How to Confidently Negotiate Through Fear with Sarah JanTausch, M.S.

Hello, my friends, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. This show is produced by the American Negotiation Institute and with over 5 million downloads and listeners in over 180 countries, listeners just like you have made this the number one negotiation podcast in the world. Hi, my name is Kwame Christian and I am the founder and CEO of the American Negotiation Institute here at A&I we believe that the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations and we are passionate about providing you with the best content that will help you to make your difficult conversations easier, both at work and at home. Lastly, I want to remind you that we offer consulting and conduct trainings both virtually and in person all around the world. Our focus is in three main areas. First, negotiation and conflict resolution. Second, leadership. And lastly, diversity, equity and inclusion. Check the link in the description below to learn more about how we could work with you and your team. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Sarah, thanks for joining us today.

Sure thing. Thanks for having me.

Yeah, it is my pleasure. Long overdue, to be honest. So how about you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?

Sure. So I've been in politics and government for somewhere around 12 to 13 years now and that's really the basis of my involvement. But I've also had a career in government. But now I've moved into the private sector and exploring some avenues there. But I ran for public office a couple of years ago and lost. So I'm really excited to dig into that and how negotiating and fear tie into that as well as just talking about how women in politics and and my involvement be there. I've worked for a lieutenant governor and a governor as well as some state agencies, traveled the country for a campaign and been involved at really the local, state and national level and campaign. So I'm excited to dig in.

Absolutely. And this is a fun topic. Fun not in that like experiencing fear is enjoyable, but fun in that there is a lot to explore here and a lot to learn. And so our topic is going to be Negotiating through Fear. And so we're going to talk about at the beginning, first we're going to discuss how to negotiate away the fear internally for yourself and externally when you're helping other people to overcome their fears, recognizing that you don't need to be perfect. And then in the political world, fundraising, which is always scary, both for the people who are raising funds and the people who are being asked. And so how can we use some of these negotiation principles in that realm. So let's just start about. So let's just start off by talking about fear in negotiation in general or difficult conversations in general. What are the things that we need to know about that?

Yeah, so I think. I think there are some pretty universal things, whether you're having a dialogue with your spouse or your boss or you're trying to negotiate, whether or not you actually want to do something like run for public office. And I think it's getting just like really clear on why you're doing what you're doing and what your interest is in the conversation. I think knowing what we want to do and why is the first place where we can come to negotiation or conversation and being able to be authentic and able to bring up our best points. And I think the other thing that's really important is understanding where the other person is coming from. And we can go into this a little bit later. But something I use is incentive structures. It's principles from economics, but I use it in every part of my life, whether I'm negotiating with my husband on where we want to have dinner, or I'm talking to a candidate and trying to help them explain and understand how their private sector career is going to be very different from being in the public office and public life.

Absolutely. Well, let's talk about those incentives. So for those who are not as well versed in economics, what do you mean by incentives?

Sure. So in a very simple sense, like, think about a company who sells a good or service or product. Like, let's think of Pepsi, big brand, they sell soda to a lot of people. Right. And companies, they want to offer a good or service, and they want to be paid fairly for what they offer. We want to be able to enjoy their soda. We want it to be delicious. We want it to be at a fair price. And so we want a couple of things. Incentives for us are we want it to taste good and we want it to be accessible, and we want it to be a pretty good price. They want to be able to make money and offer something that. Where they can continue to get new people that like it and continue to buy it. So on a very simple basis, we're both looking for different things on each side of the incentive structure.

Very nice. Yep. Absolutely. And now when we think about fear, how can we wrap this concept of fear and how fear impacts us in difficult conversations with potentially some incentives? I think that's a really interesting potential blend.

Yeah. So something that's been popping up for me in some of my work that I Do, like working with other women is negotiating things like salaries or raises. That comes up quite a bit. But it also relates to this work in politics and deciding whether or not to run. There's this fear because we wanna be able to, or really anyone wants to be able to ask for, whether it's a salary that's at market rate or a salary that you think you deserve. But there's some fear there because I think all of us have some ideas in our head. We've got our own narratives of what we think we deserve, what we've been told we deserve. All these little things that pop up that create this idea of imposter syndrome. Right. Like that everyone experiences at various points, but that whole fear that pops up is not a reason not to do something. And that's that portion where we talk about fear and how we're using it. But I think that this fear that pops up comes from. I mean, everyone's got insecurities about what they. How they see themselves. And sometimes I think that's where a lot of this is coming from.

100%. And I don't know about you, Sarah, you could jump in and you could probably just say, yeah, Kwame, your word is just you. But I feel as though when it comes to imposter syndrome, at least for me, it's something that I haven't really gotten over in terms of, like, I don't stop feeling that way. I just recognize that I will feel that way and I still need to do what I need to do, um, despite the fact that I feel the way that I feel.

Yep. Um, I would totally agree with that personally. And I think that most people that I've kind of been able to talk to imposter syndrome about would totally agree with that. And I think the difference between, like, imposter syndrome is something that's this debilitating fear and it not being a debilitating fear is doing it anyway. It's this idea and understanding that maybe the fears that are coming up are things that are supposed to be there. What if every single person who's ever run for office has been so scared and fearful and thought they're not good enough? And so I think it's this idea of doing it anyway and realizing that you're in really good company if you've got some fears or some jitters with what you're about to do. And it probably means that you really care.

Yeah, it means that you really care and that you are self aware if, if you are overconfident and you Say, oh, I won't have any problems. Nothing. This is going to be super easy. Yeah. You might be missing something. And sometimes that fear can be a helpful signal to. To focus your preparation. Because sometimes maybe you are experiencing that fear or insecurity because you genuinely aren't good enough or have the skills at that time. Notice I say at that time. And so you say, all right, what do I need to do to acquire said skills? Okay, great, I'm going to do that and then I'm going to do it anyway, just like you said.

And then you grow a little bit and you realize it pops up all over again when you are up for promotion or you're starting a new podcast or a new business venture. Right. And you have to like, grow that competence all over again. It's the people who do it anyway who get to the other side, who are able to channel that. And the thing is, is no, it doesn't go away. I still have it.

I do too. So I'm glad I'm not weird. Okay. And so when we talk about that, negotiating that fear internally, I think we've discussed that with the insecurities that fear. But what about others? How can we help them to overcome their fears so they can do what it is that they need to do?

Yeah. So that's something I'm still exploring myself in my work. But one of the things that I've found is to break things down to a really simple level, like, get kind of fun and childish with it. And I'll give you an example. So when I was in my last salary negotiation, I was scared out of my mind because I had done all my research. That's the thing about, like, even if you've done all your research, and I've noticed this with women in politics, they do their research for years and sometimes they still don't take that step forward. That research is wonderful, but it's actually getting to the point where you move through that. And in my last salary negotiation, I was so scared, but I knew I needed to practice, so I sat down with my husband and I said, you need to help me. Just like, let's role play through this with boxes of cereal. And so I had him negotiate with me about which cereal we were going to buy for the cafeteria. And it sounds ridiculous and silly, but that idea of working through those and taking something so trivial that isn't related to money or doesn't have all those money scripts and things like that, taking something like, he was negotiating for Fruity Pebbles and I was negotiating for Something a little healthier and just really going through that process. We got to a compromise and then we worked through the salary negotiation with the numbers before I went in for the salary negotiation. And it was probably. I mean, that didn't take away the fear. Spoiler alert. But it made it so much easier. And so one of the things that I've been exploring lately is when I'm working with women who are running, doing things like pulling out some K cups or sugar packets or whatever we happen to have on the table, and we're sitting down doing fundraising calls and making it about like, let's ask me for some sugar packets and let's negotiate. Making it so simple and really taking all the stuff out of it really helps to simplify and make it a little less scary. Because if you can negotiate and get comfortable with the sugar packets and the compromise or the cereal, it makes it a little bit easier to actually go do it.

Yeah, you're making it more approachable. I think that's really what it comes down to. And what's interesting is that these, these examples that you're giving, they're fun, they don't have to do with money, but they're fun. And the same thing, like the same underlying principles will apply. That's the cool part. Right. Okay. The issue isn't about really the negotiation. The issue is about what you're negotiating for in that case, because you didn't have any problem with cereal, but you had a lot of problem with money. We get it now. Well, great. So here's what we're going to do. We're going to have some fun reps and we're going to practice. You're going to practice your skills in the low stakes environment, and then it'll help you to have more confidence when it comes up. But I really appreciate you saying that. You'll still feel it. You'll just be able to function at a higher level.

Yeah.

And now let's say that was a good example of how your husband worked with you in that situation to get you to feel more comfortable. Let's say you are talking to somebody who you think would be a fantastic candidate. But she says, you know what? I don't feel comfortable doing this. I'm very afraid. I don't think I'm qualified, even though she clearly is. And then the guy that she's running against is significantly less qualified. I don't know if I'm hitting close to home with any of this, but how, how do you have that difficult conversation with her to help her to feel more empowered and overcome those fears. Does your company invest in professional development training? If you believe that your team would benefit from a negotiation workshop, all you need to do is go to our website, fill out the workshop request form, and then we'll set up a time to chat. These workshops are completely customizable and we've done them all around the country. Negotiation and conflict resolution skills are beneficial across all professions, but they're especially useful in procurement, purchasing, sales, sourcing, and contract management. Our calendar is filling up with quickly and we even have some workshops scheduled for next year if you think you might want one. I'd suggest reaching out soon so you don't miss out. Check out the link in the description to learn more and we will be right back after this.

Well, first I will say I have never talked to a woman who has not cited one of those reasons for not running. And every single one of them has already been more than qualified. And so I mean, just side note, for anyone who's listening, if you're thinking about running, you're already qualified. Like, do it anyway. But back to the point, like when I talk to a woman who cites those reasons, there's always going to be a million reasons. One of the last women that I really pushed to run, she had already done a lot of her homework. So this was a woman who kind of wanted to run. She was keeping it really close to the vest, but she had been going to the public meetings for the body she wanted to run for for a while at point. Like literally taking notes, doing research, doing homework, all while she has a full time job and a family. And she continued to do this for two more years before she decided to run. Right? Amazing, right? Like, these are women are incredible candidates to run for office and so are men. But women are incredible candidates because they do their homework and they really put together their plans. Anyway, so she was preparing along the way and I could tell she was really scared and she didn't want to come out with the fact that she was running. But I'm putting it together and I'm going, you're going to public meetings, you're doing all of your homework. You need to run. Like, this shouldn't even be a question. And so I looked her in the eye one time after one of these public meetings and I said, you have to run. And she kind of paused and just kind of stared at me with this like blank, fear stricken face. And I could tell like all the thoughts of maybe I shouldn't run or I'm not good Enough or I'm not qualified were running through her head and I just kept pushing her. I mean, everyone needs something like that in our lives and a lot of times we don't have that person close to us. Right. And so talking through those things like, you are qualified, you've done the work. I think one of the most helpful things that I've done in terms of being able to understand that we're really ready is like identifying the thought. Like what is the thought that's holding us back or what's the self doubt? It's I don't think I'm qualified or I don't think I could win or I don't think I could do whatever. And then writing down and understanding all the times where we've done something that fits the bill. Right. So in my case, when I ran for office, I was super scared and I was like, I'm not qualified. I can't. You know, I don't know if I can play ball with all the people on council because I mean, you're walking into a situation where the city manager has an agenda. Every single person who comes to give public comment has an agenda. Every single city council person has an agenda. But the thing is, I'm somebody who was sitting there after 10 years being in politics saying that to myself. And I realized the fears that I had were the same as somebody who's just dipping their toe in. And so this is pretty universal in terms of looking inside yourself and saying, like, no, I'm going to do this anyway. Because the thing I think more people are starting to become aware of is that we need diversity in opinions, ideas, stories, backgrounds, all of it. And so that's why we all need to. I mean, if somebody wants to run, they should run. That's why.

Absolutely. Yeah. I think one of the points that you made that was so profound and at the same time so simple that I think people would miss it. When you were talking about your, your friend who you were trying to get to run, you looked her in the eye, you were very direct. You didn't come up with any like, long winded oration. You said you need to run four words, direct eye contact there. Don't need fluff. Sometimes you need that direct message. And I'm assuming you correct me if I'm wrong. She did not say, you know what, Sarah, you're right. I will in fact run based on those four words. No, that's not how it worked. Right. Earlier you mentioned Pepsi will. Is there ever a time that Pepsi will stop marketing or advertising.

Probably not.

Probably not. Because that works. Repetition is one of the simplest ways to convey a message. And you need to keep on saying, sometimes you can do this. You're qualified, you should run and just keep on doing this over time, and eventually it becomes part of them. You should do it. You're qualified, you should run. Right. And so it's almost like marketing. It's a blend of negotiation, difficult conversations, but also marketing, because we have to be persistent over time. It's very rare that we get people to overcome their fears right there in the moment. Sometimes it takes a little bit of repetition.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

One of the things that people struggle with is the idea that they need to be perfect. And so let's talk a little bit about that. And first, why that's a problem, because I don't know, Sarah, it sounds perfect, Sounds nice. Why can't people try to be perfect?

You're talking to someone who has lived her life by perfectionist ideals. And it's like, I'm going to tell you right now, like, no one's perfect. I'm not perfect. And getting stuck in this idea of trying to be perfect before we do something or doing things perfectly, one takes the fun out of everything, and two, honestly just gets in the way. And so, yeah, so perfectionism is like a very interesting topic for me because it's something that, like, I have. I mean, it's something that, I mean, as a. As a very type a person, you probably know this already. You want to do everything. You want to do everything the right way and perfect, and it's often not how life is. And I think that walking away from that a little bit and realizing that, I mean, you're human, we're human, we're all human. It gives you a lot more freedom to play around with the possibilities. I know that's very out there, lofty in the sky, but let me give you a really concrete example. Right. So. And this kind of dives into our next conversations in the future about fundraising, but I was running for elective office, and there was somebody that I was fundraising, I was going to be asking for money. Key donor donates to a ton of campaigns. So probably expecting that I'm going to be asking them. And I was so worried about the perfect ask and the perfect conversation and how to ask this person for money, even though they had kind of insinuated they were going to donate to me. I realized at the end of my campaign when the donation check never came in, or it was about two weeks before the campaign, Ended. I don't think I had ever actually asked because I was so worried about having the perfect asking conversation with this person because I regarded that I had a lot of respect for them in some ways. They had a lot of leadership in the community and they were going to donate to me anyway. But I was so focused on how do I ask it perfectly and not offend this person that I never actually asked. Long story short, I eventually realized that rectified the situation. They donated, were very gracious about it. It was fine. But how often do we either forget to do something or allow ourselves to not do something because we're so worried about doing it perfectly?

Yeah. I think perfectionism and procrastination oftentimes are manifestations of fear. So you try to think that you are being productive when you are being, you know, you're. You're avoiding what it is that you actually need to do. I can't tell you how many times, Sarah, there's something that I need to do. Just like, let's talk about administratively, like, hey, Kwame, send that email, fill out that document, those type of things. And I'm like, oh, my gosh, I cannot bear it to do this. And then when I finally do it, you know, it takes about 45 seconds. But one of the things that I found is that oftentimes fear feeds on time. The more time you give it, the bigger it gets. The fear just grows and it becomes more and more debilitating. So, of course, you don't want to make snap judgments and. And put together shoddy work, but you want to say, all right, what is enough? Taking another term that I think it was from us, this decision making book, it was called satisficing. So it's something that is sufficient. It suffices in this situation, and it satisfies what it is that you need. It's not perfect, but is it good enough? Right. And in the majority of cases, you just need to get things done. It just needs to be done. And then if you'd spend a few minutes, a few hours, a few days making it perfect, it is imperceptible to everybody but you.

Yep. Oh, it totally is. Have you heard of minimal effective dosing? I'm sure everyone has. It's from Tim Ferriss. It is a strategy that I started implementing during 2020, during the pandemic. And I found that it was like a very effective antidote for perfectionism for me, because I, like, I broke it down and I'm like, I feel like I have to do, like, 110% of everything on this one task. Right. So I was like, what? What would be minimal, effective dosing? And I would literally like write it down and I would do it. And I found like, the ball started rolling on so many things. And as the ball starts rolling, it starts coming together. And it's certainly not perfect, but so many more things come out of it. And I think creativity is able to be used a lot more of the time in those situations. So similar. And I love it. Techniques like that, I think are just really helpful and just like ripping off the band aid and just doing it anyway.

100%. 100%. And I think this is a good time to transition into asking for money, the fundraising. So let's put this all together. In that situation in politics, you're asking for money so you can have a campaign. It's a necessary evil in this world. Right. And so when you're making those requests and trying to court to the big donors, what are some of the negotiation tactics that you've used that have been successful?

Sure, yeah. So one of them is just, I mean, I think, as you know, in any attorney or anyone's going into a negotiation, you do your research in advance. So, like, you know where the person's coming from. And in our case, donations are public, so you can actually look them up. You can go to the Secretary of state's office, you can go to your local board of elections, and you can actually see how much various people have donated to campaigns, which is awesome, because if you're curious about a donor, you know how much they donate to, say, state races versus local races, and you kind of narrow that gap. So it's one thing just right off the bat, pre work researching, but the other thing I like to walk into a situation or a negotiation over money and fundraising is knowing what the interest is in the campaign. Right. So every single person who's donating to a campaign has a different reason for why they're donating to that campaign. Some people are going to be close to you because they love you and they're your friends and they're your family, and they just want to see you succeed, regardless of whether or not they even agree with your policies. Some people are going to be those community members who have a vested interest in what happens on city council or, or the state House or the governor's race. And that could be anything from they want to make sure that the community has great standards to they literally have an incentive over or an interest in certain policies because they literally affect their bottom Line, Right. So, like, think of a governor who comes in and is more restrictive on certain businesses. That could be an interest point. So there are a lot of different reasons and knowing where. So this is really important. Knowing why you're running and knowing what your values are, I think are the key to being able to walk into these situations and know when to ask for money and then also when to walk away. Every single. I think there's. I think fundraising and money and politics gets a really bad rap because you read the headlines, right? There's been stories in the past year that have just, like, shed a light, and that's really, like the 2 to 5%, the vast majority of money in politics is not this secrecy stuff. And I think that's something that we don't really realize until we're in the political realm. But I bring that up only to say knowing when to walk away. I've never had a situation like this, but I've heard of stories where there are certain donors who want certain things and the money has strings. Thankfully, I was never in a situation with my campaign where any money I took had strings, but if it had, knowing my values, I really would have walked away from that. And so knowing when the negotiation turns to. I'm no longer comfortable negotiating with you, and I need to walk away and save the relationship as opposed to taking the money and then having a problem on the. On the flip side.

Absolutely. Yeah. And I think that's really important for people to recognize, too, because you brought this up. I think people miss it. Right. Because not all money is good money. And if you're not very clear on your values, what you stand for and what you hope to accomplish and your. Your ethics, then in the moment, you're going to feel a lot of pressure. And pressure is a sensation that causes you to make worse decisions, whatever type of pressure it happens to be.

Absolutely.

Right. And so you don't want to leave that up to chance in terms of hoping that you just come up with the best decision on the fly, in the moment, under pressure, with an audience. Instead, you want to prepare and say, okay, what is it clearly that I want in general? What are my values? What are the. What is acceptable? What is unacceptable? And then let me go in and have this conversation.

Exactly, yeah.

And so when it comes to fundraising, what would you say is one thing that people can do in general? If they find themselves in a situation where they're the politician, they're looking for bigger donations, what would you say is one thing that they can do to improve Their quality of fundraising.

The one thing I would tell, and this is just across the board, the one thing I would do is tell anyone when you're asking for money, look somebody in the eye and actually ask. I think that some people think that they have a conversation and then they dance around it and they think they've made the ask, but they really haven't made the ask ask. The vast majority of people you're asking money for, like in any way, packs or individuals or groups, they're expecting you to ask. So make the ask. It's the same thing as making like a salary negotiation. Like you got to actually make the ask and then pause and leave some space, allow them to respond. That would be the one thing. And then if I get out of the second one, it's. If fundraising is really getting you to the point where you're like shaking in your boots, find a way to look at your campaign and your values and see yourself as a brand or a product just momentarily and detach you as the person away from that. Because a donor who's not your friend or family, they're looking at you as somebody of type of leader, like a leadership product, somebody who's going to go there and do a certain thing and that's separate from your personal life. And I think it's really important to do that because sometimes if you can't detach that, it's not you personally, it's this, how you lead and what you do separate from that. It can get way too scary and way too personal for people.

Absolutely. Oh, man, this is great. This is really great, Sarah. We really appreciate it. But before you go, can you let the listeners know again about you and how they can get.

Yeah, absolutely. The best way to contact me is looking me up on LinkedIn. Sarah Jantosh. I love connecting with people who are interested in running for office and helping people remove those barriers. I've been in politics for about 12 to 13 years now on various local, state and national level campaigns. And it's something that I'm really interested in. So reach out to me regardless of political party, because I'm interested in supporting the people who really want to make a difference in our communities.

That's fantastic, Sarah. Thank you so much. Congratulations. You've just joined an elite club by listening to a full episode. You're now officially on the Negotiate Anything team. So welcome aboard. What most team members do is they subscribe to the podcast because that allows them to automatically get the latest episodes of the show. The best things in life lie on the other side of difficult conversations. Keep learning, keep practicing, and keep getting better. Your relationships will improve, your career will soar, and you'll have the confidence you need to get the most out of these crucial conversations. Again, thank you for joining the team. We're excited to have you, and I will see you in the next episode. I'll catch you later.