How To Improve Communication Skills With Judge Laurel Beatty Blunt

Hello, my friends, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. This show is produced by the American Negotiation Institute and with over 5 million downloads and listeners in over 180 countries, listeners just like you have made this the number one negotiation podcast in the world. Hi, my name is Kwame Christian and I am the founder and CEO of the American Negotiation Institute here at A&I we believe that the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations, and we are passionate about providing you with the best content that will help you to make your difficult conversations easier, both at work and at home. Lastly, I want to remind you that we offer consulting and conduct trainings both virtually and in person all around the world. Our focus is in three main areas. First, negotiation and conflict resolution. Second, leadership and lastly, diversity, equity, and inclusion. Check the link in the description below to learn more about how we could work with you and your team. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Laurel, thanks for joining us today.

Thank you for having me.

Yes, it is great to have you, my friend. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Okay, so I have been a judge since 2009. From 2009 to 2019, I was a judge in the Franklin County Court of Common Pleas, General Division. So my jurisdiction was civil matters where the amount in dispute was over $15,000. So when I took the bench, it was in the middle of the foreclosure crisis. So I had a lot of foreclosure cases. I had everything from those foreclosures to medical malpractice to a case about millions of dollars in gold coins at the bottom of the ocean. Then on the criminal side, I felony criminal cases. So those cases were anything from receiving stolen property all the way to the very serious offenses of things like rape and murder. And so I was doing a lot of hearings, conducting a lot of conferences with attorneys, and actually had quite a bit of experience dealing with juries. And then I ran for election and was elected to the 10th District Court of Appeals, where I now have jury jurisdiction over every type of case in Franklin County. So now I have domestic, I have adult and juvenile criminal, I have probate, I have administrative appeals, I have things from municipal court. So it runs the gamut. So it's given me quite a bit of experience with oral and written advocacy.

That's fantastic. And thank you for your service. It's very impressive. We appreciate that. And we appreciate you taking some time to spend with us on this. So today we're going to talk about the state of communication. And so we're obviously both. I'm a lawyer, you're a judge, so we're coming at it from the legal perspective. But given my experience in the business world too, I'm going to extrapolate that as well to the business world too. So let's just open up the conversation with this simple question. In your perspective, what is the state of communication today?

I think today, although I'm optimistic for the future, I think that we have gone backwards in many ways with the advent of COVID just rocking our system and the use of electronics to communicate primarily, and less face to face interaction. We see people doing things that they wouldn't ordinarily do. That you see a lot of what I like to call keyboard courage. It's what people are not fearful to type, but would never say in face to face conversation.

Yes, no, I see that a lot. Especially if you make the mistake of frequenting comment sections online.

Absolutely.

But the problem is we're starting to see that same level of vitriol in actual professional interactions. So let's go a little bit deeper. So when you talk about keyboard courage, can you give us a couple of specific examples of what that would look like in the legal setting when they're talking to people in colleagues or clients or judges even?

Well, for example, remember resolving a discovery dispute among two lawyers where they had been trading some pretty aggressive jabs on email and one of them was sending their emails in all capital letters in yellow font, which is just unkind to the eye. And so I would bet that if those lawyers thought that they were going to see each other sometime soon or even regularly, that may not have been the case. As to the yellow font, as to the capital letters, and as to the substance of the email, because in our polarized society in communicating this way, we have all forgotten sometimes how to persuade and all we are doing is just arguing and trying to batter home our point, which isn't going to convince a judge, it's not going to convince another lawyer, it's not going to convince another citizen. Many, many times. Because bullying is one of the least effective ways to communic and to persuade.

Absolutely. And when you think about the distinction between persuasion and argumentation, can you tease that out a little bit more for the audience?

I would say the difference, at least from a judge's standpoint, persuasion is much more intellectual versus emotional, and particularly in the law, it tends not to have a lot of emotion in it.

So.

But that also brings into a Focus, Kwame. That we also have to know who we're talking to. Because when you're talking to a judge, when you're talking to a client, you might want to use more intellect and emotion, whereas if you're talking to a jury, you don't want to hang your hat on emotion, but you may use your tone of voice, certain words, to convey and rouse up some emotion in order to persuade.

Absolutely. Yeah. And that reminds me of the. The old school Greek rhetoricians. Right. You have the. We have ethos, logos and pathos talking about how to create a persuasive argument. So we have ethics, we have logic, we have passion. And you need a little bit of all to be really persuasive. And that's especially true with the jury and the judge. Sorry, with the jury. Right. But then when you're talking to a judge in, for example, a bench trial, trying to stir up emotions in the judge probably isn't as effective, I would assume.

No, no, we really don't appreciate it because, you know, we're like, stick to the law. You know, this. That's our job. That's what we do all day, every day. So, you know, you trying to rouse up my emotions, you know, is it really going to do anything?

Yeah. And I think that's a really important point for us to recognize here, is that there's no one size fits all approach to persuasion. And so the way that you persuade a judge is going to be different from the way that you persuade a jury. But then even within the judge, the bench, it's not a monolith. Right. The way you persuade this judge might be different from the way that you persuade that judge.

Right.

To that point, even though the judges are going to be focused on the law, what different nuances have you seen people use when it comes to persuading one judge versus another based on what they know of the judge's background?

One thing I've seen several times is the use of technology. We have a shift going on in all areas in every profession in that the baby boomers are leaving and Gen Xers and millennials are coming in. I don't think that baby boomers don't like technology, but I do think that Gen Xers, millennials, Gen Z, Gen Y, expect technology, and so it becomes a tool to persuade us.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think also recognizing that generational divide with especially like the youngest generation coming into the office, it's not just that they expect it and not just that they prefer it, but for some of them, they almost take it as offensive or annoying or just incredibly inconvenient. If you actually want to talk using.

Words, yes, face to face interaction is not what they want to do. But at the same time, Kwame, I would even say I am a part of Gen X and we are. We accepted. I told you so. Do this because I told you to do it. These, the younger people below me, they do not. They are not that generation. They are not going to accept that. And so in order to persuade them, we have to take different tactics. You have to know who you're talking to.

Absolutely. And let's do a bit of a minor shift here to some war stories that kind of exemplify some of the challenges that you've seen when it comes to communication, effective communication and persuasive communication in your role. Does your company invest in professional development training? If you believe that your team would benefit from a negotiation workshop, all you need to do is go to our website, fill out the workshop request form, and then we'll set up a time to chat. These workshops are completely customizable and we've done them all around the country. Negotiation and conflict resolution skills are beneficial across all professions, but they're especially useful in procurement, purchasing, sales, sourcing and contract management. Our calendar is filling up quickly and we even have some workshops scheduled for next year if you think you might find want one, I'd suggest reaching out soon so you don't miss out. Check out the link in the description to learn more and we will be right back after this.

So like we were saying before, I will give you an example of what not to do. I remember during said foreclosure crisis, I was requiring that the bank show that they had original documents and that a affidavit was signed by the attorney saying that the defendant was not active duty military. And not all judges were doing that. So there was one lawyer in particular just given my staff attorney the blues. And you know, she was a very assertive woman. But it got to the point where she said she didn't feel that she could do anything else. So I got on the phone and the lawyer proceeds to tell me how he had been practicing for 36 years and he went to the University of Michigan Law School. And he had never had anyone required to fill out these documents or to provide the other ones. And so I had to think about how I was communicating because I did not want to fulfill any potential stereotypes about young black women. I was 34 at the time. So I had to take a, take a beat and think about what I was going to say. And ultimately I just said to him, sir, I appreciate that you've been practicing for two years longer than I've been alive. I also appreciate that you went to the University of Michigan Law School. My brother went there. It's a very good law school. But while I am the judge in 6B, this is how we're going to do it. And I will be in office until. And I gave him the year to let him know how long that process was going to be in place, despite where he went to law school and how long he'd been practicing. Now I will say, Kwame, my gut reaction was that ego, you know, was to say, no, I'm a judge. This is how I want it. This is how it's going to be. But, you know, I could not do that. That was not going to be effective. It was not going to leave a good impression. Because at the end of the day, I still have to remember that I'm elected. And then also, it doesn't set a good tone for other young black women that were coming after me.

Absolutely.

The other part is people. And this is another experience from the bench. Lawyers that come in, they do not get a sense of whether the judge has actually read anything about the case or not. So I always highly prepared for my hearings. Hearings were meant to get my questions answered. They were not for the lawyers to tell me about the case. So there were several times where lawyers, even though I was communicating that I knew about the case, they were using their time not to persuade me, but to tell me something that I told them I already knew. And then also not listening to my questions and answering my questions not with the answers, but with what they wanted me to know. So especially, you know, in Franklin County, Ohio, a judge's time, 75% of the docket is civil cases, 75% of the time is spent on criminal cases. So particularly if you are a civil attorney, you have to use your time wisely to persuade. You can't use your persuasion time to tell me what I already know, and you can't use your persuasion time not to answer my questions.

This is great. All right, so let's go through these two examples. So let's go back to the one with the attorney that was very proud of his Michigan degree.

Yes.

So in that situation, let's actually break this down, because what he wanted in that moment was respect. He felt as though, because of his years on the bench and his high academic pedigree, that he knows what he's doing. And a lot of times that desire that, to overcompensate because of the ego, I'll call it ego on his part is because he's like, I'm unfamiliar with this situation. I don't like the way that I feel. I'm, I. I'm a little bit insecure with the fact that I feel like a fish out of water now. This doesn't. This is not what I'm used to. But I want everybody to know that I know what I'm talking about, and I'm a person of value. And so he overcompensated in that situation. And so if you would have approached it by saying, hey, no, this is my bench. I am the judge. You have to do it my way, then that would have been you trying to reclaim that power in that interaction by force, right? And so he would have responded by force and say, oh, I need to up my ego a little bit in response. And then it would have just been an ever escalating back and forth. But instead what you did is you calmed him down by saying, hey, I'm going to acknowledge it. And so on the podcast, we always talk about the compassionate curiosity framework. Acknowledge and validate emotions, get curious with compassion and joint problem solving. And you did, number one, really well. You recognize that he was searching for validation based on his experience and his knowledge, and you gave him that in your response. So you gave him a healthy feeding of the ego. Not an over. Not overfeeding, but a healthy feeding to let him know, hey, you don't need to show me how amazing you are. I see you. I see you. And now since you've given him that, then you say, and now I need you to see me. And that's how you were able to defuse a potentially explosive situation there.

I agree. I think the ego can be so dangerous, though, Kwame, because in my mind, he. His ego made him lose sight of his goal. Because whether he liked filling out these documents or not, or whether he did not, whether he felt disrespected, his ultimate goal should have been to serve his client. And in the initial part of our conversation, he let his ego possibly get in the way of his ultimate goal of serving his client. You know, that could have gone. Had I responded differently, that could have gone really wrong. And then also in the way I communicated to him, I also had to remember that there it was not necessary for my ego to kick in to persuade him, because at the beginning and the end of that day, I was still going to be the decision maker. Do you see what I mean, and so there was just. No. There was no point in even doing that.

Absolutely. Yeah. And it makes you think, too, just this simple thing, because like you said, he lost sight of his goal and made essentially inflating his own ego his goal in that moment. And so one of the things I've started to do, to kind of check myself, because so I know I have an ego, and sometimes it can get in the way. And so some of the time what I say is, hey, what purpose does that serve in this conversation when I'm about to say something? Especially when it comes fast, Because I'm saying, usually if I'm very quick to respond, the first thing I'm going to say is the wrong answer. Right. So I slow down and I say.

Those knee jerks, Kwame, oftentimes end up putting your foot in your mouth.

Exactly, exactly. And I might say something and say to myself, oh, that felt good, but I am now losing at this moment. Yes. It's so true. And I tell you, the. The ego can get in the way, so just slowing down is going to be important. And I remember you told me a story about a time where somebody was very disrespectful to you, and you took up to, like, two minutes in silence before responding. Can. Can you tell that story, too?

I did. It was an attorney who spent quite a bit of time. I don't want to give anything away because I don't want him to be able to be identified, but he spent quite a bit of time in another time zone, in a. In a very warm area, in another time zone several months out of the year. And so he wanted me to set something in the afternoon to accommodate the fact that he was in a time zone five hours behind us. And I told him I could not do that because I had carved out time in the morning for his case, and the rest of my day I was going to be in trial. So he. He proceeded to pretty aggressively insult me and tell me how no other judge in the courthouse has ever questioned him. They've all accommodated him, which I also found that hard to believe. But this attorney I had had some difficult interactions with previously several times just during the course of that case. And, you know, I was in a very serious trial. And so I. After he went on his tirade, and it was a tirade, I sat there and I just let several different inappropriate responses that honestly had expletives in them go through my head, because I can't do that. I can't say those things. And then I just Looked up, and I calmly responded to him. Your insults are not persuasive.

Oh.

And then I said, is there anything further, counsel? And then the hearing was over.

That is so brilliant. That's so brilliant. What, like five words?

Yes.

You shut it down. This is incredible. Okay, so let's break this down, because there's a lot here. So what message did it send to him that you were willing to take that much time in silence? What message do you think that's sent to him and everybody observing?

Oh, I will tell you, Kwame, when a judge. When it gets quiet in a courtroom, it's almost like when it gets quiet on tv, it's heavy. It's heavy, heavy, heavy. And I was just trying to get myself through the situation. But looking back, it probably was pretty effective because so many people are uncomfortable just generally with silence. But I was just trying to get myself through, but it sent. You know, everyone was. Was on the edge of their seats, like, what is she going to say? And then it was like a mic drop. And the mic dropped and broke.

Mm. Yes. Okay, let's get a little philosophical here. So this is. This is going to sound really off topic, but. But stay with me. So in the animal kingdom, when the males are trying to impress the different female animals, one of the things that they do is, especially when they are typically prey, they show themselves to be stronger by kind of making themselves a little bit vulnerable. It's like, hey, usually we're hiding, but I am out and about because I am so strong. You should mate with me. Right. So the reality is here, in this situation, like you said, most people, the vast majority of people, are incredibly uncomfortable with silence. They will make. They would prefer to make a mistake and say the wrong thing than feel that tension and pressure that comes with silence.

Yes.

And so for you to be the person who created that silence, who held that silence and made everybody else feel uncomfortable while you were sitting in it and holding that time, that is an incredible display of power and strength, because most people aren't willing to sit there and feel that. But it's a sign of mental and emotional fortitude that you are willing to do that. And then, because in that moment when somebody insults you, they will want a fight. They're trying to get you to fight them. Right. And we have to think about need. The person who needs the deal more is the person who's losing, the person who has left less leverage. Right. And so in that situation, the neediness that he was feeling was for a fight. I want that emotional release of A toe to toe battle with the judge here. And what you did was you showed again that you have the power. I'm not going to fight you because that's what you want. And I am holding back that which you want to show you who is in control. Is there anything else? You may leave my presence.

Yes, exactly. And it set the tone for the rest of the day.

Yeah.

You know, anybody else that was in the courtroom, it actually spread through the courthouse, from what I understand. You know, you consider I, at the time, I was on a court with 17 judges, so that was a lot of court runes to get through.

Yeah. That is impressive. And again, I think it demonstrates that sometimes the most persuasive thing that you say doesn't need to be very wordy. Doesn't be very much.

Right. Because in my also, I couldn't lose sight of my goal, Kwame. My goal was to have good control of my courtroom. And so had I engaged in a fight with him, in a sense, that's losing control of your courtroom.

Yep.

And losing it can lead to you losing control of yourself, too.

Absolutely.

And it's just not a good look for a judge. I mean, we're the judge. We're supposed to be. Yes, we are supposed to be, you know, the neutral referee person, but we're also supposed to be the person that's making sure everything is going as it should so that people feel that, you know, their case was decided, say, on the merits versus, you know, their lawyer has now made the judgment.

Absolutely, Absolutely. Oh, that's a great example to end on. And before you go, what is one piece of advice that you'd give the listeners when it comes to being more persuasive?

In general, I think you can never forget who the decision maker is. Never forget what your goal is, because if you don't forget what your goal is, you won't allow things to distract you from it. And then also, I think that kindness is always the best way to go about it. The old saying about getting more bees with honey than vinegar or whatever it is. It is. It is just true. And I think that that applies to whether you're talking to persuade your spouse or to persuade a client to use your services.

100%. I love it. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for taking the time to spend with us and sharing your wisdom.

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Kwame, congratulations. You've just joined an elite club by listening to a full episode. You're now officially on the Negotiate Anything team. So welcome aboard. What most team members do is they subscribe to the podcast because that allows them to automatically get the latest episodes of the show. The best things in life lie on the other side of difficult conversations. Keep learning, keep practicing, and keep getting better. Your relationships will improve, your career will soar, and you'll have the confidence you need to get the most out of these crucial conversations. Again, thank you for joining the team. We're excited to have you, and I will see you in the next episode. I'll catch you later.