How To Have Healthy Relationships With Austin Hill

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. Thanks for joining us today. With over 10 million downloads and listeners from more than 180 different countries, it's dedicated listeners just like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of of the American Negotiation Institute. Now, before we get into today's insightful conversation, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives. Have you ever found yourself wishing that you could navigate those high stakes conversations with more confidence? Or perhaps you're looking to empower your team with the art of persuasion and conflict resolution? At the American Negotiation Institute, we've crafted special specialized keynotes and workshops tailored for those very needs. We've transformed the negotiation skills of professionals worldwide, and we're eager to do the same for you. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And our goal is to help you improve your lives and the lives of those around you, one difficult conversation at a time. Don't let another challenging conversation leave you second guessing. Click the link in the description to discover how we can help you find confidence in conflict, negotiate better deals, and have stronger relationships. Because in the world of business, every conversation counts. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview.

Austin, thanks for joining us today.

Thanks, Kwame. Super excited to be here. I am really pumped to be talking to you.

Likewise, my friend. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Sure. My name is Austin Hill. I am the director of community development at the refuge. It is an addiction recovery program located in Columbus, Ohio. And I'm also the husband of Chelsea. We've been married for 16 years, and we have three daughters. And I have an awesome dog, so that is who I am. Really quick.

This is great. This is great, everybody. This episode is going to be fun because we're going to talk about what we can do to have healthy relationships. And we're going to use Austin's work at the refuge as essentially a case study for what that means for us in our everyday life. And so before we get into it, Austin, could you just give an example of what the refuge does? And then we'll actually go into the. A little bit deeper into the content.

Yeah. So we are a men's addiction recovery program. We're residential in nature, so that means. And we're very long. So we're 13 months. So we are unpacking an awful lot of past history, and we focus mainly on relational health. So we're looking holistically at a guy instead of just like, stop using drugs. So what we do is we look at what's underneath, which does require a lot of talking about emotions and how we relate to other and how we respond to each other. So it is unpacking the trauma or reasons behind the downward spiral that leads to addiction. The drug use itself is the result of broken relationships. So we're getting to identify what those broken relationships are and addressing that. So that's what I do in a day in and day out setting. Sitting in circles with a whole bunch of guys talking about our feelings.

That's great. Listen, I think the world would be a better place if we had a little bit more of that. So I appreciate that work. And everybody make sure to check out the link in the description if you want to learn more about Austin and the work of the refuge. It's really great. If you're in Columbus, you can get involved, and if you're not, you can support in other ways. So make sure to check that out. And as we think about healthy relationships as the topic for this podcast, I think it would be helpful to just get an idea of what it means to have a healthy relationship. So in your experience, how would you define a healthy relationship?

A healthy relationship is when you are, I guess, at its pinnacle is when you are known, like deeply known by someone, and you know them. So what that means is they know the ins and outs of who you are, your weaknesses. They know those deep, dark secrets that you don't want other people to know because you trust them. And so how we, I guess how we identify what it is to be known, it means we are essentially giving people the tools and weapons to hurt us and trusting that they don't. Because if we think about our most, the people we care about the most and that we want to care for, they know those things that really hurt us, but they don't intentionally go after us. So that's what it is to be in a relationship. Which is why relationships are tricky, because the closer we get to people, the easier it is for them to hurt us. We're giving permission. It's essentially saying, here's the set of things that will crush me for a week. I trust you to not use them against me. And that's what, like, that's kind of the same way as, like, if you think about what does it mean to fall in Love, it means we are building a relationship with someone who we think can heal our deepest wounds. That's what falling in love is. It's building a relationship with someone that we think is going to heal our deepest wounds. But the great thing about it is, great I say it that way, where the people we do end up falling in love with are also the ones that activate our deepest wounds the most. We just trust that they are the ones who are going to help heal it.

Oh, man, I have chills hearing that description. You're spot on. It is equal parts, I would say, beautiful and terrifying too. Very terrifying too. Because I think people can listen to that and they could say, this is like some of my books best experiences have been when I've opened myself up to people and availed myself to the benefits of a healthy relationship. And then that same person will say, some of my most hurtful moments were when I've opened myself up and availed myself to the benefits of a beautiful relationship. And so how do you reconcile that interesting parallel?

Oh, man. I think what it is, it first starts off, if we're talking about how do you build a healthy relationship knowing that the deeper you go, the more likely it is you're going to be hurt. It's you have to be healthy with the relationship with yourself. And that takes just as much time to build relationships with other people. It's that one relationship you have with yourself. Because, like, we'll just use addiction, for example. Addiction is essentially a life filled with manipulation and lies. But the people that. So if you take it outside of addiction, just people who don't have addiction to a substance, the people we lie to the most is ourself. We lie to ourself the most, and that causes a whole lot of problems. So it's making sure that we have that relationship with ourself in a good spot first off and then start moving forward to other people. But we get it all mixed up because especially in Western culture, when you hear the word falling in love, you think, oh, that's romantic, but that's a romantic love. But what I'm talking, like, it works multiple ways. As a father, I love my daughters and I love my wife, and I love tacos. I'm using the same word, but it means different things. Right. And so in a relational standpoint, I can say I love a community, but I do believe that in order to build a healthy relationship is very similar to building healthy communities. It's that willingness to avail yourself, like what you were saying earlier. But that requires enough Strength in yourself to know that like, I can be hurt, but that does not define who I am. If you try to build a life where you're never hurt, it's gonna be super boring and very shallow. Like that's what we want. It's that dichotomy or tension between those things that we deeply need. Because I do think we are personally. Like, our deepest desire is to be known, but it's also the scariest thing. Our body reacts just as much because to be vulnerable. Brene Brown is excellent. All the research that she has done on vulnerability and shame. Our physical response to the possibility of being shamed is the same response as the possibility of getting hit in the face. It's a physical response. So. And being vulnerable is giving the opportunity to walk around, giving people like again. So if you go all the way back to like to build a healthy relationship, we're giving people the tools to hurt us. And that's like, it's like a negative way to look at it. But that's what it's knowing that is good. Good to know like, why am I responding this way? Because we're like walking around being vulnerable, walking around having this feeling that like I might get punched in the face emotionally by sharing this. So a good like steps in this thing to get to that known level is starting first at like I feel seen as a person. So like I see you. That's a good first step. When you first meet somebody, it's like seeing them for who they are, right? And once they feel seen, then you can kind of test that next level is like, are they safe? Are they safe for me, like we can all think of the people. Another like using kind of the right language for people so that you guys can, so that you can understand it is I say the reason why I am the example of what love is and how it's different. Another way to look at it is I feel seen. So if you feel loved or like, I love tacos, I love my daughters, I love some of my friends. So I see them, so I see who they are. Then are they safe? Because there's people who we love, who we see and know that definitely aren't safe. But once you realize you're safe with that person, you're able to avail yourself or be vulnerable with them. So you're better to. Then you can then next step, understand. Understand who you are, understand who they are. And once you really understand who somebody is, then you get to that known. So it's a step by step process. So that's a good way to break down how to get to where you really want to be. So first it's I'm seen. I feel safe, Safe enough to reveal more and more of who I am so I'm understood and then finally to be known. But that's really hard when it's just self focused. So it's constantly doing it with other people. We're doing it. So like you and I, qualmi, it's knowing first, like, do I see who you are? Are we safe enough where we can be honest and vulnerable with each other? And then as, as we do that, we get to understand our stories, who we are, where you come from, where I come from. And then once we get to that point, you kind of understand like, oh, that's why he responds this way. That's why I'm passionate about this. That's why this ticks. Ticks. Ticks you off or ticks me off. So we understand who we are and then we get to that known level of relationship with each other.

This is great. And I love that breakdown of seen, safe and known. So let's start with the first one being seen. Let's say if we're talking to people who are listening and they're saying, I'm trying to be human for the first time, how do we break down these steps if I'm going through it almost in a systematic type of way, which isn't how it happens organically, but just to keep it simple, how do you go about seeing someone and then being seen? So let's just focus on you seeing somebody else.

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Sure. So there are. So if we're looking at those things as levels and the first level being I want to be seen, we want to know first, like, how is this relationship going to work and how are we going to increase that deeper relationship? Well, it's knowing there's three parts to every relationship. Like there's Constantly things happening between you and somebody else. The first one is appropriate trust. The second one is mutual accountability. And the third is authenticity and vulnerability. If you have those three things, you can tell where the relationship is going to go. So to break that down, first, if you are seen and loved or just seen, how much trust do I give you? So it's an appropriate trust. I'm not going to go around and share these deep dark secrets with someone right away. So it's appropriate trust with somebody. Another example is like I trust and love my 10 year old but I'm not going to let her do open heart surgery on me because she's 10. So appropriate trust. The next one that mutual accountability. If you are in a relationship where there's no accountability. Now that sounds kind of intimidating to hold someone you just met accountable, but essentially what it is is putting a healthy boundary in between yourself and somebody else. So for somebody who you meet right off the bat, a good way to be held accountable or hold them accountable is if they ask something of you or ask for help and you're able to identify as like, is that something I can or can't do? So it's setting a boundary. We do that all the time when we're in a meeting or if we are meeting somebody, meeting somebody new for the first time. Especially if you're in a helping, like a human services standpoint, your job is to help, but you're essentially right off the bat starting like this is where I stop and you begin. And that's the healthy boundary. So if there is a point in time where that accountability is just one way, that's not a relationship. If I can't hold you accountable and you can't hold or vice versa, that's a, like a job where there's I am reporting to you. But even then it's, it's deeper. If you can hold your boss accountable, you'll have a deeper relationship with them. That's why mutual accountability is so important, because we have the same set of measurements for saying, I expect this from you and you should expect that from me. So it has to have mutual accountability. The other one is that vulnerability and authenticity which we already talked about, but it is the keystone. Am I being real? So if we just use those as a circle, let's say I break your trust, you hold me accountable. It's like, hey, you lied about this. That's holding someone accountable, saying you said you would follow through on this project or task, it didn't happen, then my response is negative. So like, well I don't believe that, blah, blah, blah, it didn't happen. I use excuses, I deny it. You automatically will go like, well, I don't know if he's being authentic. And I know I can't be as vulnerable with him because he's broken that trust. So we do it in reverse order. So if we do that in reverse order and it's healthy, you say like, hey, I'm going to be honest with you about something. You held me accountable, I messed up. If I am vulnerable enough with you to just know that I won't be rejected by you, so I apologize, I own my own and take responsibility for my mistake. That builds trust. That trust. So then that leads it to the. That kind of builds us up in that stair step towards wanting to be known is if we're using one. Using all three of those tools to build a healthy relationship, we get deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper known by people.

I love this. This is great. We have appropriate trust, mutual accountability, and then vulnerability plus authenticity here. When you think about these three elements, what makes it so difficult for people to really follow through on these things?

So in the same way that our deepest desire is to be known, our. Our biggest barriers and obstacles to that are fear, shame, and guilt. So these three things are written an awful lot about something. In my work in addiction, there's an excellent book called the Relational Soul. It's written by Jim Cofield and Richard Plass. They talk about those three things as the response that we typically have to a difficult situation. And we all kind of have a tendency to feel one of those. So the reason why people don't follow through is because they feel guilty. One we'll just use I feel guilty for not doing it. I'm not adding up to it. The other one, then, it's shame, which is like, shame is different than guilt because shame is, I am bad. Guilt is I did something bad. So that difference is pretty important because shame is like, there's something wrong with me compared to guilt. I did something wrong. And then fear is just like fear of either rejection, pain, whatever is. Those are huge motivators to protect ourselves because we naturally want to survive. And it's different in our context because we're not constantly being threatened with death on a day in and day out basis. There are dangerous parts of the us, but most of the time we'll be able to survive. And so our biggest threat is relationships. So it's the thing we need the most and it's the thing that hurts us the most.

Oh, that's deep. Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. It's so interesting because it's something that we need, but something that can be deeply scary and hurtful at the same time. And it seems like if we want to be the people who are deepening the relationships, it seems like there is some responsibility that we have to really take that first step and put ourselves out there and be vulnerable in order to trigger that reciprocal vulnerability from the other person that we're trying to connect with.

Yeah. In any setting, whether it's a one on one conversation or a group setting, the level of vulnerability which is required to grow is limited by the person who's can be least vulnerable. So the growth is limited by the person who can be least vulnerable. So what do we do with that? It's. We practice vulnerability with those. So we have to be a little bit more vulnerable with someone to show that it's safe. Right. So we're constantly stretching. There's always a pull towards health. It's really hard to grow towards health relationally. And we can all hear that because like we have this nat, this tendency to pull away when things become hard because we don't want to feel pain. But then there's some people, it's like, well no, pain doesn't scare me. I'll just make it worse or I'll just really lean into it. And then people push them away. That is also a way to protect yourself by pushing others away, by being too vulnerable. So it's all about limits to it.

Okay, so let's go deeper onto that point because I think that's something that people don't fully appreciate. And so just to summarize and then give you an opportunity to go deeper, you're saying that people will actually use vulnerability and be too vulnerable as a strategy to avoid further depth in a relationship. Go deeper on that. That's so fascinating.

Yeah. So if ever we can all think of somebody who we've worked with, interacted with or a family member who will just like we call this is coarse but it's like word vomit. I'm just going to over share or I'm going to invade your space. Physical space which is like that is a physical way of being vulnerable is being close to somebody. If we think like honestly our most intimate relationships to make families, we are incredibly vulnerable with each other physically all the time. So if we're to be to use vulnerability as a way to protect ourselves, it's like a shock and awe way versus like I'm just gonna share something absolutely Crazy. And then they'll never. They'll never ask me again. So they'll know. It's like, oh, man, if I. If I open this can of worms, this person will talk, talk forever. Or they'll share all the stuff that makes me really uncomfortable. So vulnerable. It's. With anything. It's about. It's not about a right and wrong or like, there's extremes, so it's staying on. It's kind of. We'll use a road as an analogy. A road in the middle is where we need to be. And there's like an exaggerated and a diminished side to everything. You can be not vulnerable at all or way too vulnerable with people, so we don't need to walk around. I think somebody gave the example of being vulnerable. Feels like I am going up on stage naked and expecting everyone to applaud. So that's the feeling that's like. Was like, I want everyone to applaud, but I'm going to go up on stage naked. Like, that's probably too much for some people. So it's identifying who we should be vulnerable with. It is a constant, I think, visually. So it's like this constant churn with different people all the time, figuring out where we are in our relationship that's appropriate, that we build a healthier relationship or knowing if something needs healed. Because the thing is, like, you and I are married. We are constantly seeking and wanting to be known by our spouses. But we do like. We do stupid stuff. So it kind of like drops us down a couple of things. It's like, because we feel deeply hurt if we don't. If we took something for granted or someone. We made someone feel unsafe. So it takes time to build that back. But there are ways into it. Just like with trauma. Trauma isn't something where it's a static state of life where I'm always traumatized. It's a wave where you can be traumatized, but you can heal from it also. And there are ways out of it, and it's not a forever feeling, but there will be. Like with any wound, a physical wound, it heals and there's scars, and we have to change some of the things we do. But there are. There are ways out of trauma. In the same way, there are ways to build healthy relationships once that. Once they've been hurt or broken.

Yeah. And so what it sounds like to me is that we could use vulnerability as a tool, or we could use it as a weapon. So we could use it as a tool to deepen connection, or we could use it as a weapon to push people away. It makes a lot of sense. I've never thought of it that way, but it's really powerful when you think about those as two potential options, too.

Yeah. And it's also just knowing how to use it correctly. Because if we're using it as a tool, you can have, like, a watch is a tool and so is a hammer, but if I use them the wrong way, it's user error. It's my fault for using a watch as a hammer. The watch didn't do its job wrong. I did. I used it. I tried to use a watch as a hammer. It's not going to work. And if I try to use a hammer to tell the time it's a tool, it's knowing how to use it correctly. So we can. Like, that's kind of. That's one of the risks of. We kind of see these waves of social media, like psychologists, where they will use. Like, it's true. Like, what they're saying is true. But then if you take it too far, like, you need to be able to use that tool correctly, and it takes time, which we do not like. It takes time to use these things properly.

Yeah. And practice, too. Because I know, Austin, there are times in my life where I look back and I might have been too vulnerable with somebody, and I can look back on it and I could look at it two different ways. I could think about it in a disempowering type of way, or I could have a more empowering approach to it. I think a disempowering approach is completely blaming the other side. Oh, they betrayed me. They did this, they did that. They shouldn't have done that. It's 100% their fault. But I think we can treat it kind of like we would in a difficult conversation. Because in difficult conversations, one of the benefits is, one of the strategies is shifting from blame to contribution. It's not 100% your fault. I'm not blaming you. I'm saying there is something that you contributed to this, and there's something that I contributed to this. And I think when it comes to vulnerability and oversharing and then getting hurt as a result of that, the empowering interpretation is saying, let me look back, Let me think back on what I did. What did I do well? What did I do poorly? Yeah, this is probably not the time. This is probably not the person to share that particular thing in that particular way. Now I can make that adjustment. I don't need to armor up. As Brene Brown Would say, and never be vulnerable again. That's not the right thing. I used the right tool in the wrong way, and I can make that adjustment and do better in the future and still continue to have healthy relationships with other people.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. The only thing we are actually responsible for if we boil it all down, is our response. I am only responsible for my response. I can't do anything about if somebody is angry at me. Whether it's justified or not. I am only responsible for my response. How do I respond to them? Do I look, do I. Do I seek forgiveness, or do I deny that it happened? That's on me. So if we realize that the level of vulnerability that I choose to show, that is on me. And I can choose to use the time like what you're talking about being too invulnerable. It's like, well, I am going to again respond differently next time. Not at all. Because not responding is a choice also.

That makes sense. Wow, this is really great. Now, when you think about the things that people can do to improve their relationships. We talked about a lot of different things here, Austin, but just parting wisdom, where somebody says, okay, how do I start? What do you think somebody should do as a first step to start to have healthier relationships with the people around them?

I think the first one is just acknowledging where you're at currently. Like stating the present situation or just like your present. The current relationship? Just saying, using I statements. I feel like our relationship is under a lot of tension because of my. Because of how I've acted this past week. So it's just take. It's like, what is one thing that you can do this week to improve it? So it's stating what's currently happening, owning what you should. A good tool is oar. O A R. I grab an oar and paddle. So it's ownership, accountability, and responsibility. So own what's yours, just yours. Accept that you will be held accountable and then be responsible for what is yours and just yours, not everybody's. You don't need to own everything in the relationship. There are part like, the people we care about do dumb things too, and that's fine, but we still like them, we still love them. It works both ways. Like, I do stupid stuff and I accept that, you know, people still love me even though I mess up. So in a first step, it's just stating where you're presently at. Own what you need to accept and own and take responsibility for what you need to. And then in that, like, accountability part, you're giving you're extending trust. You're saying, please hold me accountable for this, or I apologize for this. I will work to improve. So that's a good way to say, like, hey, this. I want to be safer, or just, you know, if. If they're like, well, I know. I know that. Where you want to go with the relationship, and that's really. Be specific about where you want to go with the relationship. And this works in every. Every relationship, not just family, but at work. Like, do I want to improve at work, or do I want more responsibility? Work. It's stating where you want to go and then use that as the measurement or the accountability towards it and takes vulnerability to state where you want to go with a relationship.

Wow. So your answer, I will say, is accurate. And I will also say, as a human, I don't like your answer.

I don't either.

Oh, my goodness. It's hard. That's so hard. That is so hard. But I think what you're doing here is. I go back to the concept of conversational leadership. This is relationship leadership. You are essentially showing other people, the other people in the relationship, through your example, how they should comport themselves to. This isn't easy for me to take ownership, and it's not easy for me to expose myself, to be held accountable and take responsibility for my contribution. This hurts. It physically hurts when I do that, Austin. I don't feel good when I do it. I know that it's effective. I know that it's what I need to do, but it doesn't make it easy to do. But I think it makes it easier for the other person to reciprocate if I see somebody else taking the lead. So I think if we start to take. Think of ourselves in terms of leaders within the relationship, it makes what we need to do in order to have a healthy relationship just a little bit more palatable. Not easier, but just a little bit more palatable, and then we can get that ball rolling so we can start to have better relationships with the people around us.

Agreed. That's perfect. Yes.

Thank you. Listen, let's end this with you saying I'm perfect. I like that, Austin. I really appreciate this. Listen, before you go, let the listeners know again about the refuge, how they can get in touch, and maybe how they can support as well.

Sure. Awesome. Yeah. So thank you, Kwame. I really, really appreciate the opportunity to talk with you. Really value our friendship and really impressed. And with what you've done, it's pretty awesome, man.

Thanks.

So the refuge, again, is a. It's a men's addiction program based in Columbus, Ohio. We are a 13 month residential program is completely free because we don't think that money should be a barrier for surviving living a life that's life like living a life with purpose. The best way to get a hold of the refuge is to go to our website@therealfugeohio.org so t h e refuge r e f u g e ohio.org that's where most of the information, the most important information is and give us a call. If you know anybody who is trapped by addiction, please reach out for help. You are not alone in this. I bet most of the people around you know someone who is trapped by addiction and there is hope for their future. I promise. I see it every day. It is an exciting, difficult life, but it is something you can do. We have to do with each other.

So this is great. Austin, thanks again for joining us and thanks again for your awesome work.

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