How to Get Paid to Speak with Jess Ekstrom

Hello, my friends, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. This show is produced by the American Negotiation Institute and with over 5 million downloads and listeners in over 180 countries, listeners just like you have made this the number one negotiation podcast in the world. Hi, my name is Kwame Christian and I am the founder and CEO of the American Negotiation Institute here at A&I. We believe that the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And we are passionate, passionate about providing you with the best content that will help you to make your difficult conversations easier, both at work and at home. Lastly, I want to remind you that we offer consulting and conduct trainings both virtually and in person all around the world. Our focus is in three main areas. First, negotiation and conflict resolution. Second, leadership. And lastly, diversity, equity, and inclusion. Check the link in the description below to learn more about how we could work with you and your team. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview.

So I'll start off by saying I am a pretty terrible negotiator, and I'm sure you've heard that so many times. People that, like, land in your orbit, like, you know, I'll be talking about, this is why I don't negotiate any of my own speaking gigs anymore. But when I did, I would start off by saying, like, oh, you know, I usually do five, but like, just let me know what you can do and if you can, if you can't reach it, we'll find a way. I was literally, like negotiating against myself before I even got started. So your first tip to become a better negotiator is just to negotiate. So really, like, what do you, what do you even mean by that?

Yeah, that's where most people fail. They just simply don't do it. They sit in this state of perpetual fear and then the opportunity passes and then they say, well, I'll do it next time. And then the same thing happens, you know. And when I think about negotiation, a lot of times we're giving recipes to people who are afraid to get in the kitchen. It doesn't matter if we are just telling you what to do, but the reality is if you're too afraid to do it, you're not going to do it regardless. Right? So I think before, like, before we start to say, hey, just negotiate, I think everybody listening has to do a little bit of introspection to see what it is that's preventing them from actually doing that.

And do you find there's like a common thing that people, you and I, we Had a heart to heart backstage. And, you know, talking about, like, women especially sometimes we can feel like, oh, if I'm negotiating, then I'm being too assertive or I'm being difficult, you know, because I'm not just grace, like graciously accepting any amount. So what are some of, like, the psychology behind like, limiting people, you know, in negotiating?

So let's talk about it from a, like a gender dynamic position first. And so I'm going to cite my sources. This is me parroting wise women, not Kwame mansplaining. Okay.

Love it.

Of things so Women Don't Ask, which is a great book by Linda Babcock and Sara Lashever. Also Confidence Code by Katty K. And Claire Shipman. Two of my best, my favorite books on the topic of gender dynamics in negotiation. And so one thing is that women are often socialized to focus so heavily on the relationship that it's tough for them to take the time to focus on themselves. And so it's easier for them to advocate for other people because of that team cohesion, socialization. But then when it comes to advocating for themselves, it's tough because they, they're not, they're, they haven't been pushed to do that very often. And that's the first thing. And they're often so focused on the relationship that they're saying, hey, this person might not like me anymore if I push too hard. So those are the two things that hold women back in particular in, in these difficult conversations.

Yeah, I could totally see that. It's like relationship first. And then one of the things I had said to you was the thing that kind of moved me beyond this was it's kind of like when you're negotiating. For me, it was, how can I salvage the relationship in the moment? Not how I'm going to feel when I actually have to do that task for that amount of money. And so I would think to myself, like, oh, yeah, I could easily cue the cheering, do the high fives by just saying yes. But then three months from now, I'm going to have to stop what I'm doing, get on a plane for an amount that doesn't really feel right for me.

Yeah, exactly. And that's one of the things when it comes to people pleasing in general. And for me, I am a recovering people pleaser. I'm very open about that. And we will say yes in the moment to protect the relationship. But what we're doing is we're kicking the can down the road because they are feeling good about the relationship. But you're feeling bad about the relationship, so the relationship still ends up in a bad place because you were unwilling to articulate what you wanted and needed in that situation. And so one simple trick that you can do to kind of hack that psychology is to imagine yourself as somebody else. So, for instance, Jess, in that situation, you might say, oh, well, I might want to say yes to make this person feel good. But what if you were your own best friend? You would swoop in and say, jess, no, absolutely. You are worth more than that. You are worth more. Right. Sometimes when you kind of step outside of yourself and you think of yourself as another person, it makes it easier for you to advocate for yourself.

Oh, my gosh, that is spot on. Because, you know, the funny part is, is that Michelle, who's my manager that books my speaking engagements now, she has no problem unemotionally saying, oh, no, she won't do that for that rate, or she doesn't speak for free, or if you want another day of her time, this is her amount. And people love, like, they are like, Michelle is so great. We, you know, I.

They'll.

They'll even call her after the gig to keep up. And so I'm like, clearly negotiating does not damage relationships because she does it so well. So that's kind of like this false belief that I have to get out of my head that negotiating damages relationships. I find that sometimes when I'm on the other end, if I'm booking a speaker for an event or whatever and they don't negotiate with me, I'm like, what? You know, why did they say yes so quickly? So it is such. So interesting, the psychology behind it.

Absolutely. Yeah. When you think about perceived value, the things you have to work harder for, the things you value the most. And so you think about relationships. That's why people value people who play the game of hard to get. It's like, oh, you know, you want to go on a date with me? Yes. It's like, well, that was shockingly easy. Yeah. Missing. Right.

I'm still playing hard to get three years into my marriage. So, so far, so good. But so the next thing that you say to be a better negotiator is kind of feels counterintuitive. It's actually to say less, ask more questions and say less. So what do you mean by that?

Yeah, so I know I'm negotiating well, where when the person is speaking way more than me. So the breakdown I like is 70, 30. So I'm only speaking 30% of the time. They're speaking 70% of the time, that gives me what I need. I need information. That's what I need. You know, and then the other thing is you're less likely to make a mistake when you're saying fewer things. And so that, that makes it a lot easier to negotiate. And so one of the best things you can do to prepare is I have these free guides on our website. If you go to our website americannegotiationinstitute.com guide, you can get access to all of our free guides, like 15 plus guides. And it walks you through how prepare. And part of that preparation is asking open ended questions, listing the questions that you're going to ask. And you want to ask open ended questions because it will, it would lead to a narrative response. And in my opinion, the best open ended question that you could ask in any negotiation is this. What flexibility do you have? That's it. So simple. But it assumes that there is flexibility. That's the first part. And then the second part is that in order to answer it, they have to, they have to spill the beans, right? Because for me as a negotiator, if they say that's really tough for us to do, I said that's not a no. So I'm going to get that.

I love that. What flexibility do you have? And then stop talking. That is where clearly hosting my own podcast, I like to talk, but that is where I have the tough time. It's like asking the question and then shift. Shutting the hell up and like letting, letting them say it. Because you're right, sometimes you'll just get going and then you're like, well, I actually did this one for free one time. And you're like, shit, I just told them that I spoke for free at this event.

And you do not want to be negotiating up from $0. That's a tough place to be, you know, because then the question that they'll ask you is, well, what's the difference between our organization and them? Why can't you do it for us for free? Right? And now you're on the defensive, responding to them. So you always want to keep the ball in their court, asking the questions and then dealing with that awkwardness. Because I'm not going to act like sitting in silence is pleasurable. It's very tense. And that tension is, is working. It's working. So one of the tricks that I use is I start to count whenever there's an awkward silence. I sit there and I count. And it helps me to stay focused on something other than my Tension. And I remember I was mediating a case one time, and I count up to 43 seconds.

No way.

Yeah.

I'm literally. My palms are sweating just thinking about that.

It was awful. But it was the critical, the most critical part of the. Of the conversation, and it really turned the whole mediation. But I just had to sit there in that awkwardness, look at the person and let them process. And it was a game changer.

I just had a thought, like, you know anyone, you know, you and I met through a speaking engagement. Anyone that is, like, booking you to speak? Are they, like, you know, just even talking about, like, booking a negotiator to speak? Negotiating their rate?

Sure.

They're, like, outmatched again.

It goes to perception, too, because they say, they even say it sometimes. They're like, I'm a little bit intimidated negotiating with a negotiator. It's funny because it's like they see it coming and they anticipate he's going to negotiate my price up. So it feels a lot easier. When your reputation does some of the work for you, does your company invest in professional development training? If you believe that your team would benefit from a negotiation workshop, all you need to do is go to our website, fill out the workshop request form, and then we'll set up a time to chat. These workshops are completely customizable, and we've done them all around the country. Negotiation and conflict resolution skills are beneficial across all professions, but they're especially useful in procurement, purchasing, sales, sourcing, and contract management. Our calendar is filling up quickly, and we even have some workshops scheduled for next year if you think you might want one. I'd suggest reaching out soon so you don't miss out. Check out the link in the description to learn more. And now back to the show.

The third thing that you say, which, again, this is something that I need to take notes on to be a better negotiator. So first, we have, like, just negotiate. Second, we just have ask more questions, say less. And the third is be willing to walk away. I remember I heard a quote. I can't remember what exactly it was, but it was like, he who cares less, wins more. Is that kind of what you're talking about here?

Yeah. Yeah. And it's so, so, so powerful. In any relationship, the person who needs the relationship less has more, has more leverage in that relationship. You know, romantic relationship, business relationship, that's it. Because if the other person needs the relationship more, they're willing to give up a lot more in order to get what they need. But If I don't need it, then I'm not willing to give up very much because I can live without it. Right. And again, that goes to perceived value as well. And so let me tell you a story. When I was getting started in my speaking years ago, of course I wanted to do a lot of free things so I could take pictures and get testimonials and start getting that momentum. So what I started doing then, when I started to turn the corner and say, all right, now it's time to get paid stuff that introduced a tough, the tough situation because now I need to say no. And so I remember one time I was having a conversation with somebody to say, oh yeah, we don't have a budget. And I had to give that painful, no, no, sorry, I can't do it. Okay. Then six months later they come back and they say, hey, we have a budget now and the budget is X thousands of dollars. I'm like, wow, wow. So what we're doing here is we're setting our market price. The market will adjust to whatever the lowest price is that you're willing to do. And remember, we get a lot of our business from referrals. And so if you're doing a lot of these low dollar amounts, then what's going to happen is that's what the market is going to start giving you. And so you have to walk away. But there's an art to walking away. So what you do is you say, listen, based on how the deal is right now, this isn't something that I can do, but if something changes on your end, let me know and we could work something out. And if something changes on my end, I'll do the same. So it gives you an opportunity to say, hey, it is not a no forever because things might change, circumstances might change, and it gives them an opportunity to come back to you if those circumstances change and you've given them that opportunity to come back with their dignity because they don't look silly coming back. You've actually invited them to come back.

Interesting. Like first setting your market value, mind blown. Because it is true. It's like to get woo woo. I mean, it's a little bit of like manifesting, you know, like what you're putting out there is what's going to come your way. And I remember like I was kind of in this crossroads with speaking and I really wanted to change, like raise my rates, but I had had this bureau a while ago that like put in my head that like, you know, no one will pay for me at this Rate. And so I was really nervous about raising them and thinking that all the gigs would just go away. And someone told me, what if you just tried it for six months, that you did not accept any gig, $1amount, this rate that you want, and just see what happened. And so there were opportunities where I was like, thanks, but no thanks. You know, I'm staying here. And they're like, oh, well, crazy that you say that because we just got a sponsor and we can, like, and do that now. And I'm like, what? I mean, there was only maybe a handful that when I say I lost, I felt like I didn't even really lose because I was able to refer those gigs to other speakers that I love that I want doing more gigs. And so it was really a lesson for me to, like, say what you want, and then you're not being difficult by saying that I'm not going to do it for anything less than that.

Absolutely, yeah. And again, for the listeners out there saying, man, this sounds scary. Yeah, it is scary. And I don't have any kind of magic technique to get over that. You kind of have to work through it. And again, that's why my book is called Finding Confidence in Conflict, because you have to get that confidence, and there's a process to gain it, but it's just not easy to do. But once you start to flex that muscle over and over and over again, it becomes easier. And like you said, Jess, the market starts to respond, and you start to get those gigs at that specific dollar value that you're wanting, but you just have to hold firm.

So parting words of advice for, like, a new speaker or someone that is starting to charge for their services that is, like, literally super scared. Like, I am sometimes to say, no, that won't work for me. Or, like, my rate is this. Or even just feeling good about setting a value on yourself.

Yes. So here's what it is. All right? First of all, we have to. We will protect the things that we value, right? And so we have to start to value ourselves a little bit more. And sometimes it's hard for us because of imposter syndrome, to truly appreciate the value that we can bring. So we should talk to our friends, our family, the people who are seeing us in a professional capacity, and ask them what they think our rate is. We might be surprised. They might see us as more valuable than we see ourselves. That's one thing that'll help you to get a little bit more confident going into these conversations. The next thing is don't overthink this because I know, I know these people listening to the podcast. I'm like, you, okay? I say, oh, that's a really good idea. Let me spend like six years thinking about this and how I'm going to implement it in my life. Nike says it best. Just do it. So next time, this is a challenge. The next time you have an opportunity to negotiate, I want you to negotiate. All right? Ask some questions. What flexibility do you have? Stay quiet and see what happens.

I love it. I feel like I'm gonna the next thing that comes in my inbox. They should be scared. Be like, I am armed and ready. So tell us a little bit more about where they can find you and some of the guides that you were referring to as well.

Yes. So make sure you check out those guides. That's the best way to increase your confidence by preparing and practicing. So americannegotiationinstitute.com guide. Also, if you're interested in podcasts, which I assume you are because you are listening to a podcast, we have Negotiate Anything. And we are a great podcast because we have experts like Jess coming on the show to talk about how to negotiate anything. Right. So in the business world, personal life, all those types of things. So that's a five day a week show. Make sure to check that out. And if you're interested in negotiation training or conflict resolution or coaching, check out the American negotiationinstitute.com awesome.

And I'll put all of those links on our website as well. But Kwame, thank you so much. I'm so glad that we met backstage and for like, if I had just read your bio, I would have thought you were just like a hard ass and like, but you're really to do what you do and also just be a nice, likable guy. Like, kudos to you.

Thank you. I appreciate that. Congratulations. You've just joined an elite club by listening to a full episode. You're now officially on the Negotiate Anything team. So welcome aboard. What most team members do is they subscribe to the podcast because that allows them to automatically get the latest episodes of the show. The best things in life lie on the other side of difficult conversations. Keep learning. Keep, keep practicing and keep getting better. Your relationships will improve, your career will soar, and you'll have the confidence you need to get the most out of these crucial conversations. Again, thank you for joining the team. We're excited to have you and I will see you in the next episode. I'll catch you later.