How to Advocate For Yourself: Become Bolder, Braver, and Better Paid with Jamie Lee

Hello, my friends, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. This show is produced by the American Negotiation Institute and with over 5 million downloads and listeners in over 180 countries, listeners just like you have made this the number one negotiation podcast in the world. Hi, my name is Kwame Christian and I am the founder and CEO of the American Negotiation Institute. Here at AI, we believe that the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And we are passionate about providing you with the best content that will help you to make your difficult conversations easier, both at work and at home. Lastly, I want to remind you that we offer consulting and conduct trainings both virtually and in person, all around the world. Our focus is in three main areas. First, negotiation and conflict resolution. Second, leadership. And lastly, diversity, equity and inclusion. Check the link in the description below to learn more about how we could work with you and your team. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Jamie, thanks for joining us today.

Thank you so much, Kwame, for having me.

It is my pleasure, my friend. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

So I'm an executive coach for smart women who hate office politics. I help them get promoted and better paid without throwing anyone under the bus.

Oh, I like that. And when you think about the term office politics, what does that mean to you?

Office politics simply means that there is a difference of opinion. When there's conflict, when people have different opinions, people can interpret that in many ways and one of them is often, hey, this is office politics. Especially when there is convergence of authority positions and people having different opinions. Which happens all the time.

Absolutely. Yeah, that's a. It's commonplace, almost impossible to avoid. Which is why your coaching practice is so important. And I know you have a really exciting offer for the listeners too.

Yes. So if you are a mid career woman who wants to get promoted from within and you want to get better paid, I invite you to book your complimentary consultation with me. The link to book that complimentary consultation will be in the podcast description.

Thank you, thank you, thank you, we appreciate it. So listeners, make sure to take advantage of that resource. Again, link in the description. So today we are going to focus on self advocacy in the workplace. And I think maybe, Jamie, one of the best places to get started is just with a, like an operational definition of self advocacy. So what does that mean to you?

So self advocacy simply means that you are expressing, explicitly saying, asking for what you want in your career and that can look like asking for a promotion that can look like saying hard things, sending a tough email where you have to express opposing opinion or even deliver bad news by saying no.

And so it seems kind of obvious, right? If there's something that you want or a barrier or boundary that you want to set, you should let somebody know, just say it, right? And so it seems simple, but there's something that often holds people back. And so in your experience as a coach, what are those things that hold people back from engaging in this self advocacy at work?

So I specialize in working with smart women and I have seen that for many smart women. And I know this also happens for men too. Women are not alone in this, but it's just that my specialty is coaching women. Women often over commit, over deliver under communicate their wants and wins. And it feels comfortable in a certain way, in a certain familiar way that under communicating their wants and wins feels comfortable and familiar, but in the long run, it doesn't create the result that they want in their career. And the, the reason for this is really simple. It's like negotiation, right? In that it feels uncomfortable. So in the parlance or in the negotiation world, we call this anchoring. Telling people what you want and it feels like you might die.

You're right. You're right. It's so funny, Jamie, that you say that, because in my book I talk about that fear of rejection that people have. And so when you think about the fear of rejection from an evolutionary psychology perspective, it becomes really fascinating because when you think about it today, if we're rejected, if we make a request and somebody says no, life goes on in the majority of cases, everything, everything goes swimmingly. The rest of your day, nothing bad really happens. You just take that loss and then you can move on in the majority of cases. But then if you think about early humans, back when we were in tribes for survival, social rejection meant death because you could not survive by yourself. And so the humans that had that fear of rejection were more likely to survive because it promoted pro social and collaborative behavior. Because you know what happens if you get rejected. But now we're in a stage where that same rejection doesn't mean death, but it can feel like death. And that's what holds people back.

Yeah, it's totally normal. It's totally normal because we. And that's because, like you said, we have a human brain that evolved over a long time and a part of us still is in that mindset of like, if I step out of the cave, if I say something different, if I say Something that asserts my individual want and need, then I'm going to be told no. And this can mean, in a way, a social death which psychologists have uncovered can feel even more painful than physical pain.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. This is great. Good. I love when we get to nerd out on psychology for a little bit in these episodes. One of the things that you mentioned in the prep that I thought was a really interesting mindset shift was the fact that self advocacy is an act of service. And what does that mean to you?

Yeah, so this is something that I arrived at in my own journey as a working woman. I just want to give you a little bit of a backstory. I feel like I've had a lifelong training in helping women advocate for what they want. And that's because as an immigrant myself, my single mother, who ended up raising three daughters by herself when we arrived in America 30 years ago, she would always be telling me, jamie, you gotta speak up. You gotta ask for what you want. She was my Monday morning quarterback when it came to these everyday little negotiations. She's like, all of this matters. You gotta speak up, you gotta ask. You gotta be a little sassy, right? And growing up, I pushed back. I didn't like that. I didn't accept. I didn't incorporate her coaching into my own life because I wanted to be liked, right? I didn't want to experience the social debt, right? I wanted. I wanted to be not considered the loud, aggressive vipch or whatever. And there is this common misconception that you asking for what you want is greedy. It's selfish. It's selfish to ask for what you want. And this holds a lot of women and men back from negotiation, power from self advocacy, effective self advocacy. And once I realized in the working world that my mother was absolutely right and that because I hadn't asked for what I wanted, I hadn't advocated I was earning less than the average employee. That's when the light bulb went off and I realized, oh, I really have to learn how to communicate more effectively, advocate more effectively, negotiate more effectively. And over time, I realized that, right? I don't want to do it just for me. If I had to just, like, ask for money, ask for a raise, ask for a promotion, because it serves me. Yeah, I might not want to do it because I'm. I'm like, I don't really need it. I don't want to experience the social death. But as a woman, I realized I needed to walk. The talk I give to other women about, hey, you deserve more. Hey, you can do Better you can get promoted. Because I was the. I became my mother and I started telling all of my girlfriends, hey, you got to ask for that raise. You got to go for that promotion. Now it's my life. It's my job. And I realized, yeah, self advocacy is an act of service because this is how I learned to incorporate the coaching my mother gave me and become who I am now. But I also saw it from a larger perspective when my clients, when women asked for what they want, their bosses were thanking them. They were like, thank you for advocating for yourself this way. You made my job easier. Now I know what you want. Now I know how to support you. Now you've set an example of what is possible for other women and other women of color. Several of my clients are women of color. What is possible? This is great. Your self advocacy is serving us, serving me, your boss, and serving other women. So, yeah, I totally believe that self advocacy is an act of service. If you think it's selfish, just consider how it might be serving you and therefore others.

Does your company invest in professional development training? If you believe that your team would benefit from a negotiation workshop, all you need to do is go to our website, fill out the workshop request form, and then we'll set up a time to chat. These workshops are completely customizable, and we've done them all around the country. Negotiation and conflict resolution skills are beneficial across all professions, but they're especially useful in procurement, purchasing, sales, sourcing, and contract management. Our calendar is filling up quickly, and we even have some workshops scheduled for next year if you think you might want one. I'd suggest reaching out soon so you don't miss out. Check out the the link in the description to learn more and we will be right back after this. This is a really great point, and I will make my first two responses speaking as a former child. So, Jamie, I can empathize with you. I hate it when I find out that my parents were right years later. And then I also hate it when I realize I'm turning. Turning into my parents. So I know this was a difficult transition for you in many different ways, but I really love this approach because a lot of times, especially for people who might, let's say, describe themselves as a people pleaser. I know for me, that's how I described myself. I was always putting the needs, wants, and concerns of others over myself. And so what we're doing here is we're recognizing that by advocating for myself, I am helping others. And it's almost, in some cases, it could Be considered to be more selfish, to hold back and not share what it is that you want and need because you're focusing on your internal emotional discomfort and not how your self advocacy could be serving other people.

Hundred percent, yes.

Yeah, this is great. And so let's say somebody says, okay, Jamie, I'm starting to get it. What is the next step? Because we understand that understanding something logically is very different from absorbing it and then putting it into action. So let's say somebody is starting to make this shift and they say, okay, I can see how this could be an act of service. Now. How do they really start to embody that?

So, as you know, self advocacy is a form of negotiation. And those who prepare always sit themselves up for success. So the first thing you want to do is take stock, assess your contributions more fully and both neutrally. And what I mean by that is when we think that we're going to die by asking for what we want, when we think that asking for what we want is selfish, in essence, we are being biased against ourselves. I have clients, and I've done this too. Yeah, that other person, my friend, my colleague. Yeah, of course they're going to ask. And of course my friend can deserve that promotion and raise. But when it comes to me, oh, not good enough. Right? And this is something that so many people say, even the really smart, competent ones. And so in order to undo the bias that we have against ourselves, I walk my clients to really take stock of their contributions from a place where they're not biased against themselves, where they're not cutting themselves down, discounting their value. So let me give you a little bit more concrete example. I ask my clients, okay, what did you get done? Right, what got done? Because we're very task oriented. We love getting things done. And then ask yourself, because you got this done, what now becomes possible for other stakeholders that wasn't possible before? How does it add value and benefit beyond the immediacy of getting it done for other people? So one of my clients is a mechanical engineer and she's got this MacGyver like, skill to come up with elegant solutions to complex technical problems. And she's like, well, yeah, it just got done. It's just what I do. Big deal. I have so much more to do. I'm like, okay, let's slow down. Let's think about what becomes possible for your company because you came up with a solution. She's like, well, okay, well, the company was able to meet its milestones. The company was able to go back to its investors. And say, yeah, we're reliable company, we can meet our promises. And now the CEO is able to go back to those investors and ask for more money. That's the true value, right? It's beyond the immediacy of what we do. And then I often ask my women clients to think about, okay, so if these were the accomplishments of a friend, then what might you say about the person who's accomplished this? So then what might you say about your friend? And often they'll be like, yeah, she's a badass. She absolutely deserves a promotion and a raise. Yeah, of course, it's not a brainer, it's a no brainer.

This is great. I love this. So preparation is my love language, Jamie. So I appreciate you saying that. Okay, so my listeners have heard this over and over again. Preparation is so critical. And so if you want to download a free guide helps you to prepare for whatever negotiation you have, you can go to americannegotiationinstitute.comguide. you can get access to over 15 free guides. Just general negotiation, salary negotiation, how to negotiate as an introvert, how to have difficult conversations about politics, whatever it happens to be. We have all of those guides there. So make sure you check those out. And those. The link is going to be in the description of this episode as well, Jamie, with one of the things that you talked about just bringing some objectivity that's so powerful. Because if we say, are you good at this? Yes or no? That could be very subjective. And we can allow our biases, our biases that are against ourself and our emotions, our insecurities to creep in because it's too nebulous of a concept. Good, bad, those type of things. But if you are being more objective, saying, what did you do? What was the actual impact? Now it's more concrete. So even though you might be biased against yourself, it's hard to reason against the fact that these facts are objectively in your favor. In psychology, there's a term called habituation. Essentially it's just getting used to something. So for instance, if you're in a room and there is air conditioning that's very loud at the beginning, you'll recognize it. But as time goes on, you'll start to ignore it. You don't hear it anymore. And that same thing happens. And with our skills and the contributions that we're making to the company, because we live with ourselves every day, we see the awesome stuff that we do every day. And so we keep on being awesome day after day. And then we just say I mean, this is just what I do. So it's not as impressive anymore, but from the outside looking in, it's still very impressive. But since we are the person who's advocating for ourselves, we're less impressed with our contributions. And so one of the things that I've started to do is I call it a hype track. So imagine whenever somebody gives me a compliment, what I do is I write down what they said verbatim. So Jamie said this. I write it down verbatim. And so I turn that into an audio. And so whenever I'm feeling any level of insecurity or like, I'm not worthy, whatever it happens to be, I'm like, listen. Okay, Kwame, you might not think you're really smart, but Jamie Lee is really smart. And you remember what she said about you, right? Just listen to that. And so something that people can do, especially right before a negotiation, is they can start to ask their friends and family, people that they respect, hey, what is something valuable that I've done for you? What is something that's valuable that I bring to the company and have them tell you? And so that can make you feel a lot better and give you that ounce of motivation and courage that you need to advocate for yourself in the moment, too.

I love it. I love it. I do what you say. I have a. Here's my notebook. I literally write it down word by word when people give me praise. And I encourage my clients to do the same, to build a brag file, especially when they get praise or compliments from their bosses or colleagues at work. Copy and paste it into a file and keep a log. Yes. This can definitely help you build your confidence. I love the tip about creating an audio file and listening to it. That's. That's brilliant.

Yeah. I call it. It's essentially brainwashing. So I just listened to it on repeat, and I treat it like medication.

Absolutely. And I have to say that so many of us have already been brainwashed by society to think that we're not supposed to ask for what we want. We're supposed to keep our heads down and do good work, and we're supposed to be awarded without us asking. Carol Frohlinger and Deborah Cole, negotiation scholars, they have called this the Tiara syndrome. Right. So the Tiara syndrome is like believing that if you keep your head down and do good work, somebody's going to award you with a tiara. And I used to think this, too, when I was very young, before I realized my mother was absolutely right. I have to Ask for what I want. I kept waiting for the raises and promotion to materialize and they didn't. Right. So just one thing that I want to add. I love the hack about, what should you call it? The brag.

Oh, the hype track. Get excited.

Hype track. Yeah. And some people might hear that and they're like, oh, so do you mean you have to feel arrogant, Build yourself, be full of yourself. And this is actually, again, we're not, you and I are not advocating for people becoming full of themselves and become arrogant, which actually means that you put other people down. Right. But it's like you build yourself confidence by believing and trusting in yourself and choosing your opinion, opinion of you, no matter what anyone else says or does. And this takes skill, this takes practice, and this takes like being willing to give yourself praise, take in the praise that other people give you. And it can feel really uncomfortable. It might feel even as uncomfortable as asking for what you want.

Exactly. And again, to that point, it's not arrogance, it's accepting the truth. And a lot of times people have a lot of trouble accepting the truth of about themselves. And so again, we are filling our brag book or our hype track with facts. With facts. And like you said, when it comes to trusting yourself, trust comes down to credibility and reliability. Do I have the knowledge that is required to do what I'm asked to do and can I do that? Will I do that thing? And so if we keep on reminding ourselves of times where we have demonstrated that competence and put that competence in, into action, and people have been saying that about us, people who are unbiased have been saying that about us, it helps us to again, reinforce that trust. And so we can trust ourselves. And then during the negotiation or when we're engaging in self advocacy, it inspires other people to trust us as well, which makes us more successful in these interactions.

100% yes, cosigned. And I think you touched on something really important, which is that when you're advocating for yourself, advocating for the promotion that you want, which is a process, Right. You want to, just as you said, articulate what is the future potential, how you will add more value, how you will be of even greater service when you're promoted in that bigger role.

Absolutely. Oh, this is great. This is great. And Jamie, there was a word that you've mentioned a couple of times and that is awkward. Sometimes it can feel awkward to advocate for yourself. And I love the way that you said this in the prep. You said, if it feels awkward to advocate for yourself, it's often a sign that you're doing it right. So can you tell us a little bit more about what you meant by that?

Yeah. For the reasons that we uncovered because of our brain, the primitive part of our brain, fearing social death, when we say what we want, set boundaries, there is going to be some discomfort. And people experience this discomfort as anxiety, doubt, fear. And at the same time, your logical, your prefrontal cortex, the human part of your brain, knows that, yeah, I gotta ask for what I want. I have to put my hand up and say, yes, I want this promotion. And so there's going to be cognitive dissonance for sure. Right? There's going to be part of your brain, it's like, oh, my gosh, I'm afraid, what if it goes wrong? And then another part of your brain is like, yes, this is what I want to do. Because I know no one else is going to advocate for me as I can. So it's going to feel a little awkward because of this cognitive dissonance. It doesn't mean that you're doing anything wrong. It means you're doing it right. And I've said this to my clients who took this to heart and then was able to push back on a very pushy boss and say, no, I'm not going to do any more work on this and push back on requests for even more demonstration of value when they had already submitted their promotion case and my client was like, yeah, it kind of feels awkward to say this, but I'm going to say it. The heavy lifting is done right, and get promoted as a result of that.

I love everything that you just said. I think that's great. I think that's great. And we have also have to remember too, on the other side what the boss or the manager is going through. Because a lot of times we make assumptions, but it's not always accurate. And it's so funny for me, doing a little bit of coaching in the past and helping people to go through this, similar to you, I recognize that. Oh, yeah, you kind of have to push through the resistance of the boss. But now for me, having a staff, and since my staff absorbs this information all the time, they have no problem pushing back when I'm making requests or negotiating their salaries or whatever, which I love. And you're absolutely right. It's very helpful for me because they. There. There are blind spots that I have, and sometimes I'll ask for things just on autopilot. And so it's just on a whim. Oh, Jamie, can you get Me this? Or Jamie, can you help me with this? Or Jamie, can you chip in on this project? And it's not until I get that resistance from my, from my, from my staff that I stop and realize, wow. Yeah. I have been giving Jamie a lot of extra work. This is not part of her job description. It should actually go to this person. Or maybe I should do it myself. Or hey, this doesn't even meet our strategic goals. That was me being emotional and operating on a whim. We shouldn't do this at all. Right. And so with your self advocacy, you're really educating the person on the other side. Not just what it takes to be a good manager and not just to your wants and needs, but also helps them to reconsider their own priorities with what they're asking for.

I love. Sounds like you're. I know you're working on this, but you're willing to increase your awareness, right? Your own self awareness, and you're willing to take feedback from people who under around you, above you. I think that's wonderful. Yeah. And exactly as you said. Sometimes bosses, colleagues, stakeholders, they will push back on your ask. They won't always be like, oh, I'm so glad you asked for a promotion. We were just waiting for you to ask for it. I mean, sometimes that does happen. Sometimes they're like, yeah, of course it's your promotion. There it is. But sometimes, yeah, they're like, oh, administrative, bureaucratic. You know, there are these silos inside our organizations and people are jockeying for power. And so, yeah, you know, they go, they go, of course you deserve it, but. And they give you sometimes an excuse, sometimes a valid reason, sometimes just like, not now. Right. Or sometimes managers, leaders are people. And being biased is a human trait. Right. It doesn't make people evil, it just makes them human. Sometimes their own bias gets in the way unconsciously. Doesn't make them wrong. It's just like, okay, this is a problem that we can address. And for that reason, the third thing that I tell my clients get curious, not furious, when met with questions. Pushback, when you ask for what you want.

Yes, let's go deeper into that. Because that is not a natural response in a difficult conversation. So let's go into first, what do you mean by getting curious? And then what does it look like in action?

Yeah. Well, I love that we've been talking about brain and psychology because I recognize that when you are engaged in a high stakes conversation, series of high stakes conversations about your career development, about your raise, about your promotion, our, you know, our Primitive brain is engaged. Like, there could be a stress response. Stress response in that sometimes people freeze up. Sometimes people want to avoid, run away. Right. Flight. Or sometimes they want to put up a fight. I just want to get angry. And this is happening because our brains love to make everything personal. It does it all the time. Oh, the boss said that now is not a good time. It must mean that he doesn't like me, or she's got something against me, or they're not believing in me. Right. So it's so easy for our brains to make all of the pushback means something personal. And that's when we get emotional, when we feel disappointed, angry, furious. And sometimes we lose that objectivity. Or sometimes we shut down and disengage from the conversation. Again, totally normal. But when we're able to see the normalcy in that, when we're able to see that like, oh, yeah, this happened not because there's something wrong, but because we have a normal human brain, then we're able to have awareness. And when we have awareness, we can start to have a little bit more authority over our responses.

Yes. Oh, well, very well said. And I think about the stoic mentality of pause, then respond. Right. So we have a stimulus. We get to choose how we respond to said stimulus. But as we know, the amygdala, the limbic system, gets first shot of interpretation. So whenever something happens, our emotions are going to listen to that and say, you know what? I have an emotional response for you. I know what that's going to be. And to your point, that's usually what lets us take it personally. But what I found is that when I started to study more about the psychology and learn more about it and somebody would respond inappropriately to me, they would get aggressive or they might demonstrate some kind of bias, perceived bias on my part. Right. Whatever it happens to be, I stop and I say, you know what? It would have been actually weirder if they didn't demonstrate this type of behavior. Because humans will do human things. They seem to be a human to me. And this isn't about me personally. Right. Especially if they're having a negative emotional response. It's not about me personally. This is just how the psychobiology works. Okay, cool. I can work through this. And again, when people work with you, they understand that and they start to get the skills that allow them to work through that.

Yes. And one of the quickest, easiest hacks that my mentor, Lisa Gates, and Victoria Pinchana, she negotiates, taught me is just form a W with your mouth when Met with pushback. Right. Or they say something that is basically a no, it's not a yes, it's a no. Right. Instead of getting defensive or angry and saying, oh, does this mean that you don't believe in me? Or, you know, whatever your emotional limbic brain would want to say, take a breath and form your mouth into a W and ask an open ended question, open ended diagnostic question like who, what, how, where, when? So if you want to make it really simple, just ask a question that starts with what. So if they say something like, well, I appreciate you putting the effort to make this ask, but, you know, really don't think you have the right people skills yet. And you could say in response, what would you need to see from me to demonstrate I have the skills required? Or you could simply say, what do you mean by that? Exactly.

I love that. Yes, it's great. And again, what we're demonstrating here is, yes, a really, really great tactic to use in the moment. But also, I really want you all to focus on the fact that these are new conversations habits. Throughout our entire lives, we have been developing poor conversational habits. Usually the defensive response. Taking it personally is our habit. So you might have 20, 30, 40, 50 plus years doing it the wrong way. And so every day you're going to be presented with these opportunities to respond with curiosity. And so something for me and Jamie, I'd be interested to hear from your perspective. I can feel in my body, not just my head, but like my body, when an emotional response is going to come. Like what? Different emotions come from different places. So like that feeling like you're on a roller coaster, that pit in your stomach, like that's one emotion. Tension in my shoulders and back, okay, that's a different response. But I can understand when something inside is shifting. And so now I try to use that as a signal. Okay, Kwame, remember your training. Remember your training and respond with curiosity, just like you demonstrated. So in your experience, when you've been in your own difficult conversations or with the clients that you've worked with, what are some bodily signals that you've been able to recognize that might signal that you are having an emotional response and you should instead respond with curiosity?

Yeah, I think just as you said, the tension in the shoulder, the neck, neck, the leaning forward, your heart starts beating super fast and your breath gets shallow. Anxiety or you just feel the anger rise up. I think for me, what I do is I just take a breath and then I intentionally take a step back or lean back in my chair. So it's like using the body to to get into a more neutral, calm state. And the counterpoint to that is I've also used the Amy Cuddy method. Amy Cuddy is the Harvard social scientist who talked about the power pose. And she found that when people take two minutes before a high stakes conversation to private space to strike a power pose where you stand tall, take up space so that there is air underneath your armpit and your legs are wide apart, you just hold that pose for two minutes. It can help you get into a more confident mindset. So I love that you brought this up because it is possible to use our bodies as a way to channel a different state of feeling. Absolutely. Yeah. And what I do in my coaching practice is I also help my clients raise their awareness around the different emotions and how they show up inside their own bodies so that they can become more aware of their emotional state and be able to notice the thought pattern that triggers a certain emotion. And if they want, and if it helps them to shift to a different mindset so that they can shift to a more neutral, more calm or grounded place and eventually to curiosity, this is great.

This is phenomenal. And I know there are some people out there that are saying to themselves, man, I wish I could just work with Jamie. I wish she was doing some kind of complimentary session that I could get started. Oh wait, you are. Can you let the listeners know again about that?

Yes. So if you are a mid career woman who wants to get promoted and better paid, you want to build self advocacy skills, you want to become more self confident as a leader, I offer a complimentary consultation session where I will walk you through these steps individually and custom fit them to your specific situation. And if there is a fit, then I will support you in making a decision about whether or not to work with me. And the link to book that complimentary hour long session is in the podcast description.

Fantastic. Jamie, thank you so much for joining us, my friend. Really appreciate it.

Thank you so much for having me. Kwame.

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