How to Establish Credibility and Authority with Dawn Dickson

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another episode of Negotiate Anything. Thanks for spending time with us today. It's listeners like you in 181 different countries that have made Negotiate Anything the most popular negotiation and conflict resolution podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, professor, and the director of the American Negotiation Institute. Before we get started, I have two quick questions for you. Is negotiation a critical part of what you do? Do you need to resolve conflict and persuade at? If you answered yes to both of those questions, visit our website to learn more about our negotiation workshops. We've traveled the country working with professionals just like you, and we'd love to have the opportunity to work with you, too. Check out the link in the description to learn more. Dawn, thanks for joining us today.

Thank you so much for having me. We're long overdue, so I have to dig in.

Fantastic. Yeah, we're excited to have you. So how about we start off by telling the audience a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Well, Dawn Dixon, Lightworker, Serial entrepreneur. I actually have four companies, but I guess we're going to focus on popcom today. Popcom is an automated retail technology company, which basically that means that we work in kiosks and vending machines. Automated retail is anywhere where customers self serve. So like when they go and order from a kiosk at a restaurant or when they buy something out of a vending machine, anything where they're transacting on their own. And we build data analytics software to help those machines be smarter as well as we have some proprietary hardware that I invented just to really give the best use case of our software. So when you think about popcom, kind of I compare ourselves to like Microsoft because you know how Microsoft has Windows for everyone, but Microsoft has Windows for Microsoft devices.

That's fantastic. Yeah. And the company really has been taking the Internet by storm, really recently. Not just because the technology is incredible and it's a really unique idea, but also because of the way that you approached fundraising. Can you tell us a little bit about that too?

Yeah. So throughout my career, specifically with popcom, since we are a tech company, considering ourselves to be primarily a software company, throughout my career, I've raised money in many different ways. So it's important to understand, like when you go out to raise money as an entrepreneur, what is the best type of capital for you to raise? So literally for popcom, I've raised in the form of venture capital, accelerator, angel investors, pitch competitions, and more recently, we did A crowdfunding campaign and crowdfunding under the JOBS act, which allows you to raise money from the general public, both accredited and non accredited investors. And I decided to raise money in that way after already completing a round of funding through the traditional way, you know, institutional capital like venture capital and accredited angels. Just because I really wanted to be able to cast my net wider and also accept money from friends and family and people that may not make, you know, $300,000 a year, but are certainly capable and have the disposable income to invest in an early stage tech company.

Brilliant. Yeah, I think that's, that's really, really smart. But yeah, it was a brilliant idea and it worked out. And for the purposes of this episode, I there are going to be three persuasive techniques and skills that I wanted to focus on. And the first one was managing the internal negotiations with your team. The next one showing your worth and credibility and then wrapping up with social proof. And so starting off with internal negotiations. Before we started this call, you told me a bit about how those, not everybody was on board at the beginning when you suggested this idea.

I mean, my team was 100% on board because we are like my actual small, immediate team that works day to day on popcorn. But the people that were not aligned was this our venture capital investors, our institutional investors, people that didn't have a general understanding of this new instrument to raise capital, which is, you know, crowdfunding and a secure token offering because we tokenized our cap table and created a token as a security, which was very new and just became illegal in 2018. So they just weren't comfortable with it. You know, also it doesn't align with the traditional model of like venture capital. So like when we did this, we knew that this was going to put us outside of the sweet spot or outside of the model that they're comfortable with. And we were totally prepared, you know, to do that. But my team, because we're innovative, because we believe in having a team owned, operated and controlled company, we knew that the way to maintain control of our company and you know, continue to be, you know, continue to have equity primarily with the, with the team members, we knew that we couldn't really follow that VC model because that's not how that model was set up.

That is fascinating. So two points there. This is a great opportunity to talk about one of the most recent episodes we had with Lindsay Karras stencil when she was talking about the. One of the most important things to consider when you're raising money for your business is control. And that was at the forefront of your mind, it seems like when you were making this decision. And then the next thing is the fact that this method of raising money just became legal within the last, what, year and a half. It, there was really no blueprint. So that put another barrier for you in place when it came to persuading those institutional investors.

Yes, exactly. We had to think about it like, what is our long term strategy? You know, you, you have to always think in terms of the big picture. So we knew that if we did this, it would almost definitely take us out of the, you know, contention for VC capital in the future, more than likely. And if we did this and didn't succeed, we could, it could kill us. You know, it could put us out of business. But if we did this, I mean, if we did this and failed, rather if we did this and failed, it could put us out of business. But if we did this and succeeded, we could change the game. And I think thankfully it turned out the. On the succeeding side of it.

Right. With those initial conversations, what techniques or strategies did you use when you had those difficult conversations with the institutional investors?

You know, it was a matter of like them just basically saying, if you do this, we're not going to support you. And I said, okay, well the easy solution is give me some more money so I don't have to do. That's the fastest and easiest solution.

Right?

And they were like, well, no, you know, we're not prepared to do follow on. I said, well then you really don't have a say so. And that was really how it went. I mean, you know, we had to restructure our entire cap table as a part of this because initially we structured our company, our first round in the form of convertible notes and safe, which is a def, is like a deferred equity model where you have a period of time to validate and prove the value of the company and then they convert their note either to debt or equity based on a discount on the future valuation that you are supposed to prove out. But they're holding these notes and I'm like, well, you're holding these notes, you're holding discounts. I have to hold to the side for you. If you're not going to help me grow my business and you're not going to be a good partner, then I want my discount back. I want my. You don't get a discount. So that took months of going back and forth and very hard negotiations and me not budging into the point where it got. It got to a place where I was like, listen, I'm not doing the down round. Which a down round is like raising money at less than what the company is worth to give someone else the upside. I'm not doing the down round. It's not for the best interest of the team or the business at all. So. And I'm not going to dilute myself down to where at the, at the seed stage, I am very, very low minority owner. So I'll just quit. I mean, that's literally what I said. And you know that I'm like, so I could quit and we could just everybody lose or you could, you know, renegotiate these terms so that you can let me work and create value. And that was a risky thing to say. But I said, you know, if I am in a position where I feel like I'm an employee and I'm working for investors and not working for myself, I'm no longer motivated because I'm entrepreneur. I'm not motivated if I don't own my company. So I'm like, I could do something else, even though I love my business and I didn't want that, but I'm also not going to be a slave because that's why I quit working. Why would I put a situation the opposite of, like, what I'm doing? So it worked out, but it took months and it just took a lot of grit and it took me standing firm and me being willing with my team. It wasn't just me, because keep in mind, it's not just me, other people. So I said to them, like, here's the pros and cons. We could do this down round. This is going to happen. I don't want to do this, but I'm not going to put your livelihood and everything you on the line. So are you in alignment with me to stand firm and not do this? And they were like, yeah, let's just go for it. And so, you know, we played hardball and we won.

This is brilliant. And the thing is, when it comes to the persistence that you were able to demonstrate in this difficult negotiation that lasted for a really long time, most people don't really have the stomach for that. Because let's say you're in procurement, for example, if you're negotiating for your company, if you don't get a deal, then there are other deals to be had. But in your situation, it's not only your livelihood, but also the livelihood of people on your team. Because you said, if we, if we're not able to come to a deal, then I'm just going to stop working. And so that takes a lot of bravery. And so for you, how were you able to manage that, like the emotional side and stay strong during those tough negotiations? Does your company invest in professional development training? If you believe that your team would benefit from a negotiation workshop, all you need to do is go to our website, fill out the workshop request form, and then we'll set up a time to chat. These workshops are completely customizable, and we've done them all around the country. Negotiation and conflict resolution skills are beneficial across all professions, but they're especially useful in procurement, purchasing, sales, sourcing, and contract management. Our calendar is filling up quickly, and we even have some workshops scheduled for next year if you think you might want one. I'd suggest reaching out soon so you don't miss out. Check out the link in the description to learn more and we will be right back after this.

I just know my. My worth and I know the value of what we're building. I know the value of our intellectual property, and I know it works. So it's like I just was like, you know, I'm gonna just put all of my, like, bet on myself and bet on the team, and I know that we're not gonna let us down. And just to keep me on an even, I mean, like I said, I've been entrepreneur now 19 years, and there's extreme highs and there's extreme low. And so I've kind of trained myself just do like, my spirituality, you know, like meditation and just working on myself as a, as a human being to not get too excited and not get too upset. So nothing really affects me either way. Like, I'm happy about the win and, you know, I'm disappointed about the losses in the lesson. Nothing devastates me and nothing gets me super excited because it's just like, okay, okay, when let's celebrate it, let's keep it moving, or, okay, didn't. This didn't work out was, was the, you know, solution. And so just being even and balanced and knowing that it's just extreme, like going through the extremities for years, you just kind of just roll with it. So I feel like the worst that can happen has already happened to me in business. I mean, I've never, like, shut down or like, I've never had a business fail. I mean, that could be pretty devastating. That's never happened because I'm not willing to let it fail. Like, you fail when you give up. And I don't give up.

I love that point. I really do. And really for me, the simple way of thinking about confidence is just a general feeling of okayness regardless of the outcome. Just like you said, not getting too high, not getting too low. Because like you said, you're not going to quit. And so no matter what the outcome is, you're going to find a way.

Exactly. And every day, every second, I do my best. And if that's all I can do, is all I can do. Sometimes my best might not even cut it, but I still did my best.

Exactly. Oh man, I love that. I love that. Well, perfect. Let's move on to the next point. Showing your worth and credibility. Because for you, you know that clearly it's very clear for you now. How were you able to convince the people around you, the people on your team, the venture capitalists, how are you able to show your worth and credibility in this brand new space?

I mean, it took years before I had a team. This company started in 2012, this is 2019. This company started 2012 and nobody believed in it. I was a team of one for five years just figuring it out, studying, learning, becoming a subject matter expert, knowing everything about the industry, about the trends, about what's working all over the world and then really crafting the vision and showing that it actually can happen and demonstrating like it's happening in other countries. And we have opportunity to be on the forefront of, of vending in the United States, automated retail, United States, but then also be the market maker in data analytics in the space because it doesn't exist. It's like whoever came up with, well obviously we know was Google, but like before Google Analytics existed, somebody had to think of Google Analytics because it's needed to figure out web traffic and conversion rate and understand customer behavior on E Commerce and on website. Somebody had a problem, somebody, somebody was like, I have a website and I want to know what's going on. And then Google or whoever built that technology brought it to the market and the same exact thing as what we, what we're doing here. But I had to spend time in the, in the industry. You know, I put machines out in the Atlanta airport, I put machines out and club live in Miami and several other things, places around the United States. I validated that like people will use vending machines. I did all the work by myself, all of it. And then by the time I went to a team and went to a investor, I had validated it completely. I had a whole proof of concept, I had a whole, you know, I've definitely Validated, like my market. I definitely have proved like people wanted it. I had customers signed up that just said, okay, if you build this, I'll buy it. I did all of that and then I said, okay, you guys, I've done everything. Now let's really take this to the next level. But I didn't have anybody in the beginning.

Wow. Wow. This is, this is incredible. Because you know what's interesting? And this is just one entrepreneur to another. It's funny because from the outside looking in, people would say, okay, dawn just got onto my radar in the, in the past year or six months. And it just seems like she burst onto the scenes. But the reality is bursting takes a long time. You've been at this for a while, but what you've been doing is you're taking your time, working hard, but most importantly, doing your homework, Doing your homework, gathering data, validating your ideas. And so when you're coming to people, you're not just coming and saying, hey, I hope you invest with me, I hope you believe in me. Just take this leap of faith. What you're doing is you're saying, hey, I have proof. And you've taken the time to gather those resources to make it more likely for people to get on board.

Yeah, exactly. Because this is people's life. You can't say, you know, I have an idea. I don't know if it's going to work or not. I don't know if anybody going to buy it, but will you like, stop whatever you're doing and work with me? No. I knew to get the best people, this had to really be, you know, a very well thought out, well researched thing and have a market ready for them. And you know, it took me years. And of course I was, I have another business. So obviously I wasn't making any money at all from Popcom, which is called Solutions Vending. That's our legal name, that's what we started with. But Popcom is our trademark and our new name for, you know, our tech and things. But I have flat out of heels. And so the whole time I'm building, you know, Popcom on the side, really trying to figure this out. I'm working full time and generating money to support myself by selling shoes with flat out and then also through my consulting company. So it's like I had several irons in the fire. And that's why it's so important as an entrepreneur to diversify, you know, and have multiple things going on. Some people will say what they told me many times when I, when I first went to get money from investors. They were like, we don't want you working on more than one thing at once. And I said, no, I'm not going to do that. Because everybody knows successful entrepreneurs have multiple businesses and multiple streams of income. If you research entrepreneurs and you see the ones that I've. The ones we look at that are the most successful, they have many things. So why would you say that? Like, why would you tell me I only can work on one thing at a time? If not just to protect your personal interests, but not caring about my. My interest because I have a daughter to support. So it's like, on one hand, you want me to just focus on this business. You don't want me to really take a salary that I can support myself from, but you don't want me to do nothing else. So. So you want me to struggle and be stressed out. I can't be effective as a CEO of this business if I'm struggling. I can't pay my rent.

Right. You know, this again, just shows another difficult conversation that was a negotiation that a lot of people would have. Would have just missed. Because a lot of times, because I've heard this a lot of times too, where somebody says, okay, I'm going to come on, and I have this new business here. Are you interested in investing? And the investor says, you need to quit your job and make this your only thing. And the. And the entrepreneur says, okay, boss, that's. That's exactly what I'm going to do. People don't recognize that that too is negotiable. And what you've done a great job of doing as you build this company is recognizing these negotiable points. And when something doesn't work for you, you're taking the time to stand up for yourself and have those conversations and negotiate for what you're worth and make it work.

I mean, the thing is like, standing firm but also being able to be relatable. So I don't just say like, no, I'm not going to just do that. I'll be like, no, because I have a team to help support this. This is how I support my livelihood. This is how I'll be able to pay my bills so I don't have to use your investment money to pay my salary. Like, it all makes sense. So in negotiations, it has to. It has to always feel like a mutually beneficial situation or even that they have the upside, even if they don't really making them feel like they have the upside. And, you know, the upside is always for, like, get a return on your investment as an investor or as a team member to have a rewarding, fulfilling place to work where you're vested and you can make money and earn equity and have the life that you want for yourself. And that's what I tell my team is like, what do you want to do with your life? What are your dreams and goals? How can I help you with your dreams? Popcorn is my dream. Thank you for helping me with my dream. What can I do for you during the course of you helping me with my dream? That's going to help you with your dream. What's going to align? And so it works out because the team like everything that they do. They want to be doing it, and it's helping them in the. In the long run as well. So, like, that's always the case with negotiation and then just standing firm and don't budge, you know, And I don't even. Even when investors give term sheets, like, everything is negotiable and entrepreneurs don't realize that. Especially, like when you're raising money from investors. It's something I had to learn as well. You know, they're like, yes, I want to invest. And the first time I had an investor say yes, and not angel investors, but like a vc, and I'm like, okay, they said, yes. Now what do I do? Do I wait for them to give me a term sheet? Like, what do I do? And I just waited to, you know, and said, okay, well, let me. Let me see what they say they're going to give me for what? And that was the wrong approach. Because really, what I learned later, and that's what I do now is I always have my own term sheet. So they're like, okay, yes, I want to invest. And I said, okay, here are the terms. We can negotiate this, but they're on my document. Because whoever writes the docs, it's written to their advantage. That's just business. Like, the state is important, you know, like, so we're in state of Ohio. We're Delaware company, But we're in state of Ohio. So, like, if something happens, we want to be in court here we're writing on our docs. So it's just important to have, like, everything. You have all of your own paperwork, and then you can negotiate. So I give them the paperwork, and then we go from there. Waiting for them to give docs, that's like telling them they value. They tell you what your company is worth, what they're going to, what you're going to, what they're going to give you. And a lot of entrepreneurs are so happy just to have somebody say yes. They really ready to sign their life away just to get some money and not realizing like you literally are signing your life away or your business away by letting someone else control the terms in the negotiation. So like I always leave all the situations, but I always come with my supporting facts and information. It's like, you can't beat me in this because I know this. And it's just important to know like everything that you are talking about inside and out. And I seldomly don't have get things go to go my way.

That's brilliant. And I think that's, that's a critical point because for, of course, as a lawyer, controlling drafting is critical. That's how you maintain control of the negotiation. Because it's almost like if you give up that ability to draft the documents and you start playing with their documents, then you're playing from behind, number one. And essentially you're, you're ceding home court advantage. And I love that you are able to take that control from the very beginning because you realize that down the road, if you, if you decide to kind of be a little bit more passive in those initial stages, then they're going to take control and then you're going to be playing from behind.

Definitely. And it takes more time, you know, so it's like, it's a lot easier to get it done quicker when we're like, here's the docs. You look it over, have ask any questions. Because, you know, a lot of times people, people don't read every single word of contracts. I do, but a lot of people don't. And it's so small things you don't read that are the most important. And so I want to make sure that every single thing is like in our favor. And when there are docs, we know it definitely.

No, that makes a lot of sense. Makes a lot of sense. And now since we're coming up on time, I want to make sure we move on to that last point of social proof. Because from the outside looking in, seeing how you've been able to constantly let people know about what you're doing and generate that momentum, it seems as though that's been a critical point of your success. And so when it comes to your messaging, what kind of techniques have you been using to demonstrate just the popularity behind the company?

So when you say like techniques, are you speaking of specific, what, like outlets or platforms, are you just talking from a, like, strategic standpoint?

Great point. Great point. Not specific platforms, but just strategically. Like, what was your mindset going into it?

My mindset is grassroots. So I'm a marketer. Like, that is my strength, you know, like, that's what I've been doing my entire career is in marketing. And when I started out, there was no such thing as social media. There was no such thing as all these tools that exist today. So, like, my first business, we had over 100,000 hits a month to our website, and this was grassroots. Who's getting out and telling people about it in their face? And what I realized now more than ever is like, the value of being personal with someone and being approachable and being present when you can easily hide behind a digital platform. So my approach was always being transparent, being relatable, being grassroots. So we. I would travel around and meet people in person, host, you know, do events, like, of course, do podcasts, do everything where I'm not. It's not staged, right? Like, this conversation is organic and authentic. It's not a script here, say something and have a script. But it's like, I want you to see me for who I am and real me and see if you buy into that. So it's always very grassroots. There's a book by Terry Williams called A Personal Touch, and it's written like in the, I don't know, like the early 2000s, if not even the 90s. And it's super relevant still because it talks about the value of things like handwritten notes and, you know, meeting people in person and a phone call and those type of things is what I. What I did. And I met with people and it was the whole strategy around, like, being, showing them. Like, if you invest in popcom, you're not just investing in the ticker, like on, you know, the stock exchange or on Robinhood or whatever. You're investing in a real person that you have access to. You're investing in a journey, you're investing in a team. And, you know, you can be a part of this and feel like you are a part of making something happen and growing something and not just putting money in. And you never hear from these people again. And after we raised the money, I went around to five cities in five states and had meet and greets with our investors and really just let them talk to me in person and ask me whatever they want to ask me. We also have a Facebook group, and I engage with them and answer their questions. And then I do AMA sessions, which is ask me anything on Instagram and Twitter. And I'm Just like, hey, ask me anything. And then I record it and I post it on YouTube for people to watch it. So it's just. That's always been the approach is being my real self and, you know, not putting on any type of show or staging anything, telling people the good things and the bad things, and they really aligned with that.

This is fantastic. And see, for me now, I'm taking notes just as a fellow entrepreneur, but I think the just persuasively, it makes a lot of sense, because one. One thing is that we need to really pay attention to is your persistence, because you've been at this for a long time, and a lot of times with entrepreneurship, it's a war of attrition. Who's just. Who's tough enough to survive long enough. Right. And you were. And so even though it was taking a few years to get things going, you were constantly pushing your message forward and letting people know what it is that you're doing. And so when people see that, they see you and you're being authentic, they start to like you more. They call it the mere exposure effect in psychology. So it's kind of like a song. Like, the first time you hear a song, it's like, oh, that's a solid song. And then you hear it again, and then maybe by the 10th time, it's like, hey, that's my jam. I love that song. Right? And so that's how it's been with you, because you've constantly been communicating with people authentically and they're starting to like you. And the messaging behind not just, hey, invest in this platform, you've really been saying, come join our team. And I think that's a critical distinction as well, because now once people come in, it's more like joining a movement more than just investing money in a business.

Yeah, you hit it spot on. It certainly is a movement. And not just a movement around, like me in popcorn, but a movement around, like, wealth creation, private equity, getting opportunities for people who previously did not have an opportunity to invest in a company at this stage, to feel a part of something, and just the excitement around getting in early and something that we never really experienced as a community is really amazing. And so a lot of people are like, you know, of course everybody wants to return, and I definitely plan on giving them a return, but a lot of them are like, I don't even care about the money. I just want to be a part of this. I just want to see this work. Like, I'm excited to get an opportunity to get in People thank me every day. Thanks for the opportunity. And I'm like, well, no, thank you. So it really is mutually beneficial value. It's not a handout, it's not a donation. It's like you giving me money. I'll make that money work, and I make it work for you, and you giving me money to help my vision work. And we're helping each other. And it's really a true demonstration of group economics at its finest. And that's really what I believe in. And that's the foundation of, like, everything that I do is overall community empowerment and just wealth creation for my community.

Oh, yeah, this is brilliant. And when you. When you think about your approach, it's not just the rational persuasion or the economic persuasion, like you said, like, okay, this is just all about making money, but the inspirational persuasion. And when you think about inspirational leaders, it's not just what's in it for you or what's in it for me. It's about values. It's about joint principles that are respected by everybody. And so when you start talking about the grassroots organizing and the community empowerment, that's something that people want to get in and see succeed just in general without any monetary return. So the persuasive techniques that you've galvanized in order to be successful are just incredibly powerful. And it really speaks to your. Your experience as an entrepreneur and your experience as a. As a master marketer, too.

Thank you so much. But at the same time, it's like, it's really real. It's really authentic. It's really. It's genuine. It's not made up. And so I know that, you know, people know that because I've been this person for 19 years. And many of the people that invested in Popcom knew me back then and supported my very first venture. And really, they've supported everything that I've done. They bought flat outs. You know, they were on my website in the early 2000s. They've heard me speak. They, you know, they've consulted with me. They've. So it's. It's not an overnight thing like you mentioned in the very beginning of this. People think I came out of nowhere. You know, there's a quote that says it takes 10 years to be overnight success. I'm pushing 20 right now. So everything that I have and that I'm doing, I have certainly earned. There was nothing handed to me. And it's, you know, over the course of my career now I'm reaping the benefits from being consistent and being, you know, having integrity and doing the work. And then this is the story of what happens when you do the work.

Exactly. Oh man, I love this. I could talk about this forever, but for the sake of the listeners time, I'm going to bring this to an end. But what I want you to do before we go, just again, remind the listeners who you are, what you do and how they can get in touch with you and maybe even join the movement.

Yeah, definitely. Again, Dawn Dixon. You can find me on all the platforms under Dawn Dixon. D I C K S O N. I have a really great blog or medium where I talk about everything. I'm also on LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and then we are getting ready to raise another round. So you can in fact join the movement. In the next 60 days we'll be announcing that and you can get on our list to be notified by going to startengine.com popcom that's P O P C O m so consider it like pop up shop and commerce. So pop. And you can just, you know, be a part of it. And we have an amazing community. We have over 2200 investors right now. Some of them are very, very active. About 350 of them are very highly engaged on our private Facebook group for investors. And you know, it is certainly a movement and I would love to have more people not just investing, of course, in popcorn, but just investing in general because that is the way that you create generational wealth.

Fantastic, Don, thank you again and listeners, I will put all of those links in the description below. Don, thanks again.

Thanks for having me.

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