How to Have Better Meetings: Help Others Contribute and Manage Emotions with Marie Keister

Hello, my friends, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. Negotiate Anything is produced by the American Negotiation Institute and with over 3 million downloads and listeners in over 180 countries, listeners just like you have made it the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm Kwame Christian and I'm the director of the American Negotiation Institute. We're growing and I want to introduce you to our new team members and new trainers. This will give you new and diverse perspectives on negotiation and conflict resolution. And that's why Shane Martin, our head of sales and partnerships, is going to serve as co host of the show from time to time. We're excited to continue to provide you with the best content that will help to make your difficult conversations easier, both at work and at home. Lastly, our team conducts negotiation and conflict resolution trainings in the United States and abroad. Our trainings will give you the practical skills you need to resolve conflict and negotiate, lead and persuade with confidence. Click the link in the description below to learn more about how we can make your difficult conversations easier. Marie, thanks for joining us today.

Hello, how are you today?

Doing great. Thanks for joining us. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Well, thank you. I'm Marie Silver Keister and I'm accredited public relations professional. And. And I own a company by the name of Murphy Epson, and we specialize in public relations. But our niche is really helping communities and public sector agencies make improvements to their communities. And so our role is to facilitate those conversations. That sometimes can be very difficult because we're introducing change, even though it may be for the greater good.

I love that. And I know part of what you do includes facilitation, right? So can you tell us about what that looks like in your role and just in general what facilitation is?

So to be effective, what we are talking about is making sure that everyone has an opportunity to contribute. And when we introduce a community improvement, which may be a new shared use path, or maybe, maybe it's a new road, or maybe it is a new development in your community, the public's instant reaction could be fear, it could be anger. And so they may come to that initial meeting that we've planned to share the concept feeling very passionate. And so it's my role to make sure that we can explain what the proposal is, but leave a lot of room for the public to give input so they can shape what ultimately is built or so on. And so I help plan the meeting so that it's a Very constructive conversation. But then I also make sure that as we run the meeting, we're giving everyone an opportunity to be heard and we're not getting defensive in response to their anger or passion.

Yes. No, this is great. And I think it'll be good for folks to get a better understanding, just in general, how these facilitations can manifest themselves, not just in your specific role, but also in general, too. Because somebody listening might say, well, I'm not doing public projects like this, so I guess let me go to another podcast. Wait, if you go to another podcast, go to Ask With Confidence or our Spanish language podcast. But don't leave, because there are opportunities to use these same facilitation skills just day to day as a leader in your organization. So before we get deeper into, like, the nuts and bolts of it, can you talk about some potential other avenues where somebody could use facilitation within their everyday job?

So when we talk about how to use facilitation skills in everyday practice. So let's say you're in a meeting and you walk in and you feel tension, or maybe you introduce an idea and somebody has a negative reaction. The same tips apply the same principles as your compassionate curiosity. You listen, you probe. You don't be so worried about conveying your idea that you stop for a minute and say, well, let's talk about. What are you concerned about? I'm sensing that there may be some resistance. Can you explain why? Being curious and respectful, sometimes you'll get anger back for whatever reason. And instead of dismissing that or just having this visceral reaction and then escalating, it's better to ignore the negativity and focus on the kernel of truth. Whatever they've said, there's always something in there that once you get rid of the smoke and mirrors of, you know, blah, blah, blah. I'm so angry. Well, let's talk about what you're angry about. Let's get to that and let's talk about it. By using those techniques, you're showing that you really do care and that you are listening. And it gives that person a sense of first catharsis and then also validation.

Right? Well, first of all, thank you. It means a lot to me that you read the book. That's really cool because you're really good at what you do. So that makes me feel good. But you're absolutely right. And here's the thing, too. When you think about the potential of emotional responses, we should be anticipating that, right? Because I think a lot of times people come into these conversations, and then they kind of approach it from a place of fear. I hope people don't respond negatively to this. No, people are people, and emotions are an integral part of who we are. And so these emotions will be there. It would be weirder. It would be really, really weird if they weren't, quite honestly. And I think one of the most challenging things from time to time is professionalism. And now I'm not saying that people should be unprofessional. I'm not saying that at all. But what I am saying is that some people can be so good at being professional and keeping that stoic game face on that they respond emotionally, but people don't perceive the emotion. So to your point, Marie, you gave the example of if somebody gets really upse, right? If somebody gets upset and it's clear that they're upset, we can say, aha, okay, I can acknowledge and validate that emotion. I understand a lot of what they said was the emotion speaking. But there's a kernel of truth in there. And so we can give them. We can give them almost that pass, right? I understand you're upset, but then if somebody says the exact same thing but calmer, you might be like, this person is an absolute lunatic. How did they arrive at that position? But you don't. Since you didn't perceive the emotionality behind it, then you respond substantively to an issue that is not fully substantive. It's also emotional, too.

When we're in the setting I'm often in, I'm often working with engineers, and so they're presenting some very technical work. And they want talk about professional. They want to appear as professional as possible. And. And what I advise them to do is show more of your authentic self. Right? And show you're a real person. You don't have it all figured out. That's why you're so eager to hear what people have to say. And I also prepare them that an audience member is going to have a physiological reaction. That fight or flight mechanism kicks in when you're introducing change. And so somebody may be so stressed they can't form a question to ask the engineer. They can't form a comment yet because they don't know the language around what you're proposing. And so it may be all bluster. Their face might get read. And then they bark out something that is very accusatory. That's when I tell the engineer it's their motion. Just let it go. Listen to that kernel of truth. And then where I am, I'm usually in the middle I will say, kwame, what's your question? Kwame says something and you're all upset. And I'll say, I think what I'm hearing is you're concerned about this. So I pick out that single kernel of truth. I ignore all the bluster. And. And sometimes the audience member might say, yeah, that's exactly it. And part of it, the advantage I have is I've been doing this for 30 years, and I know the topic. So sometimes I can help them state what the problem is, even though they can't formally articulate it, because I know, I've heard the problem so many times, I know what the engineer is thinking about. So oftentimes I'll get a result. Yeah, that's exactly what I meant. And then I'll say, okay. And then I turn to the engineer, and then I might say, now, Kwame, what would be your idea? What do you think we should do about it? And then we write the idea down. Now, sometimes the idea is crazy, right? But you never say that. And people are just trying to brainstorm, and there's nothing wrong with that. But you may know instantly that technically it won't work. But you never say, oh, that won't work, because then people will shut down, and you'll miss the good ideas and the great input. So you want to put every single thing down, no matter how crazy. And then you go away and you work with, in my case, the technical team to see how much you can address. Then you come back. Let's say it's the next public meeting or whatever the public session is, and you say, you show that flip chart with all their ideas. Here's what you wanted us to look into. This will work. We'll do it. This won't work. But this is why. And you're saying to them, we heard you. We went and we researched it, and here's the answer. There's something critically important about that process that it's very important. You don't shut people down right away, even if you know their suggestion won't work. They need that catharsis. They need to be heard.

Does your company invest in professional development training? If you believe that your team would benefit from a negotiation workshop, all you need to do is go to our website, fill out the workshop request form, and then we'll set up a time to chat. These workshops are completely customizable, and we've done them all around the country. Negotiation and conflict resolution skills are beneficial across all professions, but they're especially useful in procurement, purchasing, sales, sourcing, and Contract management. Our calendar is filling up quickly and we even have some workshops scheduled for next year if you think you might want one. I'd suggest reaching out soon so you don't miss out. Check out the link in the description to learn more. And now back to the show. Yeah, this makes a lot of sense. And now let's say there's somebody out here who is hyper focused on efficiency and getting things done. And that person just says, what is the point of this process? Why don't we just go ahead and get the right answer? Because the engineers, they went to school for this. And now we have Joe Schmo from down the street talking about how we should build roads. And so for you, from your perspective, what is the true value of integrating this type of process into the decision making process?

Well, it's easy to point out what happens when things go wrong, Right. If we could just engineer things into existence, we wouldn't have to talk to anybody. Right? But the reality is you have to communicate them into existence. You have to build support to make things happen. For example, for many years, highways were put in, engineered very well into communities. But you know what they did? Because they didn't talk to the public or they disregarded a lot of community input or concerns about underserved neighborhoods, they ended up plowing those highways right through communities and ripping them apart. Right. So we can't just let the engineers do it. Right. Because then we pay a price later and there's a lot of controversy later. Or it'll slow down the process because somebody will file a lawsuit. Right. You're much better to include that transparent process from the very beginning and bring the public along so they can help shape what ultimately the program is, whether it's a highway or a development, so that they can feel that their fingertips have been on it and then they can own it more. So my response to them is, hey, it's a risk management strategy. If you think you can get away with it and just engineer it and not have any blowback later, go for it. But I would suggest you're going to be much better served if you include the community and you're going to create a lot more community cohesion as a result. Plus you'll get a better idea.

Absolutely.

Always has amazing input.

Yeah, no, that's great. That's absolutely great. And I think one of the things that's interesting about this is that it falls in line with behavioral economics. And so Dan Ariely is a fantastic author of several books. And one of the things that he talked about in one of his books was the IKEA effect. I wish I could cite the actual author of that study. But with the IKEA effect, what they found is that people who buy their, their furniture from places like Ikea, where you have to buy it in a box and then put it together, they actually like the furniture more than people who buy it, like completely put together. I will say I am not one of those people, but I understand and appreciate that they exist. Right. And so the reason why is because they can look, like you said, and they can see their fingerprints on the work. They can say, hey, listen, I contributed in some kind of fashion. And then they have a greater sense of ownership in the final product. And so even if you could send them that finished couch in this situation, there's still a psychological benefit because now, like you said, it's risk management. They're less likely to be perturbed by it. And then when you think about it internally within our organizations too, that critical term of buy in, now they're bought in. And even though you created a great strategy and you executed it well, if people don't feel validated and appreciated through the process, you'll still reach resistance, even if it's ultimately the right answer.

Beautifully said. So true. You want to come talk to my clients with me? Some of them get it instantly and others just don't understand. It's a leap of faith because they're afraid of the public and that the public will be angry. And I just try to reassure them, if you approach them with respect, it will pay off in the end. And there's a little bit of trust that I have to build with my clients for them to believe it. But most public sector organizations anymore, they've learned from experience, they need to do that.

Right? Well, think about it, Maria. It goes back to what you were saying too. They're afraid that the public will be angry. Yes, they'll be angry regardless. They're people. That's what we do. We don't even need a good reason to be angry. It's just going to happen. Right? So an avoidance strategy doesn't minimize the reality of anger. But if, if you approach it and you're proactive about it now, you have an opportunity to manage it right now you have an element of control. It's like I said in the book, hope based strategies are not successful.

Right. And finding those little nuggets of objection early gives you the ability to respond early before the little issue becomes a huge issue. And I've seen it many times, if you don't address controversy in the community. Community. It starts to gain more credibility where, if you can be open and transparent, the person that's being so critical begins to lose credibility if you're trying to treat them fairly. And in an audience setting, there's always that person that maybe is a little unreasonable. As long as I'm treating that person with respect, I may not win them over. But I went over the rest of the audience because they'll begin to say, well, wait a minute. This team or Marie the facilitator, they're really trying hard to listen to this person, but the person won't listen. Now, I always try to cut that unreasonable person some slack because it may be that there's really good reasons why they are so angry and they just had to get it off their chest. They could end up being your biggest champion later. But you just have to have to keep listening.

Yep. Oh, that makes a lot of sense. And one of the things that we harp on a lot on the podcast and in our trainings and things like that is the importance of preparation. And so just a quick aside, listeners, if you haven't yet, make sure you download your free guides going to americannegotiationinstitute.comguide for all of your negotiation preparation guides. Well, maybe we should put in a facilitation guide. Maria, as you are editing this podcast now, you have a little bit more homework to do, so.

Yeah, Kwame, you know, that's. I always say facilitation is 90% preparation.

Yeah.

And you can't just go wing it in a public setting. And in the past, I used to see engineering teams do that, you know, put together their technical stuff, and then they'd go, percent I'm like, whoa, no, no, no, no. We have to have a pre call. We have to rehearse it. We have to prepare you for. For the questions we know people legitimately will want to know. So let's prepare for that so you don't look like a deer caught in the headlights when you get that question. And that preparation is so critically important. And so. Thank you. I'm glad to know that you emphasize that.

Oh, 100%. Yeah. It's so funny because I know the listeners would realize this happens quite frequently as we're talking. I'm saying, wow, I need to get the team to make a guide on that. So we have a ton of them now. Yeah, this is great. Talk through what that preparation and planning looks like. So when you're doing that with your team, what are some of the hallmarks of effective preparation.

So as we develop a meeting agenda and presentation, for example, I want the purpose of the meeting to be very clear. I want it to be very clear who will have what speaking role and how much time we allow for each segment of the meeting. I ask the engineers or whoever the client is, what kind of input can we still react to? What kind of input do you need to inform your next phase of development? And then once they tell me that, then I will look at the meeting content to see are we teeing up that question clearly? Are we making it clear what the options are or what the universe of input is that we are looking for? Because you have to put guardrails on. We're not asking the public to design the curvature of a curb or a ramp. That's what your professionals are for. But we critically of critical importance, we need to know the values of the community. There's trade offs with every decision you make. So if we have a decision that has a lot of trade offs, where does the community fall on that? Because the engineers are always going to design safe options. That's never a question. I mean they have to. But there's a lot of area for the community to shape things that reflects their desires. So as I'm preparing for the meeting with the engineers, I'm helping them create visuals that are immediately self evident. I'm helping them craft questions that we can ask of the audience. The worst, worst public meeting is one where the engineer gives the presentation and then says any questions you know, and you see it over and over again. The public doesn't even know where to begin. Right. So I like to structure it. Okay, we've shown you this. Here are three things that need your input. So what do you think about this? And then I can get the audience talking. Right. And then it becomes a more lively meeting. And that's where the joint problem solving begins.

Absolutely. Oh man, I love when you reference the book. I appreciate that. Listeners Finding Confidence in Conflict. Available only on Amazon because we have yet to proliferate it effectively. Okay, so check that out. But yeah, this is fantastic. I really like this. And so again, I'll be a little bit nerdy for a moment. They did a really interesting study where they had, they separated people into two groups. And, and so they said, all right, this group of people, we're going to say, you have a certain amount of time, list everything in the world that you know that is the color blue. And so they listed it out. Let's say they had a minute, they were able to get 10 things, for example, just, you know, for the sake of example there. And then with the other group, they said this. We want you to list everything in your house that is the color blue. And then that group was able to get a significantly longer list. Now it's quite obvious, I know some people have big houses, but it's probably not as big as the world, right? There are more blue things in the world than in your house. But the reality that by focusing people, by constraining their options and narrowing their focus on a specific thing, it exploded the level of creativity that they could do. And that's exactly what's happening here. Because if you go do this very technical presentation about the entire project, hey, what are your thoughts? What questions do you have? I don't even know where to start. It's like finding the starting point on a circle. But if you say, here are the key things, now focus on this particular one. What do you think about that? Now people can actually function at a high level.

Can I give you an example?

Yes, please.

So I had a project in the Cleveland area. There had been a lawsuit filed and the bicycling community wanted the Ohio Department of Transportation to build a bike treatment across a bridge. Well, they wanted to make it easier to ride bikes across a bridge. Well, the bridge was I90. It was a major highway. And ODOT did not feel safe in allowing people to bicycle on this major interstate bridge. Instead, ODOT said, the Ohio Department of Transportation, here's a bridge right beside that where you could travel from a suburb to downtown Cleveland. We will make an investment in that bridge, which happens to be the Hope Memorial Lorraine Carnegie Bridge that has the transportation, the legends of transportation. And by the way, so the Indians now I think are called the legends or something like that after that bridge. But anyway, having said that, so the, we were setting the meeting. The client was very concerned that the bicyclists were going to be really tough on them. I worked with the engineer to devise what could the bicyclists provide input on. We made it very clear what their choices were. ODOT was blown away by when we gave the bicyclists this clear direction and we gave them a budget. Their input was, we'd rather give up this so that you can afford to maintain it. We want it to be more practical here and we'd rather have this. The bicyclists ended up being so conscious of the cost and maintaining it that the Ohio Department of Transportation was just so pleased. Now, it was a three step process. A lot More to it than that. But once we said, here's what you can work with, here's what's on the table. The stakeholders were creative. They suggested great things. In fact, at one point somebody said, well, I'm sure you can't do it. Oh, it's the Guardians of Transportation, not the legends, the Guardians. I'm sure you can't do it. But these Guardians are beautiful and be really great if you could light them. Well, ODOT worked with the museum and found a way to light those up. And so the bicycling community was blown away. Oh, we proposed a creative idea. It was in the budget and they did it. So it ended up being such a win, win situation because we allowed everybody to come to the table together, but we gave them guardrails.

That's fantastic. I think that's a great example. And so I know we're coming up on time now, but before you go, I wanted to see if you had any last tips for people as they try to facilitate a meeting.

Yeah, I know it can create a lot of anxiety. If you're going to be with a big crowd, you suspect they're going to be angry. If you can just think like I do. Right. So my dad was a patriot, real conservative guy. He was the one that would go to all these public meetings when nobody else could, and he was the one that was railing against the machine and. But at the end of the day, he just wanted a better world and he wanted to be treated fairly. And so if you can think in your mind, maybe it's your grandma, maybe it's your mom or dad, somebody who is that same mindset and think, the audience just wants me to be kind. They just want me to be authentic and real and listen. And if you can center yourself back to that and look at the audience, then with respect, you're gonna survive. You're gonna survive. And at the end of my meetings that I facilitate, even if there's angry crowds, if I'm able to get to everyone and say, I hear what you're saying, thank you. I'd like you to wrap up because I have four more people to talk to. Everybody gets their word in. I've had people leave the meeting and say to me, wow, I know we were a tough crowd, but thank you. You let us all talk. You gave us all a turn and you still got us out on time.

I love that. That is fantastic. Marie, thank you so much. We really appreciate you sharing your time.

It's been an honor to be here. Thank you so much. I can't wait to listen to your next podcast.

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