How To Be a Leader and Persuade Others: The Science of Influence and Negotiation With Jade Davis

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. Thanks for joining us today. With over 10 million downloads and listeners from more than 180 different countries, it's dedicated listeners just like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of of the American Negotiation Institute. Now, before we get into today's insightful conversation, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives. Have you ever found yourself wishing that you could navigate those high stakes conversations with more confidence? Or perhaps you're looking to empower your team with the art of persuasion and conflict resolution? At the American Negotiation Institute, we've crafted special specialized keynotes and workshops tailored for those very needs. We've transformed the negotiation skills of professionals worldwide, and we're eager to do the same for you. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And our goal is to help you improve your lives and the lives of those around you, one difficult conversation at a time. Don't let another challenging conversation leave you second guessing. Click the link in the description to discover how we can help you find confidence in conflict, negotiate better deals, and have stronger relationships. Because in the world of business, every conversation counts. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. All right, Jade, thanks for joining us.

Hey, thanks for having me, Kwame. I appreciate it.

Yeah, man, it's great having you and it is great to have you in person, listeners. It's been probably like two or three years since I've actually done a podcast in person, so this is crazy. It's really cool. So, so, Jade, how about you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?

Oh, well, thanks. First, I can, I can say I've known you from way back when, so I think we'll, we'll start with that. But, you know, long way from Ohio State and so I'm proud to see what you doing and, and, and seeing, you know, where you and your family have came in that time. So I knew it then, I'm glad to see it now.

Appreciate that.

So, Jay Davis, I'm vice President of External affairs, the Port of Cleveland. And I oversee our government affairs, communications, marketing, energy projects, offshore wind ESG projects at the Port of Cleveland, and then also our philanthropic giving. And so that ranges from everything from, you know, small micro grants and things like that to, you know, six figure grants. That we give to organizations and communities around the Cleveland area that are working to improve quality of life. Prior to the port, I worked in k Street in D.C. and for those aren't familiar with public policy and government, I was a lobbyist in the electric utilities industry. And then also prior to that, during my time where I worked in the same atmosphere as Kwame at the Ohio State House and Public Utilities Commission when we were both younger and I had much more hair. So I have been at the nexus of public policy, business and politics for my entire career and just recently finished at Harvard Business School and I'm an alum there now and focus a little bit more on my leadership and organizational development aspect of my business school journey and sort of I feel that it rounded out my career preparation for this point as I go into this sort of halftime of the career right now.

Yeah, no, this is great. This is great. And so listeners, you can see why I want to have Jade on the podcast. Just an incredible depth of experience too. And one thing that you didn't mention, I want to make sure you get a, get a shout out too for the public affairs company that you and your wife have as well because that entrepreneurial background will inform the way that you negotiate as well.

Yeah, yeah. Both of us have families with some deep entrepreneurial roots and we started Thornton Buckeye Group, it's my wife's company and literally we started in Washington D.C. when we were living there 2014 as a way in order to help some of our friends with developing their political strategies and who were some running for office, some working at companies in which they were tasked with finding out more information. And it has now morphed into right now it's the largest female, African American female owned public affairs firm in Ohio, based in Cleveland, clients all over the country. And you know, I've seen my wife do a lot of this more full time than me, but I serve as a senior advisor and help out especially a lot of energy and political campaign strategy, things like that that we may help with some clients and. And she focuses a lot more on the coaching, the policy strategy, everything from helping clients do engagements with DEI to help clients doing engagements with getting white papers and developing public policy, managing lobbyists at the state, federal, local level and all those kind of things. So it's a full service public affairs firm and we're proud of it.

This is great. This is great. So I think we have set the stage for your life and really what we're going to do is we're going to use your Professional career as a case study for different negotiation and persuasion endeavors. And so the focus of this episode is going to be on how to get to. Yes, essentially how to persuade as a leader. And so when you think about your approach to leading and managing and moving people from one position to another position with your communication style, what would you say is your ultimate goal in every conversation?

You know, I would. I would say depending on what the. What. What role I play within this negotiation it is to get to. Yes. Especially if I am. If I am managing up and I'm talking to my CEO and we're trying to figure out what to do, he may have a different opinion, or he or she may have a opinion. And I am trying to figure out how do I maintain my role, autonomy and all those kind of things while still making sure that I'm delivering what's needed. And that's just more of a. As you get a little bit older and get into your career, you start realizing that ego counts a lot less and causes more issues than actual doing and execution and all those kind of things. And so staying focused on that is critical. When I manage laterally or to subordinates, is making sure that they're experiencing me as a leader, as a colleague, in a way that leaves them feeling heard, transparent, and what is needed, that they have direction that is actual direction and not just a task mastering that they have, that they feel whole from the interaction and that I could be vulnerable enough to convey what it is that I really need to get done, what the vision really is for this task, and being vulnerable enough to receive things and be able to pivot if needed. Sometimes you're just wrong. And that's just the key. And that's just something that I've seen. For a lot of people, that could be the hardest part of their professional journey of just being told, like, well, you're not the brightest, you're not the smartest. You don't know everything about all these intricate things. You're great. But just like Jordan, Jordan won with Pippen and Grant and Rodman and all these other people, that's still my goat. But I don't know if our goat get six rings without having these other great compliments and around him of people who. Who are great in their own right. And I'll tell you, just being in leadership and things like that, a lot of this for me was forged. And I had a boss tell me a long time ago, I was like, well, how do you know how to do these things? How do you know how to do These things like, well, because I screwed them up. And when dealing and working throughout my early career.

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Learning to lead by being willing to be a teammate first and foremost really helped me become to take the next step, to take the next step in my leadership journey. And what I had to realize too, in my own right, like, it was good. It was great. I had traversed pretty well by my mid-30s and had hit all the markers, you know, as far as titles, pay, you know, autonomy, all these kind of things. And I found myself thinking like, okay, what's next? And if, if I can't see what's next, why? And I remember my wife sat me down, was like, well, maybe you're not ready for it. And you know, you know you married the right person when they can just be brutally honest for you. Honest to you and shout out to Crystal Davis, my, my wife, 10 years now and next month in August. So. But we had this conversation and I remember sitting there like, okay, okay, okay, babe, I got you, all right, I got you. But I'm still thinking like, no, no, no, I'm great. I'm good at what I do. I'm good at what I'm thinking. I'm sitting there thinking this, I'm sitting there thinking this. And, and she told me, you know, a few months later we're having the same conversation. She's like, well, until you realize that what got you here isn't gonna get you to the next level. And I'm like, what are you saying? Like, well, what got you here was good. Like, it was great. But what's gonna get you to the next level is development of something else. And for me, that development was making sure that I could lead and I could be a teammate in a very authentic and vulnerable way that allow people to really understand, like, what my motivations are.

This is great. This is great. And there are so many interesting things that you said that I wanted to dig into, I think.

Let's dig.

The first interesting thing was somebody in the Cleveland area admitting that Michael Jordan is the greatest of all time. I think that was fascinating, but that's for a different podcast.

I'm of that generation. Yeah. You know, you see Black Ish and see Andre Johnson's shoe closet. I have plenty of Jordans in my shoe closet, so. And I think a lot of guys, whether we're die hard cast fans or not, growing up, we all had, we all wanted those Jordans and wanted all one of the jerseys and all those kind of things.

Yeah, it's hard to shake. It's hard to shake.

Yeah, it's hard to shake.

But I think one of the interesting things that, that I loved about this was you talking about the conversation with Crystal, your wife, because one of the things you mentioned before was managing egos. When you're managing up, when you're talking to the CEO of your company, you have to manage that ego. But in that conversation, she had to manage your ego. And it took time too, because she planted the seed in a conversation and then a few months later, she revisited that conversation and challenged you again. And the thing that led to that, that massive leap in your career was accepting that, being more humble and then recognizing that even though you are great at what you do, the next iteration of your career is going to be about leadership and the connection that you have with other people and the ability to motivate, inspire and persuade other people. And so your ability to kind of check your ego in that moment is what led to the growth that allowed you to be a better leader.

I, I, you captured it even better than what I just said it. To be honest with you. I think what, what happens oftentimes in a lot of organizations, a lot of families and things like that, throughout the early part of your career, you're very much like the, like the hot, the, the folks that really progress quickly are the doers, are the executors, are people who get like, I had a couple areas where I was a subject matter expert and I was able to go and do it. And I was, I was consistent, reliable in those things. And it allowed me to get other opportunities and to progress. Okay, that's very different from executive leadership to where you're not doing as much, as much as you are facilitating information to, whether it be your board or whether it be investors or whether it be other colleagues and the various trade groups and things like that. And you are, you're so you're facilitating that kind of communication. To them internally and externally within your folks. And you're managing processes, you're managing, you're sitting down every day, probably a couple times a day, dealing with, okay, what is this division doing? Are we hitting our KPIs there? What is that division doing? Are we hitting our KPIs there? Why or why not? You know, what can we continue to do better? These are questions you're asking now. And you still have doers who are going to be future leaders, who are going to be sitting in that seat someday, who are, who are executing those things and getting those and hitting those KPIs or trying to figure out why they're not and adjusting and things like that. What we sometimes fail to do is that when I had got into leadership position, I was coming out of a doer mind frame. And so I'm leading as a doer and I'm leading people who are also doers. And I'm saying, okay, let's get this done. Like, we got it like hella high water, let's get this done, let's get these things done. This is how we got to work, this is how we got to do. And it's like, well, I'm not quite sure, I'm not quite clear on that vision. I'm not quite clear on these things. I'm not quite clear on that. And a lot of organizations and individuals and me included, had a hard time, you know, for about a year and a half or so of my career thinking like, well, am I good at this? Am I right at this? Am I, am I leading us to the right place at the port? And it was when I realized with the help of, of Crystal, that, well, your role is different. It's still about getting to the goal, but your role and getting to that goal is very different now. And those things, you know, are the things that really help organizations take that next leap or maintain being a well oiled machine. And that's why, you know, small organizations don't struggle with it as much because you can see it, you get larger and larger, it becomes harder and harder to spot because, you know, success is great, everybody wants to be a part of it. But it's just like I tell kids all the time, like, you know, you can look at LeBron James and like, I want to be LeBron, I want to be LeBron. But are you willing to do those, to shoot those 2,000 jump shots a day when you're 14, 15, are you willing to, to put in all that kind of work even now that you don't see just to. Just to get to that 48 minutes on the court. Those kind of things is, is sometimes those are. Those are things that are missed, that are critical, are critical. So even you can have very talented people, very, very good product that never quite reaches its full potential because of the disconnect between these stages of leadership and the stages and how that changes.

Yeah.

Just like my CEO has a very different role than I do as well. And if you would go and just plot me or one of my other colleagues in the VP level into that seat, if we don't realize that, probably gonna be in that seat long. But everyone else suffers as well within the organization.

Absolutely. And I've heard it described as the leadership lid. Like you cannot, a team cannot, or it's very difficult to outperform the quality of the leader. And so your team will grow and advance as you, as the leader grow and advance. And one of the things that you mentioned there was. You've mentioned it a couple times, actually. The role. Understanding your role and especially understanding the shift where you were before versus where you are now and your role relative to other people. Because even though you're going to be authentic through all of your conversations, your approach is going to change based on who it is that you're talking to, what's your role, what's their role, what's the interaction of the role.

Yeah.

So how do you maintain your authenticity in these conversations, even though you might adjust your strategy based on who it is you're talking to?

One of the main things about maintaining authenticity is just having a real. Having a real curiosity about who people are, how they got there, where is it that they want to go. So it's not a single person that's going to be on a team that I lead that I'm not going to try to find out, like, what is your goal, what do you want to do? Where, how did you get to here? And. And those things will tell you a lot. And. And I remember, and I do that because young or very early in my career, I appreciated people that did that because it allowed me to ask questions and get feedback about things I didn't even know to ask about. And it allowed me very simple things. Like when I first started working at the State House, I thought I was going to be involved in more like just purely urban affairs issues. And when I started talking to folks that were in the caucus and doing policy work, they were like, well, you know, what is it that you. What's your background? And things like that have you thought about energy and tech and you know, sort of forward looking things like that that could really help deal with some of those urban issues in which you was thinking of which I was thinking about which jobs and availability and quality of life and all these kind of things. And it allowed me to think like, oh, I can affect those things maybe from a, from a place where I'm more interested in and from a broader perspective by, by pivoting to that. And they end up, it ended up providing me with a career path that has been great for me and has been joyful for me. It's because I've had a, I had a clear, dedicated interest in trade and shipping and energy and utilities and, and all these kind of things. I work well on a daily basis now and, and so one thing I'm trying to do is make sure that if I'm, if I'm dealing with, if I'm talking with folks on my team, where is it that you've been, where is that you want to go? And with that you can understand where people use that simple questions. It's just asking the question sometimes like, you know, where do you feel you'd be best utilized? Was the thing that gives you the best joy? And some, some of that is whether it's a consultant or that's in, that's external or that's working with you or internal employee. Sometimes you can, you can develop your best talent within the organization and other places right under you by saying, hey, okay, if you really want to go to law school, I really want you to sit down with our legal counsel and begin to map out what that looks like. And when we're doing policy papers, I really want you to focus in on, you know, where do you think we, what do you think we may have issues at in regulation or in legal and things like that. And then be that liaison and you gain loyalty, you gain respect, but you also gain a sort of ease of working within the organization where people are okay, are okay. Now to admit like, okay, you know what, I may have not delivered on that I may have been wrong.

This is good. This is good. So let's go back to early in your career when you were utilizing that curiosity yourself. Because what you're finding, and you correct me if I'm wrong on this, Jade, you're finding that even though you had a very clear perspective on what your value add would be focusing on urban affairs, when you started to have those conversations with other people, you started to realize that you could still fulfill your life's goal. Your mission and all of those things while still being interested in the trades in energy and those types of things. Right. And so you were able to make a minor tweak, but still, it was in alignment with your overall goal. Right.

To be honest with you, early on in career, and not even early on career, throughout life, you only know what you know. You only know what you've been exposed to.

Yeah.

You only know what is relative to your experience. And so for a lot of folks, when you're, especially if you're like me, you know, you're a first generation college student, you're, you're. You get out of college, you work a little bit, go to grad school, you get, okay, now I got this job. I am like an adult now. And it's like, okay, I know these things. I'm going to go do these things. And it's like, well, have you ever thought about this? Have you ever thought about that? And part is from. Because I had leaders who were willing to have those conversations with me, and I was able to produce very good work and have very good relationships. I still have now. But the key is I didn't even know that's what I needed until it was given to me. And I don't know if my experience would have been as fruitful for me or, or the organization or them if I wasn't. If they weren't those kind of leaders and not. And so I, I admit that being as, as fortunate of having that. But what I try to do is make sure, you know, people feel fortunate for having the opportunity to engage with me on that level. Now, again, I'm not saying that I'm the good leadership guru, and I'm gonna. I'm not you, Kwame. I'm not gonna write a book about it. I'm not. I don't see myself at that level yet. But what I do see is that I know that firsthand, being able to provide people space to grow is just critical. It's critical. And that's where you see it now in job markets where people don't feel like they have a space to grow. You know, and I hear some folks like, well, people don't want to work hard, they don't want to do this, they don't want to do that. Well, you know, there's. Everything has to adapt, and you can't adapt until you're actually sitting down and figuring out, you know, you know, what are you adapting to? And that's something that I'm trying to make sure I continue to do. Whether it's entrepreneurially, whether it's professionally within our. Within our organization.

Yeah, no, this is good. This is good because it kind of goes back to what you said about vulnerability, too, because for everybody in the conversation, there's a benefit to vulnerability, because if you're vulnerable now, you're feeling safe enough and trust the other person enough to actually share forthrightly the information that people need to solve problems. And so it takes a strong relationship with the people on your team for them to be vulnerable enough to share that information with you, especially if you're their leader. But oftentimes, we as leaders have to set the stage by being vulnerable, like you said, admitting sometimes when we're wrong and sharing our goals and our vision very clearly so they can see where they fit into it. And then also with the example that you gave about the person who wants to go to law school, for example, you're saying, okay, see, I was thinking about putting you in this direction, but that doesn't serve you and your ultimate goal. You can still help us in our organization by doing this, which helps you because it helps you to gain those legal skills that you'll need when you go to law school. And it helps us because we need researchers to do this research.

Right.

And so you're getting to. Yes, like we talked about. But you're open and willing to be flexible and work collaboratively with the. With the people on your team through these difficult conversations. And it starts with that vulnerability.

Yeah. And it's. It's one thing that I wish I would have developed very early on in the career, heck, even in college, of just having to be in a vulnerability. You know, go back to the early aughts. You know, I show up to college, FUBU shirt, fake Cuban link chain, all this kind of stuff, you know? You know, hey, people could laugh about it, but I know if we go pull out those college IDs from the early, early 2000s, it'd be the same thing for many of you folks. But I didn't think that was. There was a space and a place for that, for just asking these questions. So I'm at the school, people from all around the world on a football team, playing with guys from all over the country. And very few times my first two, three years, I just sit down, ask me, like, so, you know, what is your family? What are you looking to do? Like, what are you. What are you. Why are you majoring in this? Or why are you majoring in that? And so one thing that I'm talking with My nieces and nephews about always have is like, hey, continue to network, but don't just network just to get to know folks, like get to know who they are and all those kind of things. And I think that that is something you have to sort of learn because I'm not quite sure that it's something you may have to unlearn of not connecting with people, because I'm not quite sure that's something that's being taught. It's not going to be taught in school to connect with people on that kind of level. And for a lot of families, us included as parents, you know, you're trying to make sure your kids are very set on being the best versions of them. And you know, connecting with other folks on a deeper level is very much like not a top tier issue when you're raising them. And so that's something, I think that the connection piece is just critical. And I'm not saying, you know, sit down and tell folks, you know, your darkest, deepest secrets or nothing like that. What I am saying is that being open to having a conversation about the person that wants to pivot to law school, being open to conversation, a person's like, you know, this is just not, this is, I will, I see myself in your position one day. How do I get there? And don't take it as a threat, but take it as okay, this is opportunity to develop the next wave of leadership. And I'm a firm believer that the more people you develop and the more people that you help along the way, it is, it could be very, very beneficial to you in your journey as well, the more allies you have. Because that person may not take your position at your, your organization, but they may go take a similar position at another organization which then you can partner up with or you can leave and go to and you know, have all these kind of things, all kind of different aspects of that. And so I think it's just keeping the connection and being open to the connections.

Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. And being open it, it's much easier said than done. And like you said, yeah much you have to unlearn that previous. I would say a lot of times it's self preservation because we just, we see the risk of sharing. I heard one of my previous podcast guests, Austin Hill, he said, he described trust and vulnerability. Really interestingly he said with. When you're being vulnerable with somebody, you are giving them the keys to your own destruction and hoping they don't destroy you. And I mean, when you think about that level of gravity, that's, that's pretty significant, you know, and like you said, you're not always sharing, sharing your deepest, darkest secrets, but you do recognize, like, hey, if I open myself up, there is some kind of danger if they take it the wrong way. But you have to take those small incremental risks. And I think about them almost like relationship tests.

Yeah.

Can I trust you with this? Oh, you pass the test. I can trust you with a little bit more. And then as you keep on doing that, you deepen the relationship. And then those difficult conversations that we talk about all the time on the podcast become a whole lot easier because people are sharing information and genuinely working together to try to solve the problem, make things better.

Yeah. And I think. And when you talk about vulnerability, I mean, some of it is just, it's just being honest with folks. I don't have the answers here. I don't know. This is sort of outside of my previous experience. I may have to go back and do some more reading. There's all these kind of things that are going on within every day of a project. I just had a critical conversation with my CEO last week about some things that we had to get done, some decisions we had to make as organization. And he was very honest and said, hey, I don't know, like, I need you to figure this out for me and help me and help me, you know, get to this. I gotta trust you in this. And those are kind of things. You're right. Yeah, it's giving them the keys and things like that. But we've been working together now for six years and I'm quite sure it would have been six months if he felt that he could not come to me and have that kind of conversation and get an answer that is going to be fact based, that is going to be rooted in truth and, you know, fit within the con, fit within the goals of the organization, the great organization. Those are all things that I think are necessary though, because you can't do it alone. As good as we think we are, you just can't do it alone. And I don't want to take NBA analogies to, you know, real life, but oftentimes you look at all these like championship dynasties and things like that, you know, I'm not the LBJ hater that some folks are. I think LeBron James is going to go down the end of the day as one of the, you know, greatest all time. He's a top five player. No, no, no doubt, hands down, all time. But people say, well, he he needed so much help. He needed so much help. And I'm looking around like go through all these dynasties, go back to the 40s and 50s, like hall of Famers galore on all these teams that won three, four, five, you know, six titles. These weren't just, you know, this weren't YMCA guys that were out there with one star. This is, this is not how it works. And so if you have a great organization, a great product, all these kind of things, there's probably a lot of stars. There's probably a lot of people that could be CEO, you know, a lot of people, there's a lot, a lot of people that can be vp. There's probably a lot of people that can be a senior director, director, manager, all the way down to greeting at the front door. There's probably a lot of people that can do those things within that organization. But the organization is someplace worth being. That's what you need. A lot of people that are willing, that can step up if need be.

Exactly. And to that point too, even if you could do it all by yourself, you wouldn't want to because it would be exhausting and unpleasant.

Would you enjoy it? Would you have enough, would you have enough left to enjoy it, to see it? Those are all kind of things. You know, I think those things are, look at the Apple journey, look at the Microsoft journey. I mean, talented, bright people were involved with all of this from, you know, for years and decades. And not everybody was, you know, you know, Steve Jobs or you know, Bill Gates. But there was a lot of people who could have been, who were involved with this. And some of them left and went and did other great things. Some of them stayed and did great things, some of them went and did low key things that were critical. You know, when you start talking about other algorithms or other smaller companies and tech companies and things like that, I think there's a lot of things that we see. We had some senior folks leave over the last few years who have went on and done great things at our organization. We Thornton Buckeye Group is constantly working with people who are looking to expand and right size their profile within the public policy sphere to do great things. It's not just one way to do it. It's not just one person doing it. And again, it all gets down to being willing to have that conversation, being willing to listen and being open to what's possible. It's hard sometimes. We wanna know. I know it, I know it. I can do it. Trust me, I know. But it's almost always not the way to do it.

Right. Exactly. Exactly. Well, Jay, really appreciate it, man. This is really great. I feel like I could just keep on going. And I know that because we talked for like an hour before we started.

Yeah, definitely.

But before we go, can you let the listeners know again about where you are now, the. The comp. Your public relations company and how they can get in touch.

Thornton Buckeye Group. You can check out Thornton Buckeye group dot com. So that's T H O R N T O N Buckeye B U C K e y e group, G-R-O-U-P.com or you can email C Davis letter C D A V I S Davis at thornton buckeye group.com. and so it's, you know, I'm really proud of my wife. My wife is a dynamic professional in her own right. Vice president, alliance for Great Lakes. She really is the one driving Thornton Buckeye Group from day to day with a couple of our, you know, key staff and consultants. And to see her as a African American woman, young woman, take on this and with such vigor and, you know, it's been. It's been great to see. I'm just glad. I'm just glad I couldn't be able to help. I'm glad I could be able to step in and, you know, 10 years ago we said I do. So it's. It's been great. And, you know, check it out if for your public affairs needs, Thornton Buckeye Group.

Love it. Yeah, man. I tell you one thing I respect. You've always been incredibly good at getting all Stars on your team, and Crystal's a great.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Definitely, definitely.

So this is great, man.

Really appreciate it, man. I want to go to the top.

That's right. Appreciate it, brother.

Appreciate it. Thank you. Bye.

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