How Empathy and Stoicism Enhance Your Negotiation Skills with Doug Witten

Hello my fellow negotiators. Did you know I once had a listener share that after listening to our podcast, she was able to negotiate a $53,000 raise. And you know what I told her? Where is my commission? Just kidding. But the real story is this was after years of being too afraid to negotiate. But after listening to a couple of episodes on Salary Negotiation, she felt equipped with with the confidence and tools to ask for the payment she deserved. And that, my friends, is the power of negotiation. And through a subscription to our new membership community Negotiate Anything Premium, we're taking that power to the next level. With customized playlists based on our most popular topics, you'll be able to find the episodes you're looking for much faster and much easier. A tool that comes in handy as you're getting ready to prepare for an important negotiation. Even I find myself asking which episode should I listen to before heading into a high stakes negotiation? And you might be saying, but Kwame, you're the ones having the conversations. But I forget. So I listen to the episodes multiple times. Okay, now here's the thing about Negotiate Anything Premium. It'll allow you to dive deeper into the specific situations you're facing, whether it's a salary negotiation, an important business meeting, or an emotional conversation with a loved one. Bonus for you. In addition to ad free and extended episodes, Premium members will have exclusive access to solo episodes and insights from yours truly. And as you know, it will be very dry and very boring. Because I have no sense of humor and this is something that you all have been asking for. I'll also be offering personalized answers to some of your most burning questions through our Ask Me Anything feature. If you've been enjoying our traditional feedback, imagine the value a premium subscription can offer. I've felt the benefit of negotiation firsthand and it is life changing. Many of you don't know this, but my journey has taken me from people pleaser to a confident negotiator. Because I was able to do two simple things through negotiation. I was able to first change my mindset and then I was able to improve my skill set. And that is what will happen for you when you join Premium. I've already seen the impact of these skills and the power of this model not only in my own life, but also in the lives and careers of our clients all around the world. My family, my friends, and our team here at A&I, and I am confident that it can do the same for you. Now, are you ready to negotiate more of the best things in life? Check the link in the show notes to learn more. I'm excited to continue the conversation. I'll catch you later.

Doug, thanks for joining us today.

Thanks, Kwame. It's great to be here. I'm a big fan of the show.

Thank you, my friend. No, it's great to have you back. And you are the reason why so many people are a fan of our show because you wowed the audience in the past. And so we're excited to have you back on.

It's really exciting to be here, and I appreciate the opportunity.

Yeah, it's our pleasure, man. So for those of you who don't know, Doug, how about you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?

Sure. Thanks, Kwame. I am Doug Whitten. I'm a mediator, arbitrator, and negotiation coach. I am a lawyer by training as well. And so I help individuals and companies resolve lawsuits out of court and also help people negotiate more effectively in everyday situations at work and at home. And so primarily what I do as a mediator is guide people as a neutral party through a structured negotiation process. And. And I started mediating back in 2003. And over the years, I've had the privilege to help thousands of parties negotiate settlement agreements and legal disputes. And I also love to write and create content to help people become better negotiators. And that's really become a passion of mine. So between all of the amazing negotiators and people I've been fortunate to work with over the years, and then learning and writing about negotiation and psychology and behavioral economics along with it, I'm really focused on the intersection of the theory and the real world application of these concepts to produce better, practical results.

Paul, this is great. And listeners, you can tell just by that little spiel why Doug is here with us today. And Doug, listen, my humble friend, please give yourself a shout out on your substack, too.

Well, okay. Thank you. I do put out a weekly substack negotiation newsletter called the Stoic Negotiator. And that's become a real passion project of mine where, again, I'm trying to help. Help kind of get the word out on different kind of underpinnings of what makes good negotiation and kind of just giving people a forum to talk about these things and learn about negotiation together.

Yes, this is great. And so everybody, there will be links in the description of this episode. And today we're going to talk about that, introducing that stoic mindset to negotiation. So we're going to talk about how you can manage your own emotions in these difficult conversations, how you can tap into your inner mediator to become better in these difficult conversations. And.

Yeah.

Creating some practical ties between the ancient wisdom of stoicism and what it is that we're dealing with today. When you think about the importance of emotion management in difficult conversations, why is this so important for the everyday negotiators listening to the show?

Well, the first thing you think about is when you're emotionally charged, when things get a little bit emotional in a conversation, how often do we make good, good decisions? You know, I think it's one of those things where you have to recognize the emotions, but then to really get to a productive conversation. It's kind of a process of recognizing, but then turning to a conversation where you're really guided by reason and your emotions are kind of channeled in a more productive way.

Exactly, yeah. So, Doug, one of the things that I've realized for myself is that when I'm upset or emotional or anything like that, the first thing I want to say is usually the wrong answer. You know, he's usually taking me in the wrong direction. But that's the thing. You can spend a lifetime building up a relationship, but you can destroy it in one sentence if you are in the wrong emotional state. So it's really important because a lot of times we focus so much on the strategies and tactics before the negotiation that we forget to realize that if we don't manage our emotions during the negotiation, we won't be able to put those strategies and tactics into play.

That. That's right. That's right. And, you know, I think if you look back at one of the kind of the basic stoic lessons, you know, you can go back as far as Epictetus, who was kind of teaching that it's not the things that upset us, it's our reactions to things that do. And, you know, people probably also are possibly familiar with the. The Viktor Frankl idea that you have the stimulus and response between there. There's a space, and that's where you have the power to choose your response. So we have that control. There's certain things in life we can control, certain things we can't. A lot of things are not in our control, even in a negotiation setting. But we know we can always fall back on this principle, that our response is what we can actually always control.

Absolutely, yes. There's so many angles for this. Let's do this, Doug. Let's first set the stage with the concept of the inner mediator, because I think that's going to be something that a lot of people, that's going to be new to a lot of people. Go back, let's circle back to the stoicism quickly because I don't think you'd be able to utilize that intermediator. If you are not in a place of emotional stability, it'll be difficult for you to get to that level. Let's touch on that. When you say inner mediator, what does that mean?

Yeah, I've come to think of this as finding your intermediator or using what you might call a mediation mindset. People come to mediators for different reasons when they need assistance resolving a dispute and they ask a neutral third party to come in and take an objective view of a case or a situation and help them see all sides of the discussion and then communicate towards a resolution. So being a mediator for so long, I realized that looking at situations objectively and without judgment is so essential to what mediators do. But it also creeps into the way that I manage everyday situation situations all the time. So, you know, relating to people going through the mediation process, I started thinking, well, to the extent that people can call on this sort of intermediator within themselves, not just in a formal setting, but also anytime we're involved in a dispute or we're trying to resolve a conflict, it's a good mental cue to kind of get in the best position to persuade, resolve conflict and negotiate most effectively. So you're kind of, to me, it's kind of seeking a zoomed out view of your dispute or your situation. And you might hear it as getting the 30,000 foot view, or seeing the forest and the trees, or taking the view from the balcony, something like that. Where you're able to kind of step away and really get a more objective full picture of what's going on, not just from what you might be kind of sort of, you're sitting there on your side of the situation, but if you can kind of step back sometimes it helps us get a better perspective and start to build towards a resolution that's going to work for, for everybody involved.

I love that. Yeah, you're spot on. Because one of the things that hurts us, like you said, it's our response to the situation, not necessarily the situation itself. And if we can change our perspective, we could look at the exact same situation but appreciate it in a much different way. I like the idea of the intermediator because it adds another layer of objectivity in my mind. So, for example, we can think about the. I believe it was getting to yes, it was Yuri and Fisher who came up with getting to the balcony, right?

I think that's right, yeah.

And so with their approach, like you said, you're sitting above the conflict, looking down. The thing is, that's good. It gives you another vantage point. Let's say if you're doing that literally, but it's still you yourself looking down on the conflict and you still have that self serving bias that's rooted in your own perspective. But if you say, oh, there is an inner mediator inside of my head who is helping me to stay objective, then it adds another layer of objectivity. So, yes, you're distancing yourself from it, getting a different perspective, but then you're also kind of forcing yourself to look at it through the eyes of a third party neutral. I'm no longer Kwame Christian because Kwame Christian loves Kwame Christian and he's always going to see things in a way that's favorable to me. Right. But if I have this third party neutral, it forces me to be a little bit more objective. And I found that when I do that in my conversations, it, it helps me to gain stability faster and see things from a different angle.

Yeah, I think that's exactly right. And again, the goal of all this is to help us make better decisions, resolve conflict and have more productive negotiations by again gaining that objectivity, that helps you get the best perspective you possibly can of the complete situation and what both sides might need to reach a resolution.

Exactly. And I like what you said there because again, this is helping us to make better decisions. And what you realize, listeners, is that what we're talking about today, obviously it can be applied to difficult conversations. That's the context. But in general, everything that we're doing is about decision making. We live our lives one decision to another, and if we're able to improve our quality of decision making, then we'll be able to improve the quality of our lives. And as it relates to difficult conversations, we're talking about what we will do and say in the moment. So I think again, as you listen to this, don't just think about how this helps you in general. For specific conversations, I want you to expand your perspective so it could just be used as a tool for clearer and higher level thinking and decision making too.

I was at a keynote the other day and a listener walked up to me and said, hey, Kwame, my favorite part of the show, it's the ads. He was the only person who said that though. If you don't like ads, maybe you should consider Joining Negotiate Anything Premium, where you can access insights from your favorite negotiation experts with ad free listener and extended episodes. Bonus, you'll also get access to exclusive solo episodes and personalized advice from yours truly. If you've been looking for an easy and affordable way to level up your skills and negotiate more of the best things in life, join our premium community. Click the link in the Show Notes to learn more. And now enjoy this commercial. And so, for that gentleman who told me he enjoys the commercial, this one's for you.

And that's right. That's exactly right. When we're negotiating, we really are making a series of decisions, just like we're making decisions every day in our lives. Negotiation is like a specific context, but really, like you said, this is about decision making and trying to get the best decisions we possibly can make and having kind of some mental cues and models for doing that.

Exactly. Now let's shift to stoicism. This is where it's going to get fun. And I know listeners, you're saying, but Kwame, it was already so fun. How could it get. We're about to blow your mind. Let's start off by setting the stage with stoicism. What is stoicism? And then let's move on to the stoic mindset applied to difficult conversations.

Yeah. And the first thing I do want to say is I'm not walking around pondering the universe or the meaning of life or anything like that. Like, like maybe a typical, whatever philosophers do. This is, this is really something that's got very practical applications. So this is very, it's very useful. It's kind of a way to build on what's been thought of in the past. But, but it's very practical and it's got a lot of applications for specifically negotiation. So this is a 2000 year old ancient philosophy that came out of Greece and Rome. And the lessons of Stoicism, again, have direct application to negotiation. We live in a sophisticated and complex world, but sometimes getting back to basics is surprisingly effective. And I have consistently observed basic Stoic principles underlying the work of effective negotiators. And just taking some of the basic building blocks, using them as we approach negotiation, I've found can be very useful. Very useful.

Agreed. And again, it goes back to clarity of thought. The clearer we are just cognitively, the higher our performance will be. And you're right, we don't need to reinvent the wheel. There have been people who have been thinking about this for centuries, millennia actually. And the reality is that the fundamental premise of the Stoic philosophies remains the same, even though culture, society, technology, all of those things have adapted and evolved. The basic fundamental principles would apply. When you think about the fundamental principles of stoicism as it applies to difficult conversations, what are some of the things that come to mind for you?

I think one of the most important concepts is that of accepting what you can and cannot change, understanding there's certain things you can control and certain things you can't control, and then acting on those things that you can control. And these are, again, this is a basic principle of Stoicism. It also happens to be a quality of, I think, great negotiators and conflict resolvers. So there's that component to it. And then it's also kind of cultivating this awareness that does allow you to step back, analyze your own senses and the way you perceive things. And one of the ideas from Stoicism, too, is this idea of turning obstacles into opportunity. Again, very important in negotiation and mediation. And then there's this idea that there's no good or bad, it's just perception. And perception is what we can control. That's so important to the skilled negotiator to be able to respond kind of dispassionately and turn challenges into opportunities, and also to manage our emotions, particularly emotions that might prevent us from making good decisions, kind of handling those and managing those in a way that allows us to then turn to making those better decisions and using our kind of processing emotion, but then using some more objective and kind of our second system thinking to make some logical decisions and try to get to a better resolution that way.

There is a lot to explore here. Let's start off with the concept of acceptance and letting go of that which you cannot control and only focusing on that which you can control. Because I know there are some really hard charging negotiators out there because I've trained them and they often say, kwame, how do I control the negotiation? Doug, this might surprise you, but people don't like to be controlled. Newsflash, people surprise. When you have that mentality of how do I control in negotiation, that flies in the face of what you just talked about with regard to the stoic approach to negotiation. Because a major element of that is going to be accepting that which you cannot control. And so how do you reconcile the desire of somebody who's very outcome oriented, who wants to control the situation? How would you persuade that person to take a different approach and start to let go of the things that are outside of their control?

Well, you've Hit on the challenge there. It's a very, you know, this is one of these skills that I think it takes a lifetime to master, because I think we do have an instinct to want to control things. We are wired to crave certainty and control. And sometimes in a negotiation or just like in all sorts of situations in life, a lot of these things are not in our control. So when you're in a negotiation, certainly it's going to be a natural instinct to try to control it. But what I think can be useful is to. First you have to make an analysis of, is this something I can control? Is this not something I control? The wisdom coming out of this philosophy is knowing the difference between the controllable and the inevitable. So the first thing is, can I affect this situation? You know, if you have a person who you're trying to negotiate with and you know they're being. They're not seeing things your way. I mean, you know, again, what you can control is how you respond to what they're saying, what they're doing. You're not, you know, you're kind of spinning your wheels if you think you're going to be able to actually control that other person. So if there's a way to let that go and start shifting and then move, move to, hey, this I know I can control. I can control how I respond and I can start looking to the future. Things like what's happened in the past is another example. I can't control that. I can't do anything about that. But if we can start moving the conversation to things that we can address right here and right now, that gives us an outline for moving towards a resolution so that, you know, sometimes you might need the assistance of a third party to come in and help you kind of see things from taking a step back and realizing that you can't control everything out there. Well, let's focus on what we can control right here and right now. So it's a very practical approach, but the hard part is knowing the difference between what I can impact and what I can't.

Yeah, no, you're spot on. You're spot on. And I like what you said about sometimes you might need to get somebody from the outside to help. It might be that third party neutral coming in and facilitating the conversation for both parties. It might be a negotiation coach helping you to see things more objectively. And I know when we do consulting for companies, it's not that the people don't know how to negotiate. They're expert negotiators. We just Come in with a different perspective because we're from the outside, help them to see things differently, and then they think differently about the negotiation. When you think about somebody's desire to maintain control over a negotiation, we have to take a step back and think about what's driving that. Because when you think logically about it, you will come to the conclusion, hey, it makes sense. I can't control everything. The person has autonomy over their own decision making. They're going to say and do things that I didn't anticipate, that I cannot stop even if I wanted to. There are things that we recognize that we can't control. But then why is it that we keep on trying to control? It is an emotional attachment to the fear of letting go. It's the fear of the unknown. So really we, if we take a step back and analyze it, the logical thing to do is to let go of control. And the reason why we don't let go of control is because our emotions make us want to continue to cling to control. And so it's actually an emotional issue where most of the people who are trying to maintain control, they will swear that it's not.

Right. Right. And another related, what I think is a really underappreciated trait of a great negotiator is humility. And I think again, building on something that I think it was Epictetus, one of the ancient Stoics, that said is you can't learn what you think. You already know something along those lines. And that's again, I think the humble negotiators understand that there are many fewer clear answers and much more uncertainty in the choices that we make. They realize that things aren't always as they seem. And just because they see things one way, that doesn't mean there's, in my case, talking to legal attorneys and people in lawsuits. That doesn't mean a judge or jury is going to see things that way. There are just too many variables to control. And I think a lot of people may be familiar with the great Mike Tyson quote about having a plan until you get hit. But he also said, if you're not humble, life will visit humbleness upon you. And so you have to be at least have that awareness that I can't control everything. And also I can't predict everything that's going to happen in the future. And there's things that I could learn from the other party that I don't know. Just having that open mindedness and that leads to curiosity too, that helps you start realizing, hey, there might be other ways to look at this. And maybe if I kind of get a little bit more from the perspective of the other person and that person gets a little bit more from my perspective, Even though there's that desire to control, if we kind of work together and realize there's certain things we're just going to have to put together here the best we can, that gives you. You have to at least start from the realization that I don't know everything and I can't possibly control everything.

Absolutely. And Doug, tell me what you think about this, because what you said made me realize something. Because we understand that proper behaviors often flow organically from the proper mindset. And really a lot of the things that we talked about today are mindset related things. If I change the way that I think about this, for example, if I'm willing to accept the fact that I'm not in control of things, that will help me to regain a higher level of emotional stability. Right, we get that. And that's a mindset thing. What I'm realizing is that the mindset will affect your skill set because it'll affect what you do and say in the conversation.

But.

But your skill set will also amplify or have an effect on your mindset as well. So for instance, if I say, okay, Doug, I'm willing to let go of control, that means now I'm relying more on my skills. I'm availing myself to surprise. I'm being genuinely curious. I'm listening. And I know that there are going to be surprises. But if I have the requisite skills in this conversation, I can lean back and still feel secure in my position because I have the skills. So it sounds like if somebody has the right mindset, that's only part of the battle. It will be amplified if you have the skill set to be able to calmly accept your lack of control too.

Oh, I think that's absolutely right. We're just talking about almost like a mental framework coming in. Then you can get to the skills. That's right. That's when that's, you know. But you have to come in with the right frame of mind. But then that's exactly right. Then the skills take over and you can. There's all different ways you can try to. We're talking about a lot of things that you want to try to do in a negotiation, but there's so many different ways you can get there.

Absolutely. Yeah. This is great. We talked about the accepting the lack of control that we have while focusing on the things that we can control. Like our performance, our mindset, those type of things. Talked about the power of humility. And before you go, there's another really interesting angle to this that I hadn't heard before. And this is the blend of the stoic philosophy and empathy. I really, really like that. So can you tell us a bit more about that connection?

Yeah, I think empathy, if you are able to find empathy in these difficult conversations or negotiations, it helps kind of build the objective view, it helps build the humility. These all kind of work together. Empathy is something that I know people talk about frequently in negotiation conversations, but here I think it's really interesting to meld it with some of these other stoic ideas because, you know, if you ask yourself or really ask yourself what it's like to be in the other person's shoes, you don't have to like the person, you don't have to agree with them or feel sorry for them. But if you can tap into how they view the world and what's important to them, you can start to understand what they might need to get out of a negotiation to be satisfied and resolve it. So again, going back to the point about humility, just admitting that you don't, you don't know everything about the other person's point of view. For example, you can't possibly, because you're coming from somewhere different, but it's a useful start for trying to gain the best understanding you can. And it helps you realize it's dangerous to make assumptions going into a negotiation. And if you really want to take it to the next level, you can even help your counterpart experience empathy towards you. And you can ask good questions. That's one way to do that. And you can ask things like, what would you do if you were me, if you were in my shoes? How would you feel about this? How would you handle this? Instead of the more, maybe the more familiar, you know, if I were you, I would so and so it's kind of the flip flop version. And it's simple. It shows deference to the other side. It maybe gets you some reciprocal deference in return, and it helps you understand their process. It gives you valuable information, and it kind of subtly shifts the other person to see things from your side as well. So you're kind of building this reciprocal empathy that again, it works well with this objectivity idea and the humility and some of the control ideas we've talked about to this point.

I love this, Doug. And one of the things that's so interesting about this blend between empathy and stoicism, is the fact that it kind of pushes aside one bias or prejudice that people might have against the idea of stoicism, which they think about stoicism in the colloquial sense of somebody being stoic, in that they don't have emotions. Actually, we should link to this episode in the description. We did an episode a year or two ago with the title of Empathetic Stoicism Blending Emotional Intelligence with Stoicism. It was really interesting approach, and it sounds like here you. You're advocating for something similar where we're taking the time to be respectful enough to learn about the other side, listen deferentially, and recognize that they are the expert in their lived experience, and we need their help in understanding where they're coming from. We're not using stoicism to disconnect ourselves from emotion, but if we do it the right way, it should amplify our emotion, emotional intelligence.

Right. And that's one thing I've learned is stoicism is not about being kind of robotic or cold or unfeeling or emotionless. It's really, you know, some people describe this as distinguishing between stoicism with a capital S and with the lowercase S. You know, I think the term stoicism, it's kind of taken on a different meaning and, you know, colloquial use. But the stoics, I think they're talking more about kind of managing passions that are irrational or unhealthy, like excessive anger or something like that. So it's not about being emotionless at all. And in fact, I think working the empathy with the rest of these principles, it helps you complete your sort of mindset. Coming in as a stoic negotiator.

Oh, I love this. And Doug, like I told you at the beginning of this episode, my challenge is going to be holding back because I know we're coming up on time. But before you go, can you let the listeners know about you, your question company and how they can get in touch with you?

Sure, sure. Thank you. So my company is Innovative ADR. You can find me@innovative ADR.com and also on LinkedIn. Feel free to reach out. And I have a handbook I published on mediation called the Mediation Essentials Toolkit. I do put out that weekly substack newsletter about negotiation called the Stoic Negotiator. And I'm about to launch my full for my first multimedia negotiation training course, which should be available sometime in the middle of 2022. So I'm really excited about that. And it's been Great talking to you, Kwame.

Likewise. Same as always, my friend. And yes, we'll have you back on to talk more about that program when it's time to come out, Doug. Really appreciate it, my friend. Thanks for coming on.

Thank you.

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

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