How Introverted Leaders Succeed in Extroverted Environments with Patience Ogunbona

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. Thanks for joining us today. With over 10 million downloads and listeners from more than 180 different countries, it's dedicated listeners just like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of of the American Negotiation Institute. Now, before we get into today's insightful conversation, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives. Have you ever found yourself wishing that you could navigate those high stakes conversations with more confidence? Or perhaps you're looking to empower your team with the art of persuasion and conflict resolution? At the American Negotiation Institute, we've crafted specialized keynotes and workshops tailored for those very needs. We've transformed the negotiation skills of professionals worldwide, and we're eager to do the same for you. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And our goal is to help you improve your lives and the lives of those around you one difficult conversation at a time. Don't let another challenging conversation leave you second guessing. Click the link in the description to discover how we can help you find confidence in conflict, negotiate better deals, and have stronger relationships. Because in the world of business, every conversation counts. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Patience, thanks for joining us today.

Thanks for having me, Kwame. I'm glad to be here.

Yeah, it is our pleasure. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

So I call myself the Visionary Introverted Woman, and I say that introversion gives me purpose. So I am an executive career and leadership coach, and I work with introverted women to help them leverage their strengths so that they can achieve presence, positioning, and profit with whatever gifts and talents they have in an extroverted world. I also help organizations to leverage their talent pool in such a way that they're able to effectively develop leaders within their teams and build a profitable and sustainable business.

Oh, I love this patience. And so, one thing that I realized as you were talking, I hear I see a lot of books focused on how introverts can really unlock their potential, lead, persuade, manage effectively, those type of things. And there seems to be a robust community of leaders in the introvert in the. In the space that are focused on introverts. But what's interesting is I don't see the same type of support or focus on extroverts. And it was like it perked my attention because you said, I'm helping people to understand how they can. How they can succeed in an introverted. Sorry. In an extroverted world. So when you think about us living in an extroverted world, what does that mean to you?

Let me start by telling a little story. I've just come from France from Maxwell Leadership Conference, a John Maxwell certified coach. Basically, I asked the question as one of the ambassadors we had to help people off stage. And while we were helping people off stage, there were men on my side. And they would stretch out their hands to help the ladies get down from the stairs, but then put their hand back when a man was coming down the stairs. So I said to my colleague, the ambassador, I said, why aren't you helping the men? It's a dangerous step, whoever the person is that is coming. Right? He was like, well, I don't have an answer to that. But later on I said to him, really, I want to know who said that it was not okay to help a man and stretch out your hand for a man. Because I was ready to help everybody. But it felt odd stretching out my hand for a man because they would look at me and go, what exactly are you doing? You know? So what I'm trying to say here is you've heard the song that says, it's a man's world and majority rules. So it's the same thing. When it comes to introversion, extroversion, there's something like 55% of the population is extroverted. I mean, 45% introverted. So you find that people create things like Open Office. Open Office works brilliantly for extroverts who don't mind external stimulus coming at them like a hoax. But for the introvert, that's one of our worst nightmares. You can't control the light, you can control the sound. It's all open. You can control the people around you. So your thinking can get impact by having an open plan office. But that is the norm. That's what safe cost. That's what the first thing people think. It's all about interacting. Nobody thinks of the other side. So that's why I'm saying it's an extroverted world. If you're an introvert in that space, you've got to manage your energy, you've got to manage your thinking capabilities so that you can cope and survive in that environment.

I love this answer for two main reasons. The first reason is we need to normalize health, helping men off stage. Because as a Public speaker. That is one of my biggest fears. I'm like, why are these stairs so small and so steep? If I fall every time. Patience. Every time I'm walking up the stairs and walking down, I'm like, this is the time I'm going to fall this time. So I like, I like that aspect of it. But on the other side, I think it's. The reason why I asked this question is because I think that people don't realize what kind of world we live in. There was a really famous public speaker who was doing a commencement speech, a graduation speech, and he said there were these fish swimming in the ocean. And one fish goes up to another fish and says, how's the water? And the other fish says, what is water? Right. It's so ubiquitous around the fish that it doesn't even acknowledge its existence. And when you think about the, the, the world that we live in, it's designed in many ways by extroverts, for extroverts, and we don't take the time to question it. And so for the listeners of the podcast, I think it's important if you, as an introvert, somebody who's more introverted, it's important to recognize that you're not abnormal or there's not something wrong with you. And a lot of times the resistance that you feel is because the world was designed for extroverts versus introverts. And so we need to develop strategies around that. And then on the other side, if you identify as an extrovert and you don't recognize that this world was designed for your benefit, it helps you to empathize at a higher level with our introverted colleagues. So I think that's a really important place for us to start.

Yes, I think so. I think it's. It's not, it's not trying to say introverts are weak. It's not trying to say extroverts are strong. It's not trying to say any of those things. It's just recognizing this is how the world is. And if you really want to thrive, recognizing the differences, appreciating them, and doing what you can to either be the change or adapt something, then you are able to thrive.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And I know that one of your big focus is introverted leadership. And one of the things that you talk about is courageous leadership, which I really, really like, and the reason I like the word courage versus fearless is because courage acknowledges that you have a fear and then you overcome it. Fearlessness is a pathology. You should be afraid of some things. There's a reason evolutionarily why we have fear. It keeps us alive. I don't want to be fearless. I want to have that fear so I can still understand and analyze the situation effectively. And most of the time, when you think you can't just tell somebody to be fearless. Oh, sweet. Okay, I'll turn off my amygdala. Thanks for that advice. Right. But being courageous is more realistic. And so when you think about courageous leadership, what would you say are the keys? Hello, my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question. Have you ever wondered how to elevate your team's negotiation game and how you can help the folks on your team have better, difficult conversations? At the American Negotiation Institute, we offer transformative keynotes and workshops tailored to empower professionals with top tier negotiation and conflict resolution skills. Whether it's a keynote for your next event or hands on training for your team, we've got you covered. Don't just negotiate. Master the art with the American Negotiation Institute. Click the link in the description to find out more. Elevate, negotiate, and succeed.

For me, courageous leadership has basically six foundations that I recognize. The first and foremost, you're right about the word fearless versus the word courage. Many of us can be fearless in situations where we have had an experience before. Over time, you don't exhibit any fear because you've done it over time. You've seen people do it, they're safe. But then in situations where you've never tried something before or you know that deep down within you, you don't have the strengths to meet up with the challenge that is in front of you, you shouldn't then take a step back and go, I'm not going to do it. So courage allows you to move forward. So what are. In my view, there are six foundations to look at when it comes to courageous leadership. And the first one is basically effectively self regulation. You regulate yourself. The other is you cast a vision for where you want to go, whether or not that looks possible in your current reality. And then you plan a strategy. How do I get to that space? And you decide that you're not going to go alone. It takes courage to go, I don't think. I think it takes pride to go alone. It takes courage to go with others. Because the truth about it is managing people, directing people is not easy. It's easier to say, I have all the control because everything here is me doing it myself. But leadership is actually about directing people. So that's the number four is learning to direct others. The number five is equip and empower others, not just direct them. So it's one thing to say, come along with me. It's another thing to say, I leave you to do all these things on your own and that will empower you. And the last one is you build teams around you to help you accomplish more. Whether you are there or not, you're able to accomplish more because you have people around you. So for me, I think that these are the key factors that are needed for a courageous leader to be able to lead effectively.

I love that. So let me run through these patients, tell me if I got it down right. So we have self regulation, we have casting a vision, creating a strategy, directing others, equipping and directing others with the skills that they need to be successful. And then number six is building teams around you. Yes, this is, this is really interesting because when I was thinking about courageous leadership, I was, I was focusing on the fear that lives within ourselves about stepping up, speaking up and having those tough conversations and doing what needs to be done and maybe overcoming self limiting beliefs. And I think all of that is, is encapsulated in number one. And then number two through six. Those number are all about having the courage to lead and trust others as you move forward. Am I getting that right?

100%. And this whole thing comes out of my own journey. When I start every year, I start every year with a keyword. And so last year one of the keywords I had was, my main keyword is the word trust. So I start the year with the keyword and I move on to different keywords as I come across the different ways I want to handle my month or my quarter. But my keyword last year was trust. And it was one trusting myself, trusting God and trusting other people. When I then got to the end of the year, I thought, what's going to be my word for 2020? And deep down within intuitively I was able to understand that. I think I've done a lot of trusting God to help me. Now I have to take leaps and jump out and do those big things. But then the next thing is two areas of growth was trusting others and trusting myself more with the decisions that I made. So my word for this year became courage. And that is how all throughout you recognize that when you lead yourself well, you find the courage to lead others because you have an understanding and an empathy of what they're going through to be able to get or step up to that next level.

This is really good. This is really Good. And now when we talk about trusting others, this is really important as a leader, because if you don't trust your team, then you turn into a micromanager. People don't like that. How do you get to a place of confidence in your team to trust them enough to lead effectively?

Like I said, first and foremost, the foundation is learning to trust your own self. And the second thing is you're able to trust a team that you have equipped. If you're not equipped people, you won't trust them. You can't delegate when you have not equipped or you have not understood the potential and the strength within people, or you've not nurtured that potential. And when you nurture potential, then you let go. When you're trusting yourself, you are modeling already the courage that is needed. You're taking action. And when you're modeling that, the people around you are seeing what you're doing and how you're doing it. And it has to be intentional modeling or mentoring, whether you are like direct or indirect, has to be intentional. And that is then how you're able to say, I trust my team because I've shown them what to do. They've seen it happen before. They seen it modeled, they've seen it done. I have equipped them to be able to go ahead and take up this challenge.

I love this. This is really, really helpful. And now when we think about introverted leaders, what is different for them when it comes to how they experience leadership, being in that role, and then when it comes to how they lead?

Yeah. So one of the things that I know a lot of introverts, working with introverts, being an introvert myself in the corporate world as well as in the business world, is when people talk about, oh, this person is quiet. So they're not going to be able to talk to people and tell people what to do. That's because many times people think leadership is about telling people what to do. And the truth is, that's not what leadership, leadership. Like I said, if you equip people and you then trust them to do things, they are able to take responsibility without you telling them what to do. They get on with it. So in terms of introverts, many introverts have said, I'm too quiet, I'm not direct enough. I don't talk to people for. So how do I get people to do things? So it's to understand this other element of you don't have to push people before they do things and is to find the courage to actually say, I want to serve. Because some people don't recognize two things about leadership is service and sacrifice. And I know a lot of introverts are also empaths, you know, and they very observant, very, you know, the quietness is all about taking in what's happening around you and understanding was. Whereas the extrovert is very quick to just jump to that next thing. The introvert is probably taking the time to look at what's happening here. Why is it happening? And that makes the introvert a very, very important part of your team. Because the teams that you, the things that you miss, they will see and they can take the lead from a place of service. I will serve in giving you insights that you don't have. If you need to get some clarity, go to Patience. She's the leader there. So when you see, if you. When I introduced myself, I talked about leveraging your strengths, you step up and say, these are my strengths and I want to leverage them here because I can see the gap in this team. So that is how I'm going to provide leadership, by leveraging my strengths of intuition, of deep thinking, of deep connection that will then help me build a team. You know, things like that. So I believe that introverts. I used to struggle at work in the corporate world because they said, oh, you don't talk much, you don't. But I'm listening in the meetings and whatever I hear sometimes when I come up with my own observation, it's like, oh, oh, we didn't think about that. And I'm like, I know you wouldn't because everybody. So that's, that's the key thing is to recognize that you can step up and see a gap and decide to step up to lead, to direct, to provide some kind of support that will make a difference.

I love this and really what it, what it's sounding like to me and Patience, you tell me if I'm, if I'm off on this. It's sounding like one of the keys to leading as an introvert is to acknowledge and recognize your unique strengths because you have unique values that you bring to the conversation. You have a unique skill set, a unique perspective, and you think differently. And once you recognize that this is something that you bring to the table that a lot of other people don't, it helps you to find that courage to say and do what needs to be said and done.

Yeah. And also I think anybody who is saying I want to promote somebody needs to have the courage to also promote an introvert that they think this person is Quiet. How would they get the work done? Because many times it's the loud person that is able to sell themselves, that is able to put themselves out there, that is recognized as, oh, yes, they can take charge, they can take authority, they can do it. And it's so hard sometimes for the introvert to then come up with, I can do it too, but I would do it differently. So it's finding that courage to, like you rightfully said, understand what strengths you bring, understand how that strength translates into results, and put yourself forward talking about those results because you recognize that they are needed and there's a gap there, and you put yourself forward and deliver. I can provide one example. Everywhere I went, I introduced an induction process. I have sensitivity to people starting out without support, throw them in the deep end and sink or swim. So I always set up an induction process. Now, looking back then, I didn't think about it as, oh, this is. But I took my own journey and my own struggle when I started. And I introduced an induction process that included mentoring and shadowing and reviews that would help people who are starting out to really settle in better and stronger. Not just faster, but stronger. So that ultimately what you want them to do is to be independent members of the team that can contribute more effectively because they have been inducted properly. And so that's somewhere that initially I used to think that's just something I wanted to do to support. But that, to me, is an area of leadership, an area where I took charge and provided support recognizing the gap within the business.

This is great. This is great. And I know we're coming up on time here, but before we go, especially since we were just talking about the introverted leaders, you have a program that's coming up, a workshop for leaders who are women who are introverted, right?

Yes.

Can you tell the audience about that?

So what I recognized as part of the courageous journey, or being a courageous leader or having courage to be in business or anything, is the fact that you need to be growing. You just don't go through things. You grow through things, and you just don't live your life. You lead your life. So basically, I've been talking a lot about growth plans, setting up a growth plan, having an intentional way of looking at your gaps and closing it. So this workshop is about helping the introverted woman to win. So I call it five ways to win as an introverted Woman. Moving from goals to growth. If you're aspiring to something better, then it's not just your goals. You need to have growth plans. So this is what my workshop is about. I'm running it on 4 August, inviting women who want to step up in their careers, step up to that next level in their business to come along and develop at the end of the two hour workshop a growth plan that they can take and implement.

Oh, this is great. Patience. Thanks for sharing that and everybody. There will be links in the description of this episode if you want to learn more. Links to Patience's website and her LinkedIn profile and all that good stuff. Patience, any last words you want to say before we wrap up?

I really just want to say thank you for having me. And to say that our world really needs everyone to recognize that you have a responsibility. Therefore, you need to step up and be a courageous leader in your own sphere of influence. Thank you.

My pleasure. Thanks for joining us. Really appreciate it. Congratulations. You've just joined an elite club by listening to a full episode. You're now officially on the Negotiate Anything team, so welcome aboard. What most team members do is they subscribe to the podcast because that allows them to automatically get the latest episodes of the show. The best things in life lie on the other side of difficult conversations. Keep learning, keep practicing and keep getting better. Your relationships will improve, your career will soar, and you'll have the confidence you need to get the most out of these crucial conversations. Again, thank you for joining the team. We're excited to have you and I will see you in the next episode. I'll catch you later.