How to Become an Ethical Influencer With Brian Ahearn, CPCU, CTM, CPT, CMCT

Hello, my friends, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. This show is produced by the American Negotiation Institute and with over 5 million downloads and listeners in over 180 countries, listeners just like you have made this the number one negotiation podcast in the world. Hi, my name is Kwame Christian and I am the founder and CEO of the American Negotiation Institute. Here at A&I, we believe that the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And we are passionate, passionate about providing you with the best content that will help you to make your difficult conversations easier both at work and at home. Lastly, I want to remind you that we offer consulting and conduct trainings both virtually and in person all around the world. Our focus is in three main areas. First, negotiation and conflict resolution. Second, leadership. And lastly, diversity, equity and inclusion. Check the link in the description below to learn more about how we could work with you and your team. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Brian, thanks for joining us today.

Hey, Kwame, it's my pleasure to be back.

It is our pleasure to have you, my friend. What is this? Fourth time? Something like that? It's crazy.

I think it is. I think it is.

That's wild. That is wild. So for our new listeners, can you tell us about yourself and what you do?

Sure. My background was 30 plus years in the insurance industry. Came across the work of Dr. Robert Cialdini, the most cited living social psychologist on the planet when it comes to ethical influence. Became so intrigued by his work that ultimately I became certified on his behalf to teach his methodology. And then about three and a half years ago, left my corporate role to pursue this full time through my company, Influence People.

This is great. Yes. And when you think about ethical persuasion, because there aren't many people who add that modifier. Why is that important to you?

Well, it's important to me from a moral foundation. When I came across Cialdini's work, I loved the fact that it was research based. I knew that the psychology was the underpinning of all selling. And I loved his stance on ethics. That resonated with me. And I think, Kwame, if we are going to make an impact on people for the long term, we have to do it in a way that is ethical. That makes them look back and say, I'm thankful that I met you.

Absolutely. And this is a question I get all the time. I'm sure you get it too. When you think about the difference between persuasion and manipulation, what is it for you?

Well, manipulation. Well, let's just we'll go this way. Persuasion, to do it ethically, has to have three components. First is we tell the truth. Now, it's not enough to just tell the truth. We also don't hide the truth. We never hold back information that will materially impact somebody's decision making. Because if they find out about it and come back later, they're going to look at us as unethical. So we tell the truth, and we never hide the truth. The second thing that we do is we only use the psychology, the principles of persuasion in ways that are natural to the situation. So we don't force scarcity where there's no scarcity. We don't claim social proof if there's no social proof. And the third thing that we do, we always make sure that what we're putting on the table, what we're asking of somebody, is not just good for us, but it has to be good for them. And I like to say this, good for you, good for me, then we're good to go. And if we have those three things, I think we can feel very good about ourselves and how we're interacting with people to try to get them to do the things that we need them to do.

Yeah. And I think on the other side, too, we can feel good about ourselves, but they also can feel good about themselves and feel good about the relationship that they have with you and the decisions that they're making. They're making it fully informed. And after the fact, they feel good about the interaction.

Absolutely. You know, Kwame, over time, the more I have learned and studied and talked about this, the principle of liking just keeps coming to the top. Because if we employ that the right way, it's not about me getting you, Kwame, to like me, so you'll do what I want. Now, that does work when somebody likes you. But what's far more effective is when I come to like you. Because then when you start to really sense like, hey, Brian cares about me, you become much more open to whatever I might be asking. Because deep down, you believe friends do right by friends. And because I believe that, too, than what I am putting on the table. Not that it's always correct for you, but from what I understand and I'm putting on the table, I'm doing it for your best interest. And we've created this virtuous cycle, so to speak. And it really is the thing that removes manipulation. Because I would never manipulate my friends. I know you would never manipulate your friends. So then we need to go into situations saying, what can I do to come to know and like these people that I'm going to interact with, because that will change everything.

I love it. This is great, everybody. So Brian and I are good friends. We're actually getting drinks on Monday, which is a few days away. And this episode is going to be. Is going to be a fun one because Brian just launched a new book. It is my new favorite book on the market when it comes to ethical influence and persuasion. And it's written in a completely different way when you compare it to other books on the market, which I really, really appreciate. It's a completely fresh take on it. Brian, let me give you the floor. And you just introduce the book, tell us about it, and then we'll dissect it and go and learn more about it.

The book is called the Influencer Secrets to and Happiness. And like many people during the pandemic, I had extra time on my hands and I wanted to reach a new audience with what I teach about ethical influence. My first book was heavy on the business psychology. The second book was a very sales dedicated book. And I know there are some people who will never pick up either of those types of books, but a lot of those people will read a good story. So I thought, can I take all this psychology and tell it in a compelling way through a story? And so I sat down and started writing this. And the basis of the book, Kwame, is it follows the life of a young man named John Andrews. You literally meet him when he's born and you learn about his family and his background. He goes off to college, takes a psych course, learns a little about influence, and he's intrigued by it. But it's not until he gets out into his career that he really begins to put the pieces together and understands how important it is. And so he's learning from mentors and coaches, peers, his boss, all these people. He has a learning mindset. And he's finding out from each of these people that he's encountering. What are you doing that's making you so successful at this particular thing? And he begins to form a philosophy, and he actually looks at it as a puzzle. And he's kind of putting the pieces of the puzzle together throughout the book to come up with this overall philosophy of how do you interact with people and influence them so that they can enjoy success and happiness.

This is great. And I think for me, the thing that's so interesting about it is that I look at my life through the lens of persuasion. This is my passion. At the American Negotiation Institute, we Always talk about the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. What you've done with this book is that you've showed just how significant these difficult conversations are when it comes to the trajectory of somebody's life's outcomes.

Yeah, you know, I look at it, Kwame, when I, for example, in the sales cycle, starting with prospecting and having your first meeting and presenting, negotiating, closing, all of those things are skills. But I look at influence as something that supports all of them. You can't be a good negotiator if you don't understand how people's minds work and how to. How to influence them through the process. You can't be good at prospecting if you don't understand those same things. You know, why would somebody want to give you 15 minutes of their time? What does compelling research say about how to make that happen? So it would almost be like if in football, there are certain skills on the field, but underneath those skills are always speed, strength, agility. And so I kind of look at influences as that basis.

Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. And I want to point out a nuance here when it comes to the way that you're seeing this that I think people might have missed. So, for instance, if you were to look at me, I'm not an artist, for example, but if I look at the color blue, I see one or two types of blue. Three maybe sky blue, turquoise, whatever. But an artist can identify hundreds of different types of blues because they see the world differently. They have a different appreciation. That's how you are with language, because you dropped a few things in there that I think that people might have missed because you talked about sales, you talked about negotiation, you talked about influence, but you talked about them as three separate things. When you think about influence versus sales and influence versus negotiation, what separates influence from those things?

Well, I know a lot of times people will say something like, well, we're always selling. But I look at selling as really the exchange of product or service for value. So that's really not the case. If I'm trying to influence my wife or my daughter or sometimes with other people. So there's not that exchange that's there. But many of the concepts that help you sell come from understanding how to influence people and negotiating. I would look at the same way. I may have a very desired outcome. The other person does. We're trying to figure out a way where we can meet somewhere where we both walk away saying we're better off for having engaged in that. But then Again, I think the underpinning of it is the psychology and how do people think and behave? So that's how I start differentiating some of those particular skills. Prospecting could be talked about as attraction or marketing because you're wanting to get people to say yes to you to have a potential next step. But again, I think the underpinning of it is understanding how people think, process information, and ultimately behave.

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One of the things when I think about psychology, I think it gives you it helps you not only to just understand yourself, but also understand others too. It gives you a better understanding of the entire interaction and it allows you to be more creative in the moment. There are people out there who like to focus on strategies and tactics and just collecting those versus understanding influence and psychology. Can you talk about the difference between those two approaches to learning and improving the skill?

Sure. I look at tactics as something that is very applicable in the moment. But sometimes if all you know are certain tactics or strategies and you're in a situation where they don't apply and you could be dead in the water. But if you have an underpinning of influence and how people think and behave, I think that gives you a lot of opportunity to pivot. And I'll give another analogy because I know you work out and I enjoy exercise and working out. There's not one way to work out if somebody is a great trainer and they just went to you and said, kwame, the thing you need to do is run six miles a day and do something else. It might work for you, but it also might not, especially if you got a bad knee or a bad hip or something. But if you understand the philosophy of exercise, then you have so many other things you can engage in. You could be biking, you could be playing basketball. You could get your exercise if you're on intramural soccer. There are a lot of ways to move your body in a way that helps your cardiovascular and your aerobic and your muscles. And so that's what you want to understand because then you have so many more options. And I think again, coming back to these principles of persuasion, when you understand them and if you really internalize them, they become a principled way to live 100%.

And when you go back to the book Influencer, everybody link in the description below. Of course, this book is that the book, that book, the Influencer. When you think about the life of John in the book, what are the principles that come up most frequently as it relates to him navigating his day to day life?

It started with liking. He really had a good mentor where he learned what I shared with you before that it wasn't about getting people to like him, it was about him coming to like the people that he was with. He started to then realize that the more I connect with you on what we have in common, the more I can compliment you again. It begins to remove any hints of manipulation, but it starts to inform much of the other psychology because the more I get to know you and like you well, if I know you, then I know how to give to you, which engages reciprocity. And when my giving comes from an authentic place and it really is something that you're like, wow, you actually heard me. You know, I like this. It means so much more. It begins to inform the principle of consistency because I understand you, I know what you've said, I know what you've done, I know what you value. And now I can bring whatever it is that I might be putting out on the table, so to speak speak, I can bring all that to bear. So it really starts with getting to know you and do that the right way and of course I'll like you.

Yeah, makes a lot of sense. And let's actually, let's explore this because you touched on a couple of things and I want to go deeper here. And so when you think about liking, you said the word authentic. You made sure to state that this was not manipulation. A lot of times when people use the approach of giving compliments, this is good. We've seen compliments be used in a way that's positive. And then we've seen seen compliments where it seems like, oh, this person's just sucking up. Oh, this is just flattery in order to get me to do something. And so for the people who are listening and say, okay, I'm going to like people, I'm going to compliment them. How do I do that without the person feeling as though I'm trying to manipulate them or they're feeling as though it's like false flattery.

Yeah. So I think it's a shift of the mindset that is not, oh, I learned this. And if I do this, my sales will go up. It's okay. I've learned this. And I really would like to enjoy the people that I interact with. I would really like to enjoy the customers I serve, the co workers that I'm around, the vendors I deal with. Whoever it is, if nothing else happens, I want to like these people because I know life will be better. If I can truly say I enjoy the people that I interact with. That should be the mindset. And I think that's where the authenticity begins to come out, where people start to sense this isn't just to make a sale. I like this guy, this guy likes me. It's enjoyable to interact. And I've had people, Kwame, who I've not done any business with, and it's okay because I still enjoy them and they enjoy me. Sometimes it leads to many connections that ultimately a piece of business comes from. That's wonderful. But it started because I genuinely liked and cared about those people.

Yeah, makes sense. And I think that the right behaviors flow organically from the right mindsets. I think a lot of people listening would say, okay, I understand that I need to incorporate a mindset shift along with these behaviors. But then how do people adopt that mindset shift? I think that's the big question. So, for instance, if I'm a salesperson, I'm trying to close deals, but I'm also trying to use these principles. How do I still try to move toward my goal without making that goal? The only reason I'm having a conversation so it doesn't feel like the person's being used.

Well, first of all, sometimes that is the reason you're having the conversation. I mean, as I connect with people on LinkedIn, do I hope that they will potentially be customers? Absolutely. If they don't become customers, am I going to treat them differently? No, I won't. I will continue. If they message me or call me, I'm going to answer the message, I'm going to take the call, and I'm going to be just as friendly as if I were actually doing business with them. Because it's just the right way, I think, to treat people. So the mind shift, you know, we. We should never, ever forget that we are in control. Of our conscious thoughts. We may not always know what's driving us subconsciously, but we can make a conscious choice when we go into situations and that's what we need to do. We make conscious choices to maybe eat better, to exercise, do anything like that. So look at it that way and go into those situations. And with that mindset that says, I am going to approach this with a mindset that says, I like these people. And one of the interesting things, there was a video that we had used decades ago in some training and it was from the founders of the old Farrell's ice cream, which I don't think is around anymore. He had an employee who was complaining about customers. She just. All she saw was the negativity in customers. And he really started to recognize, I think the problem was her. So what he said was, I want you to, every time you go up to a customer, just smile and nod and say, in your mind, I like you. And she thought it was hokey, but she did it. And at the end of her shift, she said, you're pulling my leg because you just gave me the good customers today. And he said, no, it was you. It was your mindset because you said, I like them. It changed how you interacted with them, but it changed how they interacted with you. And that's within the capability of all of us to do that.

Yeah, I love that example because it's so real. It's so real. Just a simple change in mindset can not only change our approach, but also change the way that people interact with us too. It's kind of like a self fulfilling prophecy. We could either make it positive or negative.

Yeah, they're picking up on the subtle cues. And I always tell people, I'll tell an audience, you all have a BS meter. You can tell when someone really likes you. You see the look in the eye, you hear the tone of voice, smile, body language. There's all of these things that are registering at the subconscious. And you just naturally can tell when somebody likes you or when somebody's just giving you a bunch of B. So we need to make sure that we're the kind of person who wants to like those people. That when we think of them, a smile does come to our face and there is an upbeat tone of voice and our body language and all of that begins to register. And that's what starts transforming the relationships. And it's not rocket science. And it doesn't necessarily take a long time. We can have short interactions with people with that mindset and those people are Like, I really enjoyed that. They want to connect with you.

Thank you. That's great. That is great. When you think about as people are improving their ability to influence others, what are the biggest barriers to them getting to that level?

Everything that I talk to an audience about, they intuitively understand because I'm describing human behavior. And they are either thinking of a time that maybe they bought a car and they're like, oh, that's what the salesperson did. That's why I bought the car. Or maybe they're thinking, oh, oh, this could be why people are responding positively to me. I didn't know I was doing it. I didn't have a label, but now I understand. So everybody gets it. But what they don't always get is the application. So I'll give you some examples. Most people go into situations trying to get others to like them. It's better than nothing. But it's not going to be nearly as effective as what we've been talking about. A lot of people will go into situations with a mindset of give to get. And we've all had people who come up to us and they're offering us, and we know they just want something, so it's not genuine. And I always tell people, reciprocity is not give to get. It's give. And if you help enough other people, like Zig Ziglar said, you help enough other people get what they want, you'll have all the. All of your dreams will be fulfilled because people will want to help you in return. But it starts with being authentic. So that's another mistake, and I'll just give one more. When we talk about the principle of consistency that says that we feel this internal pressure to live up to our word, most people don't engage others to get them to make any commitment at all. They tell them what to do. So if I say, kwame, give me a call tomorrow, you haven't assented to that. You might be thinking, I can't. I'm busy. You might be thinking, you don't like me and you're not going to call. But if I say, hey, Kwame, would you give me a call tomorrow? You're either going to say yes or no. And if you say yes, you are far more likely to do it. So the mistake that people make is they're always telling people what to do and not asking.

Yeah, let's dig deeper into that because again, that is. It is a subtle nuance that has a lot of significance when it comes to not just the outcome of these conversations. But also the process and the relationship that you have with the other person. So can you go a bit deeper on that one?

Well, first of all, I don't think anybody listening or watching likes to be told what to do, because that limits our freedom. But if somebody asks us, and even, even if we don't feel as much like we'd like to do it, at least we had a chance to say no. So a lot of times people will say yes. If you understand the psychology the right way, you're anticipating no, because there's a lot of times people will say no. So, clear example, as Kai gets older and you want him to do certain things like empty the dishwasher, you don't say, kai, empty the dishwasher. It's Kai, would you empty the dishwasher for me now? If he says, I can't, dad, I'm late for something. If you have a fallback position like, hey, Kai, will you empty it as soon as you get home from school? Right. And he says, yeah, yeah, I will. Almost every time he would do that, you might only care that it's empty by dinner time so you can put the dirty dishes in it. So anticipating that people might say no, knowing what your fallback position is and then being willing to step in, understanding that quite often when someone says no, if you moderate, they'll meet you part way. Of course, you know this in your audience. That's a huge, huge part of negotiating. But even when you're not in a negotiation situation, a formal one, we are always needing people to do things. So give yourself fallback positions, timeframes and things like that, and ask instead of tell, and you come across as a much more reasonable, likable person.

Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. And what it sounds like is that we're using these everyday conversations as opportunities to deepen the relationship through influence, while also making it more likely for us to get the outcomes that we want.

Yeah. And that's why the subtitle is Secrets to Success. Everybody gets that at work. They understand. The more that people say yes, usually the better things go. But when you go home, you're interacting with spouse, kids, neighbors, other people. Quite often a lot of friction can be avoided by rethinking how you're going to communicate, doing that differently, and avoiding the I told you to empty the dishwasher. I didn't hear you, dad. I've been busy. I was just going to do it. All of that angst in the moment could have been avoided by having that restructured conversation beforehand.

Yes, yes, and let's get deeper into that too, Brian, because that's something that a lot of people miss. Because sometimes people would ask me, if somebody gets incredibly hostile with me and they're yelling and screaming at me, how do I handle that? One of the things I realize is that that doesn't happen to me that frequently. And so I tell them, well, first we have to manage the relationship a little bit better on the front end to make sure that we don't get to that point. And so can you go a bit deeper on how essentially conversational architecture can help us avoid problems down the road?

Well, going in with a question instead of a statement is a first opportunity to do that. But if you want to back up even further how you are interacting with all of those people well beforehand. Right. Have you connected with them? Do they like you? Do you like them? All of those things can make for those conversations that could be so difficult with somebody that they really don't know, like, or trust much. But if they know you, they like you, they trust you. That becomes a very different conversation. One bit of research that I share sometimes there was an online negotiating situation between students at Stanford and Northwestern, and they needed to do this online negotiating. One half of the group was told, don't do anything to get to know your negotiating partner. Keep it strictly business. Negotiate the best deal possible. The other group was told, get to know the negotiating partner. Exchange emails if you're comfortable, exchange photos. Do what you can to get to know this person before you start negotiating. And one of the variables that was measured was failure to negotiate an agreement. Those who kept it strictly business. Kwame, 30% were unable to come to any kind of agreement. But for those who got to know the negotiating partner, only 6% failed. So think about that. Five times more people failed to negotiate agreement. Only difference between the randomly separated groups was because one took time to get to know the other person. So you've got to lay that foundation before you get into some of those conversations. If you want those conversations to be different than, unfortunately, too many people experience where they become adversarial.

Yeah, you're absolutely right. I think about some business people who say, well, Brian, I don't have time for that. I don't have time to get into these nonsensical conversations. And I don't care about their family, whatever it happens to be. But essentially what it sounds like there's saying is I don't care about doing what it takes to be successful.

I was thinking, I don't. To me, that's you saying, I don't care about outcomes. I just want to take the shortcut to get what I want out of that situation. But you have to look at it as an investment. And that time that you put in beforehand will probably in most cases pay big dividends because of, you know, less friction in negotiation, coming to resolution quicker. I'll give you one more since it's all about negotiation. The podcast Another bit of research that we share. Robert Cialdini's partner, Dr. Greg Niter, was working with a Fortune 100 company, and they brought him in specifically because they were having difficulty bringing negotiations for mergers and acquisitions to a timely close. On average, it was taking them about nine months from the time they started the process process until they ended it. What Nider noticed was the CEO was an all business guy. Come in right when the meetings would start, leave as soon as they were over. So after doing all of this research on the company, all of these interviews and things, his advice seemed so simplistic. It was for the CEO. Get to the meetings at least 15 minutes early. Take time to get to know the people on the other side of the negotiating table. Let them get to know you. And what they found was after they had done that, their average negotiating time fell from six months or from nine months down to six months. So 33% less time. Now think about the size of if you're a Fortune 100 company, the acquisitions and mergers, the sooner you start reaping the benefits of that acquisition or merger, you're making much more money. By their own estimate, depending on the size, it was worth anywhere from 10 to $30 million a deal.

And so the question becomes to these companies, are you interested in making 10 to 30 million dollars more per deal? The answer would probably be yes. You're getting paid millions of dollars to be nice to people. That's essentially what we're learning here.

That's a good way to look at it.

Yes. It's really fascinating too, because like you said at the beginning, when, if it feels transactional, if people feel as though I am being nice to you for the purpose of making money or for the purpose of making deals, then it doesn't work. It doesn't seem genuine because it's not. It's not authentic. But if you can learn to genuinely like somebody, I think it goes back to what we hear all the time about other things in just life and business in general. Learn to enjoy the journey, learn to enjoy the process. And if you take a genuine liking to people in general, then you'll Start to enjoy the process of getting to, like, this specific person in the moment. And then regardless of how the deal ends up, you've created a relationship that in the moment was great. It might end, you might never see each other again. That happens from time to time in business. But in that moment, you did create a meaningful and real relationship that put you in a better position for a deal to materialize if it was able to happen. But not all deals are meant to be made, and that's just the reality of negotiation in general.

Yeah, well, I. A number of things to say on that. I love that you talked about enjoying the journey. I learned through sports. So when I got out of or when I was in college, I was competitive power lifter. And then I was competed in bodybuilding for a number of years. When I stopped doing that, I took up running and I ran marathons. So pretty radical shift. And then when I stopped that, I did taekwondo for many years with my daughter. And one of the things that I learned, Kwame, was whatever the goal was, whether it was to stand on stage at the bodybuilding contest or run the marathon or test for a black belt, that was only a reason to do something that I loved and to do that thing that I loved with more intensity and passion. And if you can wake up every day and feel like the thing you love, you've got this goal that's driving you to do it harder, it just becomes more fun. So loving the journey was so important because. Because standing on stage for 20 minutes after training for like four or five months, twice a day, you know, for hours, and dieting, that's not a very big reward coming back. You better enjoy the process. And I think in business, when I look at outreach to potential customers there, I've met so many wonderful people, and I wouldn't have met them if there hadn't been this goal. So even if I don't reach that goal with that particular organization, I still can say, you know what? I enjoyed the process. I enjoyed meeting this individual. And I do think that that spreads. Sometimes it comes back later, sometimes they tell other people, but it ends up spreading because that's where the genuineness comes. I had a client last week who, as we got into depth in what I'm doing, and I could see that the owner of this insurance agency, he's smiling, he's nodding, he's like, all in. But the lady who was in charge of developing the training, who had contacted me, she said, yeah, but do you do? And she started talking about sales process and sales Metrics. And I said, I don't. I said, that is not what I do. So if that's what you're looking for, you really want to find somebody else. And I would be happy to refer people that I think could help you. But once you get your process in place, what I teach about influence will help you magnify it, help you make it much better. Now, now, I didn't get that piece of business because they're going to look for someone to implement sales process and metrics. But I'm very confident that sometime in the future I'll probably be doing business with them because they liked what they heard, but they trusted me because I didn't try to push something on them. I simply said, would it be okay if I stay in touch with you maybe every six months or so to find out how things are going that will, I think, ultimately lead to very positive things for both of us.

Absolutely. And so I just want to highlight a couple of the incredible things in what you just said. So for the audience here, I think this is one of the most impressive things about Brian. So we learned about his bodybuilding, his marathon running and his taekwondo. And so we know that he is stronger than most. He's trained to hurt people and if they try to run away, he could catch them. And yet he chooses to persuade people ethically. So that's impressive by itself. And then what you said there was really great because what you're realizing is you have a people first mentality when it comes to these interactions. You genuinely care and that comes through. And whether or not the deal happens, you're still in a better place, relationship wise. But it's almost like playing relationship chess. It's about putting yourself in the best position and you can't always guarantee the outcome. But as long as you position yourself well in the relationship, you know that if the outcome and the opportunity is there for you to get it, then you're more likely to get it than most because you have put yourself in the best position for success in the relationship.

Absolutely. And every one of those interactions is also building a foundation for future interactions. So the more that I can put into practice what I preach and I get better at it and I enjoy it more and they enjoy it more, that's setting the stage. I'm getting better at that skill, which is going to create other opportunities down the road. So we can't just look at it as, darn it, I didn't get that thing. That's what I wanted. Quite often there's something better as you say on the other side.

Absolutely. No, this is great. This is great. And so, quick question. Have you written any books on the topic of influence that could potentially help people day to day and in their professional lives?

I think I did. I can't remember them, but.

That'S the goal.

That is the goal with the books, is another avenue for spreading the message. Just like this is an avenue for spreading the message too. Most of your listeners won't go pick up a book. I know that, you know that. But they've learned something here. And so they're a little more equipped for those who are finding it intriguing. Yeah, go get one of the books. I think you will learn a lot more in depth than you could in a 30 minute interview that you'd be able to put in practice.

Definitely. No, I agree. Listen, everybody, I wholeheartedly endorse it. Yeah, I actually literally endorsed it. Yes, I wrote the forward, so yes, I did. It is a great book. So make sure you check that out. And Brian, can you let the listeners know about how, how they can get in touch with you and work with you?

Sure. The best two ways are LinkedIn and as I always tell everybody, if you don't tell me how you found me, it's a guarantee that you will get a message back asking, how did you come across my profile? Or something like that. I like to know why people are reaching out, but it's also an opportunity to keep social media social. It's always amazes me how many people are surprised that somebody would actually reach back and ask a question and start a little bit of a conversation. And even if you tell me you're going to still get a personal message back, that's going to say, I really appreciate that. So we'll have some opportunity for interaction. The other avenue is my website, which is influencepeople biz. And if people go out there. I've been blogging weekly now for more than 14 years, so that's a lot of blog posts. I've been a guest on about 150 podcasts now. Those are all categorized out there. There are links to my books, there are links to the preview courses I've done with LinkedIn learning. So a lot of opportunity out on the website.

This is great, Brian. Thank you again for coming on the show, my friend. Really appreciate it.

It was my pleasure and I look forward to seeing you Monday.

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