How to Avoid Leadership Burnout: Tips by Jan Rutherford

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. Thanks for joining us today. With over 10 million downloads and listeners from more than 180 different countries, it's dedicated listeners just like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of of the American Negotiation Institute. Now, before we get into today's insightful conversation, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives. Have you ever found yourself wishing that you could navigate those high stakes conversations with more confidence? Or perhaps you're looking to empower your team with the art of persuasion and conflict resolution? At the American Negotiation Institute, we've crafted specialized keynotes and workshops tailored for those very needs. We've transformed the negotiation skills of professionals worldwide, and we're eager to do the same for you. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And our goal is to help you improve your lives and the lives of those around you, one difficult conversation at a time. Don't let another challenging conversation leave you second guessing. Click the link in the description to discover how we can help you find confidence in conflict, negotiate better deals, and have stronger relationships. Because in the world of business, every conversation counts. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview.

Jan, thanks for joining us today.

Hey. Hey, Kwame. I'm glad to be here. Thanks for having me.

My pleasure. This is me returning the favor, my friend. So it is great to have you. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Well, you said it's returning the favor because you were on the leadership podcast. So for those listeners out there, they need to make sure they see that episode with you. It was all about me questioning you. But my background, I've got some military experience. I've got a whole bunch of business experience in big companies down to small companies, a little bit of academic experience teaching MBA students in the US And Ireland. And I've done what I'm doing now, my life's work for the last 10 years, helping develop leadership leaders that really believe the best way to grow their organization is by developing their people. So that's what I get to do. And I do it through coaching and speaking in workshops. And a couple times a year, I do these little things called Crucible Expeditions, where we take executives out in the wilderness and pair them with military veterans and make magic Happen.

Wow, that sounds awesome. And it sounds intense.

Yeah, it's fun. This year we're going to Moab, Utah, and we'll be in the slot canyons. And those slot canyons were made famous by the guy who cut off his arm, you know, because he went in the slot canyon by himself and a boulder fell. But those canyons are really narrow, so it's not like you just walk into them. You know, you gotta move and crawl and, you know, position yourself. And we're taking a big group, 20 people, so it'll be a big group in there. And so a little bit of rappelling and rope climbing and all that. So can't wait. And that's in May, and hopefully we'll all be vaccinated by then, too.

Fingers crossed.

Yeah.

Well, this is great. And this episode is going to be focused on the busy professional. And I know you have a lot of experience working with these busy professionals. And I know people are listening to this podcast saying, hey, I'm a busy professional, so you're at the right place. And so the three main things we're going to address are, first, the fact that you are not paid to be busy. The second one, stop doing your old job. And then lastly, do what only you can do, which I think is my favorite one, because now we're talking more about, like, career strategy, which is cool. And of course, we're going to talk about how negotiation and these difficult conversations will factor into all of these things. So you could have a more fulfilling career, be less busy and, I'm assuming, get more done.

Yep, exactly. You're spot on. So let's. Let's dive in.

Let's do it. So when you say we aren't paid to be busy, what do you mean by that?

We confuse activity with results. When I entered the work world, there was this whole thing called FaceTime, and it was very important. FaceTime meant you got there before the boss, you left after the boss. It was really important for the boss to see you at your desk working, because if you were there, that meant you were dedicated, you're committed, you are loyal. They didn't have the means by which to really evaluate your impact, the output, the outcome of your work. So what they valued was your work ethic, this old Protestant work ethic thing. And so over a period of time, we've confused that busyness with actually getting stuff done. Nobody pays you to basically be busy. They pay you because they believe there's going to be a return on the investment, and it's up to us to basically help people understand, hey, I am providing more value than I cost. Value doesn't mean time and facetime. Value means output. And so part of that is making sure that expectations are aligned with the powers that be, the boss when it comes to those things. But none of us are paid to be busy. We're paid to produce results, to perform.

Absolutely. And Jan, you've probably seen this too. Sometimes when somebody says, hey, how are you doing? The natural response is busy. I think we both said it at the beginning. And what you recognize is that sometimes people wear busyness as a badge of honor. So you hear a conversation and somebody's like, oh, I'm so busy, I have to do xyz. And then somebody pops out of nowhere and says, oh, you think you're busy? Well, guess what I have to do. But they're not focusing on results like you said.

Well, I encourage everybody. Go out there and search Bill Gates Warren Buffett calendar and you'll find a little two minute video clip. And it's basically Bill Gates laughing at Warren Buffett for having nothing in his calendar. And Warren Buffett goes on to say, look, I'm the richest guy in the world. I can buy anything I want. I can't buy time. I need white space in my calendar to get stuff done. You know, one of the things that I do once in a while is I put everything on a paper when I'm feeling really busy and I put on, hey, here's the big projects I need to get done. These are deliverables. And then over here it's like, these are the things that don't have a deliverable, but they're going to move the needle. Everything else that's in my calendar and all the to do list, they're going to take care of themselves. I'm going to be busy. Stuff's going to come at me and I'm going to have to address it. But the way to move the needle is to make sure I work on the deliverables I have that have deadlines, basically workshops and things for people. That's what I do. And then the big things that move the needle, like write the next book, produce the next video, create content, you know, that kind of stuff. Again, this is what helps me. I'm not saying that's going to work for everybody, but it keeps me focused because the busyness, that will take care of itself. I don't have to worry about being busy. I have to worry about saying no to things so I can work on work that matters.

Absolutely. Yeah. And so I know the listeners are probably saying, listen, Kwame, Jan, this is great information, but what does this have to do with negotiation? Well, listener, I'm glad that you asked. Here it is. Because what we're recognizing is that we might have this conversation with ourselves. We recognize, okay, I'm busy. I can be more productive. I can focus more on results and pull back. But we don't exist in a vacuum. There are going to be people around you putting things on your plate, and a lot of times they might not even recognize just how much they're overwhelming you. So when it comes to that busy professional, let's. Let's have a conversation about creating those boundaries with the people around you.

Well, yeah, I mean, you call it boundaries, I call it aligning expectations. So Maria, you know, Maria has an expectation of, you know, you're going to give me workload, I can manage, and I can get done in X amount of hours a week. You have an expectation. Like, I've got so many ideas. I've got all this. You know, part of what happens is we are so busy, we don't take the time to say, hey, is Kwame and Maria on the same page? And I just had a conversation with someone today, and I said, you know, getting your people on the same page at the beginning of the year might take three hours. Three hours. Who's going to take three hours? Like, don't take three hours now. See what happens. You know, you take 10 minutes and see, and then 10 minutes and 10 minutes and 10 minutes, and you're constantly throughout the year. Whereas if you start at the beginning of the year and you say, let's get on the same page, not only Maria, here's what I need to get done, but what motivates you? What drives you? Why do you want to work here? What do you want out of it? Then we know how to tap into that, because aligned expectations create commitment from everybody versus mere compliance. And I think that's the question to ask when we look around the people, hey, is everybody around me committed? And they're passionate. They have drive and curiosity. Are they just doing it, you know, got to get through to Friday, you know, and that's up to us as leaders to create an environment where people, you know, really can thrive, including ourselves. And that's the thing. Oftentimes leaders are really bad at taking care of themselves. They put everybody else first. But again, it's like the oxygen thing. You're not taking care of yourself physically, mentally, emotionally. You're no good for the team. Sorry. You're just not, you know, and during this past year, Holy moly. You know, you got to really do some self care or you're going to be a basket case. So. I know we sound preachy, Kwame.

Well, I hope people are receiving the message. That's what's important here. And you're absolutely right. And the word that you said that. That's really reson. Resonating with me is commitment. Because we think about it in terms of negotiation. We're always trying to get commitment. And so you. You distinguish between commitment and compliance. Right? Tell us more about that one, because that's really interesting.

Well, I had a boss once asked me, and he's a dear friend and I work with him to this day, you know, he said, hey, Jan, your team's doing great. Let me ask you, can you go on vacation? I'm like. And he goes, well, let me ask you this. If you were stuck on an island, would you be the leader? And I said, no, they would eat me. Because. Exactly. You're riding them hard and they're performing, but they're not committed. If you take your foot off the gas for one second, it's going to all fall apart. This is not sustainable. You need to figure out how you create a team that's committed and can run without you hammering on them. You know, that's just not sustainable. And that goes back to pace over this last year. I mean, anybody that's tried to run their team at 90 or 120 miles an hour knows they've burned them out. It's kind of like climbing a mountain. You can't take the same pace up the mountain the whole time. In the steep parts, you go slower. Sometimes you rest. Somebody needs to has a blister. They need to take care of it. You know, the pace adjusts. You just don't head off. Or if you do, you turn around and the whole team spread out all the way down the mountain. And then the team's not accomplishing the goal to get to the top safely altogether. And isn't that what business is all about? You know, get to the objective, accomplish the objective safely altogether so that you can do the next objective. Because unlike a mountain climbing, you know, you climb a mountain, you come down, you're done. In the business world, there's always another mountain. We. It never ends. We're like on the an Appalachian Trail that goes for around the world 10 times.

Hello, my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question. Have you ever Wondered how to elevate your team's negotiation game and how you can help the folks on your team have better, difficult conversations. At the American Negotiation Institute, we offer transformative keynotes and workshops and tailored to empower professionals with top tier negotiation and conflict resolution skills. Whether it's a keynote for your next event or hands on training for your team, we've got you covered. Don't just negotiate. Master the art with the American Negotiation Institute. Click the link in the description to find out more. Elevate, negotiate and succeed.

Yeah, it makes sense. And what I'm recognizing is this, because we all have this feeling of busyness. Leaders, their team, everybody feels busy. And so there's going to be an initial negotiation that has to happen with the person in question saying, hey, we need to have a conversation to align our objectives, right? So first I need to get the person to feel comfortable having the conversation, getting them to allocate the appropriate amount of time that's necessary to have the conversation. That's a separate negotiation in and of itself.

Yes. Well, it's such a great point. And the way that that conversation even starts, gets teed up is critical because oftentimes, you know, somebody's going to come to that conversation defensively on guard. And part of that is because part of the environment is fear. It's not safe. And leaders need to be cognizant. I spoke to a guy that I coached today and, and the first thing he said was something about the CEO. Everybody's afraid to upset the CEO. There's a lot of fear in the organization. Well, we know, especially in sales, the worst condition a salesperson can be in to go out and sell and create demand and develop relationships is to be scared or fearful or feel all kinds of pressure. I mean, we know for those of you that have kids out there on sports teams, you know, the coach that berates the kids isn't a good coach. The coach that is positive. You know, the reason there is a positive coaching alliance is because positive coaching works. I mean, it doesn't change when we become adults. All of a sudden we want to be, you know, have the snot beat out of us. You know, nobody signs up for that. Oh, I want to go work in a hostile work environment, you know, where I'm berated and never appreciated and get no recognition for any of my work. That's crazy. So I, I had a boss. His name was Buzz. Buzz was a great boss. And I remember saying, you know, Buzz, you know, I'm not, you know, kissing up or anything, but you know, why do you think you're so good? And he goes in a southern accent, Jan, that's easy. I just help you get what you want. You'll help me get what I want. And it was. It was so true, you know, I mean, if you really understand what drives the people around you, I mean, help them and, you know, don't worry about the reciprocity. It'll come.

Yeah, well, let's. Let's not gloss over this, because I think really what you've described is an effective win, win negotiation. Right. I help you get what you want, you help me get what I want. But a lot of times, leaders don't take the time to figure out what it is that their employees want.

Exactly. Yeah. Well, it's kind of like, I still can't believe to this day, the quotas come from down on high to salespeople. Because here's what would work way better, you know, hey, Kwame, how much do you want to make this year? Why? Oh, I want to buy a second home. I want to put my kids in private college. I want to pay off bills. Oh, okay. What do you think it's going to take based on what happened last year? Oh, well, I'm going to need to work harder or I'm going to need to work smarter. I'm going to need to call on the right people or have a better message or something. Okay, well, what's that look like? Quarterly. What's it look like? Monthly? Weekly? Daily. Oh, simple. Chances are, if you did that, what the person saying they're going to do is way more than a quota. And it's the little things that add up to the big things. But what we do is we come to Kwame and we say, okay, Kwame, you did good last year. Here's you need to do 23% more this year. Do it. Make it happen.

What?

You're behind. It's February. You're behind. You know, you got to make it up in March. And then, you know, how do you think you're going to perform all year long? You're going to come, you know, come toward the fall. You're going to, like, I give up. I'm looking for another job. As soon as I get my measly little bonus in March, I'm out of here. You know, that's what happens.

That makes so much sense, so much sense. Again, I love that collaborative approach. And let's. Let's say we do these things. We start focusing on results, and then your boss says, wow, you're doing really? Well, congratulations. You get a promotion. That leads us to the next part where we're talking about, stop doing your old job. And again, I think this is something interesting. I don't think anybody who's come on the podcast has talked about this. So tell us what you mean when you're telling people not to do their old job.

Well, the higher up you go, the less you're paid to do, and the more you're paid to think. Let me make it simpler. Managers are paid to do things right. Leaders are paid to do the right things. Now, no matter where you're at in the pecking order, the hierarchy, the higher up you go, the more you have to do actually less, because you've got to. Really, the higher up you go, the more it's about clearing obstacles and providing resources and making sure the direction and the pace is right. It's not making sure all the details in the minutia. All of us have experience with a boss who was in the weeds. We all have that experience. And if you're getting feedback that you've been in the weeds, I guarantee you're going to have a whole bunch of excuses why it's okay. I don't feel comfortable delegating. Whose fault is that? You haven't developed the people underneath you. I could do it better than they could. Well, why haven't you passed on that knowledge to someone and taken and slowed down to train them? Now, when you're doing your old job, here's the most important thing is you're not doing your new job. There's a whole bunch of things that you're not doing, and that's not fair to the people that you're supporting, and it's selfish because you're in your zone of comfort. My old job, you know, part of what makes a new job a new job is you're going to have to develop new skills. You're going to have to come out of your comfort zone. You can't do the old job. And oftentimes when I'm coaching people, they'll go, oh, I know, you're right, you're right. And a lot of what I do is I help people understand, okay, you know you're here. You know you want to be here. You know you want to spend your time in these areas versus these. What do we need to do to cross that chasm? And part of it is saying no to things, and part of it is developing people, and part of it is creating space in the calendar to think. And that's hard for People not to be busy. And I often say, you know, one of the things the analogy is we all love. Well, not all of us. I don't love to mow my lawn, but when it's done, I like to look at the lawn that I mowed. I like to see those little lines and feel good that I made the lawn. The higher up you go, you don't get to mow the lawn anymore. A lot of what you're going to do, you're not going to see the results for weeks or months or years. Those days are, those days are over. You're like, instead of mowing a lawn, you're creating a whole new neighborhood. And you're in the period of getting permits to even create the neighborhood. You're not decorating houses and hanging curtains. You're trying to figure out how a street's going to go in and the sewers and everything else. That's what we do as leaders. The higher up we go on a day to day basis, you don't get to come home and dinner and go, well, I got a lot done today because it might not feel like that.

Right? This is great. I'll tell you, Jan, whenever I have the leadership professionals coming on the show, I'm saying, man, this is turning into a personal coaching session. Because as NI grows and we have a bigger staff team of contract trainers, I'm finding myself more in that, that role of like strategic thinker and not as much doing. And I actually, I tell my team daily, I tell them, listen, there are going to be times where I'm going to encroach on what you're doing. You need to tell me that I'm doing that. And I think it's important too as a leader to create that relationship that has psychological safety so they can talk to you when you are falling back into your old habits.

Yeah, yeah. And the really hard part, I mean the easy part about being an executive coach is I get to just help work on people's professional development. The hard part of being a business leader is you have to do that and get people to produce results. In my role now, I don't have to worry about people producing results directly. You know, the outcome of my work should be that they produce better results and that the investment in coaching paid off. But the hard part of a business leader's job is you got, or any, even a nonprofit, you got to do both. You have to develop your people. That's a long term investment. And then you have to produce results, a short term yield and that's the thing. That's everything about leadership. There's a balance, and there's no such thing as a perfect balance. You know, there's. You know, we kind of are here, and then we've got to swing it to the side. And that's the part if you don't take a step back to realize, where are we at with things? Where do I need to focus my time? I have a quick story I've shared before. A lieutenant was engineer, army lieutenant was building a bridge with his men, and it was men at the time. And, you know, he gets down there in the mud to show him that he can, you know, he's strong and he can do it. And the colonel comes and he goes like this to the lieutenant, takes him up the hill, lights a cigar, starts smoking, doesn't say anything to lieutenant, and lieutenant knows he's in the shade, and all his men are sweating their butts off down in the mud and building this bridge. And all this time goes by, and the colonel says nothing. And all of a sudden the lieutenant goes, you know, we should have. And the colonel goes, exactly. And he gets up and walks away. Guess what? The lieutenant put the bridge in the wrong spot. He had to then go down and say, man, I'm sorry. I screwed up. You know, bridge should have been over here. Now, did the men appreciate that he was willing to get dirty, or would they rather have had a leader that stood save them three hours of work? You know, so, you know, it's. It's just such a great story because we've all been there. You know, we haven't gone up on the hill and figured out where should the bridge be. We've gone down there and started working. And, you know, and again, it's selfish because the lieutenant went down there because he. Because of his pride and ego, and he wanted to be liked. That was selfish. If he went up on the hill at the very beginning, they might have said, oh, what a lazy sob. That would hurt my feelings. But that's what a leader does, you know, hey, I'm doing what's best for the team, not what's best for my pride or ego. And that's hard because we all want to be liked, you know. But you know what? That's not what you sign up for as a leader. Being liked, you know, hopefully comes over time from the respect that they trust you. Like, I know he's sitting up there, but, you know, he's gonna. He's gonna. He's not gonna do like that other lieutenant. And we're gonna have to double back and redo all this work.

Oh, that was a great story. I love it. And what it's telling me though is that yes, they're going to be external negotiations with the people around you, but before we even get to that, we're going to have to have negotiations with ourselves. Right. Because they're going to be some difficult conversations we have to have internally in order to over. In order to overcome these, these challenges of the ego and our desire to get down in the mud.

Yeah, well, you know, the three pillars of self reliant leadership is lead yourself, lead others. You know, interpersonal skills, lead the organization, which is a lot of what we're talking about at the higher level, the cause and effect. But the more and more you talk about leading at the organizational, the strategic level, you realize this is really about me leading myself. This is about me being self disciplined, me working on what's essential. I mean, this is really, the work really is here. You know, that's where the work is for the organization. You know, that's why it's so interesting to study historical figures like Churchill or Abraham Lincoln or, I mean, I mean, everyone knows they were deep thinkers, that they took a lot of time to reflect and they were methodical and they were measured. You know, our society, there's. There's nothing methodical or measured these days about anything. Everything's. You know, I was on a call today and they were like, so you're going to get these things every day at this time. And if you're going to, if you want to be in the newsfeed, you got to respond like basically instantly.

Yeah, I'm getting those too. It is stressful.

Yeah, well, you know what I'm talking about. We won't name, but that's almost impossible to do good work instantly and thoughtful. I get what they're doing, but that's catering to everything instant instead of something that you might write that might appear in the Atlantic. Very thoughtful piece or something. Again, it kind of goes back to, you know, for whose good do you serve ultimately? I mean, I think that's a quintessential question to answer as we get out there is, you know, hey, I like this industry, I like this role. I like that, you know, it's, again, it's all about me. But the real question ultimately to anything that we do is we're serving man and womankind. I mean, that's what we are doing. And the more that we know who's good we're serving, the more we can be focused. That was a real epiphany for me as I started my business is really figuring out who are my services for and let me focus there and not try to be everything to everybody. And I think we serve ourselves better when we know who it is we're serving and what we want that outcome to be makes sense.

And when we think about who we're serving and how best to serve them, I mean, that, again, perfect segue to that last point, when you talk about doing what only you can do. And I think that's a really unique and powerful strategic move. So tell us more about that one.

Yeah, I often say that especially to CEOs that are doing their old job, like, so what is it that only you can do that you cannot delegate? And normally. Normally, as an example, they'll say two things. They'll say, well, ultimately, it's to make decisions on the strategy, you know, the direction of the organization, and I need to have a hand in developing the people to uphold the standards of the organization. It really goes back to answering, what business are we in and not in, and how do I uphold the standards of the organization? That's at the CEO level. But we can all do that. You know, for you and I, Kwame, the thing you and I can't delegate is creating content. You know, I mean, we can have people help us, but, you know, part of what people pay us for is to be thought leaders and to have a unique perspective on our areas of expertise. So if we're not spending time to create, you know, we're not really serving, you know, those that we call our clients, you know, because we're so busy delivering. And that's, you know, again, that's. That's the balance. And everybody can feel that. They're all, you know, so important. But, you know, the thing is, the answer isn't more hours, you know, and just piling in more hours and squeezing things out, and then we're way out of whack and not balanced, and we lose our energy. We've got to really decide, what is it only I can do? And it's hard. I mean, as a small business owner, again, the more you delegate, again, the more expenses you have because you have to invest in other people. The same at work. In a big corporation, you might not be affecting your own pocketbook, but what you're really doing is you're giving up control. And that's the hard part, you know. And again, I've had more than a few conversations with people that say, yeah, I've got some control issues. And when it boils down to it is what the real question is when somebody says they have control issues is what are you afraid of? What are you afraid will happen? And again, it goes back to selfish things. I'm afraid this will affect my reputation, make me look bad, you know, all these different things. And, and again, you know, the only way to get trust is to give trust, you know, kind of. I'm sure there's a negotiation tie in there.

Absolutely. Yeah. I call it reciprocal vulnerability. Right. So if I'm willing to open myself up to you, share, rely on you in different ways, then it makes it more likely for you to do the same thing. You know, it's, it's, it's validating to have somebody's trust. And so again, you're right, that reciprocation will occur. And what's tough, especially for leaders, is that oftentimes we have to be the first person to be vulnerable in the situation. And it's. When we, when we think about ourselves as business leaders, we were often very results driven. We want to think we, you know, this isn't a good thing. But like we've been discussing, we create scenarios where we're busy and doing things a lot. We don't think about slowing down, opening up, being vulnerable, being trusting as the keys to business success. But in many ways they are, especially if you want to be an effective leader.

Yeah, well, that's always the key takeaway from our crucible expeditions is you have to slow down to speed up and. Because when we do these expeditions, there's no cell signal, you know, and people come out after four days and they're like, ah, look at, and they're scrolling through their phone. All these things took care of themselves. Isn't that interesting? I didn't need to intervene. But what they end up doing is getting clarity and, and not just about work in their professional life, but they get clarity about what's really important in their life and are they spending the time in the right areas. And it's, it's deeply, you know, it's a deeply personal thing. And, and again, you know, without that reflection that, that time, then, you know, we have no idea if we're heading the right direction. You know, when, when you learn how to use a compass, you know, for navigating out in the, in the wilderness, you know, you set a heading and then, you know, maybe you pointed at a tree and you walk to that tree and then you do it again, you know, and you adjust, but you're Constantly making sure you're on the right direction. And when you get to the tree, you have to. We call it shoot an azimuth. You have to get the setting. You don't shoot one azimuth, you know, that's five miles away, and just start going up and down the mountain and think you're going to get there. You have to stop all along the way and reevaluate. Am I in the right pace, the right direction? Oh, there's a big creek in the front. I can't go straight. I've got to go around. Then when I go around, I've got to re. Make sure it's the same thing. You know, you wouldn't, you know, but what we do in the business world, we shoot one azimuth and we just go. And then all of a sudden, a year or two later, we're like, we are way off track. Holy moly. This isn't where I wanted to be. Right, right.

Yeah. It makes so much sense. And I think goes back down to, like you said at the beginning, creating that white space in our calendar to stop and assess where we are, where am I, where's my team, where are we going? What's the business, current status, all those things. But we rarely take the time to slow down and so we can get off track without recognizing it.

Yeah, Yeah. I tell you, one of the things I've learned over the last year during this crazy year is if I have more than four hours booked in a day, it's literally too busy, because then I don't have time to deal with all the urgent things and things that come at me. But if I've got four hours of meetings and coaching that I do and things, then I've got a good four, whatever hours to deal with the urgent stuff, to work on the big stuff. But again, it's a discipline thing, and it's hard. I mean, I had a client today say, hey, we got to move the meeting. Can we meet on Friday? I blocked Friday to do this stuff. Nope, sorry, I can't. I could, but I won't, because this will never get done. And there will always be that last thing that wants to intrude on that. And in an organization, in a corporation, it's hard. It's way harder to do that and to say no to things because there's so much pressure. Hey, can you move this around? Can you meet. This is a CEO. He or she wants to meet with you. It's really hard to push back. But like you said at the very beginning, if we don't establish boundaries at the beginning and help people understand, then we're going to train them. You know, that we're a doormat. We will be a doormat. And the only person we'll have to blame is that person in the mirror.

Absolutely. I think that's a great place to end. Coming full circle. And before you go, you have to let the listeners know again about the podcast and how to get in touch with you if they're interested in learning more about your resources and your trainings and coaching.

Everything is on self reliantleadership.com the podcast, what I do on LinkedIn, the expeditions, lots of cool, fun videos. And again, I want to thank you, Kwame. I'm a huge fan of what you do. You were one of the most fun guests we've ever had on the show, and I'm just glad that you're doing what you do and sharing your gift with the world.

Thank you. My pleasure. And everybody, we'll put links in the description for Jan's website and a link to the podcast episode we did, too. Jan, my friend, I appreciate you coming on and sharing your wisdom with us.

My pleasure. Thanks, Kwame.

Congratulations. You've just joined an elite club by listening to a full episode. You're now officially on the Negotiate Anything team. So welcome aboard. What most team members do is they subscribe to the podcast because that allows them to automatically get the latest episodes of the show. The best things in life lie on the other side of difficult conversations. Keep learning, keep practicing, and keep getting better. Your relationships will improve, your career will soar, and you'll have the content confidence you need to get the most out of these crucial conversations. Again, thank you for joining the team. We're excited to have you, and I will see you in the next episode. I'll catch you later.