? We go up and say, give me more money, and the boss says, no, why would I do that? Right? And then we go, oh, it doesn't work. And this is unfair. And it's because I'm X, Y and Z, because we didn't have the hard conversation with ourselves first and said, you know what I need to know, I need to have that conversation with me. Then I need to go and figure that plan out and then I need to go and take action on it.

Makes so much sense and it's so many people have talked about this to the internal negotiation and the reality is so many people don't do it. That's why we still need to have the conversation about internal negotiations. Kwame sitting down with Kwame and figuring out what Kwame wants. Right. So that type of stuff. What is the block that holds people back from doing it and doing it well, in your opinion?

Hello, my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question. Have you ever wondered how to elevate your team's negotiation game and how you can help the folks on your team have better, better difficult conversations? At the American Negotiation Institute, we offer transformative keynotes and workshops tailored to empower professionals with top tier negotiation and conflict resolution skills. Whether it's a keynote for your next event or hands on training for your team, we've got you covered. Don't just negotiate. Master the art with the American Negotiation Institute. Click the link in the description to find out more. Elevate, negotiate and succeed.

Yeah, my, in my opinion, I say in my opinion, right? So it's not offensive. My opinion, people will fight to remain miserable to avoid discomfort. It is uncomfortable changing. So what am I going to do? I'm going to justify to maintain my current position because even though I am miserable, it's too uncomfortable to go and do those other things, to think about those things, to realize I'm not actually enough to be worthy of a pay rise because my value is right. Like that. For example, back to that analogy. They say that you were best suited to the job that you got promoted from last, right? You were amazing and you got promoted. Why haven't you been promoted since? Because you suck. You should have been back where you were. You know what I mean? Like that. And that's harsh because it's, it's, it's kind of like it's the truth. Like, you were so good, I thought, man, this person's amazing. I'm going to promote them. And I haven't got another promotion in 10 years. Either there is no more promoting or I haven't been amazing enough at this position to go to that next one. So for me it's like, well, okay, so what would I need to do to get bad? We have that internal dialogue and then we go, okay, it's going to be uncomfortable. Am I willing to push through that? So it's the reason why the 1% in any group have all of the cake and whatever it is, because they're willing to do the things that the 99% aren't and push through that discomfort to allow them to achieve the result on the other side. Right. Because they're not just looking and going, this is hard, this sucks. And making excuses. They go, what I want and why I want it is far more. If I don't achieve that, it's far more uncomfortable than any discomfort that I'm going to have to go through the short, medium and long term to achieve that thing. And so they are unwilling to remain miserable and they will push through that discomfort.

It makes a lot of sense. And it's so interesting too, because like we said, nobody, not nobody, few people do this, few people do this. But the people who do, they get better results. And I think a big part of it is the fact, like you said, it's uncomfortable. It's uncomfortable to create change, but it's uncomfortable to have this conversation with yourself and then stumble upon some really sometimes dark, maybe troubling or hurtful realities about ourselves. Right. And a lot of times people don't go through this introspective process because it simply does not feel good. You know, that's, that's why. And so they say, all right, you know what? I'll just let me not do that. Let me not open that door again. And then they find themselves kind of stuck in that same spot.

Yeah, 100%.

Yeah. Now, one of the things you talk about is an outcome focused mindset. And I love this because this is something I said a lot in my second book, how to have difficult conversations about race, because a lot of times these conversations, they just emote and it's just two emotional people talking at each other while trying to hurt each other's feelings. And so you have to stop and ask yourself, hey, what is the goal? What's the point? Why am I having this conversation? What's the outcome I'm looking for? And so it's great that you. That I saw that in our preparation document too, because I. The outcome focused mindset, it has benefits outside of difficult conversations. So when you're thinking about it within your business and the coaching that you do, what does outcome focused mindset mean to you?

So I'll set this up for me. I've realized from reading books and like, trying to figure this stuff out for myself because I, you know, had a Lot of depression, anxiety in the past and, you know, most of my life up until a few years ago now, but it was like early twenties and everything before. And now looking at it and trying to. I've got kids and I'm being a role model and I'm trying to achieve bigger things and. And all this kind of stuff, I sort of started to realize that the purpose of life is the enjoyment of time passing, right? Like, time is going to pass. I don't know how much time I have. It'd suck if I got hit by a bus tomorrow and I only had today and I didn't enjoy today. And so this kind of stoic sort of philosophy for me, looking at that is my. My bank account of time is being spent. I can't control that. I can only control where it's being spent and how I feel about the spending of that time. And so focusing on the fact that I've got a finite amount of time, but I don't know how much of that is, like, at what point is finite, right? And then enjoying that passing of time and something. So if I link it to, you know, outcome, mindset, for me, it's like, so therefore, what is my outcome in any particular situation? My focus, there has to be an outcome, otherwise I am allowing time to be spent and I have no control over it. My outcome could be as simple as just enjoy the time that I have with my kids. Today I'm at my friend's house, enjoy the time there, build connection. But I'm trying to think about how I'm spending the time without it controlling me and creating an opposite effect of anxiety about, oh, my God, I'm not spending my time properly, but just being aware of, you know what, there needs to be an outcome for this. Otherwise why am I doing it? Right? If I'm with my wife on a date, but then I'm on my phone the entire time, why was I on the date? And why didn't I just get the work done more efficiently and then spend the time with the wife more efficiently, right? Like people say I'm present with my kids. It's like, but you're not really. You'd be better off having been at work and actually done work properly and then being with your kids for one hour and done it properly than you would have for three hours of not doing it properly. And so, you know, because being present is not just being present as being present, right? So for me, it's like, what's my outcome in any particular situation? So I can maximize the spending of that time in an efficient way that I'm enjoying the passing of it. And the other side of that is growth. If I'm not aware of my outcomes, then I'm not able to further improve myself and grow and realize more things. Like, when I started doing a podcast, I sucked at it. And then I got really good. And then I was able to come on shows like yourself, because people knew who I was and I had other cool guests. And so then you would say, hey, you know, it makes sense to bring James on. And so then I started thinking about, I'm like, I want to be able to have a conversation with Elon Musk. Let's say Elon is not going to talk to me until he can justify doing so because the passing of his time is so valuable that he can't talk to everybody. So I've got to be able to create growth that would allow me to have new experiences in the future that I never thought possible today. But I know through that outcome focused growth that I will be able to create things in the future. So for me, with the podcast, for example, like, I got to talk to people like yourself that I would never have previously thought about being able to do so because I went up the, you know, the ladder, so to speak, in my growth. And it comes down to a funny meme that I saw. It was a. It was. Somebody asked, like in the comments of social media, they're like, vampires are always so rich. Like, how do they make their money? And somebody commented underneath and they were like, if you were born in 1730 and it's. And you ain't rich in 2020, just walk into the sun and point being that, like, at that, with that amount of infinite time just doing some stuff towards something, you're going to get some growth. And if it take 300 years, you can't get any money. Like you are doing something wrong. And so for me, I laughed and I looked at that, went, that's true. Now I don't have, I don't know how much time I have, but I'm going to negotiate with myself, if you will, to make sure that I'm focusing on the enjoyment of time passing and growth. And both of those things for me means knowing my outcome in any situation, even if it is just to enjoy myself in the present moment, you know, to learn something about one of my kids that I hadn't realized before or to build a deeper connection with a friend. Not always make money or, you know, whatever.

This is great. I love this too, because it ties perfectly into the first point, right? Where we're talking about the first negotiation that we have to have is with ourselves. And then once we have that negotiation, we see value in what it is that we're going to do next. Our next steps should be made with some level of intentionality. Right. And so let's say again from the context of a difficult conversation, great. I have that conversation with myself. I understand who I am, what I hope to accomplish, how I hope to accomplish those type of things. I have to have this conversation and I want to make sure that I'm very clear on the outcome that I want to achieve for myself. And at the same time, too, they should be doing the same type of cost benefit analysis. And we have to be mindful of how we approach the conversation so they understand that there's value in having that conversation. And the key to doing that is showing alignment of objectives.

Right.

And that's not always easy to do, especially in situations of conflict. But if you zoom out further and further, then you can see that that type of overlap. And so I'd be interested, James, to explore with the relationship that you're having with your clients, medical professionals who are growing their practices, there are going to be times where there's going to be some resistance to maybe some of the suggestions that you have for them. When you're thinking about the internal negotiation that you have with yourself leading up to the conversation and then the conversation itself, what does that process look like for you?

So I've found that most people, if I, if I know that there is some level of objective truth to what I'm saying, the only reason that you wouldn't accept and action that is because of a lack of understanding as to why that is the objective truth. And so what I see is like I did with my patients, it's why is Dave not coming in for his appointments? Right? Probably because he is lacking the information to be able to make the right choice, which would be to attend his appointments. Now, that lack of information could be, he doesn't know why this is going to get him a result. He doesn't know why. If he doesn't do this, there are going to be consequences that he is going to be uncomfortable with or he doesn't realize that the benefit of doing it right. Like, it's like there are consequences of taking actions and not taking actions. And if they don't understand those consequences, they don't have the information. They can't make that decision. If I don't know that, if I keep smoking I'm very likely to get cancer, and that's going to suck. Then I'm going to just keep smoking. Because the benefits of smoking outweigh the negatives of smoking. If I understood that, that having cancer is going to be so horrible that even if my chance is low, I really just don't want to have cancer because I can embody that experience today instead of 20 years from now, then I'm probably going to stop smoking. Because even if I may not get cancer, that the risk, reward, benefit is very much not in my favor. And so I'm going to change, right? So I'm knowing the problem and I'm knowing the outcome, and I'm knowing the solution fits that journey that I'm trying to take from solving my problem to getting what I want. And so I realized, okay, they're probably missing some information. Some of that information is because I might not have communicated that in a way, first of all, communicated it at all. B, communicated in a way that that made sense, or C, communicated in a way that aligned with their internal understanding of what's going on too. So it's a matter of figuring out, okay, so what does this person want so they can understand and where. Where are they right now so they can understand that the information I'm providing them is the vehicle for them to get what they want, which is an outcome being both positive and reduction of the negative, whatever they're currently experiencing. So if I'm like, you need to raise your prices and the person says, no, but you know, I don't want to do that. If I don't say why, and then they don't tell me what they believe, I can't then mold that and go, okay, but you understand X, Y and Z, you haven't raised your prices in three years based on that, you're actually losing money because of the purchasing power from inflation. And they go, oh, didn't think of that. I'm like, yep. Or they like, oh, I'm going to lose all my clients. So you have a belief, and that's what's holding you back. Because you don't have the information to know. Here is how to do it without losing your clients. So now you have the information, you can go, ah, so I won't lose clients. No. Great. I can now make the decision to raise my prices because I have all of the information available to me to make the right decision. Because an educated decision cannot happen if a person doesn't have all of the information, because then it's not educated. Right.

I Like that. I like that last point a lot. Yeah, you're absolutely right. Essentially, if we're thinking about it, let's think about it from a medical perspective, too. I can't. You might be presenting with a problem, but unless I have an appropriate diagnosis, I don't know what the solution is. And a lot of times people in these conversations, they'll say, oh, okay, let's use the example that you gave. I'm working with a client. I'm suggesting that they raise their price. And then they say, no, I don't feel comfortable doing that, or, no, I don't want to do that. Then I come up with a set of assumptions as to why that is. Oh, maybe they're afraid of doing this, or maybe they don't know the information, whatever it happens to be, but it's still an assumption. And then they operate as if that assumption is true. But what you're saying is you need to slow it down, focus on the other person, get curious to figure out what the challenge is. What do they think? What do they feel? What do they believe? And then we can approach the rest of the conversation with a higher level of precision.

Exactly. Something I'll quickly add to that. I see it as I've got to. I've got to know what they want, I've got to know where they are, and I've got to understand the obstacles in that journey, like the literal obstacles between A and B. But then I've also got to understand their personal obstacles. So what have they tried before? If anything, why did that fail? Where is their mindset at? Do they really want what they're saying? Because if I said to you, do you want to know how to be a billionaire? You'd probably say, yeah, sure, right. But then, like we talked about before, are you willing to go through the discomfort to become a billionaire? Sacrificing Netflix, for example, would be top of the list. Let's say you love watching Netflix. Well, you're going to give up Netflix to be a billionaire. I don't know. I really like my show and, you know, I enjoy it with my friends. And. And now all the reasons come up, right? So you may want the thing, and you may have enough pain because you're broke, but that doesn't mean that you are going to actually go through the discomfort to get it. So I've also got to understand that layer. And then through that, I can present not only the solution, because the solution is, for example, how do I make more money? You work more. Right. You know, well, I Can't work more. My job's eight hours. Get another job. You know, like, we've all got 24 hours in a day, eight for sleeping, eight for working, and then what are you doing with the other eight? Are you working on your future? Are you working another job, which is therefore creating money so you can work on your future? Like, what are you doing? So the answer to I want more money is invariably just work more and then work smarter. But the question is, is that person going to have the resources to go and do that internally? Because they really want it, They've got enough pain, and there aren't beliefs that are holding them back. So my sales process for whether it's getting you to join my program because I know that it's the right vehicle for you, whether it's getting my kid to wear pants, whether it's, you know, negotiating with my wife because I want to go and watch the latest, I don't know, Deadpool movie and she wants to see the Notebook. I've got to understand those things that might hold back even the logical understanding as to why this is the right thing to do. Otherwise I'm not going to be able to influence that person and get what I want and therefore give them what. What they want, etc.

Yeah. Oh, that makes a lot of sense. Makes a lot of sense. And of course, I always love that, the bringing back to the family side, too, because, again, these principles work. Humans interacting with humans. We can just find unique ways to apply that at home, at work, in different contexts. And when you think about the challenges that your clients have as they're building the practice, how often do you see those challenges manifest themselves in negotiation settings or conflict?

Like we said, the first and most obvious one is always the conflict they have with themselves. I think that we can attribute, I would argue, almost all of our problems back to how we negotiate with ourselves. Like, if you're waking up in the morning and you're trying to get up early, why can't people get up early? Because they. They allow themselves to negotiate in a. In a way that says, oh, you know, it'll be all right. I'll just get a bit half an hour later. Like, it's warm right now. It's going to be cold. It's going to be. It's like, dude, just get out of bed, right? Like, It's. You have 100% control. Set your alarm earlier, and then when you wake up, you stand up. But we don't, because we. And we allow ourselves to negotiate, but in a negative way. And instead of negotiating where we say, no, this is what's going to happen. So something else I learned from Tony Robbins was I don't negotiate with myself. So if I'm going to get up early, I'm going to get up early. There is no, well, I'll just do two more minutes. Because two more minutes tonight or today leads to five tomorrow, which leads to I'll just get out of bed at 10 o' clock because I feel like I need to. All I need to, because I need my sleep and all this justification. So the first thing is that it manifests as negotiating with yourself too much. Instead of the negotiation being, I'm not going to negotiate, this is what's happening. Because I've to kind of link, this is like the negotiation I've had is I'm going to get out of bed early. So therefore when I go to get out of bed, I'm not going to negotiate with myself to justify not getting out of bed early. I suppose that's what I'm trying to say. The second thing is then actually doing that with the people around them. So whether it's their clients or their staff or their family, like a lot of people allow their family to hold them back from doing the things that they know they need to do for themselves and their family because their family may be trying to protect them, right? Because they're just scared the family member is not knowing that by doing this they're actually detrimentally affecting this person's life like parents do with their kids. I just want to protect my kids. So, you know, like, look out, little Timmy, don't, don't hurt yourself. Telling your child to not hurt themselves is not going to stop them from hurting themselves. It's just going to stop them from attempting to do anything where they would gain, gain a level of growth and understanding about themselves. My opinion is just don't allow them to play on the road so then they won't get hit by a car. So that the box is defined, that means that they can't die, but are now they're not micromanaging their safety. I've just created the box that means that they would be safe, but they can still hurt themselves a little bit. They need to run and fall over to learn, but not run and fall over and get hit by a car. Right? Like create the container of safety. So, but what we do is we have our own anxieties and put them on our family members. Right? Your mother might say, oh, you know, don't, don't you know, you shouldn't be investing in this. You should be, you know, you should just have a job. It's like, thanks, but I'm going to go and do what I need to do. Right. And so we allow our family members to dictate we don't have in those hard conversations. Our spouse is a big one. A lot of us are working from home more, and we're allowing our families to come in and disrupt what we're working on. Because there's this, like with my kids and wife, for example, when you first start working at home, there's this feeling of, well, dad's home, so I can just go and be with dad. And in reality is, if I was leaving and going to work, you wouldn't be coming to my workplace and disrupting the flow. You wouldn't be ringing me every five minutes and disrupting the flow. So we're not having those hard conversations and, and, you know, negotiating, defining the boundaries that need to be set for us to achieve things. And then for me, once you've kind of rolled that out, it comes back to you again to go to the next level and to have the next level of negotiation and establishing of outcomes for yourself so you can face the new obstacles. So if someone is listening to this and they're stuck, it's like negotiating with yourself to begin with to just do the things that you need to do. And then you'll notice barriers with friends, family, clients, and then you'll come back. Once you solve those, you come back to you to negotiate up to the next level. And then you'll face the new obstacles and then the next level and the new obstacles. That's kind of the way that I visualize it.

I love that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because again, it builds on what we talked about before internal negotiation. And I love the fact that you focused on those negotiations we have with the people who are closest to us. Families, friends, loved ones, those type of things. Especially when you're trying to do something big, something risky, something scary, like starting a business. Um, I remember one time I was doing a coaching session with, with somebody, and they were trying to figure out how to negotiate these deals for investment in their, in their organization, for their new company. Great.

Cool.

So tell me about the deals. Tell me about the setup with your team, all that type of stuff. And then they talked about the fact that their, their loved one fiance was on the team, but they, like, she was like part of the leadership team. She needed a piece of equity as well. And then considering the equity with the investors And I was like, listen, listen. The most important negotiation you need to have is with her. You need to get that settled down first before you start bringing in other people. Because again, this is a relationship you're going to have regardless of the business that needs to be set. And if you don't handle that, it's going to be very draining. Regardless of the direction of the business, the business could be going well, but if it doesn't work out, if the business doesn't work out, you still want to have the relationship, right? That's really important, and people often overlook it. So in the business world still, we might focus on our clients, we might focus on our colleagues at work, but we still need to be taking care of the negotiation with ourself first. And then secondarily, we have to have those difficult conversations with family members, establish boundaries, get by in those type of things. And it makes every other difficult conversation easier. Not completely easy, strong.

But you. It kind of like it. It's like if. If I'm made of paper and I'm walking past things that have splinters in them, it's going to tear the paper, right? And I'm going to be trying to negotiate with the wood and the leaves and. Because everything on paper and I'm just going to tear because I'm soft. If I've solved me first and now I'm steel, I'm diamond, the leaves and the twigs and the wood doesn't affect me because those little spikes that might be on the splinters on the wood, I just graze past them. And now it's all smooth. Because I'm the diamond, right? Like, I think that's a good way to think about it. It's like, I've done the work here, so when I go out there, those things, A, don't affect me, and B, just get smoothed down straight away. Like it's. Life's much harder when you're trying to negotiate. For example, a pay rise if you have no value of yourself. Because when you show up, why would I perceive that you to be. Why would I randomly just decide to pay you more money? That money could have been put towards something else that creates growth. As a business owner, I'm looking at everything as an investment. So if I'm going to pay Stacy 10 grand a year more, am I getting a multiple on that as a return? That return could be keeping Stacy, because losing her would be way more expensive than the extra ten grand a year I'm paying. It could be because she's learned a new skill. Set. And now I'm able to gain an extra 50k a year return on that extra 10k that I'm paying her. But if I'm getting no gain, because it doesn't really matter if you leave and you're not giving me anything that I'm going to create a multiple on, I'd be better off hiring someone else for the same wage as you and using that 10 grand on marketing or on getting a software. Because it's an investment. You know, we're in business, we've got to, you know, have our humanity, but it's an investment. I'm hiring a person to solve a problem or to facilitate something. And so if that investment is not returning, it shouldn't exist in the business.

You know, exactly right. No, it makes a lot of sense. And again, seeing that value in yourself, solidifying that for yourself before you go forward makes you more confident. And confidence by itself is a lot more persuasive too, you know, so that's important too. Well, I know we're coming up on time. I want to be respectful of time here. But before you go, can you remind the listeners again about your company and your podcast and how they can get in touch with you?

So if you check out practice owner.com, you can find out all the information. But we work with practitioners and clinic owners who are doing corrective care. So if you're offering session to session services and you're wanting to look at doing more programs of treatment, or your master therapist, you work with someone for a series of visits, we can show you the five pillars of successful practices that we've found working with over 500 of them. And we teach and train you and mentor you through patient attraction, patient conversion, patient retention, operational systems and team growth so that you can build a business that means you get the benefits of that business. Because if you negotiate with yourself and have a hard look, you're probably running a practice that is a job with no benefits. And so if you're interested in learning about how you can do that, make more money, help more people, have more time, freedom, check out pipescence.com love it.

James, thanks so much for joining us. Really appreciate it.

I appreciate you, dude, this is heaps of fun.

Congratulations. You've just joined an elite club by listening to a full episode. You're now officially on the Negotiate Anything team. So welcome aboard. What most team members do is they subscribe to the podcast because that allows them to to automatically get the latest episodes of the show. The best things in life lie on the other side of difficult conversations. Keep learning, keep practicing, and keep getting better. Your relationships will improve, your career will soar, and you'll have the confidence you need to get the most out of these crucial conversations. Again, thank you for joining the team. We're excited to have you, and I.

Will see you in the next episode. I'll catch you later.