How The Power of Silence Can Make or Break a Negotiation with Amy Mariani

Hello, my friends, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. Negotiate Anything is produced by the American Negotiation Institute and with over 3 million downloads and listeners in over 180 countries, listeners just like you have made it the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm Kwame Christian and I'm the director of the American Negotiation Institute. We're growing and I want to introduce you to our new team members and new trainers. This will give you new and diverse perspectives on negotiation, conflict resolution. And that's why Shane Martin, our head of sales and partnerships, is going to serve as co host of the show from time to time. We're excited to continue to provide you with the best content that will help to make your difficult conversations easier, both at work and at home. Lastly, our team conducts negotiation and conflict resolution trainings in the United States and abroad. Our trainings will give you the practical skills you need to resolve conflict, negotiate, lead, and persuade with confidence. Click the link in the description below to learn more about how we can make your difficult conversations easier. Amy, thanks for joining us today.

Great to be here. Thanks so much for having me.

Yes, it is our pleasure. We were excited to have you, even though we were rescheduled a few times.

It happens.

So how about you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?

Sure. I'm a mediator. I've been mediating full time for about five years after a 20 year career as a trial attorney trying case in employment, personal injury and contracts disputes. And that tends to be where the focus of my practice is most of the time these days. But I love the shift and I love, love helping people work through problems and move forward to resolution.

Fantastic. And where are you based?

I'm based out of the Boston area, but these days geography doesn't really matter because 99% of my work these days is over. Zoom.

Nice. That makes sense. That makes sense now. Actually, even before we get into the interview. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this. What has been the biggest change for you going from being a litigator to a mediator mindset?

It really is challenging for someone who's trained as a lawyer to think in the way that an effective mediator needs to think. And that is basically, you don't have skin in the game. When you're a mediator, if you've got skin in the game, there's a problem because your job is to be neutral and help the parties through things as opposed to be advocating for or against a particular position. So shifting that Mindset, from being an advocate to being somebody who's really a partner with the individuals who are going through conflict, was the biggest change. And the people who worked with me very early on when I was doing practicums would tell you that I had the typical lawyer mindset where I wanted to come in and solve the problems. And that's not really what negotiation is all about.

That's great. And I think the big takeaway is that that mindset can be learned, right?

Yes, very definitely. It takes practice and it takes consciousness, but if you have those two things, you most definitely can. Can learn to up your game.

Absolutely. Love it. Great. So before we get started, listeners, you know how it goes. We're going to give a quick roadmap to talk about the things we're going to address. So, number one, we're going to talk about sile. It's been a while since we've talked about silence. I think it was Julia ewart back in September 2020. So it's time to bring that back now. Then we're going to go to number two, which is body language, how to read it and then what to do with it. And then lastly, segmentation, which might be a new concept for a lot of our listeners. So I'm excited to jump in to this. So where should we start when we're talking about silence?

Silence. Oh, boy. That's. It's. It's a really interesting concept, and it's one that I really first started thinking about when was sitting across from the car dealer the very first time I went to go buy a car. And I don't know if others have had this experience, but I found myself bargaining against myself because I couldn't keep my mouth shut, whereas the dealer just sat there calmly and quietly, didn't say anything, and let me talk myself into the price that he had offered to sell me the car for. And that was really my first experience many years ago with the value of silence as a negotiating tool. Since then, I've really noticed that the person who sits back truly listens to what the other person is saying and allows the other person to bring out and bring forth more information is usually in the driver's seat and in a negotiation.

Yes. And it's so counterintuitive. But the thing that's interesting is that people will toss that around all the time. Oh, silence is an important part of negotiation. Silence, silence, silence. We hear that and we know that. But what makes it so hard for.

People to actually do it, it's actually psychology. And there are A number of studies out there that show how difficult it is for us to. From a social perspective, a social norms perspective, to stay silen. And we view silence as awkward and uncomfortable. And we move in to fill that airspace because those silences, to most of us, feel very, very weird and very, very uncomfortable. So if we can learn to be comfortable with that silence and that quiet, we can actually gain a great deal of information. But it comes from very early stages. If you go to almost any societal gathering, any gathering of two or more people, there is an ebb and flow to the conversation in which there are very few pauses.

It's interesting, okay, so it takes practice. And then we recognize that there's that psychological drive to fill that silence with something. And really there's. If you try to utilize silence, what you're going to notice is that there's going to feel almost. Almost like anxiety, some pressure building up in that moment when. When you should be silent but your body is saying, say something, anything, just anything. And so when we're at that moment where we recognize it's an important part of a negotiation and we should say, stay silent, but our body and mind are saying, no, say something. What is it that you do that helps you to maintain that discipline?

Breathe. That's the. That's the easiest and best answer I can give you is, is just take some time to focus on breathing and being present in the moment. And if I can do those two things, it allows me to get through those. Those pauses without feeling like I'm doing nothing. Other people don't realize what I'm doing, but I'm concentrating on my breathing, and I'm doing it quietly and subtly. But it really gives me the ability to get through that, that time without feeling like I have to do something because I am doing something. And it's doing something that's putting me in a positive state in two ways. First of all, it's making me more aware of the moment and more present in the moment. And the other thing it's doing is it's giving me that diversion that my brain needs.

That's great. And you sound like somebody who meditates. Am I right?

I don't do it formally, but it's part of sort of my exercise practice and sort of my calming down. You know, when I'm lifting weights, which is what I do for fun, you know, I try to get my breathing down between sets, and that's sort of my contemplative time. And I find myself going. Going to places that I never otherwise would Expect to go. But it's, it's not a formal practice, but it's, it's, it's fun. I enjoy it.

That's great. Yeah, it's formal enough. It works.

Yeah, it does.

That's great. Yeah. I started meditating years ago, but off and on, way more often on. So once I started to use the Headspace app, it really helped just to make it more of a ritual. But you're right in the, in the gym, taking time to breathe. Sometimes I just say, all right, five breaths between sets, that would help. And just getting into that habit of focusing on your breathing more during your day, it'll become more natural for you to do it in that moment because.

Exactly. Yep.

Really, when it, when you think about it, with negotiation, conflict resolution, all of these types of things, meditation too, they're, they're not natural things to do because your body and your mind are really trying to compel you to do something else. And that something else is usually not the most persuasive thing in the moment.

Exactly, exactly. Well, our natural compulsion as humans is to win. And that often results in our moving forward aggressively instead of deliberatively. And deliberate action, nine times out of 10 is going to beat that aggressive emotional response in terms of long term success. So learning to train ourselves to take that step back, to take that pause, and to be a little bit more contemplative and deliberate really makes such a huge difference in outcome in so many different aspects of people's lives.

Right. And when you think about it, we're thinking about it from our perspective, we're dealing with a human on the other side too, and they're feeling the same pressures. And since the vast majority of people struggle in silence, most likely the other side is going to feel that same kind of pressure. And I've been in situations where simply injecting a little bit of silence gave me a lot more information that I bargained for. I might not have even been using it strategically in that moment, but it worked. And it's an incredible tool because people feel compelled to fill that gap.

Yeah, I've had situations where I'm mediating, where I've taken notes and I'm just gathering my thoughts, and it's taking me a little longer than someone is comfortable with in terms of creating that silence. So I'm just looking over my notes. I'm not actively trying to elicit more information from the person. And I just get this verbal dump because I've taken 10 more seconds than they think I should be taking in Terms of looking over my notes and the information you get in those circumstances is just astounding and usually really useful and insightful.

Absolutely. And I think really, for a lot of people, they would describe it as awkward. So they get these feelings, oh, this is awkward. It's uncomfortable. Good. It means you're doing it right.

Right. Well, as the mom of two kids, I can tell you the term pregnant pause is a really, really valid term because when you're nine months pregnant, you uncomfortable. And that term, pregnant pause, it's loaded. It's. It's, you know, it's going to bring forth a lot of information if you allow it to develop and grow.

I love it. That's great. And now let's talk about body language. Body language, very critical when it comes to reading people. But now, like you said, the vast majority of your mediations are happening on Zoom. So let's talk. Let's first talk about body language in general, but then let's talk about body language in the modern Zoom era. Does your company invest in professional development training? If you believe that your team would benefit from a negotiation workshop, all you need to do is go to our website, fill out the workshop request form, and then we'll set up a time to chat. These workshops are completely customizable, and we've done them all around the country. Negotiation and conflict resolution skills are beneficial across all professions, but there is a especially useful in procurement, purchasing, sales, sourcing, and contract management. Our calendar is filling up quickly, and we even have some workshops scheduled for next year if you think you might want one. I'd suggest reaching out soon so you don't miss out. Check out the link in the description to learn more. And now back to the show.

Sure. Well, body language is something that I have used throughout my career, both as an attorney and as a mediator, to pick up on senses of discomfort. See if I can figure out whether or not people are receptive to a particular idea or a particular concept that's being floated. Back when I was taking depositions and trying cases, I would look for tells that people were uncomfortable with the answers that they were giving. And those are the times that I would dive in and press more. And it could be something very subtle. And the longer you spend with somebody, the easier it is for you to pick up on how they are feeling when they. They exhibit certain behaviors. So hands and feet are often moved when people are feeling uncomfortable. Which is why, when I was a lawyer, I used to tell my witnesses, if you have to sit on your hands, sit on your Hands, because that's a key tell. Shoulders shrugging and gesturing and all of those kinds of things can also be really useful information, but we've lost a lot of that. Basically, we're looking at the neck up now. We can't really see what's happening with hands and feet, feet and such in the Zoom era. So facial cues and facial expressions are so much more meaningful now than they ever have been because you don't have those secondary cues that you can notice and pick up on out of the corner of your eye. Conversely, however, in the zoom world, you are able to specifically pay attention to a person's face in a way that you haven't been able to before. Lots of judges are saying that they love hearing cases over zoom because they can actually see a witness's face. When you think about the traditional courtroom setup, normally the witness is sitting either usually to the right of the judge. And so the judge may be able to see a profile view, but cannot see a full facial view of a witness. So now when there's an evidentiary hearing going on or a trial occurring, the judge can see the full face of the witness. And they've said it really makes a difference in their ability to connect with people, even though they're doing it remotely, and in their ability to gauge what they believe to be credibility.

Wow, I did not think of that last one. That's really, really interesting, and it makes sense. It makes sense because, like you said, you're getting a better view of the facial expressions that somebody's making. When we think about body language, the book that comes to mind is what Everybody Is Thinking by Joe Navarro, my favorite book on the topic. And one of the things that he says is, like you said, the further away that you get from the head, the more truthful the body becomes. Where you're getting to the hands and the feet, you can see the nervousness and whatnot. And usually when it comes to body language, if people are able to pick up on their own body language and pull back, it's usually something that is in their face, because we lie with our face very often. And now you, as an expert mediator, I would be really interested to see what are those subtle facial cues that you're looking for when you're having a mediation via Zoom?

There are a couple of things. I look right in the mouth area, and so I will look to the sides. And oftentimes you will see that the corners of the mouth either pursing in or quirking up. If someone is uncomfortable or has just Said something that may not be truthful or 100% accurate. So that's one place. The other thing is narrowing of the eyes. That is a real tell for many people. Not everybody. Everybody's different. But I've caught some people in real whoppers when I've noticed that their eyes are narrowing. They can't seem to keep their eyes wide open and lie at the same time.

Okay, now this is great. So you're using this as a tell to say, okay, potential deception. Now, once you recognize that, what is it that you do with that information?

I often will use that opportunity to press the person on whatever it is that they've just talked about. Because typically we're talking the end game of a negotiation. They're telling me that they're at the limit of their authority. They're telling me that there's no way that they can stretch to X. And I can see that that's probably not accurate. And that's when I really start to press on. Well, if we can get to here on the other side, do you think that that would be a possibility? You don't have to answer me right now, but is that a possibility if I can get them there? And oftentimes that yields really fruitful information.

I like that because it's showing you where you need to push a little bit more.

Exactly.

That's great. I forget which book it was. I think it might have been thinking fast and slow. But they talked about if you look at somebody's pupils, the more constricted the pupil becomes, the more it demonstrates that they're thinking. And so with the. With the narrowing of the eyes around there, it shows a little bit more thought. Because if I have $10,000 in the bank account and somebody's saying, we need $20,000, I'll just say, I know, I can't do that. The math there is really simple there. I don't think about that at all. Somebody says, can you do $9,000? Squint a little bit. I'll think about it. No, I can't do that. You were thinking about it though, right?

Yep. No, and the other thing is, a lot of people will touch their faces when they are uncomfortable. They will scratch their head, they will pull on their ears. They will, you know, scratch their noses. They'll rub their hands across their eyes. So all of those things, bringing the hand to the face can also be useful cues that they're uncomfortable in some way. You don't necessarily know why they're uncomfortable, but it definitely can let you know that you're working in an area where they're feeling pressured, uncertain, unsure of themselves in some way.

Yes, and I think that's a critical point too, because in a lot of the times, in a lot of the cases when we're analyzing body language, we don't know exactly what is happening, but we do know that something is happening. And so for me, I use it as a, as a guide for my curiosity. When they were talking, they weren't touching their face before, but every time they talk about Martha or whatever, they keep on touching their face. Something's going on with Marcia. So I'm going to. Let me, let me investigate a little bit more. And so it's really incredible to see how you're able to see that and then use it to guide your approach fluidly in the middle of a really high stakes situation.

Yeah, I love to use it as a guidepost to do really two things. First of all, it can cue me in when the parties are just emotionally overloaded and need a break. And particularly over zoom that occurs more frequently. I like to encourage people to get up, move around, get some fresh air, get some water, at least every hour, if not more frequently than that. Because let's face it, it's, you know, mediation is draining emotionally and physically. And over zoom, it just adds another layer of the drain. So, you know, I encourage people to move around and if I start seeing them touching their face or, you know, giving me those uncomfortable signals and cues, then that's usually a really great time to take a break, even for two or three minutes, just so that they can move around. The other thing that I do is use it to, to dive deeper. As you were just talking about. I start asking them more questions, more why based questions. You said this a few minutes ago. Can you tell me a little bit more about that? Why is this your position? Tell me why. And that really can lead to some great information that can be useful further on down the line.

I love it. That is great. Then with the time we have left, I want to make sure we have ample time for segmentation because I think this is something that's going to be a new concept for a lot of the listeners. And so when you're using the term segmentation in the context of a mediation or difficult conversation, what exactly does that mean?

Sure. It basically means breaking up the conversation into as many parts or as needed to make it a productive and fulsome conversation. So a typical scenario where this will work, and I'm handling on one. Right. One of these cases. Right now is a business divorce. Two partners who are in a situation where they're just not getting along. One wants to stay in, wants to get, one wants to get out of the business. Clearly, when you're separating a business, there are a lot of issues that have to be discussed. How is the new business going to look? Who's going to be on the documents? If there's real estate involved, how are we disposing of the real estate? Is there debt involved? If so, how is that disposed of? Is there going to be a percentage of ownership that remains for the person who's exiting the business and if so, for how long of a period of time, who's getting paid, what? That's a lot of issues to try and tackle in one fell swoop. So in a mediation that is segmented, what we will do is we'll say, okay, we're going to tackle this issue. You know, on day one, we're talking only about this and we'll talk about the real estate for a couple of sessions and then we'll tackle something different in other sessions. And you can either do this one on one with, you know, just one side of the case or the other side of the case, or you can do jo sessions with both sides addressing a single issue. So lots of ways to break it up, but the general idea is let's turn this around into manageable, bite sized pieces of discussion and negotiation rather than one enormous cluster of issues that could get derailed really, really quickly.

That makes a lot of sense and I think it would help to keep the conversation a lot more organized as well. Right, right.

It helps keep things organized and it also helps with that critical momentum. Because as you know, when you're negotiating, the more things you can get people to agree upon, the easier it is to dispose of those issues that are thorny and tricky. So I love to front load the low hanging fruit right off the bat. We'll start talking about the things that there really isn't going to be much fight about and get three or four of those off the table so the parties really feel like they're moving, moving forward. And if you can make those first two or three sessions super productive before getting into the stuff that you know is going to be a real issue, it really builds up some goodwill and it builds up the ability and confidence in the mediator in particular that you're going to get it done.

I like this because I approach my difficult conversations, negotiations, whatever, it happens to be in the same way because of momentum and momentum in conversations and momentum in speaking, sports is almost like this mysterious force that you can feel but not really fully understand. And so can you tell us a bit more about how momentum impacts these conversations in your experience?

Very definitely. If you start a conversation talking about the thing that you know is the most emotionally fraught and most difficult for people to deal with with, you are going to end up never getting past that issue. If, however, you start talking about things that make the person feel comfortable, accepted, responsible, and like they're progressing forward, they're going to gain confidence in their own skills as a negotiator, in their own skills as an individual, and in your skills as the person who's in the middle of that discussion. So building that rapport, creating that sense of trust and community is huge. People want to cooperate. Fundamentally, we know that our survival is linked to one another. And if you can start to build on that common sense of community, then you can really get a long way with even the most difficult of discussions.

I like it. Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. And so now we're seeing how segmentation can work in the mediation world and a little bit in negotiation. Let's talk about in just everyday, difficult conversations with significant others, colleagues at work. How can you use segmentation in those everyday conversations?

Oh, that's a really great question. Well, if you think about a relationship between two partners, usually it's not just one thing that sets an argument or a difficult discussion off. It's usually an accumulation of small things. So for me, it's emptying the dishwasher, loading the dishes from the sink to the dishwasher, leaving dishes in places that, that bother me. And for my husband, it's things like I'm obsessive compulsive, and, you know, I. So we've got these, these small little points of friction that if we let them build up, become a much bigger discussion than it needs to be. Because fundamentally, it's really all about these small, little, little points of friction. And if we segment the conversation into, okay, honey, yeah, I'm feeling frustrated with you today. And here are a few of the. The few of the things that I'd like us to address. You know, we don't have to deal with all of them today, but let's, let's list the things that, you know are bothering me that we need to. We need to fix and are bothering you that we need to fix. Okay. What's the most important to you to address? Right away, you can, you can start to chip away at those list of things that you need to Solve as a unit to create a more cohesive life going forward.

This is really great. And before you go, let me ask you this question because you're very experienced in this. You have difficult conversations all the time. Do you find that your difficult conversations at home are more difficult for you to handle than the difficult conversations at work?

Oh, very definitely. There's no doubt about it. I am capable of having a really difficult conversation with just about anybody who isn't immediately related to me. And as soon as I am in that, that conversation with my 14 or 16 year old or my husband or my parents or sister, all of my training goes right out the window. And I have to really, really, really try hard to center myself and engage in the conversation in a more productive way. I'm nowhere near as effective as when I'm mediating for other people. But, you know, with, with age and wisdom, hopefully comes at least a little bit better job at practicing what I preach.

Yeah, it's so interesting because I remember when I was meeting mediating at the court, I told them and I at the firm that I work for now too, I say, listen, give me the ugliest negotiations and mediations. That's fun for me. Let me get in there. I love that. And then the most simple thing at home, I'm like, you want me to put my plate where the game's not over?

Oh, yes. Yep. No. It's funny, my 16 year old and I had an interesting discussion the other night about televisions and who got to use which television. And I wanted to use one television and he wanted to use the same television. And I sat there and I'm like, this is what a stupid thing to be upset and stressed about. But in the moment it was stressing me out because I had planned out that evening I was going to watch the Bruins game sitting on that particular couch and he wanted to go on the PlayStation. And the PlayStation is connected to that TV. And I'm like, this shouldn't be bothering me, but it is and it's just the way it is.

Well, this has been great. This is fantastic. I really appreciate you spending the time with us today. And before you go, let the listeners know about how they can get in touch with you and potentially work with you too.

Sure. I love working with people from around the country. Zoom is a wonderful thing. It allows me to connect with far more people than I ever was able to before. I can be reached most easily through my website, which is www.marianimediation. m A R I A N I M E D I A t I o n.com make sure you type in mediation versus meditation. It might take you to some very interesting places if you don't get the mediation in there properly. So. But that's a great way to reach me. You can also email me amarianirianimediation.com or you can call me at 617-279-0540.

Fantastic. Well, everybody, we will have links in the description of the episode. Amy, thank you so much. This has been fantastic.

Thank you.

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