How Childhood Beliefs Shape Financial Behaviors: Joe Ingram's Perspective

The status quo is me in the middle of my friend group. So I'm not the top. I'm not the bottom. I'm in between. Status quo itself is a cognitive bias where you prefer to stick with what you know rather than making a change. Because that would disrupt my status quo. It would disrupt. If I went and made a bunch more money, would my friends still be my friends? Right. And your cognitive bias says, this is what I know to be true, and then it does this. And I don't want to learn anything else. I do not want anyone else's influence to challenge my belief structure on what it is I'm doing. That's how I look at the actual cognitive bias. It's my. My willingness to buy my own stuff but not listen to anybody else's version to see if it's better or if I'm incorrect.

Hey, everyone, it's Kwame Christian, host of Negotiate Anything, asking you to please do not skip forward because this is not a commercial. Okay, I've got something for you. So we want to hear from you, our incredible listeners, because your feedback is super helpful in making the show even better. We've created a quick and fun form to get to know you, and. And this is your chance to make the show even closer to what you love. And here's the best part. If you fill out the form before December 31, 2024, you'll be entered into a raffle to win a signed copy of my book delivered straight to your door. It only takes a few minutes, and your input will help to shape the future of Negotiate Anything. Find the form in the description of this episode, and we'll announce the winner in January. Who knows? It might be you. Thanks for helping us to make the show even better and even more connected to you. Good luck in the raffle. Joe, thanks for joining us today.

Absolutely honored to be here. Thank you for that.

It is our pleasure, my friend. So how about to get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?

Sure. So, Joe Ingram, code name sales genius that I was given. So I am an actual sales trainer, which is different than a coach. A coach helps you with mindset and motivation. The trainer says, here's the things you need to do. And so that's where I go. When you go to the gym, you don't get a coach. When you go to the gym, you get a trainer. And the trainer's job is to get a result for you. And that's what I see myself as. So I'm a sales trainer. Across multiple industries. About 60% of my business comes through automotive. And so I go out and teach automotive retailers how to sell more effectively and how to convert leads. I myself responsible for about $1.7 billion in sales based on companies I've managed and actual personal sales. So to me, this is a game that's fun. It does have to deal with marketing, right? Advertising. You have to go into mindset, attitude, things like that. All of that applies. But. But I want to be the guy who pops in and writes a prescription as opposed to the guy who does all the diagnostic stuff. So brilliant.

Oh, this is exciting. $1.7 billion. I think that is something that gets you the nickname sales genius, so.

Exactly.

I think it is very appropriate. And this is exciting because one of the things we were just chit chatting about is the fact that sales is everywhere and we have an opportunity to use these skills in every facet of our lives. And before we kind of get into the meat of the episode, I think it would be a cool place to start right there, because there are a lot of people who are maybe traditional deal makers and people who are in sales who would instantly appreciate this, but people who might not see themselves as salespeople, who might just see themselves as leaders in a community or in an organization. It might not be readily apparent why this is so valuable to them. So can you give us your best sales pitch on the value of sales?

On the value of sales. There is no business. There is no industry.

There is no.

There is nothing without first a sale, okay? And people go, oh, but I'm not a salesperson. And I go, I completely understand that. But in order for you to get a significant other, there has to be an element of salesmanship, okay? For you to get a job, to interview properly, for you to get a promotion, for you to get your children to do something requires something. Sales skills. Now they innately have it, which means you do too. You just chose to squash that part of you. Why? Because we watched a movie when we were a kid where our parents told us, don't be salesy, don't act like that, things like that, right? We make fun of a lot of industries and people when it comes to sales, and we choose to poke fun at the person who's selling. So inherently our brain goes, no, no, no, Sales is bad. But yet if you saw a movie you like, do you have an issue with running out to your friends and tell them, oh, my goodness, this was the best that's selling, right? You choose not to label it that, but it is in fundamentally, it is sales where you are imposing your Right. Biases, your actual thought process upon another individual. And so you're just looking for agreement. And that's exactly what I believe. To me, I define sales as providing someone with a logical explanation to justify their emotional decision.

We are starting off hot, Joe. This is great. This is great. This provides us with a great segue into one of the core things that we're going to talk about, which is bias. Because really, what you pointed out is that one of the reasons why people don't readily think about sales as something that is integral to every part of their life is because they have a bias against the term sales because there's some kind of negative experience or negative mindset associated with the practice or the profession. And so what we're recognizing is that we're selling every day. It's just a matter of whether or not we're doing it well. And emotions and biases and those type of things are going to play a massive role in this process of selling. And so let's just shift to bias. When we're thinking about bias as it relates to sales, what is bias and what would you say the impact is?

Sure. One of the things I want to point, I want to bring up, because you said it so masterfully. We just said that the fact is, is that we label ourselves and say we're not in sales because there's no money transacting at the end of what we do. Okay. As opposed to sales, is still getting someone to buy into that belief structure. You have buy into what you're sharing with them. Okay. So you say, oh, but I'm not selling anything. You are. You're selling what you want them to agree with you. And so that is the purchase, not the actual exchange of money. And so when you reframe that in your head, and really, that's what everything we're going to talk about is going to be about, is the reframing of it. Right. So I'm going to tease you with, like, status quo, Right? What is status quo? The status quo is me in the middle of my friend group. So I'm not the top, I'm not the bottom. I'm in between. Status quo itself is a cognitive bias where you prefer to stick with what you know rather than making a change, because that would disrupt my status quo. It would disrupt. If I went and made a bunch more money, would my friends still be my friends? Right. And your cognitive bias says, this is what I know to be true. And then it does this, and I don't want to learn anything else. I do not want anyone else's influence to challenge my belief structure on what it is I'm doing. That's how I look at the actual cognitive bias. It's my. My willingness to buy my own stuff but not listen to anybody else's version to see if it's better or if I'm incorrect.

I love this, and especially as it relates to the status quo, because with the way that you painted the picture, it helps us to recognize that, yes, there might be a fear of failure. I'm afraid of changing the status quo when things get worse. But there's also that fear of success. I'm afraid of changing my status quo. Things get better. What does better mean and what are the downstream ramifications of that? Because more money also means more taxes and shifting of your social circle. To a certain extent, sometimes that happens, or organically, we don't know what that means. That can be scary. And so just thinking about it in terms of the biases that might be standing in our way, it helps us to have a more strategic approach to how we can circumvent that barrier. Because a lot of times our strategy is to beat down people with logic and volume. And we wonder why the resistance seems to increase as we make better and better points, right?

And if you stop and look like, let's say you were to become more successful, let's say something happens, your boss goes away, and then you're the biggest boss, comes up and recognizes you and says, that's you. You need to step up. Well, the step up means income. Step up. What happens if the person above you is making double what you are making now? What happened to everything you look at? For one, your bias that you have, your cognitive bias was that guy doesn't earn what he gets. He's not doing enough work, he's not doing this. Now, boom, you become that guy, right? You're in that spot now. Your pay just increased. What's the first expenditure that most people will go out and spend on when they get a promotion or they increase their pay? First they buy food, then they start looking at cars, right? And they're saying, I'm going to bump up my wheel, right? So that I can represent out to somebody that I'm making more money. But ultimately, if you consistently make more, don't you move from where you're at now? Don't you go buy a better house in a better neighborhood than where you were before? Not saying that that was bad, but when you do that. Didn't you just tell everybody where you were, that that was bad, right? And that's where your brain has to fight. Your brain has to fight with those beliefs that were given to you prior to the age of seven, okay? So most of your beliefs, whether it be on money, love, family, all come from prior to the age of 7 years old. And it's the people that you were surrounded with, which is why, as a parent, it's really important to make sure young children are around people that will sculpt their beliefs and ideologies in the right direction. And so you may have cognitive bias that isn't even yours, okay? Because of the fact that, like, for example, I talk to people all the time, and I'm like. They start to say something, then they come back and they look back at me and I'm like, hey, you just looked up into your head, into, you know, memory. Whose voice was that that you just heard telling you to shut up and don't say that in front of Joe, right? And they laugh at me and they go, that was my mom's voice. And I'm like. Just so you know, label that as a cognitive bias because your mother taught you a rule to stop at. Look, look, I don't want you. Kwame. Don't be a showboat. Don't be out there in front of everybody. Don't put your business out in front of other people so that they can shoot you down, right? Don't do that. Don't leave your dishes on the table. Don't do this, right? All of these different things are picking up from you, right? That you were not the one that decided this. They were given to you. So is money the root of all evil? Right? Our salespeople bad? Because, I mean, stop and look like, for example, I'm sporting the goatee with the beard, right? Okay, You've got facial hair. To me, growing up, every villain in a Disney movie had facial hair. How do you know? When the villain was sneaking in to become a good guy, they shaved so no one would recognize them. Because shave, clean cut. People are good people. The people with the extenuated, like my goatee sticking down, right? That's going to go. Watch Aladdin. Jafar has that big long one right here. Every one of those things are a bias thrown at you that becomes programmed. And anytime you choose to deviate from the programming, your brain slaps you back with, remember what we learned. Remember what we learned prior to the age of seven? You don't have the ability yet to separate what you believe is right versus something else. And so that, to me, is what we have to fight most of the time.

Hello, my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question. Have you ever wondered how to elevate your team's negotiation game and how you can help the folks on your team have better, difficult conversations? At the American Negotiation Institute, we offer transformative keynotes and workshops tailored to empower professionals with top tier negotiation and conflict resolution skills. Whether it's a keynote for your next event or hands on training for your team, we've got you covered. Don't just negotiate. Master the art with the American Negotiation Institute. Click the link in the description to find out more. Elevate, negotiate and succeed. This is great. And listeners, what you're seeing here is we're recognizing that communication is very complex because there are over a hundred different listed biases. But there are biases about pretty much everything that probably have no name. So we have to recognize that there are two or more people in this interaction. So we have to recognize and appreciate that the person on the other side has a number of biases that we will never fully understand. And even within ourselves we have a number of biases that we will never fully understand. But through self awareness and emotional intelligence, we can get a better understanding. And Joe, the example that you gave was so powerful. Just recognizing that we hear these voices in our heads, but sometimes we can't distinguish what is a genuine thought based on data and logic and the situation that we've actually analyzed and what is just a biased thought that has been programmed into us from our childhood. And so when we are thinking about breaking through the biases of, well, let's start with ourselves actually breaking through our own personal biases, what would you say are the first steps people can take?

Okay, so remember, the biases you have are not bad, right? They were just taught to you and based on circumstances, you have seen more of them and validated them. Okay, so to me, it's always comes down to the questions you ask yourself. So I like to do this to test all of mine. I play the devil's advocate and say, how would I talk myself out of this situation? So if I sat down in front of me and asked myself my opinion, can I speak to both sides of the argument? And most people aren't willing to do that. And we wrap our identity not in the results, but in the beliefs. And so we sit down and say, look, I only vote a certain way because my parents taught me that's what we were. And so I wear the label. Whichever one it is, doesn't matter. But I also stop and I'll give you an easy one. So when I train automotive dealerships and I deal with people, it's always one of the two in the couple that come in that if a new vehicle comes out, right? And see if you've heard this before, never buy the first year. That's when all the bugs are in it. Always wait, okay, so again, you stop and. But again, is that your belief or was that somebody had shared it with you, You've heard it, you said, oh, that logically makes sense. I choose to believe it. Okay, but yet how do. How is there a company out there called JD Power that awards a company for a brand new model that came out that had so few issues with it, right? And they go and make a big deal about it, but yet we're sitting there going, no, no, wait, wait, wait. I was always told the first time it comes out, let everybody else practice on it, right? But that comes out with every single genre, every single avenue that you look at, you have a hesitation from jumping in first because somebody warned you the first thing is always going to have problems. So then ask yourself, why is it you don't start that business? Why is it you don't go out there and jump out and be the first entrepreneur in your family, right? Because the first one always has all the problem. So again, it's going to go through on so many different levels that we don't give ourselves credit for. So to combat that, I have to re identify myself. But if you can step back and say, right, that no, I bought this car this time, boom, boom, boom. Because I just bought you on the belief system of the first production vehicle is always going to have a problem. And then J.D. power says, look how great this car is. It came out off the assembly line spot on, perfect. The way it goes through those two are conflicting identities. Okay? I'm not asking you to choose one. I'm asking you to stand between and see which one makes the most sense. You don't have to get the first one ordered, right? But again, I have friends. The new Corvette came out, they were placing deposits and ordering those before we even had road and track, telling you what they liked or didn't like about it. Because the answer was, I want it. And that's what I want to do. Because I want to identify myself as a Corvette owner with the newest Corvette compared to the oldest one. That kind of stuff. So again, challenge what you're thinking by building an argument against it and see if you can. Or is it truly just a feeling that someone else gave you because you can't defend yourself? If it's because of somebody else putting it in you, what are you going to do? Come back, Kwame, and go, my mom said, no, you can't have that adult. You can't have an argument as an adult. Come on, now. I can't look at you. Go, no, no, no. My mama said that you were not allowed to say, da, da, da, da. Right. It doesn't work that way as adults. So let's just understand that and see. Can you get past besides what mom and dad talk?

This is so good. And Joe, I don't know how you have this line into my internal voice, but there's so many things that you're saying are registering, and I think that's. That's one of the. The things we have to get used to when it comes to overcoming our own biases. Because it's very uncomfortable. You feel quite exposed. Because when there's something that you believe in and you don't believe in it so much that you can't even explain it, you know, those things that are so obvious that it's. It's hard to explain, then when you challenge yourself to explain it and you realize there's nothing there, there's no true foundation, then it creates almost like a micro identity crisis. But we have to do that. We have to go through that in order to think clearly so we can elevate ourselves and evolve. That's how people get stuck. They start to believe their own biases, and then they don't evolve. And when it comes to now, the other side, now when we're looking into the minds of other people and we recognize that, I'd go ahead and say that the majority of us haven't done that internal work, that introspection, to recognize that our biases are really guiding and steering our lives for the majority of the part of our lives. But also the fact that it's uncomfortable and scary to explore these things. And there might be times where we are having a conversation with somebody in a sales context, and we can say, you know what? I made a point. They rejected it without even hearing the point. It doesn't seem like they're giving true consideration to this, and it seems like they're putting their beliefs or their identity over the results that I'm trying to provide them with here. So how do we handle this conversation and challenge them in a way that doesn't Push them too far in the other direction.

So one of the things I like to use with individuals, especially, let's be real. If I said something that was completely against you or a listener right now, and we were face to face, I could see it. I could see it. Because nobody's good enough at holding their face when they're going, right when they get that mini eye roll. And if you. If you watch the Lie to Me show, you can go learn all about the micro expressions, right? My buddy Brian Galky tells you how to read a face so you can look and see what's there, right? And you'll know how to talk to people. But when you sit and see it, call attention to it. So I call it a feedback loop, right? Only because it's not offensive. If I said that, so I would say, okay, Kwame, what I said just prior to this, I can see that what I meant didn't come across. Well, could you tell me what you heard? Okay. And now I get to hear them. And guess what? We all come from our own biased judgments. So whatever it is, a friend of mine always tells me, he goes, man, the moment you start talking, your beliefs just beat me up. Just hit me in the face. And we tend to do that. We tend to speak from a position of our beliefs. So when you listen to somebody and they start talking, they'll downplay something that you upplayed. They'll downplay it because they disagree with it. So they'll look at you and go, well, no, it's not that important. And you're like, whoa, where did that nasty little tone jump in for? Right? But that's because you said something that you tried to highlight. They think it's a low light. And so as they explain it, they will try to dim whatever you tried to highlight. And so I just want to listen to. I just want to hear it back. And until I can get to where you're at to understand it, right? I got to meet you where you are so that I can then build from there. Because if I can't get to where you're at and communicate back to you what you just said, right? Because I'll feedback loop right back to you and I'll say, okay, so what you're saying is that this part of this. This instance that I'm selling, right? Whatever benefit I chose to say, this is the benefit for the customer, right? So we go, okay, there's a feature and there's a benefit. We always forget the advantage. And that's where we have an issue With. So I go, hey, feature of this gets you X, Y, Z. Okay? But that doesn't put it into perspective for them. So I'll go back to automotive. It's easiest. It comes to my head, right? Analog breaks, right? Helps you prevent an accident. Okay? So the feature is anti lock brakes. The benefit is, keeps you out of an accident. What's the advantage? Right? It keeps you and your family safe in a panic situation. So I say, look, it has anti lock brakes, which in turn will help keep your family safe in the event of a panic braking situation, because the brakes won't lock up and everyone will be remain safe. So when I give you the advantage, the advantage adds illustration to the feature and the benefit. Okay? So would anybody look at me and go, I don't care about my family? No, they can't do that, right? Especially when your mom's the voice in your head. But when you look at that, you're giving them the ability to adapt it to them. And if you paint pictures that include things with open language so that they can drop in themselves, so the picture they build is of them in the scenario. So when I say the anti lock breaks. Anti lock breaks. Do you have any emotional attachment to that? No. Right. And I go, it keeps you from getting an accident. Your brain goes, great, we're not an accident. But I go, but it keeps your family safe. Okay, Kwame, your family looks different than my family, right? And I don't know, ages is. I don't know, you know how many people live in. I don't know how many people are in your car with you, but you do. And because of the language you filled the picture in, everybody listening put it in there. If they didn't have a family, they're going to automatically go, well, I don't have a family, but I have friends. And they'll put their friends in the car. Okay? Are you allowing them to do that? Because that'll change their mindset. Especially if they go, it's not important that I have anti lock brakes. Why? Because dad told me if you learned how to drive right, you never had to worry about a computer telling you how to hit the brakes, right? And so you go, okay, great. But I just made my life easier, gave myself a second set of safety things, right, that are now at my disposal. Because technology has advanced. Technology isn't the greatest of. I know that's your bias. Okay, but if it was thrown in, would you say no to it? Do you want me to cut out the part of the computer in the car that Controls all that. So it doesn't have that. You're okay with that blinking light that just flashes at you because it's missing a part. No, but again, all of these different things. Again, listen to the person. As you listen, you will speak the bias and you will speak it right, because your beliefs come out so loudly I can't hear the words you're using.

There is so much in here, Joe, because first of all, I think so many people have heard feature and benefit and understanding that distinction. But that advantage piece that's often overlooked, and what's so interesting is that even as through this conversation, we've explored some really deep psychological principles like bias, how it applies in different situations and things like that. But the antidote is still pretty. Pretty simple. Simple in terms of understanding it, difficult in terms of application in the heat of the moment. And that's listening, asking deeper questions, being curious and paying attention to not only what the person is saying, but what is not said, body language, tone and those type of things. And then letting that guide our curiosity and get deeper. Because ultimately it's going to be much more difficult for us to persuade if we don't understand the beliefs that are behind the person that are driving these decisions. And sometimes they might not be very forthright in saying what those are, but it's up to us to ask those questions and make the person feel safe enough to give those answers. And then we can pivot and address the concern based on language that they like. Which brings us to using that open language. It's almost like a conversational Rorschach test, like the inkblot tests, where people say, okay, well, this looks like that. Well, that means you have problems or whatever it has to be. Well, in this situation, it's much less difficult.

You know my doctor. That's what you're telling me. You know my doc, I know your mom. You know my doctor.

Okay. Yes, we're making all these connections. It's great because when you use this open language, they'll give. Give you the keys to persuasion. You just need to listen and use the right one.

Right. And I'll throw another one at you too. So I tend to talk really fast, okay. And so I forget to match the speed of the prospect. Okay. And so what? I'll just. I'll just ask you, you straight out, right? What does. Is a fast talker a positive or a negative thing? What's the connotation that we've been taught.

Especially in sales is bad?

It's a bad thing. Right? What's the end of the radio commercial one at this pricey. Do you have details? Right? And you go, great. Everything I just heard was complete, complete fabrication. Okay? Right. Because of that. So if I over talk and I talk too quickly, as opposed to slowing down and matching the individual, okay? So if the customer or the prospect that you're dealing with, and I don't care if it's a family member and you're having a conversation, if they ask you more than twice to repeat yourself, okay, you're talking faster than they can process. Now, what happens if I talk to a fast talker and I'm a slow talker? The only way, right? Because again, you don't look at the prospect and go, whoa, whoa, slow down and match me. That's not how sales works, okay? So you have to actually do what? You have to speed up. Otherwise they look down upon you. Right? Because what is the connotation that we've been taught of someone who speaks so much slower than you are?

The unfortunate connotation is a lack of intelligence.

Hundred percent. And so if you don't want to be perceived that way, right, then you have to match their speed. And the only way you can match their speed is through memorization of your actual scripting of what it is you're going to say. Because if I said, what's your cell number? Right. You can answer me. Don't do that. Because everybody's going to have it, right? But if you said. If I said, what's your cell number? And I go faster, faster, you can speed up with it because it's not anything that requires thought process. So looking at that, I want you to understand, understand your craft. Understand what it is you say about certain things. Understand. And I don't call it a pitch. I call it a presentation, right? Because why? Somebody told us pitch was bad. And some people go, oh, my goodness, you're going to pitch me? Well, yeah, that's actually what it's called. But in the context of it, what can I do for you then? I need to match your speed, I need to match your tonality, and I need to give you the wording back that you're using to me. Okay, so. And I'll. I'll ask you, Kwame, just if something happened that was really, really, really good, you would describe it as, you know, what the most. What happened? What's the word? You would. Amazing. Yeah, my word as well. So I would say amazing. So if you and I have the same word, I don't have to change anything. Okay. But I have a Buddy of mine, Michael, goes, man, let me tell you that this is out of this world, okay? That means zero to me. Zip, nada, I don't care. He goes, let me know it's out of this word. I'm like, aliens, right? And he's like, no. And then he goes to try to tell me what it is that's happening, but it doesn't mean anything to me because that's his word, not my word. And I hear people do this all the time. They talk to prospects and the prospect goes, well, I'm looking for a great deal. And they go, amazing deals is all I do. Okay, well, again, that's not their word. Which word are they more biased to? Theirs, right? So I hear people all the time go, well, I'm looking for a significant discount, okay? And then I just sit there waiting for the salesperson to say, right, if it's me, I go, well, if anyone can afford to provide you with a significant discount, it would be me. And so I used your word, because if I said big discount as opposed to significant, right? And then here's where we get stuck in our overthinking. What does significant mean? I don't know, but it meant enough for them to say it. Does it mean 10% off? Does it mean 30% off? Does it mean they want 90? I don't know. To some people, it's a hundred bucks off of $1,000 product. To some people, they just want you to throw in shoelaces, right? You never know what it is that they're talking about because you have to uncover that. But you need to match them with their language so that you don't step on their bias of that.

The step on their bias accidentally, right? This is so powerful. And again, we can see how this applies in so many different contexts. Within sales, outside of sales, in our personal life, everything. So, Joe, this is just fantastic. I really appreciate you coming on, on the show today and sharing your wisdom with us. And for those of you who want more of Joe, Joe, let me pass the the ball to you and you can let them know about your podcast, your business, and how they can get in touch.

Oh, fantastic. I'm going to tell you, I. I like to define people's biases ahead of time. So I tell you, go to the geniuslinks.com G E N I U S L I n k s so the genius links.com if you go there, there's sample trainings, there's products, there's things there for you to filter yourself out naturally, because it doesn't make sense. And there's also a place to say, schedule a 15 minute call with Joe so you can do that. And then, Kwame, for your listeners, I'm going to tell them this. Let's go one step forward and bring some value. Go all the way to the bottom. It's hidden. You can't see it unless you know to go look for it like on the show. Scroll all the way to the bottom and there's a little button down there. All I tell people is it's a black page with black writing. So if you roll your mouse to the bottom, there's a secret page. If you click on that, it'll take you to a secret page. On my website. You'll find ebooks, you'll find video trainings, you'll find sample presentations I've done. You'll find forms that will help you, like learning assessment forms that I do every time I go in for a training. So I know if I'm dealing with the majority of visual, auditory or kinesthetic people and I can teach them how they learn so that they have to pay attention in their own style. Right. And go through. So I would say go check that out. That would be my best way to.

Help amazing and listeners. We will have a link to everything that Joe just said in the description of the podcast. Joe, thank you so much for coming on the show. Really appreciate, appreciate it.

My absolute honor. I appreciate you opening up the doors to me.

Congratulations. You've just joined an elite club by listening to a full episode. You're now officially on the Negotiate Anything team. So welcome aboard. What most team members do is they subscribe to the podcast because that allows them to automatically get the latest episodes of the show. The best things in life lie on the other side of the difficult conversations. Keep learning, keep practicing and keep getting better. Your relationships will improve, your career will soar, and you'll have the confidence you need to get the most out of these crucial conversations. Again, thank you for joining the team. We're excited to have you and I will see you in the next episode. I'll catch you later.