How to Efficiently Grow Your Revenue with L'areal Lipkins

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another episode of Negotiate Anything. Thanks for spending time with us today. It's listeners like you in 181 different countries that have made Negotiate Anything the most popular negotiation and conflict resolution podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, professor, and the director of the American Negotiation Institute. Before we get started, I have two quick questions for you. Is negotiation a critical part of what you do need to resolve conflict and persuade at work?

If you answered yes to both of.

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Lariel, thanks for joining us today.

Thank you for having me.

Yeah, it's my pleasure. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Yeah. So my name is Lariel Lipkins, and I'm the CEO of Lipkins Consulting Group. And I really specialize in working with companies who want to convert more prospects into paying clients. So I do that through sales training and consulting.

Fantastic. Well, great. We are excited to have you here. And now, when it comes to sales, why is it so important for us to really have a good understanding of the things that we're going to talk about today?

So, well, if you don't know how to sell, you're not going to have a business. Right. So I think that's really important. Let's just cut and dry, right? I think there's two things you have to be really good at in business, and that's marketing getting leads in the door and sales converting them. So if you are a business owner or if you're in a sales role or you have to sell your ideas in an organization, you need to know how to sell.

Love it. Fantastic. All right, so the three things we're going to talk about today, number one, setting ground rules. Number two, finding their win. And number three, co creating a sale solution and setting ground rules. Lariel, you were the first person to say this in the context of an episode. So I was really pumped to see what you had to say about this. So tell our listeners, what is it that we need to know about setting ground rules?

You know, Kwame, so a lot of times I find that salespeople, business owners, entrepreneurs, when they are in a selling situation, they make a common mistake, and that is that they walk into sales conversations, or rather they get on zoom for sales conversations in the world that we live in today, and they have their goals, their agenda in mind, and they don't check with the prospect to see what it is that they want to get out of the meeting. And so setting ground rules is really making sure that you and your prospects, or you and your counterpart, if you're doing an internal meeting, are on the same page. I know that's like an amazing, revolutionary idea, but you'd be surprised how many times we're having conversations, or even at home, where you're in the same conversation and you have two completely different outcomes. There's two completely different perceptions of it. And so setting ground rules really has four key parts. The first is checking for time. So if you're having a meeting with someone, and let's pretend that you set this meeting two weeks ago or even two days ago, life happens, especially when you're living in a pandemic, right? And so you always want to check for time. Hey, Kwame, are we still good for 30 minutes? I have us down to end at 9:30. Does that still work for you? Some kind of checking for time is crucial. The last thing that you want to do is be in your flow. And they're like, hey, Kwame, love it, but I have to hop off to an meeting, right? You do not want that to happen. So you always want to check for time. The other thing that you want to do is that you want to find out what's important to them. In other words, what do they want to get out of this meeting? So I always say, what are the top three things that you want to cover right now? This is in the context that maybe you all haven't established what the agenda is, right? So always say, hey, Kwame, what are the top three things that you want to make sure that we get covered in our 30 minutes that we have? And then you say, okay, great, here's what I want to get covered. And the amazing thing is, one, you get to pivot your agenda, right? If you're on, like, two totally different pages, but then also by asking their agenda first, you find out what's important to them. And if you're in a selling situation, this is like a news flash. What is important to your prospect is more important than what's important to you, right? And so getting their agenda on the table allows you to kind of see where they are in the buying process. So if they're like, hey, I want to know your price. I want to know what other type of companies that you Worked with. And I want to know what makes you different, you know, up front, how you're going to need to position your sales conversation and perhaps what questions that you need to ask. So you want to do time. What do they want to get out of the meeting? What do you want to get out of the meeting? And then at the end of the meeting, what do you want to have happen again? I know that's like revolutionary, but you'd be surprised how many times salespeople go into meetings, entrepreneurs go into meetings. They have discovery calls or sales calls. They have great conversations with no definable outcome. It's like, hey, I had a great conversation with Kwame. I have no idea what's happening next. That's not good for you. And it's definitely not good for the prospect because you end up chasing deals and spending a lot of time following up with people. You want to get a definable outcome.

Yeah, it makes so much sense, Lariel. And it is so funny because once you said it in our pre interview chat, I was saying this. It makes so much sense. Right? But like you said, people don't do this. People don't do this. So why don't people do this?

1 I think people don't know is one of it. You know, they, they are. A lot of people get into sales and they think, let me just, let me just be really good at building rapport. Let me just wow you with my personality. I'm really good at follow up. By the way, anytime a salesperson says I'm really good at follow up, that tells me they're really good. They're really bad at the setup and they're really bad at closing. Right. And so I think sometimes people just don't know. And then the other thing I think a bit intimidating for people sometimes to have some structure to it and they don't want to be pushy or they don't want to be assertive. And this really isn't about being pushy. It's really doing your prospects a service and a favor because they're not going well. What am I supposed to do? What are we going to be talking about? How long is this meeting going to be? How long is this meeting going to take? So it really allows you and them to get on the same page. So I just think a lot of people don't know. And then those people who have heard this or some kind of variation of this may be intimidated to do it, which is why they spend so much time negotiating on the back end and chasing deals on the back end because they didn't set it up the right way to begin with.

Makes a lot of sense. And I can definitely see how it could be intimidating, too. Not wanting to be pushy, right? Because typically when we have a conversation, it's like, hey, you want to talk? I want to talk. Let's talk. And then it just kind of flows organically. It almost feels as though it's too rigid or too controlling, and they don't want to push people off. But correct me if I'm wrong, it seems as though if you do this the right way up front, the person actually appreciates it.

Exactly right. Appreciates it because I'm showing that I'm being respectful of your time. We're not going to sit here for 30 minutes and not figure out what we're doing Right. So it's saying up front, hey, what's important to you? Great. Here's what's important to me. Great. Hey, Kwame, at the end, I'm hoping a couple things could happen. You may say, hey, lira. It's a no go. It doesn't make sense. Please let me know that the last thing I do is want to fill your inbox with a bunch of messages. Just following up with you. On the flip side, Kwame, if you do think I can help you and you think that I can provide a solution, what I would like to do is spend the last five minutes really mapping out what our next steps look like. I'm telling you, this is gold. And it not only works in the office or in a zoom meeting or an internal meeting, it works at home. Because, Kwame, I don't know about you, but I've had conversations with my spouse, and I thought we were on the same page, and we weren't. And so even being able to say, hey, do you have five minutes? And that actually means five minutes, or do I really need 30 minutes? I'm guilty of that. I asked for five minutes, but then it takes me 30. But getting clear about that, because then he'll check out. He's like, you asked for the five minutes, and you took 30. Or, you know, can you do this? Can you do that? And then we're having some definable next steps. So this not only works in the boardroom, but it works at home as well.

Oh, this is fantastic. And something that I've said on the show all the time is that I'm much better at these communication skills externally than internally. You know, with my family, I start to get loose with my skills that I'M like, why don't you get me? It's like, because you're not using the skills you talk about all the time. Exactly. And it makes a lot of sense. And so, okay, so let's say we're trying to use this at home in a more informal environment. But we all know that those conversations at home with our loved ones are often the most important, the most impactful. Right. So how do we do it in a way that the other person doesn't feel like they're getting managed by you? So they don't feel like they're getting your professional self, but not your personal, open self.

Yeah. And I think the thing about this is, especially at home, this doesn't have to be a trick or like a hack or a tool. Right. It could be, hey, I really want to focus on our communication. I at least want to focus on my communication. And so I want to be respectful of your time. I think it's okay to let them know what you're doing. It's actually better for them to know what you're doing. So it's a process that you all just use internally when you all communicate. And so I think it can be very informal. Let's pretend you're having a financial conversation, which. Those are always fun, right? Said no one ever. Those can be very big and they can be overwhelming and they can be intimidating. And especially if you have someone that's like a spender and someone's a saver. Oh, that's like my house. Right? I'm the spender. Those conversations can be very intimidating. But if we can say, hey, on Friday, can we have, like a money date? Can we have a money conversation for, like, 45 minutes? And you bring this and I bring that. And if you'll think about, you know, the three things that you think we could be doing different to meet our financial goals, and I'll do the same. And then at the end, let's kind of map out a plan for 2021. Like, how easy is that conversation? No one feels like they're going to be blindsided. No one feels like they're going to be made to feel guilty or ashamed. And better yet, we're going to have an outcome, Right? We're not just going to have the same conversations over and over, but we're saying, hey, let's come up with a solution at the end of all this talking. Right? So it works. It works, it works. And you can make it as formal as you need it to be or as informal as you need it to Be.

Absolutely. And the listeners probably remember that talking about finances, too. We just had Patrice Washington on the show. Her episode.

Oh, I love her.

Yeah, her episode went live on Monday and we were. I remember doing that episode and it sounded like a counseling session. I was like, man, I needed this.

10 years ago, have you been talking to my wife? Right.

But it makes so much sense. Again, using these techniques from this right now, setting ground rules, but just the show in general, Right? We can use these techniques at home and still have better results just by introducing a little bit of structure to these everyday conversations.

I even used to have a four year old. So I have a four year old and a nine month old. Same thing with him. Now, I don't say, like, what do you want to do? Necessarily?

Right.

But I might say, hey, you're going to be able to play that for 10 minutes. And after 10 minutes, this is what's going to happen. Right? So there it isn't this surprise. And that has been a game changer because I was the type of parent that's like, hey, we're done with that. Let's do that. And he would be in the middle of something. And I thought, as a parent, I'm just cutting you off and I'm gonna move you on to the next thing. Now just say, hey, quincen, you have 10 minutes to wrap that up. And then when you're done with that, we're gonna go take a bath. Right. And now he knows what to expect. So it isn't like the full process, but the concept is still there.

Yeah. That's fantastic. I love it.

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And I'm assuming preparation beforehand is critical when it comes to being able to introduce this structure at the beginning of the conversation as well, Right?

Exactly. Yeah. You want to practice this, right? You want to think about what it is that you want to have happen. And I just had a coaching conversation with a client today and we were talking about this same framework because he was really struggling in closing deals and his deals were taking too long to close. He was great at building rapport. He was great in the middle. He struggled at the setup of his meetings and at closing the meetings. So having great conversations but not converting. And so I said, you really need to practice this. And the number one thing is piece of advice that I gave him was you need to work backwards. What is your ideal solution? Like, what is the win that you're trying to go for? And then that's how do we set up your setting up expectations and ground rules that will allow you to get to that outcome. So I think a lot of times we're having conversations, especially if they're difficult conversations, and we're only thinking about like the front end, but we're not thinking about what's the win, like what's the ideal solution. And for me, I found it works better to figure out what's the end result and then work backwards.

Yeah, absolutely. That makes a lot of sense. And listeners, when you have your difficult conversations and your negotiations, remember, download those free guides that we have on the website americannegotiationinstitute.comguide. you can get access to all 15 of our free negotiation guides there too. And I think this is a great chance for us to transition into the second point, which is finding the win. And so what do you mean by finding the win for them?

Yeah, I think a lot of times, especially in sales, we're thinking about what's the win for us versus thinking about what's the win for them. And so you want to be thinking about what would their personal win be, what would success look like for them? And then it's much easier to then tailor your solution in a way that's going to help them get closer to their win. And so I'll give you another really practical example. Had a client where they want to do some affiliate marketing to help generate some sales. And so we've been working on this concept. I'm not sure if you've heard of it, of your dream 120. Have you ever heard of that?

Yeah.

Chad Holmes. So I had them create their list of their dream 100. And we came up the strategy for each one. I said, you're not going to pitch each one to say, can you be an affiliate for this? By the way, getting affiliates is still a selling role. Right. I got to sell you on being an affiliate. And so I said, what you need to find out is what's their personal win? Like, what value can you offer to them? What goal are they working on that you can position being an affiliate will help them achieve? Right? And so maybe that's getting in and being on their podcast, right? Is the way that they can introduce you to their audience. Or maybe it's doing a webinar with them. Maybe it's co creating, doing a special program. Maybe it's an exclusive offer that's specific to their audience. Right? But it's finding out what is their personal win. And I think that is incredibly important because a lot of times, salespeople, entrepreneurs, it's all about, what's the win for us? And if you can't help other people get their win, they're not going to help you get theirs. And so I want you to be thinking about, what is their personal win? And so one of the questions that I include in my sales process is, if we were to work together, Kwame, what would you need to see a year from today or even six months from today to say that this was worth it? And what I'm really saying is, what would be a win for you right now? This is before I've sold them anything. This is before I've pitched my services. But I need to find out, what does success look like for you? What is that personal win for you? That is a game changer, by the way. That's a question that 99% of salespeople are not asking. Right? And so that's going to make you stand out.

Absolutely. Now, let's go into that question, because I asked a similar question. I want to see if you're having a similar response when you ask that question. How do people respond to you?

It depends, right? The initial response is, what would success look like for me? Huh? That's the initial response because they've never thought about it. Now here, why. Here's why that is so important, and here's the mistake that a lot of people make is then when they're the selling position, they rescue them. Well, what I mean is. And no, you need to let them wrestle with it, because the moment they go, I've never thought about that, what they're really saying is, you're making me think different, therefore you must be different, therefore you probably will provide a lot more value to me, and we could do a lot less negotiating on the back end, right? So when they wrestle with that and they say, well, Kwame, I don't know. I don't know. Well, you let them rest, wrestle with it, and you sit in the uncomfortableness of it to let them figure out what that would be. Not making suggestions of what that could be, and even being able to say, you know, Kwame, you're not alone. I talked to a lot of CEOs, a lot of entrepreneurs, and they haven't really thought about that. So, yeah, give it a moment. It's okay. But you really want them to sit in that moment that is like a. That's a mic drop moment. Just in case y' all didn't catch that. Letting them sit in that. That feeling of uncomfortable, because that's pushing them to think different as well, which means your value just went up.

Absolutely. And listeners, this is something I want you to pay attention to. I think we have our five star points. So if you are listening to this point of the episode, I feel like you like the show. So give us a five star review. Review. And give Lariel a shout out, too. And subscribe as well. I think, Lariel, that's a great question. And the thing is, when I ask that question, sometimes I almost take it almost like a game. It's like a point that I score because I want to ask questions that make people sit back and say, hmm, that's a great question. And then they sit in silence. And it's like you said, we use that silence. We're actually mobilizing that discomfort and that awkwardness because there's a lot that's happening beneath the surface. We had a whole episode on the strategic use of silence with Julia Ewart in September. And so, yeah, absolutely. It's really, really powerful. And that's the thing, what we're recognizing, too, is that they haven't fully thought it out. They might just say, I have a sales team. They need sales training. Going to check that box. Right.

I have this amount of money to spend. Spent it.

Yep, exactly. And so you're forcing them to wrestle with it and create that future. Then again, what you do is you hear what they're saying, and then you can co create that future with you. Wow. It makes sense. That's literally what's coming up. It's coming together. This is great. And so when it comes to finding the win, what challenges have you had when it comes to getting that visualization of what they actually want?

You know, I think it's really about the level of questions that you're asking and the amount of rapport that you've built. Right. To ask that question requires a certain level of Rapport with that person. So where they trust you with the answer. I've had people who their response to that wasn't that they would have more sales, which is another key. Sometimes people are scared to ask that question because they already feel like they know the answer. Right. Well, of course, Larreal, you do sales training and consulting. Their win would be more sales. I had one gentleman who said, I have an autistic son. The win for me would be able to generate enough revenue to provide the amount of care that he's going to need for the rest of his life.

Wow.

Like that. That requires a certain amount of rapport. I've also had people say, the win for me is that I actually be able to make it to my 7 year old's soccer game versus being at the office because we don't have enough revenue coming in. And I'm trying to figure out how I can get more money in the door. Right. I've heard people say a win for me would be taking vacations. You'd be surprised. More often than not, the win isn't monetary. And when you get to that level of trust with people, that's amazing. So if you're listening right now and you're like, well, I love the question, like, it was good. But I know the win for me in my business, it would be this. Or the win for the people I'm talking to would be this. Ask the question. Because when you get something that is not related to what you actually sell, that's when you know you've gotten to a point where you're no longer going to be seen as a commodity. Or like another me too consultant entrepreneur, you're at a totally different level. And so I think the biggest challenge that people have is they assume that they already know the answer, therefore they don't feel like they need to ask. I guarantee you, in my experience, once people actually process that answer or process the question rather, the answer is not related to what you sell. And even if it is. So, for example, Kwame, if they say, well, you know, the win for me is that my people are closing faster, right? Then I say, okay, so let's pretend that's the win for the business, right? That's the one for the business. They're closing faster. Money's turnover. But what's the one for you, Kwame?

Me.

And I'll ask it again and they'll go, well, as that. I'm telling you, that is the game changer in sales. Being able to connect to what's their personal win. Not just the win for the business or the organization or the team, what's the win for them?

This is great. And again, I think we can see the clear connection between this question applied in the business world, but also at home. I've been married for 10 years. I have a five year old. Sometimes I've been very surprised.

God bless you.

I feel like I need a trophy every year.

That's why you're glowing. Right? Exactly.

When he says every year I need one every month.

Right.

But yeah, this works at home too. Because the thing is we have different visions. And to the point, let's give the example of personal finance. I think you and I are the same way spenders. Right. I am very. I'm confident where we sit. Whitney has had a different upbringing and she had more money concerns and so she gets more nervous about money than I do. And as a result, the win for, for us is going to look very different. Hers is just simply security. Simply security. And mine is a little bit different. You know, but being clear on what that is allows us to connect and communicate at a much higher level.

Exactly. And it allows, when you're presenting solutions to show how you can have those experiences that you perhaps want to have. Right. In those moments that you want to create, but still having stability. Right. And so it's a win win, which I love. Right. And I think that's a great example of how can you apply that at home? Because even for me, when you think about staying on the money conversation, like this idea of being debt free. But even my husband, I had this conversation like I, to me, debt free is like clear, you don't owe any debt. Right. But to him, debt free was. I don't necessarily want to pay off my car because I like getting a new car every kind of, you know, three to four years. So for him, debt free was everything else. But we can still have a car now, but we're still debt free. Right. And so just, it's just amazing whether it's at home or in business, how we can make assumptions about what something means or what would be a win for somebody. And it's just taking, taking the time to ask those questions and be genuinely curious makes the world of difference.

I love it. So this is great. So let's say we have followed this path perfectly. So we started the conversation by setting ground rules effectively. We've asked really great questions to find what the win is for them from their perspective. And now we're at the point now with the third point, which is co creating the Solution. So what do we need to know about this final point?

Yeah, and you probably recognize something about me. I'm a big believer in simplicity. I think a lot of times people struggle with sales and you probably even see this with negotiation because we make it way too complicated. Right. So one of my favorite questions to co create solutions is, so, Kwame, what were you hoping I could help you with? Yes, that's it. Right. And it's amazing because what people will say is, well, what I was hoping you could help me with is if I could do this and if I had this in place. Okay. So if you had a sales process, think that would help you? Yeah. So why do you think that would help? Okay. And so if we were able to add mom. And so now we're walking through the solution and they're part of it. And here's the thing, you might be listening and saying, well, I'm not going to come up with like a brand new solution for each person that I'm working with. Right. Let's say that's your business. I have one product. We do it this way. That's fine. Break down the components of what you sell and still present it as different pieces and they get to be part of that conversation. So in my business. So, Kwame, so what do you think you need? Well, I think I need to sell process. Okay. And how are you going to be able to track that process? Oh, I didn't think about that. Yeah. Probably need a CRM. Well, yeah, let's put that in CRM. Have you had one before? No. Okay, so that's another piece that we need to talk about is how to roll out your. Right. And so now we're co creating it and it feels customized. Even if I have a set product that I sell or a set service that I sell, but they're part of the process and I'm able to connect it back to your particular pain points and to your particular win.

Yeah.

Like I'm telling you, this is gold. And then even being able to present something and saying, kwame, how would that help you? So, you know, out from the outside looking in, I think one of the things that we can add is a cold call script, let's say. And you go, yeah, well, how do you think that might help you? That's co creating. Right. So there's a number of different ways that you can co create. Whether it's letting them lead and you build or you suggest and then you ask them how that would help help.

That's brilliant. It's perfect. And now from the prospects perspective, how do they feel as a result of you approaching it this way versus being more prescriptive?

Well, they feel like they're part of the process. And here's the deal. When you've co created a solution, you're gonna buy it, right? You're not going to create it. If I present my solution, I said, kwame, this is what I think you need. You need 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. You may go, eh, 1 and 2 I'm good with, but I really don't think I need 3, 4 and 5. But when you've co created or you feel like you've co created the solution, you're not gonna say, I don't need the pieces I just told you that I need. So your close ratio goes up tremendously because you've been part of the solution. And I love it when I do this face to face. I actually, if they have a whiteboard in their office, I'll just write it out. I already know what they need. It's my presentation of it that is really different. And then other times I know what I think they need, but there's also other things that they think they need. That is important for me to know that because I may not include that in my solution. And they go, well, you hit all these points, but we miss this. And so they may rule you out if you miss that one piece that you didn't include because you didn't even think about. So I was telling you this works beautifully and it takes the pressure off of you. I think we've all been in those situations where we're doing a proposal and you're like, do they like it? Do they like it? I don't know. But you know this. You already know they liked it because they're part, they've been part of the process again, whether they let it and you built on it, or you present it and then ask them for feedback on how that would help them.

Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. And it takes pressure on, off of you actually, during the conversation too, because what you're doing is you're asking great questions and very simple questions. So what would be a win for you? Period? Silence. Right. And then what, what do we need to do to make this work? Whatever it is, the question is very, very short. And again, you're just giving them the space. And so when it comes to actually performing in the moment, you don't need to worry about saying anything complicated or anything like that. Very simple. And then it just does it. The process does itself, essentially, I tell.

You, sales is very simple. It is very, very simple. It's understanding how people think, it's uncovering what they want, and then it's also on the back end. I think another mistake that we make is that people sometimes have an idea of what it is they want and then we come in with what they need and they're like, yeah, but I want this. Sometimes you have to give people what they want, close the deal, and then you include what it is that they actually need. And if you battle that too much up front, you're gonna lose them because they're gonna feel like they're not being heard. And so, you know, sales is very simple. You do need a process, right? And these questions are part oftentimes of a larger process because we need to ask qualifying questions. We need to find what their pain points are. So these questions are part of a larger process. But I guarantee if you can nail these three points and setting up your conversations better, it's gonna be much easier to close. If you can find out what their win is for them, then they're gonna feel a lot more connected to you. And if they co create the solution, they're not going to say no to a solution that they've been part of developing. You're going to get their buy in.

Absolutely. And now before we go, if there is one thing that you would suggest that people do after listening to this episode to be more persuasive, close better deals, what would it be?

I would come up with a list of questions. Sales is really good. Salespeople are not the people that have the best personality or are the most extroverted or all of the things that we traditionally think of salespeople. The best salespeople are the people who ask the best questions. I would come up with a list of questions. What are the key questions that you need to ask in your sales process? And that puts again, takes the pressure off of you, makes you more consultative. And now you're gathering all of the information so that when you present your solution and you're co creating it, they're already bought into it. It. So get really good at asking questions and it makes the whole process 10 times easier.

I love it. And I know there are people out there saying, whoa, we need her in our lives. So how can people get in touch with you?

Yeah, so you can Visit my website, lariellipkins.com so obviously I do a bunch of consulting, but I also do a bunch of speaking. So if you say, hey, I have a sales meeting coming up or, you know, I would love to get you in front of my sales organization or working with our executive sales teams. Those are all things that I can do. So the best way to reach me is lareallipkins.com fantastic.

Lareal, thank you so much for joining us. We appreciate it. Congratulations.

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