How to Avoid Salary Negotiation Mistakes With Kate Dixon

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. Thanks for joining us today. With over 10 million downloads and listeners from more than 180 different countries, it's dedicated listeners just like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of of the American Negotiation Institute. Now, before we get into today's insightful conversation, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives. Have you ever found yourself wishing that you could navigate those high stakes conversations with more confidence? Or perhaps you're looking to empower your team with the art of persuasion and conflict resolution? At the American Negotiation Institute, we've crafted special specialized keynotes and workshops tailored for those very needs. We've transformed the negotiation skills of professionals worldwide and we're eager to do the same for you. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And our goal is to help you improve your lives and the lives of those around you, one difficult conversation at a time. Don't let another challenging conversation leave you second guessing. Click the link in the description to discover how we can help you find confidence in conflict, negotiate better deals, and have stronger relationships. Because in the world of business, every conversation counts. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview.

Kate, thanks for joining us today.

It's great to be here.

It is great to have you, my friend. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

So I'm a salary negotiation coach and I'm also a compensation consultant. So I've been in corporate corporate compensation for most of my career. I'm also a professional certified coach and I really love to help people get more of what they want in their salary negotiations.

That's fascinating. Okay, so I've never heard of a compensation consultant. So what does that mean?

So I help companies from startups to Fortune 100 companies decide how to pay their people. So what I'm focusing on right now is anti oppressive pay, which is kind of a new field where we're looking at the systemic impacts of oppression and how they impact individual pay and how to remove them. My company just became a certified B corporation and so that, you know, we make commitments to the community, our employees, society at large, and the environment. And so I'm working with some other B corporations to lessen the oppressive effects on their pay program. So that's super Fun for me.

That's great. And probably very rewarding, too, I'm assuming. Yes, that's great. Fantastic. So today, what we're going to do is we're going to talk about the biggest mistakes that people make during the salary negotiation. So the listeners, they're familiar with these types of episodes. We've had a lot of people on talking about salary negotiations, and what we usually do is we tell people what they should do, but today we're going to focus on what they should not do. And so, Kate, how could you set the stage for us when we think about the mistakes without getting into the specifics? We'll get into that in a little bit. But why is it so important for us to understand what not to do during these conversations?

You know, I think it's important because it's such an emotionally charged conversation, and we all want to do our best in this area because it can have implications for us for our entire career. So I really want my clients to do a great job, and knowing where some of the icebergs are really can help.

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And yeah, I love the Titanic reference, because if you make these mistakes, they could certainly sink negotiations for sure. This is great. And you know something else, too, is that the worst types of mistakes are the ones that you don't even realize that you've made, because a lot of times negotiations can fail and you don't know why, and then you go and you make the same mistake again in your next negotiation. So awareness is going to be good for you, not only in these specific negotiations that you're having in this moment, but also down the road. So you can course correct and understand what went wrong. So you can do what the right thing in the next instance.

Yeah, absolutely. And we learn a lot about salary negotiations from, you know, friends and family. And, you know, there are people who really don't know what's going on inside of a company who are giving people advice on this topic. And, you know, it can be really outdated or it can be, you know, just not a cool way to do this stuff. But, you know, I've. I've had a ton of experience on the other side of the table, and I also know how pay programs are designed and things like that. And so that's one of the ways that I can help my clients situate themselves in a better way and help avoid some of these mistakes.

Yeah, this is great. Yeah. Because it's possible that the people who are giving advice have been making these mistakes too, and they just didn't know It. So this is good?

Absolutely.

Part of our mission here is to end the proliferation of bad ideas. So this is great. Where should we start? What would you say is the number one mistake that you see people make in these conversations about compensation?

Well, it's hard to pick a top one. I know we're going to talk about more than one, but if I had to pick the first one, I would say, don't take things personally. When people take things personally, that's one of the biggest mistakes. And you really have to look at it as a business problem that you're trying to solve collaboratively. Right. I mean, this is not. It's not about you. And the way that companies pay people really isn't about the person at all. It's how much they value the work that you'll be doing for them. And so it's normal that different kinds of companies might value that work differently. And so you just have to remember that it's. It's really a statement on the work and not a statement on you as a person. And it's really hard to get that emotional distance. But when you can, you can be a lot more effective 100%.

Because if you start taking things personally, then you're losing that perspective. And then you'll probably respond emotionally. And oftentimes our emotional responses are not the appropriate responses for the negotiation. They might feel good in the moment. Don't get me wrong. They feel great, but then you have.

That or it might feel terrible. I mean, that's the thing.

That's the thing. You're kind of don't know. It's random in that situation. Right. Because sometimes the emotional response can. Can feel good. It could be cathartic in the moment, and then the ramifications are down the road. Or maybe it feels bad in the moment, too, or maybe you get lucky. And so I think it's really important to recognize the difference between an emotional thought and a rational thought in the moment. And so it's easy for us to just say, okay, good, next one. We won't take things personally. On to the next idea. But it's easier said than done. Right. So what advice do you have for people who say, well, Kate, thank you, but it's hard for me not to take things personally. How do I actually do that?

Well, and it is hard for everybody, but if you can really recognize the fact that this is. It's a business problem that you're trying to solve, that's one way. I also advise my clients to think about negotiating on behalf of somebody that they like, but maybe not their super best friend, but somebody that they think is. Is great, you know, so if I were negotiating on behalf of you, you know, I would advocate for you, I would be firm, but. And I would want a great outcome for you. But it's not. It doesn't impact me in quite as personal way. And I think that's the mindset that if you can get into that, it can be really generative, 100%.

And so I think about it, for me as a lawyer, I think about the times when I was representing clients. It's an interesting phenomenon because they can say things that are offensive about the situation. But since I have that distance, I can handle myself. I can think about several times in negotiations where I was with my client and they said something that I knew that they would take personally and I was just texting them. Don't say anything. Don't say anything. Just let me handle this right. Because I have that objectivity, I have that distance. And it is a really powerful mental trick you can play on yourself to say, all right, I'm not Kwame, but I'm going to negotiate on behalf of Kwame. Right. Or Whitney, my wife, or my brother Kobe, or whoever it happens to be. But I put that other person, I kind of other myself in that situation. Gives a lot of perspective.

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It does. And it's going to feel better to you too, when you can get that emotional distance because you become less reactive and it kind of builds on itself. Once you start getting a little bit of success with this, then all of a sudden you know you're going to calm down a little bit and you're going to be less emotional and have less emotional reaction. So it's kind of a virtuous cycle.

Absolutely. And Kate, one of the things that I've done in the past in negotiations to get a little bit more emotional stability in the moment is take some Time finding the ability to pause. And so for people that are having these conversations, sometimes it feels like it can happen so fast and you don't have time to respond those type of things. What advice do you have for people as it relates to finding ways to slow down so you can find that stability and respond appropriately?

Well, I think one of the most important tools that we have in salary negotiations is silence. So I recommend that when you make your requests, make a request and then be quiet. Don't try to jump in and fill that space because that's. We're kind of socialized to do that. It's like, oh, silence is bad. Silence is not bad. And you're not trying to trick the other person, but you want to give them a moment to process what you've just asked for and really allow them the opportunity to respond. If we just jump right in. Oh, well, if you can't do that, that's okay. That's one of the things that we commonly do in these situations. But silence can really help in giving you space. And just like in interview kind of situations, people don't expect you to be, you know, boom, boom, you know, talking over each other and rapid fire kind of sitcom, you know, deal. You know, that's, that's not normal. And so taking a moment, being deliberate, and if you need some time, ask for time. All of those things are absolutely okay to do in salary negotiations.

Absolutely, absolutely. I tell you, one of the things I like to keep in mind is you're going to make more mistakes by going too fast than by going too slow in these difficult conversations. You know, the other thing is you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube. Once you say certain things, you can't pull it back. Right?

Yeah, yeah, it's true. Although, you know, sometimes I have clients who are asked at the beginning of the process what their salary range is that that they're expecting. And then they give a number and then they get to the end of the process and they're like, oh, man, for what they're asking me to do, that's not enough. Or they see the, the package and the, you know, bonus percentage is less than what they're getting now. And they, you know, the number makes sense just in its own thing, but it doesn't make sense in perspective to the entire package. And so that tends to be something that people are like, well, I can't put the toothpaste back into the tube. But one thing that you can do is if you get into that situation and you're at the end and you know, hey, this, the numbers that I gave you don't feel right anymore. You can, you can just be open and honest and say, hey, you know, based on what the company's expecting of this role, I need to revise my, My expectations higher. Or, you know, I'm noticing that these elements are not included in the package, and my going in assumption was that they would have been. And since they're not, I'm going to need to ask for a higher base pay. So, you know, yes, you can't unsay stuff, but you can mitigate a little bit.

Yeah, you can always recover. And I think this is a, this is a really good point that you made here. Really important point. Because a lot of people will avoid having the conversation entirely because they're so afraid of making a mistake that they say, you know what? The best way for me to make, not make a mistake is by just not having the conversation, which is the biggest mistake that you could make.

Yeah, and it totally is. And one of the things that we know from research is that most people who are in salary negotiations and make a request get something. Now, they may not get every single thing that they asked for. They may not get as much as they were hoping for, but it's the numbers like 80%. And so why not, why not ask? I mean, if you don't ask, you're certainly not going to get anything. But. But if you do ask, you might get something. And something is better than nothing.

Exactly, exactly. And one of the things that you brought up, let's flow into this one, is how do you handle it when they ask for your compensation requirements or what you hope to make or what you made at your last job, those type of things. I want to get your thoughts on how to handle that. And I think before you say exactly what to do, if you could kind of set the stage and tell what's at stake in this very moment, I think that would be a great way to start.

Yeah, well, you know, what's fascinating is that more and more states and local governments are prohibiting the salary history question, which I think is really good, because what we know is that it advantages people who have had advantages in the system and it disadvantages people who have had disadvantages in the system. So it tends to perpetuate some of the things, you know, the inequalities around pay. So, you know, don't tell people what your salary history is, you know, unless it was like gigantic and you're trying to match it at the new one. I don't know. I still wouldn't say what your salary history is unless you can not avoid it. But. But what. What I do like to have people do is kind of shift that. Even if it's not illegal to ask in your state, just say, you know, hey, I'd love to share with you my expectations. And one of the ways that you can do that is by basing it in research, which you need to do. You need to go out. There's tons of sources on the. On the web. You know, just put in a search engine, you know, project management, salaries, you know, and salary.com has great information. Glassdoor has information about the company that you're going to be interviewing with. There's just tons and tons of places that you can get good salary information. And, you know, sorting through all of that stuff is probably another podcast, but once you get it, you know, base your ask on what you're seeing. So the way that I encourage people to ask is my research shows that jobs like these make between X and Y in the marketplace. And based on my awesome experience or whatever you want to say, but based on my thing, I'm targeting the higher end of that range. How close can we get? Right. And I could break that down for you if you want, but the whole thing is designed to help people really understand. A, you've done your research. B, you've got a range. So you're giving them a number of different ways to be successful with you in the negotiation. You're giving them a target, you're targeting that higher end. So that's where you're anchoring them is to the higher end of that. And then the last pieces. How close can we get? Again, this is a collaborative approach, which is something that I really recommend, because I think a big mistake people have is treating salary negotiation like a cage match, which it's super not.

Yeah, this is great. And one of the things that I like about your approach there, Kate, is the fact that you've given people something to actually say, because I think that's one of people's fears. They say, well, what if they ask me that question? What do I do? Just say no. That's what weird. Like, how do I. How do I respond? But you've actually given a response that is. That's reasonable and strategically sound in the negotiation as well.

Yeah, but, you know, some people just can't. They just. They get, like, super vomity about it. They just can't deal. Right. And so if you can't face the idea of doing your Research and then anchoring things. You can also ask them, you know, hey, without knowing more about your total rewards package, it's hard for me to give you a number. Could you share the hiring range with me? And a lot of places will, in some states, it's required to have it on their job descriptions. And for some kinds of companies, they are absolutely committed to putting salary ranges on there. Some places will, you know, maybe be a little bit shy about giving it to you, but most, most of them will, you know, you want to make sure that you're in the same ballpark. This is not really, you know, them trying to do a mind game with you or something like that. They just, everybody wants to know, hey, are we playing in the same pool?

Absolutely. Yeah, it makes sense. And, and again, this is one of those, I call them inflection points in these difficult conversations. The. The entire conversation is important, but not all parts of the conversation are equally important. And this is one of those times where it's very, very important that what you do or do not do at this stage can have a significant impact on the outcome. And so I really appreciate the fact that you've given people practical advice with the words to actually say in order to get the most out of it.

Yep. Well. And, you know, honestly, you know, I love the inflection point idea because this is an important piece of the conversation and because people know it's important, they get all freaked out about it. But, you know, do your research and get familiar with what needs to be said. Practice it, because practicing it out loud is super important. You know, I know that I sound amazing when I practice in my mind. Right. But just like, getting those words out into the open is really important, even if you just practice it with your dog or whatever. But you really need to speak them out loud.

Absolutely. Yeah. It's so important. It's so important. And when you think about role playing, this, how. What tips do you have for how people should actually do these role plays with a friend or a partner or whoever happens to be.

Well, you know, I love the idea of kind of thinking about the different scenarios that could happen. So if you make a request for a higher base pay, which is one of the most common things that I see, people negotiate, right. They can either say yes on the spot, which is very unlikely. They can say, well, I don't really know about that. I'm going to have to check with the hiring manager. That's the most likely scenario. Right. Or they can say, no, it's not happening. We're not negotiating. So it would behoove you to practice how you're going to respond to all three of those things. If they say, you know, if they say yes, if they, you know, say they have to talk to somebody else, what are you going to do? How are you going to, how are you going to respond? And just practice each of those three scenarios.

This is great. This is great. When you think about mistakes that people make typically, what are some other things that come to mind?

One that I, I hear more with women than I do with men is this idea of giving away your power in order to be perceived as nice. So I had this client who, I mean, I just love this client, and she was negotiating with her dream company and she'd done some really great things along the way around, talking to them about base pay and everything. And she got the offer and she said, well, you know, the offers, the offer's really good, I'm just going to take it. And I'm like thinking to myself, well, why hire a salary negotiation coach if you're not actually going to negotiate? But you know, we talked about different scenarios, what are the different pieces? And you know, it turns out that she was really concerned about a sign on bonus because she, she wanted to, she was moving her family and there were some costs that were associated with the move that were not covered in the relocation policy and all that kind of jazz. So she decided she was going to focus on base pay and you know, wasn't really confident she was going to get anything. But then also on that signing bonus. And so she talked to them and asked for the base pay and they said, geez, you know, we can't move any more than we've moved already. But with sign on bonus, they were willing to move that very significantly multiple five figures for her. And so she wound up, I think it was quadrupling her sign on bonus. And she would have just left that on the table had she not asked. And so again, she wanted them to think that she was nice, which is great. And one of the things that you are doing in the course of your salary negotiations is you're showing them what kind of an employee, what kind of a leader you are. So the way that you conduct yourself in these negotiations is going to have an impact on how you're perceived in the organization. And if you just give up all of your negotiation power and don't ask for anything, or if you're really difficult and try to negotiate 27 things which, you know, spoiler alert, don't do that, you know, they're going to look at that and go, this is the kind of person that we're hiring. And if you're professional, collaborative, you know, you're looking at this a bit impersonally. You're really going to make a big impression on the people that you're negotiating with. And trust me, HR people do talk. They talk to the hiring managers. They let them know when they've seen something particularly impressive or, conversely, not so awesome right now.

It makes a lot of sense. And again, this is one of those things where we say, all right, cool, Kate, I'm going to do that. I'm going to ask. But then the negotiation comes, but I'm terrified and I don't do it. So this is one of those things where it's another emotional barrier. And so what advice do you have for people when it comes to overcoming that fear of asking for what they want in this particular negotiation?

Well, you know, I think for me, I really do believe this, and I share this with all of my clients, is I think negotiation, salary negotiation is good for everybody. I think it's good for the candidate. I think it's good for the company. Because when a candidate comes in and does a salary negotiation with the research, with the practice, and feels really comfortable about asking for things, they feel like, you know, they have to know what the package is. They have to really understand the package to do a good negotiation. Right? So that's one thing that's helpful to the employee, but it's also helpful for the company. They want people to know and appreciate everything that's going into that offer. Right? So. And when people step in to negotiations and have a sense of confidence that they have represented themselves well, that also is a great way to enter a company. Now, again, you're not always going to get them. You're not always going to get exactly what you want, and that's okay. But if you've advocated for yourself, you're going to feel fundamentally different about that offer an opportunity than you would if you just said, I'm just going to take what they're giving me.

Exactly. No, I agree. I agree. And I see we're coming up on time here, so I want to give you one more. What is the last mistake that you want to discuss today that people make in the salary negotiations? Hmm.

I think the last one would be don't accept an offer on the spot. I think that's. That's something that people want to do. You know, they've been through in many times, a very rigorous interview process and it's very emotional and they just can't wait to get to the finish line and they just don't want to deal with emotional stuff anymore. But you rarely will have the power that you have for negotiation that you do when you're a candidate. And so by not taking advantage of this and not doing that hard work, you know you're giving up a lot. And again, even if you don't get anything, I do think that it's an important thing because you're showing the company again who you are and that you self advocate, that you do your research and that you care about this stuff, that you've actually read what they've given you and that you're articulate in terms of the way that you ask for things. So I think all of those things combined, it's a win win thing. Negotiate your salary every time. The only time that I recognize recommend people don't do it is if the company say, says at the forefront. We're not able to negotiate the salary because you're in the training program and we're paying everybody the same. Even then I would still try to negotiate for like a sign on bonus or something, but. But don't accept the offer on the spot. Just don't do that.

Yeah, I agree. I agree. And I think that's a great note to end on, Kate. I really appreciate it. And listeners, I know you're probably saying, wow, I wish we had more. Well, just wait. Hopefully we can have you back on Kate, because I know there are a lot of other things that you can talk about. You literally wrote the book on it, so we'd love to have you back. But before you go, can you remind the listeners about your book, your company, and how they can get in touch with you?

Absolutely. So my website is Kate Dixon, K a t e d I x o n.org and if you want to get in touch with me, infoatedixon.org is great. My book is Pay Up Unlocking Insider Secrets of Salary Negotiation and that's available anywhere books are sold, at least online. And I do coaching, I do all kinds of different things and I would love to hear from your listeners.

Fantastic, Kate, really appreciate it. Thanks for coming on today.

My pleasure.

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