How to Build a Strategic Narrative for Negotiations With Lisa Gates

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. Thanks for joining us today. With over 10 million downloads and listeners from more than 180 different countries, it's dedicated listeners just like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of the American Negotiation Institute. Now, before we get into today's insightful conversation, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives. Have you ever found yourself wishing that you could navigate those high stakes conversations with more confidence? Or perhaps you're looking to empower your team with the art of persuasion and conflict resolution? At the American Negotiation Institute, we've crafted specialized keynotes and workshops tailored for those very needs. We've transformed the negotiation skills of professionals worldwide and we're eager to do the same for you. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And our goal is to help you improve your lives and the lives of those around you, one difficult conversation at a time. Don't let another challenging conversation leave you second guessing. Click the link in the description to discover how we can help you find confidence in conflict, negotiate better deals, and have stronger relationships. Because in the world of business, every conversation counts. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview.

Lisa, thanks for joining us today.

You're welcome. My pleasure to be here.

Yeah, it is our pleasure to have you, my friend. So how about you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Thank you. Thank you. Well, I guess the way to answer that is that I have been helping women their influence and thought leadership so that they can be seen, heard, promoted and paid probably for about 20 years. But sometimes I think I've been doing this my entire life. I've just turned it into a coaching business with story happens here for about the last 16 years. Prior to that, I ran she Negotiates with my business partner and we were focused almost entirely on compensation kinds of conversations and strategies and teaching and training and that kind of thing. And one of my superpowers is pattern noticing. I'm a big pattern noticer. So what I was noticing with my clients at she Negotiates was that they really, women really had a hard time building a narrative, building their narrative, knowing how to talk about themselves without stumbling or thinking that they were, you know, egregiously self promoting. And that really required getting sort of negotiating with yourself, understanding your intrinsic Value and, you know, your values, your strengths, some of the repeating themes that you know are happening in your work life and getting ahold of all of that so that you can add value and also increase your market value. Right. So that's pretty much now the focus of my work.

This is great. Yeah. And it's important work. It's important work. And the great thing about what you do is that obviously it is great for advancing women and helping them to get paid what they deserve and move forward in their careers. And then before some of the men listening say, well, I'm out. No, this is information that is good for you, too. Building your story, worry and negotiating effectively is something you can do as well. And so I want everybody to stay and listen. And let's not forget, also, let's shout out the work you're doing with Beyond Barriers, too.

Oh, thank you. Yeah. Beyond Barriers is a relatively new organization that was founded to level up women in the workplace, get them into leadership roles, increase their pay, and really close the wage and leadership gaps in less than. What is it now that the World Economic Forum says something like 247 years? So they're really trying, they're working at scale to change the numbers. So I've been very excited to work with them. It's been really great.

Awesome. And everybody, there'll be links in the description to all of that in the podcast episode description. And so let's set the stage for the episode today. So we're going to focus on three main things. First, narrative building, how to frame your value and promise at the pre negotiation stage. And then second, we're going to talk about strategizing for these important conversations, which is always important. And then lastly, we're going to talk about hacks for navigating implicit and explicit biases. And in that portion, Lisa's going to provide a case study for us to analyze. And we're actually going to work that out here and see if we can find some solutions. So when we talk about narrative building, Lisa, what does that mean in the context of a negotiation?

Yeah, good, Good question. You know, as a lawyer, you know, you might start something with an opening statement, right. To sort of frame the situation and direct people's attention in a certain way. And so let's say you're at the. You've been offered or you're going, you're asking for a promotion, let's say. Right. I like to really simplify things. So that initial statement is a narrative about yourself that frames your strengths. So I bring X, Y and Z to the table. And in the past year, I've deployed those and created certain kinds of results, right? Maybe with numbers and percentages. And this year, I'm poised to deliver X for the company or for the team. And I believe that's worthy of a promotion to the type, you know, a new title and a raise of 20%, right? So you're. You're framing. You're. You're talking about your strengths in a positive way, in the way that they add value. And you're ending with a request. You're ending with your. Your ask, right? So I have to tell you, you know how I learned that was quite accidental. And as I learned more and read more about negotiation, I realized, wow, I have been doing this a very long time and didn't realize it, but we were talking about commute earlier on, and I was an actress and an improv. Improv person. And so that meant that I was usually unemployed. So I had to. I had to have a real job. And I worked in. In marketing and pr. So I got this new job, and I have a commute that's like 10, 12 miles, but it would take me an hour, an hour and a half to get there. And I'm new to the job. I'm there about three weeks, and I go into my boss and I say, I'm sorry, I have to quit. I cannot do this job. This is just not going to work. And I break into tears and the whole thing, and I'm blubbering, and my boss says, lisa, is there a question in there? And I just sort of blanked and said, no, I don't know what you mean. It took me a while to figure out why he was asking me that. He says, there's got to be a question. Ask me a question. What do you want? And I said, all right, I'd like to come to work at 10 or 11 and leave at 6 or 7. How would that be? And he said, all right, okay. And he said, but here's the thing. Why would that benefit me? What's in it for me? And I said, well, you know, it's. We're all focused on new business presentations. And I said, well, I can be the one who buttons up and make sure that everything's ready to roll, that our decks are in order, that everything is ready, and so I'll be your closer. And he said, that's it. Okay. So the next time you come to me with a problem, I want you to have a solution in mind, and I want you to ask me for Something and know why it's a benefit to me. So that was early on, a very collaborative approach to negotiation. Right.

That's a great story. It's such a cool story because essentially, there's so many different ways that we can go about this. Right. Because in that situation, you did not approach it as a negotiation. And one of the things that we talk about in this podcast all the time is that we are constantly negotiating. The definition I like to use is anytime you're in a conversation and somebody in the conversation wants something, you should think about that as a negotiation. So we're always negotiating. Other people in the world, they don't think about it that way. And what your boss showed you in that instance is that even if the other person isn't approaching it as negotiation, you can lead the conversation and turn it into a negotiation. He did it very explicitly, but we can do it more subtly. And so when you think about building that narrative, how do we do that when the other side doesn't seem as though they are trying to approach it in the same kind of way as a negotiation?

Wow. I have so many thoughts to that. I think if you understand that you're going to be asking for something, if you know that, then there's some preparation you can do to kind of develop your framing and think about what the other person's needs and wants and interests are. You know, what's important to them. We know the first part of the work is understanding what's important to ourselves. What do we want? Right. And really knowing that and knowing, like you always talk about, what's your bat now? What. What are you going to do if you don't get what you want? Well, was I going to quit? I probably would have because there were other fish in the sea. I could get another job. That's not always the case for people. Right. You can't just up and leave. You have a family. You know, at the time, I didn't. I wasn't. I was very, very young. But I think when you're in the middle of a conversation, you can pause and sort of acknowledge what's happening in the room and ask questions to get at where the stops are. Right. What's happening? Why are we at loggerheads right now?

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Yeah, absolutely. Often in my negotiation trainings and when I was teaching at the law school and the business school, I told the students, I say, hey, listen, I'm going to ask you a lot of questions. You're not going to always know the answer to my questions. But I tell you, if you don't know the answer to my question, if you just raise your hand and say, ask an open ended question, you're probably going to be right. A lot of times that's really all it takes to get things moving in the right direction. In these conversations, I used to say.

Just put your lips in the shape of a W and see what comes out right. Maybe just lead yourself into a what. Even if you don't know what's coming next, you'll trigger something. It's a good way to start practicing and to remind yourself, wait. Don't just start defending or persuasively arguing. Ask questions first and you'll learn so much more about the other person and where your common ground may be. Right?

Absolutely. And so, Lisa, I want to go a bit deeper into this narrative building phase. And so with narrative building, we are shaping the conversation. We're taking an opportunity to frame the narrative in a way that is productive and at the same time beneficial to us. So what are some of the key things to keep in mind as we are framing the narrative before the meat of the negotiation actually begins?

Well, using a promotion conversation again, or even asking for a raise or something like that. The work that goes into building your narrative is to doggedly understand what your strengths are. What do you bring to the party you always using to add value to the workplace that's unique to you. Right. So it's kind of like your unique value proposition that is derived from looking at all of your past experiences. So if you were to wander through your resume right now and you analyze it for your strengths and your values and those repeating themes, you're going to come up with a collection of words and phrases that might repeat throughout. And those are your, those are triggers, those are little clues as to what the building blocks of your narrative are. Right. So, and I always tell people, write it out. I want you to write it. And then I want you to learn how to speak it. So they're very different animals. And you know, a written version of it is something that you might put on your LinkedIn profile or your headline. Right? My, my headline says I help women develop their thought, leadership and influence so that they could be seen, heard, promoted and paid. So that's kind of a little bit of marketing language. But, but it's still, I'm not saying to you, hey, I'm, I'm a coach. I'm an executive coach. Well, that doesn't tell you anything about me. Right. So it's, it's more about my why and what I'm passionate about and, you know, changing the wage and leadership gaps for women. Right. And then the second piece of that is a deeper kind of more expanded statement that helps people understand how you deliver value, how, how you, how you deploy your strengths in the workplace. So that's kind of the foundation of it and something that I have noticed time and time again. I think, wow, this is so rudimentary. This is so basic. And one day one of my clients is going to say, I'm not doing this. This is baby stuff. I've never heard that, ever. I've never heard. Never have they put the brakes on. Because most of us, not just women, we get into the workplace, we put our head down and we never look back and we don't reevaluate where we are and kind of how we've grown and developed. And in a way that we can speak about ourselves confidently as a benefit to the other person sitting across from us. We're going to help you. Right? I'm going to help you accomplish your goals.

Yeah, I think this is great. And it ties seamlessly into our second point, which is strategizing about these important conversations. Because this is something you've mentioned a number of times just organically in our conversation here, Lisa, where we're talking about, you have to prepare because we are not going into these conversations freestyling and hoping for the best. You know, these things don't happen well by accident. It takes some level of preparation and strategy. And so when you think about the work that we need to do before these difficult conversations, what does that look like to you?

Yeah, you know, I think about solving like an interpersonal conflict with someone, perhaps, or even a money negotiation. No matter. You have to think about what the objections to your requests might be. Right. And prepare answers to that. And sometimes it's open ended questions first before your answer. So you might anticipate nobody's getting A raise this year. What's your response to that going to be? Right. And first you might ask a question like, how is that? So tell me why? What's happening in the business to make that impossible this year? And then you have an answer coming your way and you're going to use that to pivot and provide sort of your response to that. So I like to prepare for all of those possible objections and set out, okay, first you're going to little small talk and you're going to acknowledge the other person for something, say something that connects you to. And then you're going to move into your opening statement and then you're going to ask an open ended question at the end of your opening statement. And then the rest is sort of in my mind, improvising with what gets, what happens first. But as long as you've prepared for it, I always tell people, look, it's human conversation, it can go any direction. But as long as you've prepared, you can kind of pivot to the answer that you'd like to give in that section, right? Or to reframing an objection. So that's kind of a long winded answer to your question.

No, this is great. And I think one of the values having you in particular answering this particular question is your background as an actor and your background doing improv too, because that's a term that you just used here because you said, yes, I'm going to strategize, I'm going to plan, I'm going to prepare, I'm going to know what I'm going to say next and I'm going to know the questions that I'm going to ask and I'm going to know those objections and I'll be prepared for those too. But you said I have to be ready to improvise. And I think for a lot of people that seems almost contradictory to what you're saying, because they think improvisation is just like winging it, but it's clearly not. So how can you blend your preparation with your willingness to go with the flow in the conversations?

Practice, practice, practice. Right? Practice with friends, practice with me, practice with anybody and have them throw you curveballs and see how you know if you can think on your feet. One of the things I, whenever I was teaching negotiation or working with a client, I would say, if you really, really want to get good at this, take an improv class. Because here's the little secret that people may not know about improvisation is you practice games, right? And so you think about what is it, what's my line anyway. Or that improv show where they're singing, they give them, you know, some sort of style of music, maybe it's rap, maybe it's a musical and they just start singing. Well, they have practice all these different musical styles many, many times. Right. Or they practice different improv games, you know, ad infinitum. So that when you're where you're in front of an audience and somebody says, okay, you're in Texas and you're a used car salesman, that you roll with it and it's the old yes and right. Where you say yes and it's hot as hell and boy, I don't think I'm gonna sell one car today. Right. So it's really practice is what makes you able to think on your feet and not stumble around. And also it's what helps you be creative in the moment. You know, especially if you're at an impasse, you're stuck. That might be the time to open up the door to, well, let's see, let's brainstorm a bit here and see how we can meet each other's needs.

Absolutely. It's a great way to break through impasse. And here's. That's one of the benefits of seeing every interaction as a version of a negotiation. Because now every conversation becomes an opportunity to practice. And I think a lot of times people get too rigid. They get too rigid in their approach. It's not just that they are rigid in terms of the outcome. This is the only pathway to success. They're saying, no, this is the only pathway for this conversation. And the thing is, conversations don't always follow our own rules. There's always going to be a surprise. And so you have to be flexible in these really difficult conversations.

Yeah. And people aren't always straightforward about what they want either. And sometimes, you know, there's hidden agendas and you know, there might be constraints that you're unaware of or things that they're not able to reveal to you that make it difficult to, to get anywhere. Right. And so the more curious, the more curiosity you bring and the more question answer asking you do open ended question asking leads you closer to understanding what those constraints might be. And you know, sometimes people are just hardball and they're not going to let you in and it's time to pause.

Absolutely, that certainly happens. But again, I think one of the things that's helped me is switching that assumption to, oh, I definitely know what they're saying. I definitely know where they're coming from. I definitely Understand all of their potentially hidden agendas. No, I'm going to assume that I don't. And that humility triggers more curiosity, genuine curiosity, because I'm asking questions and actually genuinely trying to find the answer, because I'm assuming that I don't know what it is.

And you talk about that a lot, too. You know, the three. I forget what you call it, but. But the piece that you're talking about is. Is repeating back what you hear, right? Just a basic listening response skill. Like what I think I heard you say is abc. Is that right? I mean, it seems so fundamental, but if you. You really notice it when you skip over it.

Exactly, exactly. That's the thing. The fundamentals never go out of style. Right. And they're there for a reason. They're there for a reason. And with the time we have left, I want to give us an opportunity to talk about navigating implicit and explicit bias, because this is something that's coming up a lot. And the reality is, when I think about bias, that bias is really just the natural state of the brain. We all have biases about everything. Right. I'm biased about the way that we do the podcast, right. Because I was two minutes late because I was very finicky about my microphone. Maybe other people can't tell which microphone I use, but I know. So I'm going to. It's going to affect my decision making. And so that's a very innocuous version, but there are different levels. And so with your scenario, how about you take a moment, set the stage, and then let's talk through what solutions might exist.

Yeah. This is a little case study that is circumstance that a client of mine has been having for some time. So let me set the stage. She is from another country. She has an accent. She is brown. She's also short. And when she gets excited or passionate or angry, her voice goes up in pitch very, very high. Right. And sometimes people misinterpret. You know, they think she's angry or she's being adamant or too, you know, emotional, when really she's excited about something or she wants something. So she's had a lot of pushback, a lot of resistance. People thinking that she's commandeering and demanding and if I may say this bitchy, bossy, demanding. Those are some of the words and phrases that have been leveled against her. So I thought maybe the two of us could ideate how we can help her not be discounted.

Yeah, absolutely. And so this is close to my heart because my family is originally from The Caribbean. So I'm a first generation Caribbean American. So breaking through barriers, culturally, that's something that my family had to go through. This story actually reminds me of one of my friends. Her name is Luann and she is Italian. She lives in New Jersey. She was telling me this story where she said that somebody in her company was transitioning out into a new role, that they had a really great relationship. It was just time to move on. She was willing to help with the transition. And so she left this notebook for the next person to come in and take over and be really seamless. And at the bottom of the notebook, she wrote this little note, and it said, luann is not yelling. And she said, what does that mean? Luann isn't yelling. What does that mean? She asked her, hey, what do you mean by that? She said, well, it took me a long time to get to understand this, but when you get excited, your voice elevates. You're a lot louder. And so I thought you were mad a lot of the times, but then as I started to get to know you, this is just who you are. You just get excited. She's like, I'm Italian. This is how we talk. This is how we talk, right? And so with that situation, let's talk about bias, right? Because at the beginning, we have a data point, and then we are going to use our previous experiences to determine how we're going to interpret that. Does that mean that those experiences are invalid? No, it just means that it doesn't necessarily apply to this situation, but we assume it does based on our previous experiences. That's a bias, Right? Exactly. And so as they had more positive interactions, then those negative biases were overtaken with positive biases. I now know Luann. This is how she is. It's not a threat. Right? And so. So a lot of times what I've seen work well in the past is we have potentially two big options. We have an option where you recognize you're in a new culture. You can adjust. Some people call that code switching. So I say, all right, I'm in a new culture. I am going to adjust myself in order to fit into that situation. Some people don't feel comfortable doing that. So there's option B. And this is what I would call a humble disclaimer. Before I start to have an interaction with somebody, I'll just say, hey, by the way, this is the way I respond. And once you see this response, this is how you should interpret it. Other people have interpreted it in this way, but I want to tell you what it means before you see it so you can interpret it properly.

I love that. I love that. That's brilliant. It's really setting expectations, right? Managing expectations, which is one of the things with this particular woman. This is part of the path that we took, was to set the table, tell people who you are and what you're like and what happens when you get excited and what happens, you know, when you get angry. And another thing you know this for in this particular case was to see if I could help her ground her voice, get her voice into her belly. Right. So, like when someone is nervous or excited and they're not conscious of it, it's gonna go. You're gonna go rise in pitch. But let's see if, when you notice this is happening, if you could do the opposite. So I would get her to stand up, plant her feet on the ground and consciously drop her voice like this. And she sounded very funny. But after a while, it became kind of second nature to her. So there's. But everything that we're saying, you know, I'm having this sensation right now that, you know, the onus is always on us. When is it the other person's responsibility to do some growing and to do some noticing that you actually are sitting in your bias, you actually are having an expectation. It reminds me of the Hamilton. The line in Hamilton when. When Burr is kind of meeting or talking to Hamilton and he says, talk less, smile more, don't. What is it? Don't let them know what you're against or what you're for. That was his advice to Hamilton. And I think we women are always being told, talk less, smile more. Don't be too invasive, don't be loud, don't take up space. Right. And it's annoying, it's irritating, because sometimes that's all we want to do.

Yes. So there's so many different ways we can go with this. Let's talk about this. Let's talk about this important thing. Like earlier I said, conversations often don't follow our rules. Psychology often doesn't follow our rules. Psychology by itself is not inclusive. At the end of the day, we are animals. We're primates. We're social beings. You know, we're territorial. We are tribal by nature. This is how we are. And we try to talk about diversity, equity and inclusion in order to elevate ourselves so we don't fall victim to these psychological tendencies. So the natural state of humanity isn't that great. That's why we have laws. Right? Right. So let's. Let's just start there. So I want to acknowledge that. And so. So when we approach these situations, we have to recognize that persuasion, communication, connection, all those things, we have to recognize that they're going to be governed by the laws of psychology and not the laws that we set for what we consider to be proper human decor. And so what we have to do is we have to think about, what is it that I'm comfortable doing, what lines do I have? What are my values? What do I consider to be authentic? What am I willing to do? So, like, for instance, I made a poll yesterday or earlier this week about smiling. Because if you're smiling and nodding too much during a transactional negotiation, when you need to be assertive, a really hardcore negotiator will push harder because they're not taking you seriously. The conversation that was happening in the comments was essentially, are you willing to edit yourself in order to get better negotiation outcomes? Nobody was really questioning whether or not smiling and nodding and being too accommodating in that moment could lead to worse outcomes. The question was whether they were willing to make that edit. I think really what it comes down to is when we think about the negotiation strategies, we have to think about first level, what works. Second level, am I willing to do what works? And not saying, hey, do you have the will to win? But at the end of the day, when you have to go home and look at yourself in the mirror, are you okay with what you did, or did you feel like you were being inauthentic? And so I think everybody has to come to that conclusion themselves. And so different people will draw that line in different places.

That is a beautiful thing to take away. That's a great piece of learning for me to remember. You know, I was thinking we were talking earlier about this kind of. My. What I might do, I might never suggest to a client because I'm so different than they are. But my sort of M.O. when I was working and I would experience some kind of gaslighting or implicit bias of some kind or even explicit, was to call them out as it was happening. And having a good sense of humor helps. A little bit of wit will soften maybe the strength of the comeback. But I would say to someone, wow, did you just say that to me? Did you really just say that? That's. Ouch. That really hurts. Don't do that again. Or I might say, you know, if you're asking me to wear a dress tomorrow, you know, you know, a skirt for the presentation, I hope you're asking Joe to do that too, because. Right. Like what are you asking him to wear? So you know, that doesn't work for everyone. Right. And so understanding your point really was what am I willing, where am I willing to adjust in order to get the result I want? You know, so this whole time in the conversation I've been nodding my head a lot with everything that you said. And as soon as you were describing that, I went, oh, I better calm myself down and just like not nod. That's very.

Well, I'm not, I'm not pushing you to do anything so you can nod all you want, you know, but yeah, it's just one of those things that we have to consider. And then to the second point of your question that I forgot to address was there's a lot of self growth and adjustment that needs to happen on our part in order to be successful. And so for me, I always want to take responsibility because that makes me feel more empowered. So if I want to get the outcome that I want, then I want to believe that I can do things in order to make that happen. And then the second part of your question was, when is it on them to grow? And I think it's constantly on all of our, it's each of our responsibilities to grow through every interaction. Conversations like this should be transformational. And so, but again, you can't just, you know that that has to be something that they do. And a lot of times they don't have the self awareness, recognize that it's time to grow. And so going back to our trusty friend, the open ended question, I think that can help because when it comes to implicit biases, I mean per definition it's subconscious, they don't realize it. And so I would ask a question to raise that awareness. So I remember I was having a conversation with somebody and it was an athlete who was coming up to the podium to speak. And the person I was talking to said, well, I hope that they use proper English when they speak. And so there are a lot of ways I could go about that. And so all I did was this. I just asked the question, so what is it that makes you think they wouldn't use proper English when they speak? And then they thought about it for a second, they're like, oh, that was bad, I'm sorry, yeah, no, I'm sorry.

Yeah, they got it, they got it immediately. Right?

And that was it.

And there was no teaching necessary.

Right, Exactly. Super simple. Super simple. And so the relationship was still in a good spot and they appreciated the learning and they also appreciated the grace that was extended, not chastising them, because socially, I could have pushed that moral superiority and used that righteous indignation to bring down fire and brimstone. But I think shaming people into allyship isn't the best way to go.

That's right. Shaming really rarely works. Well, it does in some cases if people aren't cooperating at all. Right. Like a little slap on the wrist might bring them back into cooperation.

It just depends on the circumstances. Right?

Yeah.

And so for me, I'm always in business. In any difficult conversation, I'm a diplomacy first kind of guy. So I always want to give them the opportunity to comply on their own accord. And at the same time, I'm also a lawyer. And, you know, I tell people I have claws, but my claws are retractable. I'll give you the option first. Well, Lisa, I've really enjoyed this conversation. I completely lost track of time. I was having way too much fun. I hope you were, too. But before you go, can you remind the listeners about you, your company, and how they can get in touch with you?

Sure. My company is story happens here. Storyhappenshere.com and you might also want to check out beyondbarriers.co to see what that leadership program might do for you and your company. So I really appreciate being on the podcast. Thank you for inviting me. This has been a blast.

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