Highlight Reel: Pro Selling Tactics to Help You Close More Deals!

Hey, I'm Kwame Christian, and you are about to step into the world of Negotiate Anything, the number one negotiation podcast in the world, where we teach you how to make difficult conversations easier while getting more of what you want in the process. Each episode is packed with practical tips and strategies from the experts. We delve into negotiation, conflict resolution, and leadership skills that are crucial in both business and and in life. Whether you're closing a deal, managing a team, or navigating personal relationships, Negotiate Anything provides you with the tools you need to succeed. Our conversations are real, relatable, and most importantly, rooted in practicality. So if you're ready to transform your conversations and elevate your negotiation skills, join me on Negotiate Anything. Subscribe and listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you love to listen. Let's make every conversation a winning negotiation. So when it comes to sales and negotiation, a lot of times people conflate those two art forms. But in your perspective, what are the differences between the two?

Well, I think sales, as most people would think about it, is the act. It should be, in my opinion, the act of helping somebody buy. Right, Right. Like people, they say all the time, people don't like to be sold to, they like to buy. And I think that's really the goal. And if we're talking about sales in terms that I think about, which is where somebody, the prospect, the buyer needs help making a decision, then that's where somebody else comes in, the sales professional. So we're not talking about when somebody needs to just order something that's easy, and they can just go online and they can buy it themselves or they can call in, you know, you know, like ordering off a catalog like back in the old days, where you just call in, you get somebody in customer service, they're taking an order, and then that's it. Sales is about helping somebody identify what it is that they need, and then seeing if you have the right solution for that and then moving that transaction, that communication forward. Right. So, you know, using the thought and the idea of a consultative close, where it's like understanding the person, then moving them forward, that would be sales. Now, negotiation, to me is about when two people maybe are on different ends or have two different goals or there might be something in common, is trying to find that common ground to then move it forward or for both sides to get what they want and win in some fashion.

Right. And I think the connection between the two disciplines is really clear, and I think that's why it's so tough for people to often see the difference. But I really like the approach that you have when it comes to the definition of sales. Helping somebody to make a decision. Because with that, it completely shifts the way that people think about it. Because oftentimes it's, how can I convince them that this is the right decision? Or almost, maybe in a more nefarious way, how can I force them to make the decision I want them to? How would you describe your typical approach to sales?

The best way I could describe it. I spoke with a gentleman early this morning as well. And the thing that I actually would share with him, I'll share with you. It's all about building value. We've all heard Glengarry Glenn Ross, the idea of ABC always be closing. Well, that stuff doesn't work. It may have worked for one time, it may work in some industry, but typically those are the guys that we all shy away from. It's the sleazy sales that we don't want to mess with. I like the idea of value based, right? I like to be able to bring value to the table. When I define sales, I define it very simple. The simplest way I can share is that when you try to help others persuade themselves to get something, a product or service that's going to be in their best interest, for which they will compensate you for your efforts. So your job becomes this educator of value. For instance, if I am a doctor, say a chiropractor, and I know the benefit of healthy adjustments can do for individuals, especially those with lower back pain, and to be able to have a better way of life and function, it's my obligation to be able to educate someone about that service that, that they may not have known about, of how it can help them to have more peace and not wake up with pain or to go to work with pain, it becomes that moral obligation for me to dispel to share value and educate people that they can make decisions. You want your clients to make a decision for themselves as opposed to them feeling that you trick them into doing something. One of my first episodes was with Jeffrey Gittamer. And Jeffrey said, people like to buy, but they sure hate to be sold. No one in their right mind would say, I want to get sold something today. It's like, no, people want to go and buy something. If anyone tell you I got sold a car, they're disappointed, they're frustrated, they're angry. They want to return that car because they got sold, quote, unquote, bamboozled, tricked into getting it hoodwinked. If people say I bought a car to feel more in control. And our job as sellers is to educate people that they feel in control, that they take that initiative and say, I did this, that I bought this car, and they'll go around and tell other people more about you. So that's my approach is to really, really go forward and express value, share value, and give value back in return. And we can give value in so many different ways. And we could talk about that as well.

Yeah, this is really great. So how about we just start off with identifying whether or not it's a good deal. Can you tell us a bit more about that?

Yeah. So, I mean, when I was in sales, I did 10 years of corporate sales for Xerox and American Express. And at the end of the day, we lived in this, you know, kill and eat type of mentality. Right? You always going after whatever was showing up. And as even entrepreneurs sometimes, we often filter out whether a client is a good prospect or not as well. Do they have a credit card and a pulse? And that sounds like a really good idea. Only to find out that if we pursue every single opportunity like that, we can end up getting stuck in what I like to call the winner's curse. You can sometimes win the deal and then curse yourself every single day that you're dealing with this terrible client, the one that's taking up too much time, demanding way too much, doesn't understand the value. And so when we started the program, Kayo Sales U, I wanted us to start looking at from a different complete mind shift, where it wasn't that we had to go out there and talk to every single person, but rather, you know, ask yourself, when I'm sitting in an opportunity with a client, is this the right person for me? Do they fit that ideal buyer Persona for myself? Do I want to work with them when I understand what their goals and ambitions are? Does. Does that make me really excited? And if the answer is no, I think we need to be much more careful and respect ourselves a little bit more in the idea that we can actually walk away from those opportunities, we'll talk a little bit more about whether they have the budget and other types of lead qualification aspects of this. But when we start to understand that we don't need to say yes to everybody that has that credit card and the pulse, we can actually hold ourselves as a higher ground, and ultimately it will allow our prospects to want us even more.

I love this point. And like you said, I think this is a great opportunity for us to transition to empathetic reversal as a potential tool that we could use in the sales process. So can you tell us a bit about what that means?

Yeah. So if we're talking about like negotiation and where this conversation kind of started and the difference between sales and negotiation is there's almost always times when in a conversation between a salesperson and a prospect, they're going to have questions. Now sometimes those questions are just light, surface questions and they're just curious. And there's sometimes where it's full blown, hard stop, here's an objection, you better handle this or else. And there's variations in between. Sometimes sales reps get defensive or eager when they hear any question. They think this is a hard objection and they've got to like battle it. And so that's another total sidebar to this. But sometimes people just have questions. There's also another thing that happens where sometimes people need to ask a question just to check it off of their mental list, Typically either for their own sake or for somebody else's sake. And a perfect example of that would be I've dealt with people for a long time, helping them by. And there's usually after we get done with the phone call, there's somebody else they're going to have to go to that's going to ask them about what happened and they're going to have to explain it and that person's going to put pressure on them. For example, if, you know, let's say I bought something and then I'm talking to my parents and they're like, well, did you ask this? What about this? Did you get a warranty? Did you do this? Did you have this right? Because they have the experience and they're looking out for me and they're trying to protect me and I've got to have those answers or I look bad or I've got to like make up stuff, or I've just got to lie and pretend that I did ask the questions. Sometimes what happens is that people get trained to ask those questions. Check the box so they can tell that other person, the spouse, the parent, the adult children. And so you've got to understand the difference in that scale. And then it comes into empathetic reversing, which is when somebody asks a question, it's important to answer that question as best as you can. Also succinct, shorter the better. Because going back to your, the earlier part, when somebody who's trying to convince you to do something, usually when they answer, it's a long winded answer, right? It's a lot of like verbal stuff. They're throwing the whole kitchen sink at you, trying to convince you to overcome that problem. People who are professionals give short answers, right? They just come at you with the short ones. So empathetic reversing is where you answer it and then you reverse it. Normal reversing. And you probably know this is where you answer a question with a question, which is super annoying if you do.

It a lot, right?

Absolutely. This is great. So in your sales approach, how do you get them to feel as though they made the decision themselves?

The best way to do this is to go back to 2000, 3000 years ago. AM I getting my numbers right? I don't know. Going back a while back to the Greeks and you want to go to the idea of Socrates where you utilize questions to help others to make decision for themselves. Like for instance, if I was to ask a prospect a particular question about something that I know that they're having trouble with. I was working with a client the other day about he sells to libraries.

Believe it or not.

And libraries, you know, they need to be sold to. But one of the things that we talked about was what are some of the things that matter most to libraries? What are some of the key metrics they look at? Maybe that's the demographics of individuals that are the checkout rate and you know, what's what demographics they have coming into the library and utilizing the library. If I was to then share something like to the library and say, you know, one of the things I realized from our studies that many libraries have trouble with the age group 25 and under to increase their checkout rate. What are some of the things you guys are doing right now to help with that demographic? And they might say, we've thought about it and we did a little barbecue. But if I was to ask appropriate questions that was to hit on that maybe share with them something that they don't know already. Well, I can say I'm working with Farm Field Library. And one of the things that they did was they implemented electronical program for tablets. They've seen a 20% increase in the checkout rates for that demographics. If something like that was implemented in your library, do you think that could be of effect? And you know, by asking questions, they might say, yeah, would you consider checking something like that out or learning a little bit more about that? I was like, sure, if Farm Fuel is doing it, I'd love to check it out as well. I just gave a simple example here and this just going along. But the concept that I'm getting at with equami is that when you ask questions, people can be led down a path and they can feel that they're making a decision that's going to benefit them because they're going to be the one that drive it. They're going to be the one that say yes. Again. It's not like any trick or a hoodwink, but when you ask questions, one of the best way to teach people is by proposing things to them. And when they feel that they are learning and they feel that I gained this knowledge, as opposed to me telling them, you need to get this. Other libraries have this. You should get this. It's going to help you. We have so many different ways. Cool tricks, cool widgets. It doesn't work. Telling isn't selling. It's when you ask and you listen. That's when you truly sell because you allow your prospect to then answer and to make decision that's going to move themselves along to a buying decision that's we know it's in their best interest and that they come to realize it's in their best interest as well.

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Some of the best skills you could ever have as a salesperson, as a business owner, as somebody just in business development, is just being genuinely curious. I mean, there's a reason why, you know, you gain so much in your first year working as a salesperson. It's not because you're more skilled than anyone else. It's because you don't know. And so you just ask a lot of questions. This is the other thing that a lot of people that will come to me and say, well, I'm an introvert, right? I'm introverted or I don't really. I can't sell because I don't want to be in those rooms. I can't be pushy. And I'm like, good, you shouldn't be. Because all you really need to do is you need to ask better questions, continue to ask them. And what does that mean? And why is that important? And when you achieve that, Mr. And Mrs. Customer, how will that make you feel? Because at the end of the day, I mean, Maya Angelou said this all the time. She said, people will forget what you said and they'll forget what you did, but they'll never forget how you felt. And so we want to make sure we understand how a client will feel once they've achieved that level of success. And making sure that every meeting that we're with them, we leave them feeling greater than where they were when they started.

I love it. No, this is beautiful. I think this is a great place to start. Okay, so with this approach, how do you prepare? What does the typical preparation process look like for you?

Best thing I would say right now is go back to what I talked about at the top of the episode is when we, I think I mentioned it, this concept of maybe it wasn't done this one. But I talk so much about sales all day, man. But maybe let's just focus on. On the idea of getting your dream 100 customers. A guy named Chet Holmes wrote a book called the Ultimate Selling Machine. And late Chet Holmes, he passed away several years ago now. But one of the things he spoke about was getting a dream list. This is something that now everyone and their mom is jumping on with account based marketing or account based selling, which is basically when the sales and marketing team work together to go after strategic accounts, specific accounts. So for instance, I might say that I go after. If it's dentists, let's just throw a random example out there. I don't sell to dentists, but there's to say, if I sold to dentist, I would say, what are the ideal dentists that I go after? Well, is it going to be a dentist or is it going to be a orthodontist? Well, let's say specifically the dentist. A dental practice that's making about 3 million or more per year. Those are the type that I want to go after. So I know who they are. I know their income level. I may know this number of employees. I may also look at the challenges. What are the top five challenges facing dentists? And I could find this out maybe from studying literature in the industry. Or if I can find one of the ideal customers in that maybe I don't have a customer yet. Or if you do have a customer, if you're working, you're a career sales rep, you work in an industry, interview one of your current customers, find someone that you can sit down, you can talk to and just interview and learn some of the challenges that they have. Offer them free lunch, go into the practice and take some time to just learn from the foot soldiers or the practice manager what are some of the main difficulties they're facing in that industry. If it's someone else, it's another client. Do the similar thing. Or if you don't have any clients right now, you're an entrepreneur, you're stuck and you're starting off. Find someone that you can interview an ideal customer that you want to go after and take some time, give them value and then learn from them. You might be able to learn those key challenges that they have. Now that I have those key challenges and I've done my research, I understand those three challenges, it's going to be the same challenges across the board with all of those companies. So if I found a dream list of 100 dentists throughout the southeastern part of the United States that are making $3 million or more, their challenges are pretty much going to be the same if one of them have those challenges. So I know the top five challenges. What I will do then is start creating a series of questions. You might ask the, you know, the Toyota five whys. So now that I have those five main issues, I might ask Toyota's five whys and say, why is this a problem? And then why is this a problem? Why is this a problem? Why is this a problem? And now that I know some of those answers, I might, you know, this is stuff that I'm doing on my own practice. I can then utilize that on the conversation as I call into the prospect. I can then take those five whys and frame them into questions that could be thought provoking questions for my ideal customer. And that usually may lead to an opportunity. If I can share with them something they do not know already, it may lead to an opportunity to get an appointment. And that's what I want. Whenever I call into a prospect for the first time and try to get into, you know, communication with them, my goal is to get to the point where I can get an appointment. And once I get that appointment, I can have that greater discussion with them and to help them to recognize value. And then as A natural byproduct from that. I typically see great results with them converting into bigger deals and more opportunities for my business. Am I making sense with that, Kwame?

Absolutely. I'm here writing down feverishly everything that you're saying. This is really good stuff. And you know what? I'm going to make a freebie, essentially just based on this outline that you've given us. So if you go to americannegotiationinstitute.com sales, you can get this freebie. Have I made this freebie yet? Nope. I'm making this up based entirely on what you say in this podcast. So this is, this is really great information. I'm going to, I'm definitely going to use this myself. Wow. So do you typically use this kind of systemic approach when you're working with your clients to help them with their sales processes and your personal sales process?

Dude, yes. If you come into my office right now, whiteboards, whiteboards all around. If it's not whiteboards, it's a white flip pads that you write on whatever you call flip charts. I write on those as well. I have them sticky on the wall. I love it because I love processes. If you can identify process, you can. If you look in nature. Sorry to get all, you know, tree hugger here and stuff, but if you look at nature, nature has cycles or has patterns. We have typically four season in Florida. We have one season and it's hot in Michigan. When I lived there, there's two. There was construction and winter.

You know, but.

But everywhere there's a pattern right there. These cycles, there's these things that come around that you can watch, you know, birds and life cycle or anything. So if nature has this, if there's natural laws with this, if there's natural laws within a solar system and you within the galaxies, you know, the cosmos, you see these things, then why not have those same things that apply to our businesses? What are some of the patterns or processes that we can implement? If you can have a pattern or process for everything in your business, I'm telling you, you're going to save yourself some headaches and you're going to see amazing results. Successful things come from patterns. You're going to see that horrible things come also from patterns. Patterns that are not identified or not understood, you know, for mankind. We know when there's in Florida, we know when there's a hurricane because we follow certain patterns and we prepare for that. If we did not, then we'll be screwed. Especially in south Florida. The same thing applies with our business and with our prospecting. So it's my clients, I sit down with them because you can't wing it and be successful. If you're winging it and being successful, you're just like, it's like getting, you know, getting winning a lottery, it's just like a look. And I don't believe in luck selling. I believe in very systematic approach selling. I believe that when we put processes in place, we can see results. And this is why I say anyone can sell. Because I discovered this. It's not like it was something that I can't. I didn't discover the science behind it, I just saw it. I'm just like, duh. If anyone can do these several things, bro, they can sell and they can make money. And I'm no genius or Einstein. I've been able to make some money in sales, pretty decent money. And it came not because of my, you know, by just my MIT studies, which I didn't go to mit. It's just because I recognize simple patterns that I'm able to follow and to. I was able to learn from my sales trainers and that helped me to become successful in selling. So definitely with my clients, definitely in my own industry and my own business, I follow processes.

This is so cool. And this is a lot of what I'm trying to do with negotiation. And then now when we shift from gathering this information, let's say we have these conversations, we start to build that relationship and we are learning more about what they want and need and their vision for the future. When we move into the next thing, we're going to talk about approaching it from the authoritative power position. What do you mean by that?

Throughout the entire process with our clients, I mean, we need to be standing shoulder to shoulder with them and it's not enough to get there. And you know, because we've seen the solution, we're running to the very end of the marathon and saying, hey, you know, we're all the way over here. When you make it over here, customer, you know, we'll be here waiting for you. Here's a proposal, we'll see you at the end. That's, I mean, number one. Okay? I have a big pet peeve. Especially if you're a person that is trying to sell a high value service, you do not send your proposal via email. Okay? We don't propose to our spouses via email. Hey baby, want to get hitched? Send, right? So the end of the day, if we're going ahead and we're sending our proposals via email, this is the Most important meeting that you could ever have with a client. And yet somehow we have relegated the most important moment that we could ever have with a client to the lowest form of communication, which is email. I mean, you send somebody an email and a proposal, where's the first place they go? To the pricing page. There's like, okay, well, I understand this journey that we've gone on and I'm just going to go right to the price. The person's opening up the proposal email and she's checking out the JPEG of the ring. I'm like, wow, I don't know if it's really that big. I don't know if I should say yes or not.

Right?

I mean, this isn't what it's about. And yet it's not that when we get to the proposal stage that we need to take this power position, but rather, I mean, the difference between assertiveness, right. Just taking ownership versus control. I mean, it's a very finite, very nuanced. We still want this to be a collaborative process. We still want to be able to go with our client and be like, this is where you are going to be and this is how bad life will suck if nothing changes. This is where you said you want to be and this is what the difference is going to be and this is what it's going to look like working with us together. And here's the timeline. This is when we want to be finished. This is what's going to happen after we're no longer working together. These were the projects that you have on the go and all the reasons why that need to be finished. Which through the magic of sales means that we need to be starting this project today or within two weeks of today, because then everything else falls behind. So it's so important. But it's not that we're ever taking control, it's just that we're helping to guide, we're being a tour guide on this conversation with our client versus somebody that's at the very end.

Right? I like this. I really like this. And I think one of the things that people struggled with with sales is the perception from the outside looking in that in order to be successful in sales, you have to use these high pressure techniques where you're almost forcing or bullying or annoying people into these deals. But what you're saying, it's a softer process.

Oh, it's. I mean, it's so much more intentional when we do it this way. Right. I was trained in the boiler room esque type of sales, right. The Wolf of Wall street and everything else where it was like, here's your desk. Here's your ph. Like, go call people and do whatever it takes to make the deal done. And I remember sitting across from boardroom tables knowing that this was like the closing meeting with a client. I would have my paperwork and I'd have the pen, and it would sit there on the desk, and I'd be like, okay, what do we need to do to make this happen today? And you would the first one to blink. Loss. You did not leave these rooms until these deals were signed, sealed, and delivered. And yet I would come back and, yeah, it was always really exciting to get the deal. But what was even more exciting was when somebody would shake your hand and be like, you know what? Thank you. Like, thank you for doing this with us. Like, thank you so much for all the time you took to really understand us. And that was when I realized that it wasn't about the deal. It was about the relationship. And when we look at it like this and we ask ourselves, okay, what else do I need to find out about the client? You know, how else can I help them beyond what we're talking? Like, what do they get? Even after we're no longer, you know, in this active pursuit of this project or this classroom or whatever it is that you're doing, whether that's a finite period of time or maybe a long, longer period of time. But there's this process where you are working directly with the client, and then, you know, you'll have something else. What does the client get after you're done? The sale. And you can't articulate that before you get to the proposal. You haven't even done yourself a service, nor the client. And I mean, this goes into, you know, when we get to return our investment and everything else. But, I mean, this is up to you to ask the questions and find out the truth from your client and not be the bearer of all news and tell your client exactly what they need to. Because anything you tell anyone is up for skepticism, right? Well, that happens under those particular conditions, under that particular economic status, when those companies are that big. But I'm unique and I'm different, and that's not me. Whereas when we turn it around and we ask our clients for their truth and they tell us, we arm ourselves with so much more information that ultimately we can help them, and they know the value of this relationship going forward.

I love this. So now we've understood, we've developed a deeper understanding of the difference between sales and negotiation. And now we've come up with this really great approach to dealing with questions and potential objections. And now it is time to close the deal. And you talked about the higher authority close. So for the listeners that don't know what that is, can you help them understand a little bit about what that means and what it looks like?

So this is. And this is interesting. If I look back on my experience as a kid being trapped at a new car dealership for, like, multiple hours on a Sunday, it was always a Sunday afternoon. It was like, every two years. You know, it's classic in the car business. It's classic in a lot of sales organizations. And I think there's just like anything, there's a way to use it for good and then also for negative side. But the higher authority close is about, okay, there's somebody else who's the decision maker, and there's somebody else involved, right? Like, if it's negotiation, let's think of that, you know, because most people have this experience in buying cars or something like that, where it's like, okay, well, they want this much. You only want to pay that much. Okay, They've got to go talk to their manager to see what can be done, right? And then there's this negotiating back and forth. As a salesperson, it's really important in some aspects of the conversation to have that higher authority who's the one setting the rules. Because you always. And I will say always. This is pretty much an always. You always want your prospect that you're dealing with to see you as somebody who's on their side. It's not me versus you. Right, Kwame? You're trying to buy something. I'm trying to sell you something. You have problem X, I have solution X. Like, this is a perfect fit. It's not me versus you, because, again, this goes into the. If you're. Or if you end up down a rabbit hole of negotiating with your prospects, I feel like you've done something incorrectly in the process somewhere, because they feel like it's a negotiation. Again, you don't negotiate with your doctor unless you feel like it's you versus your doctor. Right? You feel like they're telling you something you don't want to hear, and you don't trust them, then you will battle your doctor, and you won't do it. In sales, it's the same thing. You want your prospects to feel like it's you and them versus their problem versus their situation versus their goals versus the world. It's you. And. And so when you are the decision maker. When somebody says, well, you know, I know you want to charge 5,000 for this, but will you do it for 4,000? And you're like, can you do 4,500? Now it's me versus you. It's instantly me versus you because it's me versus you. Now if I say, well, that's an interesting request, you know, let me check with my manager and let me see what I can do. Now it's me and you against the manager or against the world or whatever. And so it's always important to do that is to have somebody else who is the decision maker and, or bring them into the conversation so that you're always the advocate for your prospect. And again, you could be selling TVs, you could be helping someone buy a house. You always want to be the advocate. That's literally either arm and arm with your prospect arm over their shoulder. Sometimes you have to pick them up and carry them across the finish line because they just won't make the smart decisions without you. Just, just, you know, using a lot of persuasion and willpower depending on what you're selling. But it really should always feel like you and them.

Well, great. Well, let's move on to the issue of budget because I know that's where a lot of people wanted to focus their the time here. So where should we start when it comes to budget?

Yeah. So I mean I, I'm a huge believer that we need to have a financial conversation early on in the conversation, in the conversation with a client and when we're going through our entire Kayo sales, you sales process, I mean your very first face to face, voice to voice, Skype or Zoom meeting with a client does focus on this lead qualification area, which is budget. Now where unfortunately too many people focus on is they start off the conversation by asking, well, how much do you have to spend on this project or how much do you think this is going to be worth? And this is a terrible question. Like we were trained to do this in sales. When I worked for Xerox, it was a requirement that you had to ask the client how much do they have for a budget for this? Now here's the reality is I could ask anybody about how much they have to spend on anything and I will get the exact same answer. I have nothing. Right. There's no budget. Right. Or whatever the number is, they're going to throw it out so low that you're like, okay, now I got to like pigeonhole a solution to what exactly they've told me. I mean People, unless. Unless this person is so well prepared, your client is so well prepared that they have started to like sock away money into a savings account to know how much they're going to spend on that. This. Honestly, they don't have an idea. They have no complete idea. And one of my favorite quotes to go when I'm doing presentations on this is a budget will tell you what you can't afford, but it won't stop you from buying it. And so just by understanding what somebody's budget is doesn't prevent somebody from buying it, even when their budget is zero. So we do want to have a financially driven conversation, because financially driven conversations are awkward. And the faster we can get over the awkwardness, the more open and honest and transparent we can have as a conversation with our clients. But it's not about asking them, how much do you have to spend? How much are you willing to bleed into this project? How much are you willing to give up for this? Right. This isn't what this is about. But going back to the idea of goal oriented, aspirational, much bigger than anything else, is what will you be able to do? Or how much will your company grow when this project is working? When we get people to start talking about the financial growth of their organization? Well, I'm going to be more profitable. I'm going to be able to attract new clients and new geographies. I'm going to be able to grow my business this much more. More. That's number one, it's an easier conversation to have because it's aspirational. But number two, as we continue to go down the path and the client has now articulated how much they could see their company growing, it's much easier for them to justify $40,000 to spend with you when they know they're going to be potentially growing $400,000. Right. It's like, okay, well, this is the entire pie and you just want to take a slice of this piece. Whereas when we ask them how much you have to spend, that is the pie. And we now have to say, okay, give this up and you're going to get something in return. But I still can't articulate what that return on investment is. Whereas when we ask them how much will it grow? Okay, understood that. And if we were a fraction of that, would that make sense? The client should be able to say, yeah, that makes sense. Now they have articulated what their return on investment would be.

That makes a lot of sense. I like that.

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

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