How To Connect Through Stories With Shakeer Abdullah

Hello, my friends, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. This show is produced by the American Negotiation Institute, and with over 5 million downloads and listeners in over 180 countries, listeners just like you have made this the number one negotiation podcast in the world. Hi, my name is Kwame Christian, and I am the founder and CEO of the American Negotiation Institute here at A&I. We believe that the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And we are passionate about providing you with the best content that will help you to make your difficult conversations easier, both at work and at home. Lastly, I want to remind you that we offer consulting and conduct trainings, both virtually and in person all around the world. Our focus is in three main areas. First, negotiation and conflict resolution. Second, leadership. And lastly, diversity, equity, and inclusion. Check the link in the description below to learn more about how we could work with you and your team. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview.

Shakir, thanks for joining us today.

Kwame, thank you for the opportunity. Glad to be with you on your podcast today.

Yeah, man. Well, thanks for accepting the invite. So how about you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do? Absolutely.

So I'm Shakir Abdullah. I am a senior practitioner for my firm. It is the Practical Diversity Associates. You can catch us@www.pract.com. but I also, during my professional life, I work for a multinational conglomerate. And so I do my consulting and my public speaking and my lecturing. I do that kind of on my own. And happy to join you today and talk a little bit about the work that I do as it relates to diversity, equity and inclusion. And I'll tell you a little bit about my journey to this field and what that work looks like for me. But in general, just a kid from Ohio and come from a big family, and I think those humble beginnings really help set the tone for me in terms of setting my understanding and appreciation for diversity, equity and inclusion in my life and sharing it with others.

No, this is great, man. And I'm excited for this episode because we're going to talk about why or how we can connect with people regardless of their background. And so you're approaching it from the DEI perspective, diversity, equity, and inclusion. But a lot of the listeners are not in that field, but they still have to acquire these skills in order to. To be able to navigate an increasingly diversified workplace. And so this is going to be really, really valuable information for everybody who happens to interact with people who are different from them. Who should be everybody, Right? So this is. This is going to have universal appeals. This is really great. So we're going to talk about some of the tools and tactics that you've seen work really well and what you would suggest. And when you think about the tactics, where. Where do you think we should start? What's the main one?

So part of it is I like to share a little bit about my background, because one of the things that's really critical when we think about this work is connecting with people through personal stories. When people understand each other, when they can relate to some of the experiences that other folks have had, it helps them to let their guard down a little bit, and it helps them move past some of the concern about getting something wrong if they say something wrong. Well, if you're connected with someone, then you realize that the person you're connected to is going to give you a little bit of grace, because you've already built a rapport. People have rapport with folks because they're either co workers or they're clients, or they're folks that they've engaged with on a regular basis. And so when I talk about this work, I like to go back a little bit to my origin story. We look at all the stuff happening in the Marvel comic universe and all these movies and things like that, and they always have an origin story, and the origin story is really there so that you can get to know someone and so that someone can get to know you as a character. I grew up in Northeast Ohio, Akron and Canton, Ohio. One of 20 siblings, grew up in a large blended family. And, you know, my parents had gone to college, but none of them ever graduated from college. But their humble beginnings, their engagement, they were, you know, really active in social justice movements of the time, working for equality and access for black folks in particular. And that kind of set the frame for who I was growing up. I got to meet famous folks. I got to meet people who were in the civil rights movement. I got to meet, be exposed to some of those things. Watch those movies, read those books, hear about the history, and it really just set the tone for me. I was selected to be bused to a school that was different from my siblings. I was a part of the Canton High Ability Program as a child. And it was interesting because I had to grow up fast. I didn't have my siblings to lean on. I didn't have my big brother to look up to and protect me at school. I had to kind of make my own way. And those early experiences really helped me Understand the importance of understanding other people and really being able to communicate who I was. Because I looked different than my classmates. Maybe I talked a little bit different, maybe I thought a little bit different. But I had to find a way to connect. I had to find a way to relate to those folks. And just by sharing some of who I was, that helped to do that, by becoming friends, making friends across diverse groups of people. I got to do things like go on camping trips and things that I wasn't going to do with my family, but I was staying in RVs and things like that. It was amazing for me. And I was also put into some positions and some experiences where I was minoritized. And there were also people who came to my aid. I really learned the importance of allies at a young age because it was the allies that helped me to navigate and to negotiate these spaces. Grew up playing sports when you grow up in Canton, Ohio, my high school was across the street from the Pro Football hall of Fame. Football is a goal, football is a dream. But I was one of those people that understood that football was something I loved, but it wasn't going to be my ticket. So I had to kind of focus, get my grades together, all that good stuff. And I actually had a chance to go to college and play football. But I was on an academic scholarship. I played at Wittenberg University. It's a Division 3 school. And really it was the right place for me. It was small. We only had about 2,000 people. It was actually smaller than my high school. But it was a place where I was challenged to grow. I was put into some leadership positions. I got to know people across from across the country and across the world. My first roommate was from Uzbekistan. And, you know, it was just amazing for me to have these kind of experiences at that collegiate level. And it just set the tone for what my life would be. I got connected to folks, and those connections ultimately led to an opportunity for graduate school at Ohio State. And at Ohio State, I had a graduate assistantship in the Multicultural Center. The Multicultural center was new. This was the first year that they ever had it. And so I'm learning about all these different cultures and all these different backgrounds and perspectives. And that for me, was really the training ground. And that helped me to understand even more perspectives. Right? Because coming from Northeast Ohio, my worldview was limited. But when I got a chance to meet all these folks and engage with all these folks, my worldview broadened. I got to understand different perspectives, I got to understand different ideas, and those things helped me be Open, right? And they helped me to be someone who could learn from others, who could accept difference and find commonality and common ground. And so I'm telling this story now, but it was all about sharing those stories, sharing my story with people who maybe had come from different places, different countries and things like that. Being able to share those stories was critical. And I think, you know, this, that that was the beginning stages, and it just continued to grow from there. Had opportunities to study abroad in Egypt, opportunities to study abroad in Europe. And those things helped me realize that, you know, I thought I knew a. But I didn't know much of anything. And so that was critical. That was critical just to have those experiences.

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Right back after this. Shakir, this is great. This is one of those situations as a podcast host where I forgot that I was hosting and thought I was listening again. This was really great. I was just wrapped in the story. And so there are so many different ways we could go with this. But let's. Let's start here. So when we're doing a lot of our negotiation and conflict resolution trainings, one of the things we say is that our methodology is based on three things. First, diffuse, connect, persuade. So diffuse the emotional tension in the room. Connect with the person creating trusting relationships, and then at the end, persuade. But a lot of times that happens organically, just by handling the emotional attention in the room and connecting on a deep level. And so one of the things that I'm realizing here is that the way that you describe this, this is essentially in that second pillar where we're connecting and we're using our stories, the power of our stories, as a way to connect with others. Because one of the things is that I've realized when I think about human interactions is that stories are a form of currency. And so we share our stories with other people, and then they share their stories, and then we keep on investing reciprocally into each other's relationships and deepening our understanding. Really. Again, we're not trying to persuade anybody per se with our stories, but that doesn't mean that they won't, in fact, be persuasive. But in that storytelling process, we're going to create a deeper connection with other people. And that's how we can connect with people who are like us, obviously, but also start to create connections with people who are different from us as well. Absolutely.

And I think that really kind of leads into another key strategy that I'm thinking about, this whole notion of humility. Right. If you can humble yourself to understand different perspectives, then you're much more open to hearing folks. You're much more open to learning. And I was talking a little bit about my time studying abroad. That was a space where I really had to humble myself because I didn't realize how much I didn't know. I didn't realize how naive I was about the world. And so for me to say, listen, I don't have all the answers. I don't have this correct. Let me listen, let me figure out what's missing from my toolbox, from my toolkit, and pick that up from anybody. Right. Because you can learn from anyone. If you have the humility, if you observe someone doing their job well, then you can say, okay, well, what can I take from what they've done? I mean, I think about Dr. King's quote. He said, if you're a street sweeper, be the best street sweeper that you can be. Whatever your role is, you do it to the best of your ability. And sometimes I just watch by learning. I watch young people watch kids, four kids, and I watched them do things in ways that were different from my. From the way I would have done it. And I'm like, oh, wow, they still got a great outcome. And, you know, you can approach things in different ways. Right. You know, I have conversations, and I watch people in terms of how they train and how they do work, because I'm always trying to learn and pick up a gym here or a gym there. You know, one of the things that I keep with me today, I think about, you know, one of the times that you and I connected at Ohio State, the gathering of men, I think you introduced then Morehouse president, and his name is slipping my mind. But he had the five wells, and he talked about the five wells. And I keep those five wells to this day, and I share them with students. President Franklin was the Morehouse President, but he talks about the five wells. To be well dressed, well mannered, well read, well spoken, and well balanced. Those were the five wells that he talked about. And I remember that to this day because it was so impactful for me, because I said, those are certainly things that you can take with you regardless of your circumstances, regardless of where you come from. I remember growing up. I grew up in a large family. We were not considered middle class. We were poor for lack of a better understanding. But I didn't realize that because we were always so well balanced. We were always so rich in terms of love and engagement. My mother scraped, scraped her money together to buy two sets of encyclopedias. This is obviously pre Google era and all that good stuff. But it was just, you know, I never felt like I was poor. But when I look back and I realize that, hey, there's a lot we didn't have, but we had everything that we needed. You know, I'm one of those folks who's been working since I was about 14 years old to be able to pay for school clothes and to do all those things, because that was a part of my humble beginnings. I remember one summer, my siblings and I going out to pick strawberries and make money. $5 a pallet or something like that. And it was just looking around, meeting people, learning their experiences and seeing what that life was like. So now when I hear about the experiences of migrant workers and experiences of folks who are a part of that life, I can recall, oh, I remember when that was something that I did. I remember how humbling that work was. And for me, all of those experiences have put me in a position where I recognize, hey, I can learn from anybody. I don't know everything. And as soon as I think I know everything, I need to be reminded that I don't. And I think that's just that. The humility, I think, aligns with gratitude, working from a place of gratitude. And I think that's always been my way. I tell people all the time, my name is Shakir. It's Arabic for one who is grateful. And so that is a feature that I have tried to cultivate within myself. Because, you know, if you're grateful, if you're thankful, you know you'll get more. And I think that's a piece that I try to hold on to and demonstrate. So when you operate in humility and gratitude, I think you can open up many more doors and learn from folks who are similar or different from you.

This is. This is great. Well, in a little bit, we will go into how you tell such a good story, because you are good at this, my friend.

Really good.

But I want to draw some of these gems that were. That the audience might have missed. Just recognizing that humility comes from acknowledging the fact that we don't know everything. It's impossible to know everything. And I think a lot of times when we have these conversations, difficult conversations, conversations especially, we get so wrapped up in our ego that we feel like we have to at least put on that we know everything. And then we almost convince ourselves that we do, even though it's really clear that we don't. Right. And so we talked about the importance of telling stories and the power of telling stories. We talked about the reciprocal nature of stories. And so when you tell the story, you get a story in return. And you talked about the importance of listening. We have to then listen effectively to what the person is saying. And a lot of times, we're so eager to inject our own experiences into the conversation that we don't take the time to really fully appreciate the other person's experiences that they bring to the conversation, too. So it's recognizing that humility. Humility is really the foundation of effective listening, too. And I love the fact that you said we can learn from anyone, and that's true. I forget the name of this book, but it was a negotiation book, and the author said, everybody is a genius at something. Everybody is a genius at something. I thought that was so powerful and so respectful, too, because no matter who you are, you have some lived experience that the person that you're talking to doesn't have. You can still educate no matter who you are and what your background is. And so, again, and if you bring that same level of awareness and appreciation to the conversation, and you recognize that every conversation is an opportunity to find somebody's genius to learn from their experience, then it doesn't make. Makes it more of a desire, a natural desire to listen. Like, we're eager to listen to that story so we can connect, but we need to figure out this wisdom here. Shakir, how are you? Like, what are the elements of an effective story? I need to know from you?

No, that's a really good question, and it's interesting that you asked me that question. I think about some of my fraternity brothers on a regular basis because that was a part of my growth. One of my challenges, you know, growing up and even into college was being able to articulate myself and to have the confidence to really share and to tell a story. And, you know, I was never succinct right? I would veer off and lose my point and forget what the punch. Punchline was and all that good stuff. And so it actually came from being around people who were good at storytelling, Right? This whole notion that iron sharpens iron is a real thing. One of my good brothers, Brian May, is really a master at storytelling. And so it is a skill that can be developed and a skill that can be learned. And I think that's a skill I learned from him and some of the others who were in my circle because I watched the impact of effective storytelling, right? I watch the impact of being able to keep people hanging on to your words and keeping people engaged, because it really can make a difference. If you've got some gems to share, if you've got a message to get across, a point to share, and you deliver it in a way that is engaging and intriguing, it really makes a difference. And I mean, I think about the work that I do in terms of public speaking and lecturing and guest lecturing and things like that, and it's really critical for me, as I prepare for those opportunities, to put together something, you know, one that's going to be meaningful to the people who were there. So I certainly want to touch on something that's local, something that's personal, something that resonates with them. It's also meaningful to engage with the folks who maybe introduce you or folks who went ahead of you, because the reality is, you know, sometimes I'm 1, 1 of 3, 4, 5 people in the DS and everybody has something really good to say, and I like to take what I can quickly and hear that. And that's that piece that you just talked about, that art of listening, right? So if you listen and you take something and share, then people say, oh, you were listening, and it just helps them connect with you even more. Right? And so that was a piece that I was actively trying to do as you were leading into this segment, because some of the challenges, I think, with podcasts are you're so eager to get your point across, right. That you miss what the hosts are saying, right. Or you miss what the guest is saying sometimes because you're so focused on that. So that goes back to that active listening piece. So I try to pull in what I've heard from other people in that moment. Right? And I think when you're talking about negotiation, you often probably do that as well, where you restate what someone's position was or what someone has expressed. Because that's just the reality is people want to make sure that you heard them, and the best way to show that you've heard them is to share something that they've shared with you. But again, incorporating that into the story process and then incorporating some humor sometimes. Right. I think it's important to bring humor to whatever the circumstances are. It may not be the best circumstances, but it's okay to crack a smile. It's okay to bring that humor to the space. And I have a bit of a dry humor sometimes, so sometimes people miss my jokes. But it's in there, right? It's in there. And I think for me, those are all aspects of storytelling that are. Are that are critical. Right. And then. Then obviously, that connection piece, we want people to be connected to what I'm talking about. So if I'm sharing a story that someone can't relate to, then that's problematic. Right? So I want to make sure. Make sure I know my audience and. And make sure that I'm connected and make sure that the story I'm telling is relevant to that particular audience. And obviously, as I'm talking with you, this work in this process, when we talk about diversity, equity, and inclusion and that. That growth and that experience, for me, you know, all these things are relevant to our conversation. And so that's why the story seems polished.

That makes sense. But I mean, I want to bring out some highlights there too, because you said, you know, it's polished because you've practiced it. This is a skill. Right. And you talked about how in college, you weren't as good at it as you are right now. And I think that's really encouraging to people because it's a skill, not necessarily a talent. You can improve, or it's a skill and a talent, but you can always improve on those talents for regardless, right? That's really important. One of the things that I started to do is, especially when it's a story I go to regularly in a presentation or in a conversation, I would actually practice it and get feedback from my friends, like, what can I do to make this better? Because, I mean, listen, Shakir, the story sounds great in my head all the time, you know, but sometimes people don't have that same experience, you know? So you need to get that feedback from other people to understand whether or not it's hitting in the right way and then talking about the relevance of the story. We can tell the same story in different ways to different audiences. And as you get more adept in storytelling, you can see the way that they're responding, and you can alter the story as necessary as the Conversation goes organically based on what resonates the most with them. But two things that you also said was important in storytelling is keeping it succinct and staying focused. A lot of times there are these things that come up in the story that are interesting or intriguing to us but completely irrelevant for other people. It's like, oh, was it a Tuesday or was it a Wednesday? Nobody cares. Just forget the days and just get on with the story. Right? And it reminds me of one of my favorite lawyer sayings. They say when they give a written document, they say, sorry, if I had more time, I would have made it shorter. You know, the more polished it is, the shorter it becomes. Because if you give me an hour to tell a story, I mean, I'll take the whole hour. I'll cover everything. It might not be good, though. So those are some of those things that came to mind for me. And then, oh, lastly, huge humor. Humor is a really underrated persuasion technique. It is a really underrated tactic because when you think about what humor does to the brain, it's really fascinating. So, for example, when you think about the limbic system, the amygdala, this is where all of our emotional responses come from. Positive and negative come from the amygdala. But there's an antagonistic response on the frontal lobe. So logical thinking, reason, emotion management, that part of your brain becomes less activated when you're more emotional. So that's why when people are really, like, blind with rage, they can't think straight. But we don't think about the positive, the negative impact on our ability to focus and think at a high level. When we're laughing, too, sometimes we feel too good. And sometimes that's when people are most susceptible to persuasion, is when they feel too good. They're laughing, they're joking, those type of things. And now they're in an increased, a higher persuasive state. Right. They're more susceptible to persuasion. So, again, storytelling is a very, very powerful tool if you know how to use it in these difficult conversations. Absolutely, absolutely.

And I appreciate that. And you broke it down in a way that I was not aware. So I appreciate you breaking down the impact of the amygdala and how humor can make a difference. That's awesome.

Oh, yeah, man. People always think I'm here because of the law degree. It's the psychology degree. That's what I really love. But it makes a lot of sense. It makes a lot of sense because, again, these stories are powerful. And if you make somebody feel comfortable and you Connect with the person makes everything a lot easier. What would you say are some of the biggest mistakes people make when listening to a story?

I think one of the biggest mistakes is listening to respond as opposed to listening to hear.

Right.

I think that is a big challenge because sometimes in your zeal to connect with someone, you just take one piece of the story and hold onto it so that you can say, oh, I. I can relate to that. Right. And then you may miss out on the larger point. You may miss out on, you know, the most important part of the story. And I think that's. That's part of the challenge. I think that's a big challenge with listening. You know, listening to respond as opposed to listening to understand and listening to hear. That's probably one of the biggest mistakes. And I think the other piece, too, is trying to lead or guide the story. Right. And sometimes that happens when folks are having conversations and, you know, they start a story out and then somebody, oh, well, yeah. And it was probably like. Because this is. No, no, no, Slow down, slow down. Let me tell you what I'm talking about. And that's hard for some people to do. It's hard for people to redirect and get back to your story because then you're left feeling like you've been. You were unheard or even marginalized in some ways. And I think when we're thinking about diversity, equity, and inclusion, that's a big piece that can happen. Right. Folks are in such a rush to relate and to show their bona fides and say, hey, I'm really an ally. Look what I did at this one time. Slow down. I'm not asking about that right now. I'm trying to tell this story because I think this story is going to help you understand what my concern and what maybe a larger concern is. And it's hard for people to pause and redirect in a way that doesn't make them feel confrontational or angry or frustrated or whatever it is. And so that's a skill. That redirection skill is important, and it's related, Right. If someone doesn't have the kind of listening skills that we're talking about, if someone doesn't have that ability to listen fully, then it's helpful to have some redirection skills to pull people, you know, back to the conversation.

This is so good. Yeah. Because one of the easiest, Let me say easiest on the surface level, but difficult in application. One of the easiest ways to show respect is by simply listening. But a lot of times we don't have the patience or discipline to actually listen effectively. And so you'll get this. This eagerness to say something. That's the way you described it. You get so eager to say something that you're trying to inject yourself into somebody else's story. And you're doing it because you're just so excited. Share. But on the other side, what they. What they're registering is you are belittling my story. I'm trying to connect with you. And now you're acting like you know my story better than I do. Right? I don't need your help to tell my story. Don't put yourself into it. And so even though you're trying to connect, you're actually doing the opposite by. By interrupting. And they feel as though that you're. You're disrespecting them. And I love the point about redirecting, because this is a skill. Again, that. That is really tough because if you're redirecting, it's likely that, I mean, by definition, the person got off track, right? And especially if the person got off track while you're telling an intimate story or a personal story, those type of things, it can feel like a personal slight, and that triggers an emotional response. You're not at your best when you're emotional. You're not thinking as clearly. And so that's why it has to be a skill, not just an automatic response. Because if you leave it up to your automatic response, it'd be a listen, man, I'm telling a story. I mean, okay, you communicated that very clearly and succinctly. Points for that. But, you know, as far as rapport, that's probably not the best, right? And so that ability to gently redirect the person back on track is really, really powerful. So how do we do that effectively?

And so my PhD research was on multicultural competence. And when we talk about multicultural competence, there are three components to multicultural competence. It's knowledge, skills, right? And so what we're talking about right now are skills. You know, what are some of those skills to redirect conversations? What are some of those skills to manage those difficult conversations, those difficult moments, and, you know, difficult circumstances? We're talking about skills right now. But one of the underrated pieces of multicultural competence is that awareness, right? You have to be able to notice when something is off. You have to be able to notice when something is slightly different, right? Times it doesn't happen in the moment. This is when you get to that space where you're like, oh, man, if I could do it again, I would do this, or I wish I had. You know, that awareness is probably the most underrated but most important part of doing this, right? And so you can't hone your skills if you aren't aware of when you need them, right? If you don't have the ability to process and notice, notice when something happens, you know, it could seem to others that, oh, you're overreacting. Oh, that was small. What are you talking about? I've forgotten all about that. When did that happen? Right? And so it's important to work on your awareness, right? And awareness is not just heightened sensitivity or ultra sensitivity to possible or perceived slights. Awareness is when something is happening that doesn't feel right when it feels off, right? You've got to have some ability to recognize those things. One of the things that I share with folks when we're talking about.

What.

They sometimes call microaggressions, right? This whole notion that someone is doing something to you with the intent, or maybe not the intent, but with the impact of, of triggering you or making you feel uncomfortable, right? So people don't always notice those things when they happen again. That's because they don't always have the awareness. But when you can work on that awareness and pay attention to, you know, yourself and how you feel, then you recognize, okay, something's not right. Let me figure out what's going on, right? How can I respond, right? And so if something happens, one of the things that I try to teach people is that. That figure out what those ouch moments are and articulate it, right? Because if somebody says something to you or does something to you and you just say ouch out loud, it's going to make them think about what they're doing and how they can stop that process. What do you mean, ouch? What are you talking about? Well, you just said this, that, and the third, and this made me feel a certain way. And so I just said ouch because I wanted you to be aware, aware of that impact, right? So that's one skill, that skill to be able to say ouch and to pause those moments, right? And to make people think about it. Because you're not accusing someone of bigotry, you're not calling someone racist, you're not calling someone insensitive. You're just saying ouch and that makes them start to think. Well, what happened to make you say ouch? Well, I felt some kind of way when you showed me that image on your phone. I felt some kind of way when you share that joke out Loud, Right. And then it allows the person who is, you know, doing the action to think about what they've done. But it also allows the person being impacted to gather themselves and to gather their thoughts in a way that is not, not so reactionary. It's just, you know, I felt some kind of way and so I said ouch. And that made you stop what you were doing. And it also made me think about what was happening. So again, when we're talking about multicultural competence, it's knowledge, skills and awareness. Working on that awareness to know when something's wrong or something's off. And then you can start to hone and practice your skills. And there are different skills for different circumstances. That out skill that I shared with you is, is one those things we talked about, redirecting conversations. That's another skill that's there. There's so many skills to build. But it's important for folks to understand that these are buildable skills. These are not just innate competencies, innate things that folks have. These are things that have to be developed over time. And to be honest, I was drawn to this work because I worked with people who, who maybe loved this work but didn't have a lot of research or theory behind that work. And I mean, I'm not a total academic by nature. I consider myself more of a practitioner. But it was important to have that academic background, that academic grounding as I was doing this work. And that was a space that. Multicultural competence was a space that I was drawn to because. Because it measured skill, right? It measured people's abilities to be able to do this work. And I think the piece that I love the most about multicultural competence is that there are no singular demographics that make someone more multiculturally competent than other folks. No race, gender, age, lived experiences. The thing that matters the most when we're thinking about multicultural competence is really just the desire to make a difference. The desire to be engaged and to learn about cultures and experiences and people who are different than you. Those are the things that are strong and significant factors in determining one's multicultural competence. And I always remind folks, it's a journey, it is not a destination. You don't show up at the end of a two hour session multiculturally competent. You are on your journey, you're a part of that journey. I'm always on the journey and I recognize that. And again, it goes back to some of those things. When we talk about humility, the ability to learn from folks, you can find personal stories where you showed up and you thought you were experts and you blew it. Right? You know, you have to recognize those things and you have to be honest and clear with that. But again, that's that piece about awareness. You've got to be aware not only of yourself, but your circumstances, things that are happening as they're happening. And then that awareness allows you to continue to build your skills. And then obviously, when you learn from other folks, it expands your knowledge as well. So those are the things, I think that resonate with me when we're talking about talking about building skill, when we're talking about multicultural competence, the knowledge, skills, and awareness, all of this stuff is related. It's all intertwined. You know, they don't exist in a vacuum. You know, one doesn't exist without the other. And you got to practice. Right? That's the only way we can get better at doing this work and really get better as a space. We've got to practice the skills of being engaged with each other other. We've got to practice the skills of being aware of what's happening and practice, you know, how do we develop those muscles? Right. Because, you know, as a former athlete, I recognize that, you know, practice doesn't make perfect. It's a perfect practice makes perfect. So we got work to do.

This is so good, Shakir. Thank you so much for this. This is great. I'm excited to re listen to this episode, too, because there are a lot of great gems in here. Now, before you go, make sure you let the listeners know who you are about your company and how they can get in touch with you. Absolutely.

So again, I'm Dr. Shakir Abdullah. I am a principal consultant in Practical Diversity Associates. You can find us@www.practive.com. so that's P R A C D I V dot com. And then you can also reach out and book me for speaking gigs at www.doc.S-H-A k.com.a or you can just email me at shakir06gmail.com happy to connect with you. Happy to have some conversations with you. You know, this is the work that I love to do in Kwame. Once again, thank you for the opportunity to speak with you and your audience and to, you know, continue to learn more about your work with the American Negotiation Institute and just everything that you're doing. I'm so proud of your success and happy to be one of those folks that knows you and has seen you continue to grow over the years. So certainly apprec. Appreciative of the opportunity today.

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Will see you in the next episode. I'll catch you later.