How to Build Trust and Negotiate Authentically with Luke Fedlam

Hello my friends, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. This show is produced by the American Negotiation Institute and with over 5 million downloads and listeners in over 180 countries, listeners just like you have made this the number one negotiation podcast in the world. Hi, my name is Kwame Christian and I am the founder and CEO of the American Negotiation Institute here at A&I we believe that the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations and we are passionate about providing you with the best content that will help you to make your difficult conversations easier both at work and at home. Lastly, I want to remind you that we offer consulting and conduct trainings both virtually and in person all around the world. Our focus is in three main areas. First, negotiation and conflict resolution. Second, leadership. And lastly, diversity, equity and inclusion. Check the link in the description below to learn more about how we could work with you and your team. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. So Luke has a really cool story because he came into law school with a lot of business experience with his own business and then was able to parlay that into a really great position coming straight out in a law firm. And now he's working with Scotts as a in house counsel. So he has a great professional journey. So just going to give the floor to him and you can just tell us more about it in more detail.

Sure, sure. Yeah, it's definitely been a journey. Sometimes I feel so, I feel so young and then I look back at my bio and I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm not that young anymore. But I saw I was, I went to undergrad at Wake Forest and when I was there I knew I wanted to just be done with school for a while and so I accepted a position at an investment firm. I publicly traded investment firm outside of Philadelphia with the whole thought of doing that for a year or two and then going into law school. And in doing that I just really enjoyed kind of digging deep into the business side and I got into finance and business and everything and law school kind of just took a back seat to that. And after kind of spending about five and a half or so years doing that, I had the opportunity to partner with a good friend of mine and launch a sports management firm down in Miami, Florida, working with professional athletes. And so obviously, you know, as we talk about negotiations and kind of keys to negotiating, you know, working with professional athletes is it's always a negotiation with everything you're trying to do. So we can get into that a little Bit I did that for about three and a half years and ended up leaving there due to kind of some random, random situation where I was also in the arm Army National Guard and was called into active duty for a year. And so after that I felt like that was the best time to just, if I was ever going to go to law school, like that was the time to just to do it because I had already broken away from the sports management firm. And so I went to law school, which is where I met this lawyer extraordinaire, Kwame, and was able to just enjoy the time of being back in academia. But knowing that I still missed, you know, the corporate side of things. I missed the, you know, being able to advise athletes in a different way. And so when I left the firm, when I left Ohio State Law School, I ended up working at a firm in Columbus and was able to very early on become their head of their sports and entertainment group and build out a practice area there, which when you talk about negotiations, the internal negotiations of a fresh out of law school student deciding to a new associate trying to build a practice area with attorneys that have been practicing for decades, that was, that was a lot of, a lot of negotiation and then ultimately that position. I spent my time doing sports entertainment as well as mergers and acquisitions work and then was fortunate to have an opportunity to go in house at Scott's Miracle Gro company. So I do, yes, have a very green lawn right now. And, and there all I do is negotiate. So we do transactions around the world. Acquisitions, divestitures, strategic partnerships, joint ventures all around the world. And so I get to get the joy really of negotiating with people here in the States as well as in other countries, which obviously adds a different perspective on negotiation tactics and strategy. So pretty in depth background, but definitely it's been a lot of fun over the years.

That's, that is great. And your story is really exciting, really exciting because like you said, starting in Miami, working with professional athletes, then to the big firm, then to the big company, I mean, you're professionally like living the dream of a lot of people. So that's, that's really cool. You mentioned when you were talking to, when you're dealing with athletes, you're always negotiating. So what kind of negotiations does that involve with your clients?

You're absolutely right. I mean, I think anytime you're in a, in a professional services industry, you're always negotiating with your client because you're there to provide them a service. But oftentimes they want to do X. And your professional background might say they really should do Y. And so whether you're a financial advisor like I was, or you're an attorney or you're an accountant or you're some other type of advisor, you have the professional perspective that they should make a certain decision. But now you have to convince your client to make that decision. And that decision might not be something comfortable. So let's make it real, right? So working with, working with athletes, especially as a financial advisor, clearly the biggest thing that I focused on was savings, right? How do you save and invest as opposed to spend and fall into the statistics of so many professional athletes who go broke. And so that negotiation of what should, you know, the client deciding what they should do with a signing bonus check, you know, wanting to go out and spend and buy the latest car or boat or you know, upgrade their house or do all these things where they're spending versus actually saving and putting that away, it's hard. And the reason that that in particular was hard as it relates to negotiation is that a lot of times there's an education piece to it. And when you're, I think the key to negotiating with, with your own client is educating them. And if you can educate them as to the decisions that they should make, it makes it a little bit easier and that's a hard thing to do. So what I had to do is educate these players on the impact of spending a certain amount of money now versus saving that money now and what that long term effect is. So as one of the things that I, that I found very helpful in working with these guys was that the easiest way to educate them. Because I'm not going to come out and start trying to give them definitions of what a correlation coefficient is or Sharpe ratio of a portfolio and all that kind of stuff, because they'll just tune me out. But what I could say is, listen, last month you spent X number of dollars and cents, like down to the penny. If you spend on average that much money every single month and you don't get another contract, you're gonna go broke on X date. So let's look at, let's look at this, let's look at this signing bonus or this check or this upcoming season of your pay and figure out, okay, if we can put more of it away, this is how long it extends it. So instead of you going, you know, potentially going broke and again this is assuming no other, no additional job right away when you're done playing, which a lot of, a lot of players face, then that means instead of, you know, potentially you know, running out of money four years from now, you might run out of money 15, 20, 30 years from now. So, so it's all about how do I take this client through an educational process, one, that they can understand and, and two, that is compelling enough to cause them to want to act and make a decision, preferably a decision that's in line with what my professional expertise would kind of direct. Now, on the flip side of that is they don't always listen. Right. And so now the negotiation is just like in any kind of corporate negotiation. You're saying, okay, if I can't get my ideal deal terms, if I can't get the best situation that I want, how can I at least mitigate the downside as best as possible? And so if I were to say, you know, out of this $5 million signing bonus, we should put away after taxes, we should put away, you know, $2 million and you can spend this 500,000. If they say, nope, I'm going to spend 1.5 million and only want to put away a million, okay, well, now what impact does that have in putting together a plan for them for the future? So how can I mitigate the risk of running out of money at a certain point? What impact does that have? And again, it's still educating that client through the process. So this is a very long winded answer to your, to your question, but I think negotiating with your clients, it all comes down to how do you educate them? And in educating them, and if you've built the trust and you've built that relationship, if you educate them accordingly and appropriately, ultimately, you know, the belief and hope is that they'll, they'll make a decision that follows kind of your guidance.

That makes sense. So how do you build that trust? Because of course, when you're, when you're a big time athlete making millions of dollars, everybody wants a pie of you. And it's, it's really, it's logical for them to have a certain amount of distrust of everybody.

Absolutely.

Because everybody wants a piece. So how do you build that trust with them?

Yeah, yeah. So the, the trust factor is critical in any relationship, especially in any relationship where you're negotiating and working towards some type of desired outcome specific to athletes. You know, and I guess maybe it's not that specific to athletes. I think it's across the board. But one of the things that I did with athletes was I was always honest. And with athletes in particular, I didn't really have a desire to be their groupie, to be their fan, to Be kind of part of their entourage. My goal was very professional and it was to provide them service and to give them honest advice and to tell them when they're wrong. And so many times you have people that surround these athletes that are, yes, people. And it's the same thing with key executives, with business owners, et cetera, right. There's so many people around them who are, who don't want to risk rocking the boat, who don't want to risk their job, their role, their position, and the benefits that have come from their position. So they don't stand up for what they truly believe in. And I think that athletes in particular respect that because it's so rare in their life for them to hear no and for them to hear someone who will be very direct with what it is that they do. I remember the first meeting I had. So I worked with a lot of NFL players, but I remember the first meeting that I ever had with an NBA player when I was a financial advisor. And it was with the player, one of my partners, and then also one of his advisors. And we gave this whole presentation and I was very bold and direct in the decisions that he had to make. And that they're not easy decisions and that they're not always going to be comfortable and they're not going to allow you to live any type of lifestyle that you want to live. But here's what you need to do if you want to find success when you're done playing. And when I left, after we left, I ended up getting the feedback where the player basically said, that guy has swag. I trust what he's saying. And that's in one meeting. When you think about that, if you've had, you know, no other contact and it's your first meeting and it's a pitch and you're just really trying to, like, help, you know, sell yourself and sell your services and then ultimately help build trust that you can have a long standing relationship with that client. That's what you want, right? You want them to know from day one that you're different, that you're there to achieve a purpose and to provide them, you know, particular advice in a particular area and not to back down to what it is that you believe in, is in their best interest.

Wow, there's a lot of good stuff. And one of the things that I found most interesting there is the, the similarities between high ranking people in a business, in the business, definitely, and the professional athletes because it's so easy to look at those athletes and say, oh, look at Their entourage just saying yes to whatever it is they say. But yeah, and I think that's a problem that corporations have a lot.

Absolutely.

Because people just go with the flow.

That's right. That's right. Nobody wants to rock the boat because it's a risk. It puts yourself at risk. So if you're a service provider trying to get a client, you feel like you're going to be put at risk by challenging that client or challenging the norm or status quo that they're used to. If you're working in a company and you're, you know, to challenge the, the CEO or the president, the head of that company or that, that business division, you know, oftentimes you feel like, you know, am I going to. Am I going to get fired for saying, you know, for speaking out or disagreeing? Am I going to. How am I going to be challenged? And the same thing with. It's honestly, it's the same thing when you're negotiating. So in some type of transaction. So again, I do M and A, where mergers and acquisitions, we're buying and selling companies, et cetera. And sometimes you feel like you don't want to lose the deal because there's external pressures on getting a deal done. The CEO, the head of a particular business unit, or a particular brand wants to get a deal done. And you still have to hold true to, you know, what are the core values of the company and yourself. And so when you're negotiating, you want to make sure that you're still staying true to that and not just giving in on points just to try to get the deal done. And if you can't, if you reach impasse, you reach impasse. But you have to be able to be confident that you've, you've done everything kind of in the, in a way that's, that's true to who you are and the values of the company.

Right. And so when you see that coming beforehand, how do you get that confidence? Where does that come from? Because a lot of times people have that fear, like you said, of losing the deal or getting, or getting fired. But you have to balance that, that risk or perceived risk with doing the right thing. So for you, how are you able to get that confidence to, to speak the truth? Does your company invest in professional development training? If you believe that your team would benefit from a negotiation workshop, all you need to do is go to our website, fill out the workshop request form, and then we'll set up a time to chat. These workshops are completely customizable, and we've done Them all around the country. Negotiation and conflict resolution skills are beneficial across all professions, but they're especially useful in procurement, purchasing, sales, sourcing and contract management. Our calendar is filling up quickly and we even have some workshops scheduled for next year if you think you might want one. I'd suggest reaching out soon so you don't miss out. Check out the link in the description to learn more and we will be right back after this.

So it's a couple things. One, I think part of it is that's just who I am. And that's the worst answer you can give right when you ask that question because, well, how do I develop that? But I think part of it is you have to be able to understand who you are and understand, you know, your own values and what it is that you're looking to achieve out of either your career, out of the relationships you have with your clients or relationships you have with your co workers and your kind of leadership staff above you. But the other thing too though is to me, it's all about completely understanding whatever the task is at hand. Confidence comes when you know that all aspects of whatever transaction, whatever deal, whatever advice to a client that you're meeting with, when you have, when you have a full understanding of what that client is trying to achieve and you know, kind of the steps or you know, whatever the answer solution is, or you have a number of solutions to offer. If you can be, if you can be confident in knowing what that is, then you can be confident with that client. You can be confident in telling them, you know, no to what it is that they want to do. So if it's working with a client. Back when I was a financial advisor, I would always have the solutions out. I have various options. And so that when we would talk, the confidence came in knowing that I know that client situation better than anybody else. Yes, they may have other advisors, but I'm going to, I know that full picture, that full scope of what it is that they're trying to achieve. And I understand their kind of idiosyncrasies. I know that they're a spender versus a saver. I know that, that they have a real desire to provide for their family, let's say, so they're going to want to buy houses for their siblings and this, you have to fully understand the situation. Same thing in the M and A deals that I work on in others. I have to fully understand both our company corporate objectives as well as what are those interests. Like we, you know, always talk about what are those interests of the seller that we're trying to acquire. Because if I can find that bridge between the two, then I can be absolutely confident in what it is that we're coming with. And if, if there's no bridge to be made, there's no bridge. But at the same time, you have to fully educate yourself on the situation. And in doing that, you'll have confidence whether there's going to be an outcome or not.

Right. It's a great point. And kind of going back to when you were talking about educating the clients. And I think this is a point that people who are listening can take from any walk of life if they're in the service industry or they're selling products, or even if they're, they're not entrepreneurs themselves, but within the corporation, you still kind of have a client.

Absolutely.

Extent.

Yeah.

And that educational aspect is huge. And so when, when you're negotiating with somebody, you're trying to persuade somebody, you have the ethos part, the, the logic or the logos, which is logic, and then ethos, ethics, and then pathos, which is the heart, you know, the emotions.

Yeah.

So how did you balance all three of those when dealing with the clients? Because you talked about how you were able to build out the numbers for them. How were you able to kind of speak to their heart and address that?

That's a great question. And I think part of it is, is when you think about the heart, it's, it's, it's not just about. It's not just about what you can do for yourself when you're in the service industry or even if you're selling product, et cetera, you. You have an understanding of what it is that you're trying to achieve. Right. So. So typically you want to either sell more widgets or you want to bring on more clients, or you want to grow your business, you want to excel in your career, whatever, you have those internal desires. But what helps, and what I think has helped me be successful in life is that I really try to tap into that client's heart. Right. And so if you're, if you're, if you're selling widgets and you're trying to tap into the consumer's heart and desires and what they're trying to achieve, but particularly in, in the service industry, really, what, what motivates my client? What keeps them up at night? What is it that challenges them? What is it that would make their. What is going to help them from going broke at a certain point? And in this, you know, working with athletes, to me, was it really has been a passion and I still kind of scratch that itch in other ways of giving back and trying to educate players. But I really took it personally if clients made poor decisions. I really want to see them succeed and in my desire to help came through to them. So they can see that your client knows if you care about them or you don't care about them. And so I think a lot of times when you balance, it's your heart, it's your logic, it's your mind, it's bringing all this together. But it's about being authentic. If I'm authentic and they see that I care about them, they're more apt to listen regardless of what the plan is. At the end of the day, if I can touch tap into their lives and what's important to them, they're much more open to understanding what it is that I'm trying to have them. Do you know somebody? When I, when I was in sales at the investment firm, early on in my career, I had a good mentor and friend who told me people don't, people don't buy products like in the service industry. They don't, they don't buy solutions or products. They buy the people. Right? And so if you're a financial advisor, if you're like an accountant or an attorney, along those lines and you're trying to get new clients, it's not about, you know, I'm the best attorney in this particular area or I've got the best solution for, you know, investing, et cetera. It's about does the client trust you? Does the client feel like you care about them and that you're going to put their interest above your own? Everybody, you know, used car salesman, right, Quote, unquote, the proverbial used car salesman. A lot of times people, people refer to that and kind of everybody has this image in their mind because that, that, that connotates this image of someone who's really just trying to get a sale. They don't care about who the consumer is. They just want to sell this car. People can see that a mile away. And so when you're, when you're, honest, when you're authentic, when you, when you really show a desire to help, that matters to people. And because what happens then is when you think, when you go at it from a mindset of allow my, I have this background and this, this, this set of institutional knowledge, academically experiential knowledge, that's great, but I need to be able to take that and partner it, marry it with my heart, my desire to make an impact in the lives of the people I'm working with. And if I can do that, they'll see that it's more than just whatever this XYZ solution is.

Right.

So ultimately, again, another very long winded answer to your question. But I think it's, it's, it's finding a way to balance those that's honest and true to who you are and then delivering that to your client. And when you're honest and authentic with yourself and what you're trying to achieve, clients see that and I think they, they buy into it.

That's powerful. That's powerful and that's actionable for everybody.

Yeah, that's right.

That's great.

And you know, actionable from the perspective that think about what matters to you. And it's not to say that everybody's working and they're passionate, you know, that they're passionate about the area or industry that they're in. But I think it's, I think it's partially about. Even if you're not passionate, like, let's be honest, right? I am not passionate about lawn and garden services. Right. That does, like, you know, whether. Listen, this is the first year my grass has really been green, right?

So.

But I'm a, I'm a Scotch Miracle Gro, which is the global leader in providing consumer based lawn and garden services. Right. But I don't have the passion of like, you know, making sure that the right amount of nitrogen is in my grass to make the green really popular. I've learned that I'm not passionate about that, but what I am passionate about is learning, educating, and helping to see deals get done. Right. I love the anatomy of a transaction. I love being able to take the experiences that I've had both in a outside counsel, in a law firm perspective, as well as having my own business, working at an investment firm, taking all those experiences and then meeting with someone oftentimes who is selling their business for the first time. They don't deal with these types of transactions. Typically a family business that we're buying for the most part and being able to not just be this, you know, corporate lawyer that's coming in and trying to, you know, railroad them and get our deal done. No, it's about how can I tap into what's important. Why are you selling your business? Like, what is it that you're looking. You want freedom? You want this? Because all those things play into not just getting the deal done for us, but also what is it gonna look like post close where we have this integration period. And now we're trying to take this business that we just bought and actually merge it into our company and integrate it into the culture, the process of our company. So I can't just go in and railroad somebody and not get all the information I possibly can out of the situation because that just hurts us in the long run. So talking about being actionable for people, it's about thinking about what is it, what aspect of what it is that you're doing do you really care most about. How can you take and be authentic to that part of whatever it is that you do and somehow, you know, relay that to the clients that you're working with or the people that you're working, you know, possibly in opposition to and try to get whatever that deal done, Whatever that deal is, try to get it done.

Wow. I, it's funny you say that. I never thought of what you do from that perspective because I never, I never thought of it that way. That's a brilliant point.

There was a, there was a study actually by Deloitte that just came out earlier this week and I was just kind of reading through it. It's on mergers and acquisitions globally. And it looked at something like 2500 companies. And not globally, excuse me, just in the US so like 2500 different companies. And it looked at what are the keys to success in any type of transaction. And it talked about economic indicators. Was like the first point, but then strategy and planning, due diligence, integration. And those are things, when you think about it, like the due diligence, the strategy and planning, the integration, those are all things that you can control and they're so critical for you to think about what it is that you're trying to achieve out of a transaction. So when I, when I, and I talked before about integration, it's critical to our business because we're, we're looking for a return on investment. Anytime we're buying a company, we're looking for some type of roi. And that ROI is absolutely impacted by how well we can integrate and optimize that business when we bring it into our in house, into our brands. Valuation, that was the fifth thing. So it's economic indicators, valuation, strategy and planning, due diligence and integration and all of those things you can impact. Valuation is another critical one. Right? So if you're thinking about buying a business or something along those lines where, you know, and again, we're getting into sometimes some more complex types of transactions, but valuation is critical because why is the person trying to sell their Business. Right. If they're, if they're trying to sell their business because they're trying to absolutely maximize the dollar that they get, well, that's one good piece of to know. If they're trying to sell their business because they have kids and they're getting older and they realize that their kids don't want the business and they have to figure out, how do I do this for estate planning purposes for my legacy? Well, that's a completely different proposition. Potentially might go to a completely different strategy in terms of the structure of the deal. So all of these pieces of what makes some type of negotiation or some type of transaction successful, so many of it are things that you can control. And so by understanding what it is that you're looking to get out of a situation and being able to empathize and put yourself in the shoes of who it is that's on the other side and what it is they're trying to achieve, that's going to make you that much more successful. It's powerful. It's powerful to be able to speak to someone across the table from you in language that's meaningful to them.

So very, very interesting.

I get pumped about this stuff, man. Let's go.

This is awesome. It's cool to nerd out with somebody.

Nerds are cool, man. Nerds rule the world. Yes.

Okay, so how are you able to take these same principles and apply it when you were trying to, as an associate, start this new practice area? Yeah, that must have been tough.

It was tough. So I had to think about what were the things that meant the most to the partners that I needed to sign off on it. Right. And so obviously in a law firm, you know, kind of the number one thing, it's a business. Right. So the number one thing is, can I show an economic impact of bringing in a new business area at minimal cost to the firm? And so what I was able to do there was I had to do a lot of research and understanding of what was it going to cost for us to launch a new area. So marketing expense, human capital expense, you know, kind of the, the ramp up time, how long would it take? But then what could I. What could I return to the business, to the firm in exchange for those costs? And so number of clients, how many clients could I legitimately bring in? And so being able to set forth a business plan that, that spoke the language that they needed to speak and then do it in a way that caught their attention? So what were some ways, what are some ways that catch their attention? It's being able to, in certain instances, highlight the relationships that I have in professional sports. Everybody loves to see pictures of different athletes. And so, you know, being able to intersperse that through a business plan and through a strategy doc to say, listen, these are relationships that I already have. I know I can bring these types of relationships in as clients. This is what the impact that would have. This is the cost that we'll have. And so therefore, ultimately, I think we can be in the black and be profitable at this period, at this point, in this point in time. And so for me, it was, you know, one, understanding what it is that they were looking for, obviously, economics. Two, being able to kind of intrigue them by the allure of professional sports and working with professional athletes as clients. Three, being able to educate them on their perceived risks. And so their risks around do we want to be. One of the big risks that they saw was, I don't know if we want to be representing individual athletes. And, you know, if they get into trouble, then and we're the firm, you know, defending them, that could be a bad situation. And I said, you know, I was able to come combat that by focusing on the fact that we're not being agents. And so typically, whenever there's a big issue, it's usually the agent that's the person they're speaking with. The client talked about how we can put together crisis management teams in certain instances that could insulate us from exposure in that way. And then two, just being very mindful of the clients that we take on and what it is that we would be willing to do for them. And so the firm that I was at did some criminal work, but wasn't a very big criminal firm. So that I'm not out there trying to get clients, they're have criminal issues. And we may have a client that we're doing some real estate work for or some other work for, but if a criminal issue were to arise, then we can always farm that out to another firm. And so how do I show them the potential? I show them some things that get their attention and then kind of take away the risk factors, mitigate the risk factors. And that went a long way. And then finally, it's the human interaction piece, right? And that's one of the things. And I just had this conversation at lunch with some people today. It really does come down to the people and the relationships that you can build. And so I was fortunate enough that I built some relationships. I didn't come in. It wasn't like day one, I'D been a summer associate and spent two summers at this firm, and I worked there during the school year, and I was able to. They were able to trust me in terms of my judgment, my work product. And so as I slowly unveiled a plan to them, first, by literally bringing a client in that we ended up doing work for before there was an area, it showed them instantly that this was something that could be viable. And then ultimately proof is in the pudding. At the end of the first year, we were profitable in a brand new practice area. So that doesn't really happen too often, and that helps sell you for the future for what it is you want to do. That's incredibly oppressive and incredibly stressful, I would imagine.

I would imagine. And so for those of you who aren't in the legal profession, it's tough to start something new in a big law firm that's already well established as an associate. It's hard to start something in a big law firm that's established as a partner.

Yep, absolutely.

So that's impressive. And one thing I want to key in on here is your ability to engender trust in other people, because it's that same. It's a similar skill, but with. But a different market, a different target, you know. So what would you say the differences were between your ability to get trust with your clients in the sports world and your ability to get trust for the older partners?

Yeah, for the older partners, it's. I think there's two big things. One, and probably first and foremost, is work production, work product and work ethic. I think if you show that you're willing to work hard, you're willing to put in the hours, you're gonna do what it takes to get whatever job done. I think that goes a long way. Because let's think of who these older partners are. These older partners, you know, when you think about just the impact of generational differences, again, and this goes, no matter what type of negotiation, what type of strategic discussions you're having, that's a big factor. When you think about, how do I get through to this person, help them see my perspective. Sometimes it's being able to talk in their language and being able to highlight things that are important to them. And when you look at these older partners that you're trying to engender trust with, they came from a generation where you may go and work at one place for the rest of your career, you're going to work hard. A lot of them came from law firm scenarios where they were. It was mandatory, working on Saturdays they're wearing a suit on Saturdays. They're, you know, all these things where, okay, I know if that's. If that's who I'm dealing with and that's who I need to have sign off, then they need to know that I'm here to work. They need to understand that I'm going to do what it takes to put in the time, et cetera. And so there were times where, you know, they. I would make a point to make sure that they got whatever it is work product they were looking for ahead of time, ahead of deadline, thorough reviewed, etc. So, so. So the big piece, I think is. Is work product and work ethic. The. The second one I think, too, is being. Being approachable and being comfortable in uncomfortable situations. And I say that if. If those listening could actually see my face. It's like a. It's really scrunched up as I try to articulate this, because it's not that easy. Because, you know, my initial thought was to say, just be normal, but what is normal? So I want to try to be more specific in terms of getting you actual skills or little nuggets that you could take away. What I mean by this is I have found myself being able to be comfortable in uncomfortable situations. A lot of times you may end up having to build trust with someone you have nothing in common with. And it's easy to want to avoid those opportunities. It's easy to say, I don't want to deal with it. Somebody's having, let's say, a golf outing, and I don't golf. I don't really like it. It's easy to be like, I'm gonna pass. Or if. If there's some type of, you know, event with some fundraiser where you're asked to come and fill a seat and you're like, I really don't want to go out to a stuffy dinner on a Thursday night or what have you. It's easy to pass on those opportunities. But I find that when you. When you kind of take a hold of the notion of being in an uncomfortable situation, you can start to build relationships with people outside of just the pure work. And that goes a long ways, right? So at the end of the day, I'm not just, you know, I was never the type that would say, hey, I just want to go hang out with some old partners on the weekend. Right? That's just not. It's not me. Didn't see them, wouldn't cross their paths. But when they would say, hey, we need somebody to fill a seat at this fundraiser, you know, that the firm has bought a table for, or, hey, you know, we've got this extra project. Does anybody have time to help or whatever that might be of going the extra mile? And I say that, you know, I think it's applicable, too, when you're thinking about, you know, your external clients. Because your external clients want to know that you're going to work your butt off for them. Right? They want to know that you're going to put in the work, you're going to put in the time, and you're going to do what it takes to really put yourself in their shoes in a way that you can understand what it is they're trying to achieve. And when you do that, you know, the trust is just. It's. It's built. So. So I think it's. I think it's kind of universal internally. And external clients, I like that. Sometimes with a little different spin.

Right. Okay. Now, let's say throughout all of these professional experiences that you've had, even. Even to law school, you know, because that was. That was tough.

That was not.

Yeah, it was sharks, you know.

Yeah.

But so. So throughout all your professional life, what would you say is your negotiation philosophy? Like, how would you describe it?

I think my negotiation philosophy really is to just be authentic. I mean, I think to be authentic and to be honest with who you are. People just. People buy into that. Not. And that's not to say you're gonna win every negotiation and get everything that you're always looking for, but it makes it a lot easier. And when you're honest, because it's so easy, and you saw this Kwame, when we were in law school and different competitions and stuff, you know, you're given a fake problem, and so sometimes you're just posturing, and, you know, you're getting angry when you're really not angry or whatnot. And I think that anytime when you're really not true to who you are, that's just tough. That's tough to win at what it is you're trying to achieve. So when I do. Okay, so let's take a step back. So when I talk about being authentic, Kwame knows me. I am high energy. I'm a really kind of positive and happy person. I love to smile. Sometimes I'll just randomly break out in song and dance just because that's who I am, and I'm authentic and honest with who I am. So, you know, whether I'm at work or at home with my kids, I'm me I'm running around jumping on furniture, you know, appropriately, not in the office. Too crazy. If I'm jumping on furniture, it's my furniture. But I say that because I am who I am. And so what that means then is if I'm in a negotiation and I get upset over something, it's honest. I really do get. I really would be upset over that thing. And so when you've built that authenticity with the client or with the target on the other side, the person that you're negotiating against, that's valuable, that means more. They understand that more. And maybe that. Maybe that gets you points or maybe it doesn't, but at least the person on the other side gets it and they understand. And so at the end of the day, what I want is that I want, no matter what relationship we've just negotiated, whether it's an acquisition, whether it's some type of partnership or strategic relationship for the future, or whether it's, you know, back when I worked with my clients, I always wanted the person on the other side to know that I cared about them as a human being. And then I always want to be able to shake hands and have a positive relationship going forward. Does it mean we're going to be best friends? No. I mean, you know, there's the whole mantra out there that if. If both sides feel like they lost, and that means it was a good deal. Right. I mean, you know, at the end of the day, I don't know if I prescribe to that necessarily, but I do know that I want to be able to sleep at night knowing that I didn't take advantage of somebody and I was honest to who I am. So I think my philosophy, in a nutshell is just authenticity, kind of humanity and honesty.

Right. And for the listeners out there, I hope you're not, you know, saying, oh, this is just too simple. You know, it can't be that easy. But really, really. It is. It is.

It is, because that goes back to what the philosophy is. And everybody has different philosophies. Right. So you have a philosophy, which in my eyes is a much bigger, deeper kind of thing, of who you are as a negotiator, but then you have strategy and tactics based on whatever the actual situation is. So don't let's not get it twisted here. If I've got a deal that I need to go in and I need to be hard about and I need to be forceful and that we need to get certain things done, and we're not going to accept anything less, I will absolutely do that. But I'm also not doing it in a way that's degrading to the people I'm negotiating against. I'm not the type that, you know, just starts cursing and slamming doors and walking out on negotiations. If there's something that's going the wrong way or a way that I don't feel comfortable with, I will let the people on the other side know and know that there's something that either I can't budge on or we're not going to move on it. But again, you know, the philosophy is, who are you as a negotiator? Are you. You know, are you someone that is. That's. That's honest, or are you someone that's kind of playing a role and that's good to know about yourself? I'm not saying that there's one right way or one wrong way. I'm just talking about how I do it. But I do think that if you're. If you're the type that says, I want to come up with. I want to come up with a way to, I don't know, try to make sure that no matter what, I'm going to be a hard negotiator. Because maybe as a person, you're more of a shy and timid person, so you want to build this Persona as a negotiator of just really trying to be tough, and that helps you to get through what would otherwise be a challenging kind of environment for you. That's fine. Just be honest with who you are. Right. I guess what I'm saying is, be honest. If you're a person that isn't like a super chippy, super happy type of person, then don't try to fake it. Because people see that they can see right through it. Just be you, but understand who you are and understand the challenges that might come with that. So I'm very aware of the fact that not everybody's a morning person like I am. I'm very aware of the fact that I have a lot more energy a lot of times or express more energy than a lot of people do. And I'm also aware that if I'm meeting somebody for the first time, that they may view that as not authentic because they don't know me. And so I have to know that about myself so that when I'm meeting someone for the first time, it's not like I'm running into Kwame on the street, where I'm all, like, excited and jumping around. It's much more of a still positive, still smiling and everything like I am. But it's also reserved enough to know that I don't want to overwhelm them and cause them to think about something beyond what it is we're here to do.

Right. And that is a high level point that you just made, because what you're saying is that you're not changing who you are.

That's right.

Occasionally you might temper it, but you're not changing it.

That's right.

And I tell people when I. When I do these trainings, I was like, you know, my favorite actors, male actors, are Denzel Washington and Leonardo DiCaprio.

Yeah.

I was like, man, if I could be like them, that'd be so cool.

But I'm not. That's right.

Cool like that.

You're pretty cool.

Come on.

Not. Not like that. Okay, I'll give you that.

So if I try to channel Denzel in American Gangster, people. What's wrong with you? You know?

Right, right.

I need to realize that I need to be me, whatever me is in that situation.

Yeah. And.

And for me, I know sometimes my thing is I'm a really friendly person. And so sometimes I lean. I lean towards being too cooperative, and so to the detriment of myself, you know, And I realize I need to bring that back sometimes. But still, I'm going to be myself. I'm going to be friendly. But you can still protect your interests.

Yeah.

By being yourself.

That's exactly right. Yeah. And I mean, that's. That's so important. Kwame, too. Like, and I hope that. That the point is getting across like you. If you know who you are and you know your own tendencies, you can be that much more effective of a negotiator, that much more effective of a business owner, et cetera. Because now you, you know, when you need to either dial it up or dial it back, whatever that it is.

Right. That's. That's great. Okay, we're at, like 40 minutes. We gotta go to something. So what would you say is one thing that somebody can do today to become a better negotiator or maybe even like an action item that they can do today to try and improve?

Yeah. Okay, so here's the action item. I would say one to get to understand yourself better. Because I think the theme that we've talked about, at least for the past few minutes, has been around being authentic and being kind of who you are. What I would do as an action item is take out a piece of paper and just draw a line down the middle. And on one side of it, just think about 5 to 10 words, single words that you would use to describe yourself. Whatever those words might be energetic, strategic, stressful, or stressed out, or, you know, carefree, whatever those words are that you think describe you. And then go talk to some people who are really close to you and ask them what are the words that they would use to describe you? And write them on the other side of the paper and see what matches. Right. See. Because one of the things I think is challenging when you think about this authenticity piece and applying that to negotiation tactics, is that you may see yourself one way, but people may just naturally see you another way. And that's incredibly important to understand. Here's a case in point. And this blew my mind when I learned it about myself. I have always, always thought of myself as a shy person. Right, Exactly. So Kwame's over here dying. So while he's trying to catch his breath, I'll explain why. Like, I. Ever since I was a kid, I've always been uncomfortable in situations where I'm really meeting new people. But if you asked anybody who knows me, no one would say that. No one would ever. And most people don't even believe it when I actually say it. And part of it's because I've learned over the years. And when I say over the years, I mean, like as early back as, like kind of middle school, high school, I started to realize for me, sports was the equalizer. Right. So I could talk sports, play sports, do anything sports related. And that, you know, that got me into a situation where I was comfortable with people. Once I'm comfortable with somebody, once I meet them, I'm good, no problem. And so over the years, as I've gotten into professional settings, I've had to find those things that are comfortable spaces for me, whether that's being an excellent technical advisor, you know, really knowing my, my, my. My area of expertise very well, and, and being com. Finding confidence because I know the issue better than anybody else or whether it's going to a cocktail party and knowing that I love current events and politics and, you know, those things you aren't supposed to talk about, I guess, but. But being comfortable in having something that's an icebreaker. So, so, so to take a step back then, and what we were talking about is when you go through that list, you can start to identify those things that use how you see yourself. And then you can go ask other people and see how they. How they see you. I did this thing, and maybe this is a second piece of advice. I read a book called strength finders. And I took the assessment online, and it's their strength finders has been done by the Gallup organization, like Gallup polling, et cetera. And they've been been doing this for years and years and years. And you take this online test and you go through it, and it's tells you your strengths. So it's this whole idea of discovering your strengths. And so when I went through put out my top five strengths, and it blew my mind because it was so dead on. And if I can remember and put myself on the spot here, number one was positivity, Two was competitive, three was strategic, four was relator and relatability. And then five was, I think, something like futuristic, right? And so the positivity and competitiveness that helped me understand, like, I knew I was positive. I never really thought of it as a strength per se, but now I get it that people want to follow, and leaders who are positive, you know, they draw more people to follow them, if you will. But then when you match positive with competitive, it's that, you know, I'm not trying to just step on people's necks. I'm trying to figure out, how can we together move the ball forward? But what blew my mind was the relator, because this was the first time I was able to actually better articulate how I feel internally in new situations. The relator is someone who values relationships, doesn't need a ton of relationships, but with the relationships that they have, they want them to be deep relationships. And so typically, I'm uncomfortable at first until I find something with somebody that I can go on a deeper level with. And when I do that now, it's great. Now I really feel like we have a relationship. And so sometimes that comes just based on time and repetition and seeing somebody, and maybe it's a coworker or something like that that you see on a regular basis, and you start to build that depth. But when you're thinking about negotiating and you're working with somebody across the table or even a new client, in my instance, I always want to build that relationship. So if it's a new client, I don't want to just come with, here's your investment proposal that we want to invest. No, it's like, help me understand your family. Help me understand where you came from, your what keeps you up at night, what excites you, what's your passion? And now I start to get a deeper relationship. So I say all that to just give an example as to why it's important to Understand both how you view yourself, but then how others view you, because that's going to play a role as well in how you can be the best negotiator that you can be. So take out that piece of paper and do some homework, and hopefully it'll help you to become a little bit more effective at what it is that you're doing.

That's so cool.

And you know.

You know what? You. You've inspired a freebie. So I've been doing this freebie for people. They can go on and download this. This document now. Now it's a new one.

All right.

So, yeah, I'll. I'll take these questions that you created and think up some of my own, too.

Yeah.

And people can download it and.

Absolutely.

Like who they are and who they can be like in real life and in the negotiation.

That's right. Sometimes it's different, but it should be the same. Yeah. Sometimes it's different because you have to meet that strategy.

But.

But the philosophy, the core should be the same.

Exactly.

Hit it on the head. Absolutely. I love that you're doing this, man. This is great.

Thank you. This is so much fun. Okay. And you know what's coolest about this is that this is a conversation we would have had any time.

Yeah, that's right. Yep.

Man.

Okay, well, now it's memorialized.

Yes. So thank you so much.

Absolutely.

Lot of fun.

My pleasure. My pleasure. Absolutely. Anything I can do to help, you know, don't hesitate to reach out.

So I hope you enjoyed that episode. If you did, please subscribe and leave a review. My goal is to teach these skills to as many people as possible, and the reviews that you leave on itunes and on Stitcher helps me to reach more listeners. Also, if you have a topic that you want me to COVID leave that message right there in. In the reviews. A lot of listeners have been asking me to review, record a negotiation, and you are going to get that in the next episode. I'm going to show you how to get a better deal on your next car. And I think that the technique that I'm going to show you is going to be helpful because it's a technique that can be applied to other big purchases in your life. I also want to give a shout out to Kobe from Cavalier Consulting down in Cincinnati for all the help he's done in editing and promoting the podcast. And lastly, if you are interested in coaching, consulting, or training, please feel free to reach out to me. I believe negotiation is where persuasion and problem solving meets. So if you have any problems and you need help solving it, reach out to me. And I'd love to help. But until then, thanks again for listening, and I will catch you in the next one. Have a good week.