How to Better Understand Your Opponent with Haylee Harrison

Hello, my friends, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. This show is produced by the American Negotiation Institute and with over 5 million downloads and listeners in over 180 countries, listeners just like you have made this the number one negotiation podcast in the world. Hi, my name is Kwame Christian and I am the founder and CEO of the American Negotiation Institute. Here at AI, we believe that the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And we are passionate about providing you with the best content that will help you to make your difficult conversations easier, both at work and at home. Lastly, I want to remind you that we offer consulting and conduct trainings both virtually and in person all around the world. Our focus is in three main areas. First, negotiation and conflict resolution. Second, leadership. And lastly, diversity, equity, and inclusion. Check the link in the description below to learn more about how we could work with you and your team. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Haley, thanks for joining us today.

Hi, how are you? It's nice to see you again.

Yes, it's good to see you again, too. So, for the listeners who might not have, might not remember or maybe didn't catch the first time you were here, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do?

Sure, yeah. I am a attorney recruiter with Major Lindsay in Africa, so. So I'm a managing director of candidate development for them.

Very nice, very nice. And so tell us a bit more about, like your specific role, like your responsibilities, what it entails.

Sure. I help candidates and our candidates are attorneys, paralegals, compliance directors, people of that nature in the legal field find new positions. Right now I'm working on solely the candidate facing side, so people that are looking for jobs. In my previous role with Comp Health, I was helping both the candidates and the clients. And the clients would be the employer. Right. Somebody you're looking for a job, that potential employer is the client.

Very nice. Cool. And so with this episode, we're talking about how to negotiate in recruiting, but there are going to be some people who are not actively in the world of recruiting. So. So before we get into the actual nitty gritty, can you tell the listeners why it's still important for them to understand some of the basics here?

Yeah, absolutely. So even if you're not a recruiter, you may work with one at some point, either on the employer end or on the candidate end. At some point, everyone might need to find a new job. Just it happens in people's lives. And as my dad always says, you're always your own employer. So regardless of whether you are or not working with a recruiter, some of these tips might just help you in your own job search.

Fantastic. Well, great. Well, let's jump into it. So the three things we're going to talk about today are first, how to negotiate with the candidates. Second, how to negotiate with the clients, and then third, how to negotiate with the gatekeeper. And again, for people who aren't really familiar with the world of recruiting, before we jump into like the nitty gritty here, the candidates, clients and gatekeepers who are all of these players. And then we'll go into the strategies for each one.

Sure. So the candidate is someone who might be looking for a job. Right. If you were looking for a job, you're a candidate. I think that one's pretty self explanatory. The client, it's pretty important to note the client is the employer. Almost always, that is the person who is the client of the recruiter. And then the gatekeeper, importantly, is generally somebody who may be a business partner, a business administrator, secretary that answers the calls on behalf of the client. Right. Or occasionally the candidate, someone who is in the middle of you getting to get on the phone and speak with them. That's a gatekeeper.

Perfect. Awesome. So when we're talking about recruiting or negotiating with the candidates, what does that look like and what do we need to consider?

Right. So there's a couple important things. This whole thing, we kind of framed it from the recruiter's point of view and tips for them. So listening is actually a huge factor. Right. We call it the 8020 rule. I actually believe that I heard it on one of your earlier podcasts as well. But making sure you're doing about 20% of the talking and 80% of the listening with that. You want to make sure you're asking open ended questions. So things that prompt them to give you a full answer, not just a yes or no response. That's very important. You're going to get more information out of somebody here. Hearing them out. When you're speaking to a candidate, sometimes you'll run into somebody who maybe has had a bad experience with recruiters in the past, somebody that didn't do right by them or sent out their, you know, they sent them their resume and just never heard anything back. That happens unfortunately, all too often. The best thing you can do in that situation, you want to kill them with kindness. Right. Listen to them, let their feelings are valid. That was their experience. No matter whether that's the kind of recruiter you are or not. So you don't want to invalidate somebody's perception of how that event went. So it's very important to validate their feelings. Yes. That sounds like it was a horrible experience. I'm sorry that you were treated that way. And tell them why working with you would be different.

Right. Oh, this is great. And so when you're Talking about the 8020 rule, asking questions, learning more, what are some of the things that you think are important for us to know about the candidate in this situation?

Sure. So you want to know why are they looking? Right. What has them looking for a new job opportunity. That's huge. Where are they in their search? Are they interviewing already with places? Are they just looking right now, casually? Are they a passive or an active candidate? If they're actively looking, you want to make sure you're getting them job opportunities as quickly as you're seeing the ones that fit them. If they're more passive, maybe you're pickier in what you show them that you know what their situation is. Especially now with the pandemic and everything. You know, there are people who've been laid off and they need to figure out a way to pay their mortgage. So you're having a lot more active candidates right now than normal. But figuring out their background, what they're looking for and why are they looking, it's not always just about money. Sometimes it's about what they can substantively do. They want to feel like their knowledge in certain areas being put to better use. Sometimes it's about the culture and the environment of where they are or work life balance, you know, so you want to make sure you actually figure out what's driving the force here. Because if you're offering them something that's just a compensation, you know, difference, that's not always what's going to make your job the right job. Yeah.

Oh, this is good because. And I can imagine some candidates might say to themselves, all right, this is something almost like an interview, a job interview. And they might be a little bit guarded when you ask these questions. And they might give you that kind of robotic, surface level response, well, I'm just looking for a new opportunity that will challenge me and would be fulfilling, you know, something that really doesn't mean anything. And so how do you determine whether or not it's legitimate? And how do you push further and get beneath the surface to find out that real why?

So there's a good technique called the question behind the question. They're telling you, you know, I'm Looking for a new job where I am right now is not just. It's just not a good fit. Okay, well, why is it not a good fit? And it does really behoove people to drop their guard with their recruiter and let them know what's going on behind the scenes. You don't have to get into all the nitty gritty, but saying, you know, I'm looking for a place that respects my time off when I'm asking for it, or something like that, that really helps them know, okay, well, so and so probably won't be the best employer because I know they really are looking for people who can drop everything and run when, when needed. And does, does it make, you know, the employer bad or the candidate bad just means they have different priorities. So making sure you're asking the question behind the question to the candidate is very important. With that, there's actually a really good book by John G. Miller and it's literally called the Question behind the Question. You can get it for under $10. It's fantastic. You read in a day. But it's a nice read and I think it really elaborates well on that point. So shameless plug for that author because I like that book a lot.

That's great. And so what other things should we consider when negotiating with client with the candidates? Any challenges that could get in the way.

So sense of urgency is really important. You want to keep the romance alive, so to speak. So having that sense of urgency is very important and explaining why it's helpful to the candidate as well. If they don't understand kind of what's in it for them, then they may not follow through. Right. So that sense of urgency, you don't want them to the client to get distracted with another candidate that walks through that door. So having that sense of urgency that if you are interested, let's get your information over to them sooner rather than later. If they want to wait a week and think about it, you never know who's going to apply within that week for the job. So you might be qualified and a great fit for the position, but you can't let like live your life according to fate, so to speak. You need to take action and get your information in front of them because somebody else who maybe is going to accept the position for a lower number that's also well qualified might walk through the door the next day.

Yeah. Oh, that's great. That's a really great point. And I think this is a great negotiation point that we can apply to a lot of different Things. Because this is scarcity. Right. If you think about the book Influence by Robert Cialdini, fantastic book. Scarcity.

Yeah, That's a great one.

Yeah. Oh, highly recommend it.

You recommended it on one of your podcasts and I read it. So I would say, oh, that's great.

Oh, that's great. Yes. So this is scarcity. And so once people recognize, hey, there's an opportunity here and it might disappear based on time, then people say, okay, yeah, I'm going to have that sense of urgency. It makes it not only more likely for them to do it quickly, but for them to do it at all. Because a lot of times when people take longer to make a decision, they end up choosing not to make a decision down the road. So I think this is a negotiation technique that we could all use effectively as long as it's not too manipulative. And the beauty of this is that it's not because it's legitimate. You might lose this opportunity if somebody gets in front of you in line.

And I'm glad you brought that up. That's something we'll definitely touch on. On the client side as well, is things that there's a fine line and you want to make sure you're never. You never want to be manipulative because that actually just violates the trust between the candidate and the client, or I mean, the candidate and the recruiter or the recruiter and the client, you know, at the very foundation is trust there. And if you do anything to damage that sense of trust, no one's going to want to work with you again. And reputation precedes you. Reputation is everything in this business because recruiting is a much smaller world than you would think.

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Yes. So setting expectations, there's two actually things, but setting expectations is the first. So making sure that you set up, hey, you know, this is a, generally a free service on the candidate end. There is no fee. The client, the employer pays the fee to the recruiter. But you know, at the end of the day you want to make sure you have timely communication. So 24 hours or so, and you can expect the same professional courtesy in return. Just letting the recruiter know that, hey, you know, I'm really busy this week, but let's set up a call on Monday or something. But some kind of sign of life on the other end, that's generally a good one. That's a great expectation to set with the candidate from the get go. But other expectations are important to set as well, such as if they have an interview coming up, let you know as the recruiter. If they do that can actually help them. And explaining why it helps them will help them remember to do it. So, hey, if you have an interview coming up, let me know. Because if, for example, let's say the client is stalling, they need to think about a couple things or something more urgent came up. There's, you know, sometimes there's very valid reasons for stalling, but if they are stalling, letting them know, you know, that candidate you're very interested in has an on site interview coming up and therefore you need to go ahead and reach out to them if you're interested. Now. So setting those expectations for open communication, timely communication, whatever the expectation may be, make sure you set that up, if you can, in your very first call and keep managing and setting expectations the whole way through the relationship.

Yeah, this is great advice. And one of the things I always talk about in our negotiation trainings is the fact that there's one thing that leads to the breakdown of every relationship and it's the violation of expectations. Whether it's business or personal, it's a violation of expectations. Right. And so, for instance, communication, people would often say communication is the reason why relationships break down. Well, the reason why communication is a problem is that it's a symptom of the cause of a violation of expectations. Right. I expected you to communicate with me in this way, in this, within this time frame, and you did not. So that's why we think there's a communication problem. And so in all of our difficult conversations, we need to do a good job early in the conversation of articulating what our expectations are and asking those questions and staying curious to learn what their unspoken expectations Are as well.

Yes, exactly. The last thing I'd say we need to make sure of is it can really help if you break down the numbers with candidates. And by that let me dive into what I mean, more so at the end of the day, if you've done a really great job with this candidate and if they've done a great job when they're interviewing, perhaps you'll be seeing an offer. So a good technique on the candidate side, if you're. If they're going to try to renegotiate an offer or just setting an expectation on what they're looking for up front is really breaking up the numbers with evidence or breaking down the numbers if they need to ask for more. So for example, let me explain what I mean because it sounds a little confusing at first, breaking down the numbers for people. Right. So if they need 5,000 relocation, that wasn't offered, if they can do a little explaining behind those numbers, it'll really help them in the long run. So, for example, you know, you need the 5,000 more. I looked up a U haul. A U haul is 2,500, you know, plus gas all the way up there and the supplies, movers on both ends. You know, 5,000 is really going to help me get there so I can start this job for you. Or, you know, I need to break out of my lease. So I need another 5,000 or whatever to break out of my lease. But kind of explaining why will help people understand. Yeah, you know, they're going to need this. So that makes sense. Let me give them the 5,000 for reload. It's not always going to work, but it helps a lot. Or breaking down the numbers. And by that I mean, let's say you need another 10k a year, really. And you know, that's what you need. You can ask for 10k a year more, but if you actually sit there and say 10k a year more, but really that's only 192, 31 a week or $4.81 more an hour, all of a sudden that number starts to seem silly. 10k at first. People like, wow, okay, maybe that's a lot. Depending on profession it might be. But 481 an hour, then people are saying, oh, well, that's actually not so much. And you've made it seem like such a smaller amount you're really asking for. It's a lot easier to say yes to that.

Yeah. Oh, that's an expert level point. Those two points are great. And so when you think about how you're substantiating your want to do is you want to make sure that you're using legitimate and objective criteria. So you're not just saying, like you said, I'm asking for $5,000. What is the legitimate criteria? We're going to go to the, like, we're going to figure out what the general cost would be. And we want to get it objectively. We want to get it from a party, a third party that has no connection to us. Right. So going to the U haul website and understanding what that estimate is going to be, that is very legitimate and it's objective and it really makes the case for you in that way. And then you think about how companies would say, yeah, this, this thing only you $12.95 a month. And you say, oh, 12.95amonth, that's great. And then you go to the payment page and you say, oh, I can only pay like every year.

Okay, right, exactly. Every app does this to you. Right, exactly.

And so it seems, yeah, duh, of course I can do that. Then you get to that page, you're like, oh, that's what the full cost is. But I mean, it's only 12 bucks a month. I can do that. Right. And I think that's a great technique that we can use here. That's pricing strategy essentially in this too. And so for a lot of listeners, they might have already downloaded it. But if you haven't yet, make sure to go to americannegotiationinstitute.comguide and download all of those free negotiation guides. Salary Negotiation is one of them, One of the 15 negotiation guides that you could use to make these negotiations easier. So check that out. This is great. And I think. Is that the last point we have about candidates?

Yes, that is.

Okay, perfect. So let's use this as an opportunity to segue to the client side. So what are the things that we need to consider when you're negotiating? Negotiating with the client?

Sure. So first and foremost, your attitude is really important. A lot of people are so happy to finally have somebody on the client side that is, you know, willing to work with them, use their help as a recruiter to help them find the right candidate, that they become more of an order taker. You're not sitting there taking somebody's order. This is a partnership level thing. So you want to make sure you're letting them know this is a partnership. Little things like even just using the words partnership can go a long way. But really you want to make sure you're listening to what their Needs are you're creating that trust and you know, you want to make sure you're separating yourself from others and other kinds of recruiters by letting them know what, what you will do to help. Again, it's a partnership, so it goes to your whole attitude of how you're displaying yourself. So a couple areas that you can utilize to actually help yourself at demonstrate this partnership. Right. I call it flexing your knowledge of the area that you're recruiting in. It's always helpful. People will view you more as a partner and not as an order taker. When you can sit there and tell them about, you know, what other recruiters are charging industry average in that area, what industry needs are in that area, ways you can help them in their recruiting strategy, just in general, whether it's through recruiter or not. But flexing your recruiter knowledge and your industry knowledge is going to help them see you as this partner. Even just a small difference, like saying what you are seeing in the market versus saying what you are hearing in the market can have a big impact. Right. That it's implied and hearing in the market that you're having these conversations and seeing seems a little more third party ish, like you're not really doing the work. So I try to always say, you know what I'm hearing in the market and things like that and it makes a big difference. You can even help, you're there to help the client solve a problem. Right. You're not an order taker, you're a problem solver. So don't be afraid to think outside of the box either. So a real life example that I encountered is I had a client who had a tight budget left for the year, but they desperately needed a role filled thinking outside the box and having some of the industry knowledge I had, I looked into it and that particular position, the person didn't have to work in the office to actually make that position happen. So at the end of the day we, we realized, you know, you, that's a salary was a bit low. But if they were actually able to have the person work remotely, that salary was fantastic in Texas, New Mexico, et cetera, which is actually exactly what ended up happening. We found him, somebody who was able to work remotely in another state and it was a win win for everybody.

Yeah. So let's review a couple of these things because you just dropped a lot of bombs there. These were really good. I never thought about that distinction between what I'm seeing versus what I'm hearing. And when you first started saying it, I Was like, oh, what's the difference? It's the same thing. Then you explained it more. I said, wow, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Because when you're saying you're hearing something right, you're in the know, people are actually maybe seeking you out to tell you those types of things, which also implies, like, on a deeper level, you might be privy to information that other people are not. And it does a really great job of setting you apart. And then, of course, by being creative and curious, you're putting yourself in a position with that example that you gave to come up with creative solutions that create legitimate win wins for everybody. Thinking outside the box can, can put you in a better position for success. And it's like we always say on the show, the more paths to victory you have, the more likely you are to achieve victory and you're creating new opportunities for yourself by approaching it in a different way.

Exactly. And sometimes the implied meaning of words can just have such an impact. Just the difference in how that one word makes you feel, you know, just you're hearing it in the market makes you feel like this person is interacting more than just seeing it. Another one, actually, I got this from one of your other podcasts and it was, yes, pain points are of course important, but letting people know what you can do with the added personnel or the, what the fee is actually going to be able to do for their bottom line. So imagining what they can do with the numbers can take you places. So, for example, like, yes, you want to focus on their pain point. Right. What happens if you, you know, you aren't able to fill this position? What's going to happen to your existing staff? What situation will you be in if you're short staffed or if you have to, you know, hand this off to another, you know, counsel to handle this issue for you. But at the end of the day, if imagining what you can do if you actually hire this person, sure, the fee is X amount, but how much more will they be able to bring in? You know, you're searching for this partner for your firm, but if they have a portable book of business, sure, the fee is X amount, but you can make how much more money with this portable book of business that they were able to bring into your law firm? So allowing them to talk to you about what they can do with this added increased compensation from filling this position and letting them imagine that can make the fees seem not as significant in the end.

Yeah, that's smart. That's smart. Because what you're doing is you're helping them imagine a better future.

Right, Exactly.

It's not just understanding how bad the past was or how bad the present is. It's we're trying to go someplace positive. Right. And I think with any type of persuasion, there needs to be a little bit of both. And depending on the person on the other side, they're going to respond differently to different approaches. And if you're able to diversify, your persuasive approach in this situation is going to, again, make it more likely for you to eventually hit that point that really moves the needle for them.

So it's really about, you know, overcoming those objections that you see. Right. One of the biggest objections you're going to get on the client side, the employer side, is the fee. Right. So that is probably one of the best strategies for overcoming it that not so many people use. Because everyone always tells you focus on the pain point, which is important. Right. You want to focus on that. But allowing them to imagine what you can bring to the table with this extra assistance, the new attorney, the partner with the law firm, the paralegal, imagining how that's going to help them and is going to take you so much farther.

Right? Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. Again, just essentially you're reminding them that it's an investment. Yeah, you would have to pay a bit now, but there's a reason why you're doing it. And again, focusing them on that when they start to go to an area or a topic that's problematic or seems to be a sticking point to them, I think is a good way to refocus them and keep the conversation moving in a productive way.

Another good one, again for overcoming objections, is the power of options. Right. So if you're. And this is a huge one, I said earlier we would touch back on making sure you're not being manipulative, but giving people the power of options. So for a good classic example, what I'm talking about is different payment plans. Again, biggest objection is the fee. So different payment plans. You know, you could pay us option A, 10 days after the person's start date. Option B, pay half on start date half, 30 days out or 60 days out. Or option C, pay a third on the start date, pay a third on 30 days and a third on 60 days, or something of that nature. Giving them three options that all three options work for you, and there are three paths to getting the job done helps them feel like they've had a bigger impact in the role of the negotiating. And all three options help you constructively get this job done. Because at the end of the day it could be an objection that's more budget facing. Right. So, yeah, quarter one, we can't afford to do this, but in Q2 we can. So if we split the payment or delay the payment, maybe we can make this deal happen. So being creative in the options you're giving them and giving options in the negotiation, it doesn't just have to be for payment plans or start dates. It could be a number of other things. That's just my go to example, really can help give power back to the other negotiator in this because there's two people negotiating and if you're giving it to the other side, it really helps them see the different opportunities. On how we can get to a yes.

Yeah, that's great. And I tell you, the power of options, it's great again, for the reasons that you described, gives people a sense of autonomy and control. They feel as though they can look and see their fingerprint on the deal, which makes it more likely for them to appreciate the deal and then comply down the road and say yes. Right. Another thing I like to do a slight variation on this is if they don't accept one of those three options, for example, if they say, yeah, I'm not really liking any of those options, the next question I ask is, well, of these three, which one do you like the most? Because with that response, you get a lot of information. A lot of information. All right, Is it a situation where it's the total number that's the problem? Is it? Do they need more time? Right. But based on the option that they choose, you can start to determine what the sticking point is, what the true roots of the objection is, and then you can start to be creative from that piece of information as well.

That's brilliant. Actually. I didn't know that. I'm going to add that to my arsenal. I love that I'm constantly learning new things. And if anyone listening to this has any tips on things I don't know, please feel free to share them with me. I mean, I think we're always learning and growing and the more, you know, the merrier. So please feel free to share any tips with me that you might come across as well in recruiting. But I love that one.

Thanks. Yeah, I tell people all the time. I mean, what, like 240 episodes? And I teach this all the time. Every time I talk to somebody on the show, I'm learning something new. There's just no end to the depth of knowledge that you can have. In this, in this realm, when it comes to negotiation, persuasion, leadership, those type of things, I think that's what's the most fun about this.

Yeah. You know, I've been listening to your podcast for a while and I've learned several things. As I mentioned throughout this, some of the things I brought up were things I learned during your episodes that helped me later in my recruiting process. I actually, just at the start of the pandemic, my boyfriend and I bought a car from the tips from your podcast and we got a stellar price on it. A great deal, like a steal on this car. It was fantastic. So thank you for your help there.

My pleasure. My pleasure. Oh, that's great. Well, great. What other techniques have you found to be useful in the negotiations that you have with clients?

Sure. So one of my other favorites is having a specific number. And for that, I mean, really, it comes more into play for a counter offer part. But for example, let's say your fee is 25,000. They say, hey, we can't do 25,000. So you come back say, look, I talked about it with my leader, et cetera. We were able to come down to 24,845. Right. That's just a smaller number, but it's specific. It's not some flat number. So you have to wonder how many calculations went into that, you know, what's behind that specific of a number. And sometimes there is a lot that goes into that. Right. There's marketing you have to do on the forefront. There is, you know, advertising, reaching out, man hours put in beforehand. So of course that's where the number comes from. Market trends, what the average is for your team, what the average is for recruiters in the area, they're not totally out of thin air numbers, but coming back with something more specific or if you're working on a fee percentage instead of a flat fee. Right. If you're working on a percentage fee, you know, instead of 25%, we can do this for 24.37%. Right. It's a specific number and it's. It gives the implication of how many more calculations went into giving you that number.

Yeah, that's a. That is an expert level technique.

So the last one I'd really want to touch on is, is saying no. And so that goes both when you need to say no and knowing when someone else needs to say no and accepting that with grace because your reputation is everything. So stepping into accepting with grace first, you know, if I'm not saying don't advocate, because you certainly should Always advocate and try as much as you want for saying. For saying no. You want to make sure you're not shoving a square peg into a round hole. If you don't want to take a job order just out of the fact that you're so excited to finally get a job order, if you know that it's either you're not going to be able to really fill that, or this person taking this job is not really a true fit, don't just do it because there's a potential for money or money on the line. At the end of the day, the candidate won't be happy, the client won't be happy, or if you're not able to find anybody for the job, the client won't be happy. They'll think less of you and more importantly, your company, and it damages your name and the company's name. So just make sure that you know when to say, you know, thank you so much for thinking of us. You know, I don't think that this position is something that we could fill for you and then give them alternatives, you know, help them out. And then same with the candidate and client if you have an opportunity. And you just think, I know this isn't truly the right deal for this candidate. You don't want them to feel like, this recruiter kind of bullied me into taking this job and now I'm not happy because they're not going to want to refer their friends to you or come back to you if they need a new job in the future. It's really important. This industry is smaller than you think, and your reputation is one of the biggest things you have in your back pocket.

Yeah, this is huge. And really what it comes down to is this negotiation isn't the art of deal making. It's the art of deal discovery. Not all deals are meant to be made right. And sometimes no is the right answer. And there's no shame in that. No shame in that.

Exactly.

You have to play the long game. Because if you say, if you are letting people know, actually, you know what, for your sake, I don't think this is in your best interest. Then again, like you said, the reputation matters and it'll put you in a better position in the future.

Exactly. And kind of with that in mind, the long game, graciously accepting a no if a, you know, a client's like, hey, you know, we really love all you've presented to us, but we're going to go with this candidate instead, or, hey, you know, we just can't make this Deal happen this time or whatever about your contract, we can't get, we can't get to a yes with that one either. Knowing when to say no and doing it with grace. So of course give your last pitch for your candidate. You know, I'm not saying give up by any means, but knowing when you've done all you can and saying thank you so much for your time, please let us know if we can help again in the future, etc. Sometimes they may not know all the work that went in on your end, but kind of over laying that on them and you know, hey, we've put in this many hours, we had this many people, that's not going to make anybody comfortable. It's really not the time and the place for that conversation with them. So instead taking that no with grace and just thanking them in the future because otherwise they may consciously or subconsciously avoid you if you make them feel uncomfortable or like you're guilt tripping them. And you might not ever hear from them again. Or they might not let their friends know when they have a need, hey, you should contact this company. They did a really great job or I think really well of them. So you want to make sure you're accepting a no with class as well.

Yep, that's huge. Because we talk about persistence and the power of persistence a lot on the show, especially in sales. You hear about it and never taking no for an answer, which, oh my gosh, it might sound okay from the salesperson's perspective, but if you've ever dealt with a salesperson who didn't take no for an answer, you feel annoyed, disrespected, unappreciated, unheard. Right. It really does damage. And so there's really an art to that understanding when you've reached your limit and then recognizing when it's time to stop and put yourself in a position again for the future so you're not damaging your relationship. I think that's a fantastic point.

Right. And there may be some industries where that is a little bit more of an appropriate, you know, approach. Something that, you know, once you, once the person buys the product, they might not need to come back, you know, but it's still word of mouth always matters. So you got to know, I mean, always fight for your candidate and always make your pitches. But once you've said all you can say on behalf of that candidate or behalf of your company, you need to know when you've exhausted your efforts. And even in sports, they shake hands when they get off the field, no matter who Wins and loses.

Exactly. Fantastic. Well, great. Let's go to the third point now, which is the negotiation with the gatekeepers. And I think this is often the difficult conversation that is not respected as much. And when I think about the word respect in this context, I'm thinking about the word respect in terms of the preparation and the amount of gravity you put in the conversation. We take it for granted and then the conversation doesn't go well. And so what are the things we have to consider when it comes to negotiating with the gatekeepers?

So I mean, the gatekeepers are humans too. And that's probably one of the biggest things, is you want to show graciousness and humanity to them as well, because they're people with important jobs and busy schedules and similar pressures. If you get the opportunity to make small talk, do so. My go to is always the weather because everyone wants to commiserate on the weather. But anything that might come up, and I keep a little, little folder of notes and details that I learned so that I can ask again. Hey, you mentioned your son Charlie was applying to grad school. How's that going? You know, so build a relationship with them if you're able to. More often, you'll hear that you're not able to. And that's the biggest challenge, right, is that a lot of times people are quick to say, nope, he' not available right now, or yeah, I can forward you to his voicemail or something. And you never actually get the opportunity to speak to the person on the other end or I'll take a message and I'll leave it with him. And you don't know, are they really leaving it with him? So there's a couple, couple tricks to that that I've come up with and if anybody out there has others again, please let me know. I'd love to learn too, because I'd say this is actually one of the most overlooked but more difficult tasks. So things like you've emailed, if you've emailed them, letting them know that, hey, I've been in touch with so and so over email doesn't necessarily mean they responded. It means you sent the email. You've been in touch over email, right? Or you know, over the phone. You know, I just wanted to follow up on our last communication that we had together. Again, does not necessarily mean that they said yes or that, you know, that you guys have a very in depth conversation that you've already gotten to the meat and potatoes of what you need to talk about. But it's still a communication and you still following up, so letting them know those kind of words can help. And lastly, you know, if you have to figure out ways to bypass the gatekeeper, most company email addresses are pretty formulaic so you can figure it out. You are in hot water if it's like John Adams one something because then you have to guess the number or their middle name initial. It's a bit much. But most company emails are formulaic so you can bypass them or try to talk to an operator and see if they can connect you directly. And reaching out via LinkedIn or Twitter, that can always help. You can reach out directly to the person. I don't recommend reaching out to Facebook. If people have pictures of their family, it's gonna feel more like you're invading their privacy. Right. I mean even if they don't have pictures of their family on Facebook, Facebook is more personal and so don't do that one. But LinkedIn and Twitter, if they're using it in a more. If they're an active Twitter user, I'd go for it. If they use it every once in a while, it's just not a high chance of them responding because they may never check it. But LinkedIn is good. That's what it's for. You know, it's there to reach out in a professional level to people. So reaching out directly over LinkedIn is always a good thing to keep in your arsenal.

Yeah, that's really smart. That is really smart. And I even think about, you could take this a little bit further too. If you recognize that down the road you could potentially want to have a conversation with this person. It might not be an immediate type of thing. Then you could start to be more active in their network by commenting liking. So your name is coming up more often. So it's more, there's more familiarity. And so when you do make that, that request or you ask for an audience, whatever it might be, it's not just this random person off the street. It's like oh yeah, we have a little bit of, a little bit of a virtual relationship. Right.

There's a cadence going on there. Rapport.

Exactly. Yeah. It makes it a little bit more likely and comfortable for them to connect.

Exactly. So building friendship over LinkedIn is something to do whole podcasts about. But making sure that you are, you know exactly what you said. Taking that passive person and trying to actively their network in a non creepy way. Right. Commenting liking substantive things don't just be like oh great post, I mean that's nice. But if you actually say hey, I really like that you talked about xyz. I think that's really important. Giving substantive comments and showing a bit of who you are can really build a relationship all online.

Absolutely. Good deal. And going a bit deeper on the point of circumventing the gatekeeper, because again, that's something that people often think about. So we have the social media approach, which I think is great. That's outside the box. Any other techniques that you've seen work well in this.

Really, other than guessing the emails and trying an operator to connect you, then I'm still open to any other suggestions other people may have.

Nice. Yeah, no, that email one is actually. I've heard that one used before and somebody. I. I remember hearing a story about it. Somebody was able to get to the CEO of this really large company just by saying, well, these are my three best guesses. I'll send the email to all of them.

I've done it and it worked.

That's incredible. That is really cool. Well, yeah. Anything else before we go?

You know, other than that? If anybody would like to reach out, whether you are. Have other tips in recruiting and negotiating you want to share with me, I would love that. Or whether you yourself are. Or an attorney or a paralegal, someone who works in compliance that might be looking for a new position or have needs for somebody like that, please reach out to me. My LinkedIn is going to be available and it is LinkedIn.com lawjobs that's my URL is lawjobs. So feel free to reach out to me. It's Haley Harrison on LinkedIn.

Fantastic, Haley, thank you so much for this. We really appreciate it.

Thank you for having me.

My pleasure. Congratulations. You've just joined an elite club by listening to a full episode. You're now officially on the Negotiate Anything team. So welcome aboard. What most team members do is they subscribe to the podcast because that allows them to automatically get the latest episodes of the show. The best things in life lie on the other side of difficult conversations. Keep learning, keep practicing, and keep getting better. Your relationships will improve, your career will soar, and you'll have the confidence you need to get the most out of these crucial conversations. Again, thank you for joining the team. We're excited to have you, and I will see you in the next episode. I'll catch you later.