How to Have Difficult Conversations in the Post-Covid World With Cheryl Jones

Hello, my friends, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. Negotiate Anything is produced by the American Negotiation Institute and with over 3 million downloads and listeners in over 180 countries, listeners just like you have made this the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm Kwame Christian and I'm the director of the American Negotiation Institute. We're growing and I want to introduce you to our new team members and new trainers. This will help to give you new diverse perspectives on negotiation and conflict resolution. That's why I'm excited to let you know that Shane Martin, our head of sales and partnerships, is going to serve as co host of the show from time to time. We are passionate about providing you with the best content that will help to make your difficult conversations easier, both at work and at home. Lastly, before we get into the episode, I want to remind you that our team conducts negotiation and conflict resolution trainings in the United States and abroad. Our trainings will give you the practical skills you need to resolve conflict, negotiate, lead, and persuade with confidence. Click the link in the description below to learn how we can help to make your difficult conversations easier. And now, let's get to the show. Cheryl, thanks for joining us today.

I'm so excited to be here. Kwame, thanks for having me.

I am even more excited, Cheryl, because this has been on my radar for a while and I'm super pumped to have you. So before we get started, let's start off by telling the listeners a little bit about your yourself and what you do.

Yep. So I am chief people officer at Friends of the Children, and we're a nonprofit that provides paid professional mentors to children who face the most barriers. And I've been doing that for four and a half years. But my primary work experience is working for staffing. I worked for a global staffing company for 16 years where I saw all sorts of made all sorts of matches between employers and employees when I work for the staffing firm.

Fantastic. Yes. And listeners, check out Friends of the Children. It's an awesome organization. And also let the listeners know about how we started to like how we got to know each other.

Absolutely. I was really fascinated by. I started listening to your podcast, you know, so even more excited to be here since I'm an avid listener. But also I saw, you know, your TED Talk and knew that you could really help us at Friends of the Children because we really wanted to have difficult conversations, to have a methodology to use difficult conversations. And I felt that the framework that you have was simple, straightforward, and could help us with all sorts of conversations from an HR perspective, from a personal perspective. And we at Friends of the Children want everyone to bring their whole self to work. And your approach really does that. Right. It allows you to, in all areas of your life, to have difficult conversations because as you like to say, the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And who doesn't want a best life, you know? So, yes, we were super excited to have you help us with some conversations.

That's great. Oh, listeners, you can hear my smile. I think it's pretty obvious. This is great. This made my day. Well, and the day is going to get better because we haven't even gotten into the content yet. And so today, today we're going to be talking about negotiation and difficult conversations, but specifically in this post Covid. Well, this Covid world that we're finding ourselves in, and specifically the nuances that exist between the relationship between employers and employees. And so, Cheryl, I'll hand it off to you to kind of set the stage and then we'll start moving through the interview.

Yep. You know, at the beginning of 2021, SHRM did a study and they announced that they discovered that more than half of employees were going to be looking for work in 2021. Post Covid. Now post in the COVID We're still working on that, but I will say that. And they called it a turnover tsunami. And I loved that visual turnover tsunami, because first of all, I think that you have weather anomalies all across the country. It's like tornadoes may hit or miss, but a tsunami comes in and everybody's impacted. I was really drawn to the term turnover tsunami because I felt it was just shocking, but yet also informative. We're starting to experience it. Employers and employees are starting to see some of their best people leave. And I think it's important that we all think about what does that mean? If you're the employee, what should you be looking for? And if you're the employer, what should you be considering to keep people.

Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. And so this provides us within organizations to have opportunities to have a lot of difficult conversations. And so when we think about the conversations that employers need to have when it comes to discussing what work will look like, what, what shape do those types of conversations take, in your opinion? And what are the organizations and leaders that are at the forefront of this and doing it well, how are they approaching it?

Yeah, you know, when you enter a negotiation, you should always know what your negotiables are. So you need to do your research. And I believe that organizations should definitely be thinking about how flexible can they be. You know, we've been in this Covid situation for a while. Many of us are working from home. Families are finding a new way, a new rhythm to this work from home process. So you're going to have employees ask you how much of that can they maintain on a go forward basis. So you need to get ahead of that. You know, are you going to be. There's this new term that has come into being called remote first, which means that you as an employer are saying, I am going to be a remote first employee. Everyone I hire will have the option to be remote. Or are you thinking about something that's maybe more hybrid can work for you, but you definitely want to see what you can do to challenge some of your maybe long held beliefs about how work should be and even go roll by roll and say, can this, can this role be remote permanently? And really, just think about what your negotiables are as an employer. Because I can tell you one thing, if you haven't prepared to negotiate with your employees, then they will negotiate, but they will negotiate with someone new. So you definitely want to know what your negotiables are and get ahead of it. Like have a plan, survey your employees, find out do they want to work remotely, are they really anxious to get back into the office, you know, know what your employees want and then also know how flexible you can be and still meet the needs of your business.

Yeah, it makes a lot of sense, Cheryl. And tell me what you think about this, because it sounds like there is a possibility for some unique interactions that could come into play at these in this situation. Because right now we're talking about the employer having these negotiations with the employees, trying to figure out what it is they want, why they want it, what, what are those negotiables where we can kind of FL in order to make people feel more comfortable. But within the higher ranks of organizations, there are different leaders and different leaders have different philosophies. And so you might be a leader who says, I'm very flexible. The other person says, I pride myself in rigidity. And so if you are that leader who is flexible, how do you approach the conversation with your peers to get them on board with providing more flexibility for the employees?

Well, there are a lot of surveys out there that really talk about why people leave work. And about 35% of people leave for more money and about 25% work life balance. Right. So yes, you could be that rigid. Person, but hopefully you have a lot of money. Maybe that's going to be your approach. That is a valid approach. But I will say, when people leave for money, they're still going to be looking for that work life balance. At the end of the day, you know, I'd like to start with relating to what we've just been through. I mean, now is a great time. If you're one of those people that feels that your organization should be more flexible. We've already been flexible. Now let's take advantage of it. Let's make it an advantage for us as an organization. Right. Let's change that dynamic. And as we start to see people leave, people, I'm sure in your organization, if you're one of these people who are looking to have the conversation, you've already had somebody leave that you really would have liked to stay. Now is a great time to get ahead of that before that big tsunami wave comes into your organization. And do you want to be a victim of that or do you want to be able to ride that wave? Because it's coming. Covid has been very traumatic for us across the world and certainly in the United States. We are all feeling a little closed in. We're looking to redefine our relationships with loved ones, with employers. That's one thing that Covid has done for us all. It's a real unifier with trauma. We know that people don't always make the best decisions. You want to get ahead of that. You want to create a space in your, at your company where people feel welcomed and they belong and they feel connected, and that will help you retain folks. And if you can approach someone who's like that, dollars and cents and not very rigid, you say, listen, we've been doing it. This is coming. We're already seeing people leave. Let's get ahead of it. Let's prevent the leak, you know, let's get ahead of it. And I think that you know a lot of people, but you don't want to. You want to take it tidbit by tidbit, though. You don't want to just come in with a big old plan that we're going to be remote first and, you know, nobody's ever going to be in the office. This is a negotiation, you know, let's talk about what meets the needs for each role. Maybe it's not all roles. Maybe it's some roles, you know, and it's a great, great way to start the conversation with someone.

Does your company invest in professional development training? If you believe that your team would benefit from a negotiation workshop. All you need to do is go to our website, fill out the workshop request form, and then we'll set up a time to chat. These workshops are completely customizable, and we've done them all around the country. Negotiation and conflict resolution skills are beneficial across all professions, but they're especially useful in procurement, purchasing, sales, sourcing, and contract management. Our calendar is filling up quickly, and we even have some workshops scheduled for next year if you think you might want one. I'd suggest suggest reaching out soon so you don't miss out. Check out the link in the description to learn more. And now back to the show. Yeah, that's fantastic. And one of the things that we mentioned in your notes here is that employers need to get a better understanding of what it is that the employees want. And one of the things that you mentioned was surveys. Surveys are a great tool to gather information, but in some situations, they're a little bit limited in terms of the quality of information they have their place. And then there are spaces where a tool like negotiation could come into play. And so for you, as a leader in a company, what do you do when it comes to having individual conversations with employees or small group conversations with employees, and when you're trying to solicit feedback on the direction of the company?

That's such a great question, Kwame. I'm so happy you asked it. One of the tools that I find is so very valuable is a stay interview. Have you ever heard of state interviews, Kwame?

No.

Yes. You know, when people leave an organization, we do exit interviews, right? We find out, why did you leave? You know, what inspired you to move? But you could actually do a stay interview where you interview your employees and you talk about when was the last time you thought about leaving? What do you enjoy most about your job? What are some of the biggest challenges of your job? What would you like to see change? And it gives you, as the employer, the opportunity to address those issues before someone even decides to leave. Oh, you really like doing more of interviews. You like doing more trainings with folks. We can make that happen for you. And why are you thinking about leaving? When was the last time you thought about leaving? Oh, you thought about leaving when Covid first started, but you like the way we handled it? Well, how can we continue that? Or we didn't handle it so great. What can we do for you so that you know that you're appreciated? So you're having those conversations before someone even thinks about leaving, but really commits to leaving.

Now, actually, this is good because one of the things that we talked about in the training with Friends of the Children was psychological safety. And so in a conversation like that, I could see it being very easy for the employee to get skeptical. Wait a second. Why is she asking me these questions? Am I in trouble if I say I was planning on leaving? Are they just going to start getting ready to reply, replace me now and then fire me? Right. There's a lot of catastrophizing that could occur in that situation. And so as a leader, what can you do in a conversation like that to make them feel safe to share the information?

Yep. Well, you know, I think Covid is the perfect time to make this part of your culture. You know, we know that people are redefining so many relationships in their lives. So we want to know from you how we can make this a better workplace for you. You don't just kind of schedule it with them. You talk about how we're going to start this new program where we're going to do state interviews because we really want this to be a great place to work and we need to hear from you as an individual, because what makes a great place to work for me is not the same as what makes a great place to work for you. So we want to have individual conversations and we're going to do this. And you do it every six months, you know, much like a review process, so that you're staying connected and it's your way as a manager. And the manager doesn't. HR doesn't do it. I know. I'm chief people officer and it's all about HR all the time. No, it's a way for the manager to stay really connected. Right. To who they manage and for the manager to get feedback, too, about how it's better for them to communicate. How can I communicate with you better? How can we establish a rapport better? So it really is a two way feedback conversation. So that. And you just present it as such and you just make it part of the culture. You just don't want to do it kind of haphazardly, you know, and then you say, this is a new program that we're going to do so that we can get feedback from you. And most people, maybe the first time they're a little skeptical, but over time, as they see that you're taking the feedback and actually doing something with it. Now, I will say don't do these if you're not prepared to make adjustments because that will definitely increase dissatisfaction. You know, Kwame I told you I want to do more of this, and we never talked about it again. Right. Then that's going to create more dissatisfaction when you're looking to create more satisfaction. So you really do need to be in a mindset in a place where you are going to listen to this feedback and make adjustments. And if you can't make adjustments, you're going to be transparent about that. You can't and why.

Yeah, that's great. I especially like the idea of making it more routine so the person doesn't feel as though they're singled out. So we're just saying this is in general our policy going forward. And it's not just going to be one time. We're going to do this regularly, too. And so the more times people are presented with a stimulus, the more comfortable they get with it. Of course, as long as it's not a horrible stimulus. Right. So I think, I think that is, that's great. And especially, again, paying attention to the fact that these are just, these are not conversations that are just for show. They're actually meaningful. So we're. We're going to listen. We're going to prove that we're listening not just by repeating what they say in the moment and maintaining eye contact and giving those nonverbal affirmations. Not just through that, but we're going to show that we were listening by actually doing something at the end. Right. That's the best way to show that you're listening. Behavior change. I think that's fantastic. And, and now that gives us an opportunity to filter into that third point and where we're talking about what employees should consider when they are considering potentially new employers. And so now we're in Covid. People are shifting positions often. Now. What are those things that they should focus on as they evaluate potential employers?

Well, the first thing they should really do is be honest with themselves about what's important to them. You know, I think that we as a society say, oh, more, of course, more money is important. Yes, more money is important for sure. But if you really need flexibility because you really like this new life you have built with being able to be more accessible to your partner or your children or, you know, is that what you really want? Because, you know, if that's what it is, then that you need to understand what your negotiables are, you know, what's really meaningful to you. And second of all, I would say talk to your current employer, because moving during COVID is not going to be the ideal time to move. I know that it's kind of a buyer's, you know, a seller's market, so to speak, if you consider yourself the seller when it comes to the employee. But, you know, so many of us, about 57% of us are burnt out, you know, so you're talking about 60, and that's, that's a survey. So I like to round up. I'm just like, you know, so 60% of us are feeling burned out. Right. So if you're feeling burned out in your current role, what's to say that you, when you move to another one, that you're going to get a better situation? Right. And how did the new employer, your potential new employer, that is, how have they fared during COVID What are their strategies around layoffs, furloughs? I tell you, I have a really close friend who made a move during COVID She got a lot of money and she's been furloughed twice because there's so many unpredictables in the market right now. You really want to be sure that you know what's important to you and that before you talk to a new employer, that you have given your current employer a chance because you know the variables where you are, like, you have inside knowledge for those negotiations, right? You understand what the levers are. If you take a little time and really think about it and also think about what's important to your employer right now, they're going to have objections. You mentioned the person who's a little bit more rigid. Well, we can talk to that person in this way. I'm still going to come in on Thursdays, so they'll still get to see me, whatever's important. You know, those variables where you are. And don't be discouraged if they're a little rigid at first because we're all trying to figure this out during COVID But definitely start the conversation with your current employer. I would encourage most people to do that. But you know how your employer is. Maybe you feel like you said, there's, you know, if I start talking about, you know, leaving, they're going to, you know, that's going to be really difficult for me. But if you can definitely talk to your current employer to get a feel for how flexible they're going to be if they're not being forthright. Because when I said the beginning, I'd like for employers to really be forthright about what they can do and to really get in tune with their negotiables. But I mean, it's super important also that you think about, do the research on your new employer, when was the last time they had layoffs? So many employers right now, it's so hard to hire. It's a really hard time to hire. Talent is hard to find and people are doing really desperate things. And organizations may not be making long term sustainable choices. So maybe you're the last person in and you'll be the first person out. Or they'll be hiring freezes or they'll cut pay for everyone. These are strategies that organizations use when they have made decisions, you know, that were reactive. So you also want to be sure that they have a long term sustainable plan for maintaining your new role. And that's a little harder to find out, but you could always ask, hey, listen, how did things go through Covid? Did you lay people off? Did you furlough people? When was the last time you had a layoff? Have you ever reduced salaries for anyone? And if so, when was that? And that gives you an idea of kind of what that new organization could possibly do for you.

Yeah, this is great. This is really, really helpful information. And I know we've covered a lot over the course of this interview, but I want to end with something a little bit outside the box. And so if you were to give a piece of advice to employees and employers who are having this difficult conversation, just one tip, what would that one tip be?

Listen. Be open and listen to one another. Don't shut anything down. On the face of it, I think if Covid has taught us nothing, it's that so many things that we thought were not possible are possible. Right? So when you come at a conversation saying, absolutely not, there's no way we're going to allow you to work from home. But you've been working from home for a year and a half. That's going to cause a little bit of angst for an employee and vice versa. As the employee, you may not understand some of the business ramifications of working from home for all this time, that maybe the organization is looking to grow and to be able to generate more revenue. But they do need a little bit more FaceTime. So if you can walk into the conversations being open and listening, both parties are going to fare better.

That's fantastic. Cheryl, thank you. Thank you. Thank you for joining us today. We really, really appreciate it. Congratulations. You've just joined an elite club by listening to a full episode. You're now officially on the Negotiate Anything team. So welcome aboard. What most team members do is they subscribe to the podcast because that allows them to automatically get the latest episodes of the show. The best things in life lie on the other side of difficult conversations. Keep learning, keep practicing, and keep getting better. Your relationships will improve, your career will soar, and you'll have the confidence you need to get the most out of these crucial conversations. Again, thank you for joining the team. We're excited to have you, and I will see you in the next episode. I'll catch you later.