How to Create Sustainable Negotiations with Eliane Karsaklian, Ph.D, HDR

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. Thanks for joining us today. With over 10 million downloads and listeners from more than 180 different countries, it's dedicated listeners just like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of of the American Negotiation Institute. Now, before we get into today's insightful conversation, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives. Have you ever found yourself wishing that you could navigate those high stakes conversations with more confidence? Or perhaps you're looking to empower your team with the art of persuasion and conflict resolution? At the American Negotiation Institute, we've crafted specialized keynotes and workshops tailored for those very needs. We've transformed the negotiation skills of professionals worldwide, and we're eager to do the same for you. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And our goal is to help you improve your lives and the lives of those around you, one difficult conversation at a time. Don't let another challenging conversation leave you second guessing. Click the link in the description to discover how we can help you find confidence in conflict, negotiate better deals, and have stronger relationships. Because in the world of business, every conversation counts. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Eliane, thanks for joining us today.

Thank you for having me.

It's my pleasure. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Okay, so my name is Elian Cacheclian, I am French and I am working right now in the University of Illinois at Chicago. And my field is international business, mainly international negotiation and international marketing. I've been working for companies across countries and across industries for more than 20 years before I got through PhD and all the degrees you gotta get to be an academic. And today I am an academic as well as a consultant in international business. So this is pretty much what it is.

That's great. That is great. And we're really excited to have you on the show to talk about international negotiation because, yes, it's negotiation, but there are some key considerations that we need to keep in mind. And considering how global things have become and how connected we are now with the web, I think it's more important now than ever to understand and have a full appreciation on the international aspects of negotiation. So we are excited, excited to have an expert on the show today.

Oh, very much. Thank you And I am very much excited too.

Fantastic. So let's start off with just kind of giving the listeners a rundown of what we're going to talk about. First, we're going to talk about your concept of the sustainable negotiation mindset. And then the importance of after the deal. Negotiation, after the deal, and then why international negotiation is like no other type of negotiation. So first let's talk about the sustainable negotiation mindset. So what is the sustainable negotiation mindset? Let's just start there.

Okay, so that is the title of my book which was released in 2017, because I rooted all my theory on physics, classical physics and quantum physics, explaining that after all, all the natural phenomena and everything that we see in physics are just like culture. There are several things that prevent us to understand about culture because we don't link it to something we are already familiar with. So I created a metaphor, which is the rainbow. Why? Because the rainbow is intangible, yet visible. And this is what culture is. We only have a partial view of the rainbow because it stops at the ground, while the rainbow is actually circular because it's a drop of water. And the culture is exactly the same thing. We just see the way people behave, but we don't see why they behave the way, what is behind their behavior and what is actually shaping their behavior. And so there are, you know, you never really can touch the rainbow. You can see it from distance. And this is also what happens with culture. So there are several similarities. And sustainable negotiation to me means that we need to think about not only long term relationships, but certainly about more sustainable relationships. It's not about saving the planet, it's about, it is about saving your relationships with your partners. Most of the theories about negotiation are short, termed. You go, you negotiate, you sign a deal, it's done. I don't see it that way. Mainly now because we might think that the markets are getting bigger because we talk a lot about global marketing, global markets, and we are, as you just said, all interconnected. The markets are shrinking because of all the mergers and acquisitions we have every day around the world. That means that we have less and less independent companies and more and more companies that are part of big corporations. And I like to say that this is just like when you go to a dance party. If you don't pick the people you want to dance with at the beginning, at the end, you might just dance with someone you don't want to or just don't dance at all. So, so sustainable negotiation means that you are picking your partners now and you are Negotiating with them in a way that this can be long lasting, a long lasting relationship because you understand each other and because you have the same vision of future. The key term of sustainable negotiation to me is the vision of future. It's not short term, it's not long term, but is what do you want a company to be in the future? And you need to find your partners who would have more or less the same vision of future than you, and then you can walk towards the future together. So this is pretty much what the concept of sustainable negotiation is about.

I love that. And I find that metaphor of the rainbow really fascinating. And one of the terms that comes to mind when I think about that is perspective. Because the, the rainbow will be perceived differently depending on where you are situated, right? Even if we're physically relatively close to each other, it will be very different. And I think about times where I excitedly call family members in different parts of the city. I say, look, there's a rainbow. They say, no, there's not. You know, so I really like that. And especially that intangible aspect of it that's really interesting. And now let's say hypothetically, if somebody doesn't understand the culture, the different cultures that are at play during these negotiations, in international negotiations, what are the dangers of not perceiving that rainbow and understanding it?

Well, there are several dangers. You know, first of all, you might seem rude while you were not. I mean, you didn't mean to be rude, but you might, because you don't understand the codes and because you don't understand them or you are not aware of them, you're not respecting them. Second, you know, time management is not the same in all cultures. So in some cultures, people might feel like you are rushing them. And in some other cultures, people might think that you are just taking your time and, you know, beating around the bus rather than getting really started with the negotiation. So you need to know about that. And there is also a matter of hierarchy. Who is it that you are sending abroad to negotiate with your partners? You need to have the equivalent in terms of hierarchy. Otherwise they might think that you are not paying respect to the negotiation, or that you are not taking that seriously or in any way they are going to take it the wrong way. And you can make a lot of blunders just because you are not aware of the culture. And of course we are not doing it in purpose. Sometimes you don't even realize that you are doing so. For example, in some cultures you are going to be invited to several social activities and you might think, what does this have to do with our business? I'm here to do the business, not to attend birthdays or weddings or any other social event. I just, I just, you know, don't know these guys. Why, why would I join in? And declining this kind of invitation is a big blunder. Because it is important to understand that very little is decided in an office. When we are negotiating, a lot is decided outside of the office. So we have lunches, dinners, social events. We have plenty of things. And these can be critical to a decision. It's not a waste of time. It is part of the negotiation.

Absolutely. And I think really, this is the most important point that we'll hit in this interview. So for the listeners out there who have international negotiations and with the power of Zoom and Microsoft Teams, you are having international negotiations. Right. If you're having international negotiations, I strongly recommend buying the sustainable negotiation mindset. Okay. And so that's the most important point of this podcast. So there will be a link in the description below for that book so you can get easy access. And it's really funny, Elian, that you say this because you're right. A lot of the mistakes that we make will be significant blunders. And I think the thing that makes them so, so dangerous is the fact that we might not even perceive the fact that a mistake has been made. And think about the other metaphor that you used of a dance partner. We are these. This is an elaborate dance for a long term, like a long term relationship we're trying to create with these people. But what might end up happening is that as we're dancing, we are stepping on their toes over and over and over again and we don't know it. And then they don't. They want to go dance with somebody else. And we say, what? What's wrong with them? Well, when in reality it's all you.

Absolutely. Absolutely.

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And one of the things I really insist on in all my books about negotiation is that this thing about win win and win lose are just illusions. You shouldn't go to a negotiation like you're going to a battleground because you are looking for partners. You are looking for people who are going to help you get there in the future. If you are negotiating with someone is because you need them. Otherwise you are not wasting your valuable time traveling, negotiating, preparing your negotiation, that is for sure. So if you are doing that, do it the right way. Why would you want to fight people you need? You know that to me, this theory, and I'm sorry because I know that it is very widespread, but it doesn't make any sense to me, when you negotiate with someone is because you need that person. So you are not fighting your dance partner because otherwise this will end up being a very distasteful evening for everyone. If you are dancing with them, you know, pick up on the pace and just enjoy the dance. And you are going to see that by the end of the evening, everyone will be happy and your partner would be willing to dance with you again. And this is what you want. If you are aggressive, if you are, if you want to be the winner of whatever you are winning. You think you are winning in a negotiation. Think about the person you are making loser in your negotiation. How do you think that they are going to feel? And are you expecting them to be in good spirits to work with you? I don't think so. So that is also an important point that I stress in my books, is that forget about the winning and just go and pick the partner you need. Do it properly so that the partner will stay with you and help you to leverage your activity and meet your objectives. Because after all, this is all you need is really to reach your objectives.

Absolutely. And I think that gives us a perfect segue into the next point that you made, which is the importance of what happens after the deal. And I think this is something that people often overlook because we're often so transactional in the way that we interact with people. We say, hey, we got the deal done. Let's move on to the next one. Right. So when you think about what needs to happen after the deal, what are some of the key elements for you?

Well, that is so, so true what you're saying. And this is exactly what happens. People think that negotiation is over when you sign a deal. The whole focus is on signing a deal. What people don't realize is that a deal, a contract is theory, is a piece of paper you have signed, right?

Right.

And what you did through that contract is that you agreed on working together. But real life starts when you start working together. And this is all what I say in the after deal. Yeah. Because it is mainly after the deal that you start identifying and noticing differences in business practices. Because, of course, you need to be culturally aware when you are going at the table of negotiation. We often call it the moment of truth. It is when, after having prepared your negotiation strategy, you are there and you are negotiating with the partners you want to have. But once you sign the deal with them, now it's what, let's get down a business. Now it's when we are going to have an action plan and we are going to cooperate. That is why I make the difference between collaboration and cooperation. Because you need to collaborate while you are negotiating your deal. But once you sign the deal, then it is all operational, and this is when you cooperate. So if you and I were signing a deal today, all we are doing is agreeing to work together. But tomorrow we are going to really work together, you and I and our respective teams. So how is this going to work? You know, perhaps we don't have the same business practices. Perhaps we don't have the same time management. Perhaps we don't have the same management hierarchy. Perhaps you don't agree in several things. And that is when also companies get really surprised because say, wow, we agreed on that. Yeah, we agreed and we are doing what we agreed is that we would do it differently. And what people always tell me when I'm training about international negotiation, they say business is business, and business is the same everywhere. You know, you wear your suit and you go and you talk to people. Yeah. Can't disagree with that. Business is business. It's just. And we do the same things every day everywhere, but we do them differently.

This is an incredible distinction, because I've never heard anybody draw a distinction between collaboration and cooperation. And it makes so much sense because if we go back to the metaphor that you presented of the dancing, so we have a dance partner. Theoretically, when we're thinking about these deals from a sustainability perspective, the dance really, like we're engaging with this with the intention that the dance almost never ends. Right. So we decide that we're going to dance together. That would be the collaboration portion. And then now how do we dance together is the cooperation, how do we operate? And it makes me think about different deals. Let's say a merger between companies. So the two companies might come together, they might negotiate, possibly collaboratively, to figure out what the deal actually is. And then what ends up happening is oftentimes after the deal is done, the cultures don't mesh, the operational structures don't mesh, and they're kind of missing the, that second aspect of the continuation of the negotiation where now we need to figure out how to we operationalize this agreement. Am I understanding that the right way?

Perfectly. And you know that this also applies to domestic collaborations and cooperations. When you have mergers or acquisitions, you belong to the same national culture. But companies have different corporate cultures. Well, they don't operate the same way anyway, even if they are in the same industry, let alone if they are from different industries. And if you add different national cultures, you can't expect people to behave like you because they are not you.

Right. It makes so much sense. Okay, so now let's think about this. When we're thinking about the negotiation skills that we need for the actual negotiation, where we're collaboratively working with them to figure out what the deal could be versus after the fact, when we're thinking about sustainability, how do we, what negotiation skills do we need in order to handle that subsequent negotiation for sustainability and operational alignment?

I would say that one of the main skills is understanding that paradoxes exist, contradictions exist, and getting rid of them is not always the best solution. Why? Because when you have a more short term point of view, you tend to eliminate, you know, one by one all the alternatives you have. And at the end you are going, well to end up with one or two, and then you are going to be in a dilemma and you need to pick the right one. Well, that is a very risky decision because what if the right one is right today and it won't be right tomorrow? Because context changes and we rarely take context into account. So there is a clash that often happens when people from different cultures negotiate. And there are people who think, well, we just signed the contract, we're done, now go and do your job, I'll do my job and everything will be okay. It doesn't really work that way. And then you have people who are more long term and more contextual and they will adapt themselves to the context. When the context changes on the other side, they will say, stop renegotiating the terms of our contract. And these people will say, I'm not renegotiating. The context is changing. So we need to adapt to the context. And that creates a real issue between both companies because they don't understand, they don't have the same perception of the situation. For one of them, it's obvious things are changing. We need to change too. And for the other one is. So what you promised was not really a real promise. You didn't really intend to do what you said because now you are changing. We had an agreement and you are changing our agreement. So how can I trust you now? You might change your mind tomorrow again. And then, you know very well, I mean, you know, no trust, no business together. So it can't last long if you don't have trust. Trust takes a lot of time to build, but it can be broken in few minutes. And then it's very, very hard to get back to trust again or to a healthy relationship.

Right? 100%. 100%. And I'm going to shout out an episode we had earlier, a couple years ago with Dr. Kim Elsbach, I believe is her name, and it was how to rebuild trust after it's lost. The thing that I learned from talking to her was that you don't want to lose trust because it's really hard to rebuild it after it's lost. Yeah, so you're exactly right.

Yeah. Yeah, it is. And if you go back to the dance metaphor again, we can agree we're going to dance, but perhaps in some mantra, you're going to say, oh, I'm bored of dancing rock all the time. Let's switch to vase. And I'm going to say, now, but I don't want to dance vase. But we agreed that we are going to dance. However, if you are compatible and you know what you are doing and you enjoy dancing together because you have better results than dancing with someone else, and then we can get better and better, and then we can think about dance competitions and we can think about several other things that we can do together. And that is the future.

Absolutely. I love it. I love it. And now, with the time that we have left, let's talk about the unique challenges of international negotiation. And in your words, you say we have to discuss why international negotiation is like no other. So what comes to mind for you when you think about that?

Well, for starters, the very first thing you need to do when you are about to negotiate internationally is know about the culture. What people rarely do. They will focus on the negotiation. They will focus on the price, of course, and they will focus on what is important for them to get. They will be focused on everything that is more tangible and they will leave the culture for later. If you knew how many times I saw international negotiators preparing their cultural understanding on the plane before landing, you would be as shocked as I have ever been.

So.

That is you need to do happens the other way around. First, understand the culture of the people you are going to work with. Then you can establish your strategy. If you don't know who you are talking to, you can have the right strategy anyway. So first think about who are these people. Learn about them, learn about their culture, learn about their business practices, and then you can design your negotiation strategy. If you know who you are talking to, how can you convey a message that they can't understand or that you can accept? You can't do that.

It makes so much sense. And Elian, tell me if I'm conceptualizing this the right way, because I think a lot of negotiators make the mistake of thinking that culture is one of the pillars of strategy, when in fact it seems as though culture is the foundation upon which your strategy should lie.

Absolutely, you are perfectly right. And we all know that culture permeates everything we do. The clothing, the thinking, the mindset, the greetings, the relationship with other people. So why would it be any different when you are negotiating, it permeates your whole thinking process. Your strategy, your behavior, everything. So why would anyone neglect understanding someone else's culture? When you are working with people from other countries, you need to know.

Absolutely. And so I can think about two great ways that people can get a better understanding, and I want you to help me with a third. So way number one, first, buy the sustainable negotiation mindset. Way number two, work with Elian as a consultant. And now number three, what would be something else that people can do as they're preparing for their negotiations to get a better understanding of the cultures at play?

Well, there are several sources of information about the cultures they are going to work with. I wouldn't recommend the do's and don'ts listen because they are perfectly stereotyped and they also are not always updated because cultures change. Not very quickly, but they do change. And because we are interconnected. So the business practices also go back and forth and sometimes they are shared, sometimes they are not among different cultures. So you need to know about the culture. There are several sources of information about the cultures. You need to pick the most reliable sources. Of course, you need to have information about the country and about the market. You don't want to get surprised during the negotiation when people are telling you what you are supposed to know. Right? You look like a little bit silly when people are teaching you something that you were supposed to know. So that is not good either. But I know that we are experiencing very unique times and we can't travel the way we should. But there is no better way of getting to know a culture than going there. And when I mean going there, it is really in immersion. It's not going to an international hotel and hanging out with international people. It is walking around, it is sitting in a restaurant, it is chatting with the waiter, it is chatting with people, it is observing people. This is how we learn about the culture. It's also interacting with people from that culture and so that they can brief you and they can tell you how they are, how they work with in the business environment, we always know someone who worked with someone, and that is also a great way of gathering information, not only about the culture, but about their business practices.

I love it. Oh, that's fantastic. That is really great, Elian. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for joining us today. We really, really appreciate it.

Thank you so much for giving me the opportunity of sharing this, and thank you for being so welcoming.

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