How Ego, Authority, and Empathy Shape Negotiation Success with Derek Gaunt

Hello my fellow negotiators.

Did you know I once had a.

Listener share that after listening to our podcast, she was able to negotiate a $53,000 raise. And you know what I told her? Where is my commission? Just kidding. But the real story is this was after years of being too afraid to negotiate. But after listening to a couple of episodes on Salary Negotiation, she felt equipped with with the confidence and tools to ask for the payment she deserved. And that, my friends, is the power of negotiation. And through a subscription to our new membership community Negotiate Anything Premium, we're taking that power to the next level. With customized playlists based on our most popular topics, you'll be able to find the episodes you're looking for much faster and much easier. A tool that comes in handy as you're getting ready to prepare for an important negotiation. Even I find myself asking which episode should I listen to before heading into a high stakes negotiation? And you might be saying, but Kwame, you're the ones having the conversations. But I forget. So I listen to the episodes multiple times. Okay, now here's the thing about Negotiate Anything Premium. It'll allow you to dive deeper into the specific situations you're facing, whether it's a salary negotiation, an important business meeting, or an emotional conversation with a loved one. Bonus for you. In addition to ad free and extended episodes, Premium members will have exclusive access to solo episodes and insights from yours truly. And as you know, it will be very dry and very boring. Because I have no sense of humor and this is something that you all have been asking for. I'll also be offering personalized answers to some of your most burning questions through our Ask Me Anything feature. If you've been enjoying our traditional feedback, imagine the value a premium subscription can offer. I've felt the benefit of negotiation firsthand and it is life changing. Many of you don't know this, but my journey has taken me from people pleaser to a confident negotiator. Because I was able to do two simple things through negotiation. I was able to first change my mindset and then I was able to improve my skill set. And that is what will happen for you when you join Premium. I've already seen the impact of these skills and the power of this model not only in my own life, but also in the lives and careers of our clients all around the world. My family, my friends, and our team here at A&I, and I am confident that it can do the same for you. Now, are you ready to negotiate more of the best things in life? Check the link in the show notes to learn more. I'm excited to continue the conversation. I'll catch you later.

Derek, thanks for joining us today.

Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be invited. Thank you.

Yeah, it's a pleasure to have you. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

I am a negotiations trainer and consultant for the Black Swan Group, which is a strategic business advisory firm whose focus is teaching hostage negotiations practices and principles to people in the corporate world. I've been with them, started with them part time in 2010, and upon my retirement from law enforcement in 2017, I started working full time, training, going around the country training and doing coaching calls where clients are calling in because they either A want strategy development or B, they want skill enhancement. And so we'll spend an hour or so on the phone. Chris Voss, author of Never Split the Difference, is the CEO and founder of the Black Swan Group. He and I became best friends after he arrived in the Washington, D.C. area back in 2000, 2001, somewhere thereabouts. I got into negotiations back in 97 when I was still with the Alexandria Police Department. So I started my career in 88, became a negotiator in 97, got promoted to sergeant, became a team leader in 2001, team commander in 2004 after I reached the rank of lieutenant. And that spot I held up until I actually walked out of the door. So it's been a part of my life. Crisis, communications, hostage negotiation has been a part of my life for well over 20 years now.

That's fantastic. And yes, Chris was one of our favorite interviews and author of Never Split the Difference. And before we get into it, I want to give you an opportunity to tell the audience about your new book, which is very, very exciting.

Yeah, Ego, Authority, Failure, available to you in a softback on Amazon. I wrote the book primarily because there's a lack of how to insofar as leadership books are concerned these days. And it occurred to me that if managers, bosses, leaders would treat their peers and their downliners with the same level of deference and subordination that we treat hostage takers, they will create a more collaborative environment, more morale will be higher, and the performance of the team will increase. And it's all about how you talk to people, not so much what you say, but how you say it and what frame of reference you are operating from when you engage someone specifically in a difficult conversation. So Ego Authority of Failure is a great standalone, but it also supplements Never Split the difference quite well, if I do say so myself. It's a great addition to our library.

Fantastic. Yes. And so listeners, make sure you check that book out available on Amazon. So let's talk about these, these three issues that we're going to discuss today. The first one is how ego gets in the way during negotiations. The second one is how to use labels in negotiating. And the last one is how to use tactical empathy in negotiations. So ego. I'm very, very excited to hear about this one. Where should we start? There.

Ego. The ego's impact on the negotiations process is detrimental because ego is tied to your self image. It's tied to how you believe people perceive you and in reality how they actually perceive you. And it's tantamount to an emotion. And emotions we know cloud judgment, it clouds decision making and by extension it has a negative impact on, on behavior. So ego is viewed from our perspective as one of the many emotions that must be dealt with when you are engaged in a difficult conversation. Take negotiation out of the lexicon and just insert difficult conversation because in essence, that's what a negotiation is, a difficult conversation. And in those difficult conversations, oftentimes each side is feeling a certain level of threat, a certain level of danger, a certain level of risk. And those who are ego inclined tend to push harder, tend to talk louder, tend to demand more, which is a recipe for disaster if you're trying to come to a collaborative agreement. And so my advice to all of the clients that call in and the first thing they have to do is control themselves, control yourself, and then begin to control the circumstances. Because if you can't control yourself, going to become part of the problem. And that's taught to clients who are calling in for coaching advice. And that's taught to first time hostage negotiators. Get your emotions under control first and then deal with the emotions on the other side.

I think that's brilliant. And when it comes to managing your own emotions, it's easier said than done. So what are some of those tools or suggestions that you have in mind for your readers when it comes to, to managing their own emotions?

First of all, recognize the environment and the circumstance. What are you going into? You're going into a difficult conversation, which means you're probably going to share information with the other side that they're not going to want to hear. And so the first step is to anticipate that and brace for it. Know that in any difficult conversation, at some point during the conversation you're going to be attacked. And how do you respond to that attack, most of us respond either by attacking back or running. It's the old fight or flight. And when I say running, I'm not saying physically getting up and running, but they do things like compromise their position. Somebody starts yelling at them and says, take this out of the contract or we're going to walk. And it makes people uncomfortable. And when we are uncomfortable, what do we want to do more than anything else as human beings? We want to get comfortable again. What's the fastest way in a difficult negotiation to get comfortable again? Compromise. Take the clause out of the contract, cut a percentage, drop the price, whatever the case may be. And assertive, aggressive negotiators know this. That's why they yell. That's why they use it as a manipulative tool, because they know that for most, it's going to cause an emotional reaction. And reactions that are born out of emotions are usually the wrong move. Exactly. So the mantra is, know that it's coming. Brace yourself for it. Prepare yourself with labels so that you can label the emotions that are coming from the other side and diffuse it and return that person to a normal, functioning level.

I love this. This is a really great point. And when it comes to negotiating, one of the things that I've always kept in mind is never trade substance for emotions. And so when people are highly emotional, like you said, they're very aggressive, and they're using the. That emotion to create pressure inside of you. And then they're, they're. They're banking on you making a mistake where they say, all right, okay, I'm feeling this emotion. I will give up this substantive thing to the other party in order to alleviate that emotional pressure that's inside of me. That's the trade that's happening. And whenever you find yourself in that position, it's, it's, it's difficult. And I really love what you said about the expectations and managing your expectations going into the conversation, because a lot of times I think our ego makes us believe that we are so right and the things that we are going to say are so profound that they will have no choice but to capitulate under our greatness. And then when it doesn't happen and they fight back, then we're shocked.

Yeah, and you're totally throwing off your game. You're totally. Because here's the problem with, with logic. None of us are logical as human beings. We do not make decisions without an emotional component attached to them. And so if I tell you that I'm logical and you say, no, wait a minute, Derek, I'm logical and our logic doesn't line up. Somebody's thinking is faulty, Right? So it's very difficult to hang your hat on a logical argument because most of us aren't operating from a position of logic, especially when we get into a difficult conversation. But by and large, most people prepare for negotiation thinking about what am I going to say as opposed to what am I going to be listening for?

I love that. I love that. One of the things that I've noticed with ego is that oftentimes when we allow our ego to guide what we say, the things that we want to say are meant to either lift us up or at the same time put other people down. And oftentimes when you filter what you say through what is the persuasive purpose of this? What is my goal? And then you analyze it, it'll be really surprising to you to recognize how much of what you want to say is simply as a result of ego, because you want to look better than the other.

I've got a quick story for you. So I was at this keynote and I talked to a listener and he said, kwame, I love the podcast, but my favorite part, man, I love those commercials. And I said, I don't think this is a true story. And now let me tell you about Negotiate Anything Premium, where you can listen to your favorite Negotiate Anything episodes ad free. With a subscription to Premium, you can get access to more insights from your favorite favorite experts and ad free listening and extended episodes. Bonus, you'll also get access to exclusive episodes and personalized advice from yours truly. If you've been looking for an easy and affordable way to level up your skills and negotiate more of the best things in life, join our Premium community. Now for that gentleman in that fictional story, this ads for you. And for the rest of you, I'll see you in Premium.

Right? Because when we get promoted, we think that by virtue of our station within the organization that we're supposed to be know all, see all, infallible, and at the end of the day, this is going to get done because I said so. And one of the problems that most organizations have is that those are the people that get promoted rapidly within the ranks. And the downliners see that and we start to cultivate a culture and an attitude where they think that that is what it takes to get to the top of the mountain. And all of a sudden we're breeding leaders after leader after leader, generations of leaders that are coming up with the same toxicity and heavy handed management style that is just it's counterproductive to the effective operations within the organizations. You know, there's been study after study done that people are not bailing out on jobs because they hate the job. They're bailing out on jobs because they hate the leader. And so ego and authority are not inherently bad. You need some of that. You know, when the enemy, as George Reed, Colonel George Reed, told me, when the, when the enemy is inside the wire and you're passing out the last rounds of ammunition, ego and authority better be front and center because of the urgency. But most of us are not making urgent decisions 90% of our day. And so my point is, we have time to sit back and really understand the perspective of whoever you're delivering the message to. Yes, you're going to have to cut costs. Yes, they're not going to get the raise that they thought that they were going to get at the end of the performance year. Yes, they're going to have to relinquish these perks that have been in place for years. Yes, you're going to have to convey that message. But it's not in what you say, it's how you say it and how it's going to impact the other side. And the sooner that leaders understand the importance of viewing the lay of the land as their direct reports or their peers see it, the better off we're going to be. Because ego tells you, I'm just going to go in there, say it, and get it done. Want to go in, state my goal and objective, and get it done. And for us, with the Black Swan method, it's all about sequencing. Tactical empathy first. Yes. So it's tactical empathy first, and then your goal and objective you'll spend. You got to deliver bad news to some team members first. 80% of the conversation shouldn't even be about the goal or the objective. It should be about them. That's Hostage Negotiation 101. Forget about your goal and objective and understand the frame of reference of whomever you're dealing with. But in leadership, in negotiations, we hear stories all the time where people want to run into the room and throw all of their goals and objectives and supporting data, all of their logic on the table and say, here, Kwame, this is why you should do X. And then you get pushback from the other side and you're trying to figure out, where is it coming from. It's coming from the perspective of the person who, who feel slighted because you haven't taken the time to demonstrate that you know what they're going through how this is going to impact them, et cetera.

Right. Man, I love this, especially when it comes to understanding the perspectives of the other side. That can be difficult, especially when you have a different perspective. And when you're listening and you hear something that is counter to the way that you see it, the natural response, again, is a version of the fight or flight. You. You fight back. Well, actually, on that point, blah, blah, blah. But at this point, what we're doing, again, utilizing the tactical empathy at the beginning of the conversation, it's not about countering what they're saying at this moment. It's about seeing things the way that they see it. And one of the things that helps me is I think of it like a story. Some stories are fiction and some stories are nonfiction. And regardless of how I feel about their perception, I. I am going to eagerly listen to their story just so I can see the situation through their eyes.

That's right. And when you engage in these conversations, you're making yourself smarter. When we engage in this type of dialogue with someone, we're learning things. There are things. When you're dealing with a counterpart, there are things that are going on with them. I don't care how much due diligence you've done. I don't care how much research you've done, but there are things that are going on with them that you will not find in the public space. There are things going on with them that you will only find out if you engage them in dialogue. And the beautiful thing about it is that everything that you need to know to move the needle with the other side, they're going to tell you if you're willing to listen.

I love it. Now, I know we mentioned labeling a few times, but I want you to tell the audience a little bit about that and what the benefits are of labeling.

All right? So labeling comes from emotion labeling, which is a part of the active listening skill set developed in the 1950s by Carl Rogers for use in psychotherapy, stolen by law enforcement for our use in, like, the mid-80s or so, and it has seen increased use in the business world since the mid 2000s. Labeling is a derivation of emotion labeling. At Black Swan, we dropped emotion off of the labeling because in the business context, you're going to be labeling more than just emotion. You're going to be labeling circumstance or dynamics or driving forces. And it's important because it's the easiest and fastest way to begin to develop rapport. Simply telling your counterpart, it looks like it seems like it sounds like. Or you look, you seem. You sound great. Way to start. Very effective throughout the course of the discussion. In fact, the proper use of labels will minimize your need to ask direct questions.

Tell me more about that.

So you tell me that I don't like traveling to Chicago in the winter. Now, the natural question that people will think of is, why not? Or what about traveling to Chicago in the winter gives you such pause? But I can label it and encourage you to give me more information and it'll sound just like a question. I could say, sounds like you hate cold weather.

Yes, that makes sense.

Or I could do what we call a mislabel and label something that I know not to be true to get you to correct me and give me more information. Same example. I could say it sounds like you like. Sounds like you like cold weather. I know that based on what you just said, I know that's not true. But it's going to encourage you, number one, to correct me, because that's what we love to do as human beings, correct somebody, show them how brilliant we are. So it's going to provide you an opportunity to correct me, stroking your ego and provide you an opportunity with giving me more information about the state.

That's brilliant. Yeah. The mislabeling people is an underutilized and overlooked tactic, but it's so powerful because it makes the other side feel as though they're finally in control. Oh, okay, I get to correct somebody. Because if you look back, okay, over the course of our lifetime, in our childhood, it's the parent who corrects the child, it's the teacher who corrects the student. And so now it follows that same pattern. Now it's me correcting you. So now I feel more powerful. And when I feel more powerful, I feel safer. And when I feel safer, I'm willing to share a lot more information.

And chemically, in the brain, you feel better. Chemically in the brain, I'm moving you ever so subtly towards that positive frame of mind. And your brain works 31% better when you're in a positive frame of mind. And so when I'm conveying a difficult message, whether it's in a negotiation or in dealing with something inside the workspace, I know that if I get you in a positive frame of mind, your brain is going to work that much better. You're going to be able to see logic sooner than if you are in a negative frame of mind. That's why we support getting out in front of the negatives. Early in the conversation, we do these preemptive labels that we Call accusations audits. And those are us attacking the negative opinions, assumptions and impressions that the other side probably has about us or the circumstances that brings us together.

Oh, that's fascinating. Okay, tell us more about that. How does that work?

The accusations audit is our probing, if you will, the mind of the other side before we even get to the table. For example, you answered a Craigslist post and I'm selling a motorcycle and you agree to meet me on a Saturday afternoon. I'm going to pull the bike out. I already have negative opinions, assumptions and impressions about you and I know that you have them about me because we're dealing with money and if nothing else, greed is going to pop its rear its ugly head in your mind about me selling the motorcycle for price that I'm asking. So to preempt that before we even get started, I know this is me telling you. I know you probably think that this bike isn't going to be worth as much as I'm asking. You probably think that I'm running a number on you. You may be even think, you may be even thinking that I'm trying to take advantage of it. And you're probably asking yourself, is this a big waste of time? Those may be true or not, but the fact that I hit them early, I take permission and authority away from you for using those in the conversation as we proceed. Does that make sense?

Oh my gosh, it makes so much sense.

That's brilliant.

That's absolutely brilliant. It reminds me of a lawyer technique called drawing the sting, where you get to the jury first, where you say, listen, the prosecution is going to tell you X, Y and Z. But I want to, you know, I want to get rid of those off the bat.

So.

So you would start these conversations like that.

Even after starting the conversation like that, we never justify what we just said. So drawing this thing in lawyer's terms, you're gonna stand up and say, the prosecution is gonna lay out for you a case X, Y and Z against my client. But I'm here to tell you why that's not the case. We don't justify it. I don't say you're going to think I'm being greedy because you think I'm running a numbers game on you and or you think that I'm trying to take advantage of you. But we never say but and or because we just shut our mouth, throw the accusations audit and we shut up. I'm not looking for confirmation. I'm not looking for a refutation, if you will, of what I just said. I'm throwing it out there just to be sure that I clean out all of those negatives before we get into our discussion. So we never justify it.

That's brilliant.

I tell the clients all the time, anytime you feel yourself wanting to say but and or because, stop and just let silence fill the room.

What's really interesting, especially when you put this side by side next to the drawing the sting technique, is that with lawyers, we're drawing the sting where there is going to be a sting, but I am going to calibrate the amount it's going to hurt. But with this situation, the beauty of this technique that you've demonstrated here is that you're essentially removing the sting. You just say there's a sting, but it doesn't hurt. You don't talk about, you don't give them justifications for why they should or should not believe those things. You just put it on the table so it's out there.

Exactly. Exactly. Because justification is in the mind and because I have data information that supports why I'm not doing that, it doesn't mitigate it. The fact of the matter, it's there. And all the logic in the world doesn't really matter at that point.

Right.

Will your logic come in later? Yeah, of course it will, but not at the beginning.

So playing devil's advocate here, if, let's say hypothetically they didn't have those concerns about you, maybe they thought you were being honest.

Could you.

Do you possibly run the risk of bringing up something potentially about yourself during this situation where, oh, I wasn't thinking about that, but now I am.

Ah, see, that's the lawyer and you talking. You're not going to introduce a negative that's not there. Ignoring it will guarantee that it stays. You will not produce one if it is not there. It's the equivalent of if somebody is in my old world, if somebody was exhibiting suicide ideation, but we really don't know if there's a means to actually complete it. If I'm engaging this person in conversation, I'm going to ask them directly, are you thinking about killing yourself? The people who are really thinking about killing themselves will tell you, yes, I am. And then there are follow on questions that I would ask if I got that response. But you're not going to put that out there and have the person say to you, I wasn't thinking about killing myself. But now that you bring it up, I think that's a good option for me. I'll see you up on the roof.

That's a Good point.

So you're not going to introduce. And remember, it's, it's all in. In the verbiage. We're saying probably, may or might. I'm not saying that it's a fact. I'm saying you probably, you may or you might. Now, the response that you, you'll get if you hit it on the head and it's important to them, they're going to tell you you nailed it. If. But oftentimes you'll see them as you're going through your accusations audits. You'll see them shaking their head, as in, as if to say, no. We've even had people stop the clients and say, hey, you know, you relax, you're being too hard on yourself. But using the preemptive labels, AKA the accusations audits is the first empathetic stepping stone as you march towards your case in chief, towards your ask, towards your goal and objective. I love it.

That's brilliant. That is brilliant. I feel like we could have a whole episode on that. So I'm holding back because I want to make sure we get to number three. And that is how to use tactical empathy in negotiations. So where do we start?

There's. Well, we've already started by talking about the accusations audits. Tactical empathy, it's more closely related to cognitive empathy than it is emotional empathy. Emotional empathy is a subjective state brought on by emotional contagion. Tactical empathy is the deliberate recognition and articulation of another's perspective. You are purposely trying to see the environment, the circumstances, as they do. You know, emotional empathy, people say, you need to walk in another man's shoes. Tactical empathy means you need to see through another man's eyes. And it's, it's deliberate. You're doing it on purpose. The best purveyors of tactical empathy on the planet are hostage negotiators and psychopaths, because we both understand its power and its impact, and it is our attempt to remove ourselves as a threat in the conversation. It's. If you are viewed as a threat, there are negative connotations that go along with that. The amygdala fires up. It sends out a cloud into the brain that blocks your ability to process information. It makes you less cognitively nimble as long as you're viewed as a threat. So tactical empathy removes us as a threat. That's where meaningful dialogue can take place, is when they're not viewing me or the circumstance as a threat. So it starts right off the bat with the accusations audit. First things out of my mouth are accusations audits to demonstrate for them. You're sitting in front of a guy right now who is trying to understand exactly what it is that you're going through. And then tactical empathy leads to rapport, rapport leads to trust based influence, and then trust based influence leads to a change in their behavior.

That's brilliant. I love it. So with regard to tactical empathy during negotiations, again, this is a situation where we are making sure that we are removing those psychological and emotional barriers up front so we can then eventually get to that part of the conversation where we're speaking logically, trading proposals and giving arguments, right?

Yes, Correct. Correct. And you know, people hear tactical empathy and they think that I'm telling them to go into the boardroom or I'm telling them to engage their subordinates and get run over and get bowled over, get pushed around. And that's not the case. Tactical empathy is a precursor to your assertiveness. At some point during the conversation, you're going to state your objective, you're going to make your ask, you're going to give your case in chief. Tactical empathy sets you up in a position to do that because the first 80% of the conversation you've been flooding with tactical empathy, unconsciously or subconsciously, I should say, you have been punching their brain to elicit the rule of reciprocity. Right. Because you first did it to them, they are less inclined to push back against you. When you get to your ask because you first demonstrated it to them, we're going to force it back onto us.

That makes a lot of sense. And now when it comes to the tactical empathy being a precursor to assertiveness, what would you do? If the person is using emotions or hostility as a tactic where it's not a genuine emotion, but they're trying to manipulate you and bully you through those emotions, how does the, does the system stay the same or does it change in your estimation?

Well, first of all, you got to be careful with assuming that it's not genuine. You better have some pretty good information to back up the fact that you think that they're trying to use these emotions to manipulate. Now let's say you have that for the purpose of this discussion. I don't submit that you need to be a victim to anybody. And so how do you confront counterproductive behavior without sounding accusatory? You simply, this is probably for another podcast as well, but I would simply throw out an imessage. When you yell at me like that, I feel frustrated because it keeps any meaningful discourse from taking place. So I say when you I'm putting the onus back on you. And then whatever the behavior is in this case, when you yell at me like that, I feel frustrated because it keeps any meaningful dialogue from taking place. That's me telling you I'm not going to sit here and let you berate me. Knock it off. Without saying those words.

That's brilliant. That's brilliant. Because what you did is you started off with something that was objective, something that has occurred with when you statements, and then you followed it up with I feel. And they can't really negotiate your feelings, that that's something that exists only within you. That impact is inside of you. So it's not something that they can argue. So I really like that format because like you said, it makes it clear that you're not going to stand for that behavior, but at the same time, you didn't do it in a way that was unnecessarily aggressive.

Right? Exactly right. I'm still concerned about the impact that my words have on the other side. And tactical empathy, it's an entire mindset. It's not only what you're saying, it's what you're listening for, but more importantly, it's how you deliver it. Labeling is a great skill. Mirroring is a great skill. Paraphrasing, imessages, calibrated questions, the rule of three, all of those are great Black Swan skills. But if your delivery is terrible, it doesn't matter what you're equipped with. So it's all in how it's said. And tactical empathy embodies all of that.

I love it.

This is great. This is great. And, and we'll get more into this when it comes to the, the sparring session, because I'm going to try to push that a little bit and see how you respond, which is going to be a lot of fun. So listeners, make sure you, you keep an eye out for that. That'll. That'll be the next episode. But Derek, before you go, are there any last words of wisdom that you'd like to give on. On these three topics?

Overall, Generally speaking, the most dangerous negotiation to be involved in is one where you don't recognize it as a negotiation. And any time that you're driving for yes, regardless of the circumstances, you are in a negotiation. And so top of mind, go into that thing repeating to yourself, it's not about me, it's not about me. It's not about where you want to end up. It's not about what you're trying to achieve. Make it about the other side. Stick to the process. The results will work out.

I love it. That's perfect. And before you go, make sure you let the listeners know one more time about the book and where they can get in touch with you.

Ego, Authority, Failure. Available to you on Amazon. You can find me at theblackswanltd.com, you can find me on LinkedIn, you can find me on Instagram and you can find me on the tweeters. I'm on Twitter.

Fantastic. Derek, this was fantastic. So, so, so good. Thank you again for coming on the show, my friend.

Thank you for having me. Talk to you soon.

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

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