How to Manage and Resolve Conflict with Cheyanne Cierpial

Hello, my friends, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. Negotiate Anything is produced by the American Negotiation Institute, and with over 3 million downloads and listeners in over 180 countries, listeners just like you have made this the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm Kwame Christian and I'm the director of the American Negotiation Institute. We're growing, and I want to introduce you to our new team members and new trainers. And this will help to give you new diverse perspectives on negotiation and conflict resolution. That's why I'm excited to let you know that Shane Martin, our head of sales and partnerships, is going to serve as co host of the show. From time to time, we are passionate about providing you with the best content that will help to make your difficult conversations easier, both at work and at home. Lastly, before we get into the episode, I want to remind you that our team conducts negotiation and conflict resolution trainings in the United States and abroad. Our trainings will give you the practical skills you need to resolve conflict, negotiate, lead, and persuade with confidence. Click the link in the description below to learn how we can help to make your difficult conversations easier. And now, let's get to the show. Cheyenne, thanks for joining us today.

Hello. Thank you so much for having me. It's great to be here.

Absolutely. It's our pleasure to have you. So how about you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?

Sure. I am a writer and strategist, and I'm currently leading marketing for the center for Operational Excellence. We are housed within the Ohio State University Fisher College of Business. So we are a center. It's really a business consortium of about 30 member companies, most of which are located around Ohio. We've been around for about 30 years. And really our goal is to connect organizations of all industries on their journey to build and sustain a culture of problem solving and continuous improvement. So, you know, the world is changing and so is the work we do and the roles that we have. And this. This culture of continuous learning and this cycle of relentless process improvement is more important now than ever. So we work with our member organizations in a variety of ways. You know, we connect them with one another. If they are, you know, coming to us saying, we're having this really big problem, we can't figure this out. And we can connect them with some of our other member companies that are maybe doing that one area really well. We connect them with all of the resources that Ohio State has to offer. So professors, students, new research projects. We're able to sort of Connect the companies to the academic side. And then really our bread and butter is hosting events. So we do about 30 events a year right now. They've all been virtual. So we're hosting about two webinars a month on a variety of topics. So I think people hear operational excellence and they think Lean, Six Sigma and manufacturing, but that's really just an umbrella term that can encompass so many things. So we do a ton of programming on diversity and inclusion, the future of work, supply chains, change management, and really the list goes on. We have our upcoming CoE summit, which is our big event every year that's open to the public, which you are speaking at. You are one of our four keynote speakers. So that will be held virtually April 6th and 7th, and that is our only event that's really open to the public. So you do not have to be a member of the center to attend. And we'll have four keynotes, 10 breakout sessions, some networking, discussion rooms, entertainment, just two full days of learning and content. So that's sort of a shameless plug, but that's who I am and what I do and all about our center.

Yeah, this is really great. And I think for a lot of our listeners, this is an exciting opportunity because with our trainings at the American Negotiation Institute, it's companies or organizations or events that bring us in to do a training. But we don't, other than the online course, we don't have anything that's directly training individuals. But now this is one of those rare opportunities where you can see me speak live, even though your company did not bring me in or it wasn't an event that brought me in. And there's a bonus multiple bonuses. You get to hear from other great speakers as well. So I think this is a really great deal. And everybody, there will be links to this program, this event, in the description of this episode. So make sure you check that out and see if you can make it happen. We'd love to have you.

Yeah, we would love to have any of your listeners attend. It's a great opportunity to hear you speak. Like you said, you're speaking on like your true specialty, finding confidence in conflict. So it'll be a great. It'll be a great opportunity to hear you speak.

So, listeners, today you are in for a treat because this is a reverse interview. Cheyenne is actually going to be interviewing me on topics that are adjacent to the keynote that I'm going to be giving at the event. So we're going to talk about communication, conflict resolution, persuasion, and the future of work and yeah, I'm excited for this. So, Cheyenne, you are the host. Go ahead and take it away.

Sure. So I'm going to start off with a personal question. I'm so interested to know how you got into this specialty. What about conflict management and negotiation appeals to you and where did that come from?

Yeah, that is a great question. And I get asked this question a lot because it's a unique type of professional direction that I've taken this. So I'm a recovering people pleaser. I'm not afraid to say it. I'm a recovering people pleaser. And so for me, this journey of negotiation, self advocacy, conflict resolution, all of these things, it really started from my personal journey, learning how to overcome people pleasing. And so for me, I discovered in law school this negotiation course. And it was the first time that I saw my love of psychology, my undergrad degrees in psychology. It was the first time I saw my love of psychology kind of displayed for a legal purpose in a way that was really clear to me. So I was really fascinated. And so I was learning more about these negotiation techniques and I started to take advantage of some of these opportunities to practice. We had these practice sessions during the course and I really enjoyed them. I started to do well in them. And then we had these negotiation competitions for the school. And so my buddy and I, we participated in that. And we ended up actually winning the negotiation competition for Ohio State's law school. And that allowed us to represent the school at the regional negotiation competition for the American Bar association in Ottawa, Ontario. And we won that competition as well. And then we made it to the national competition of the American Bar association negotiation competition. And we made it to the semis. And so after that, I was hook. I was really hooked, Cheyenne, because this was a eureka moment for me because it was the first time that I realized that the ability to advocate for yourself was a skill, not a talent. Through practice, you can get better. And it was eye opening. And it really ties closely to our foundational principle at the American Negotiation Institute. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. So whether it's business or personal, to a large extent, your happiness and sadness, success and failure, is going to be predicated upon how well or how poorly you have these conversations. And so for me, my passion comes from the fact that I know what my life was before having this skill and what it is now after having the skill. And so for me, every day, it's just an honor to be able to help guide people as they improve this skill. Themselves. And our goal is to help people to live the best versions of their life at work and at home. And that's really what drives me.

I love that. That's great. I think when people hear negotiation, probably not your listeners, but a lot of people think just of salary negotiations at the start of a job or going through a divorce and mediation, but really every day there's so many small negotiations that are going on. So I love the work that you do. And I also studied psychology in my undergrad degree and English. So I love the intersection of the human brain and how we communicate. I think that's so important. So thinking about a few things. So our COE summit, we sort of have a theme this year or a tagline, and it's Operational Excellence through a New Lens. And to me, what that really means is we're looking at the topics we've looked at for years, but what's worked in the past isn't necessarily working in the present. What's working now isn't necessarily going to work in the future. So how can we bring a reflective piece to these topics and really think about how we move forward in this new normal, which, whatever that means, I think it's a buzzword. I don't know if there's ever going to be a new normal. When we think of conflict management, when we think of negotiation, when we think about communication, what about those things are going to help bring us into this new future? What kind of skills do we need in those areas for this new world of work?

Well, I think what we have to do is we have to recognize that these conversations, they are unavoidable, difficult conversations are going to happen regardless of whether we want them to or not. So these skills are going to be necessary in the future, regardless of which direction the future goes. The other thing is that as things as we're changing, as organizations are changing, as cultures are changing, as cultures within organizations are changing, it's going to create a lot of ambiguity. And the only way that we can navigate that ambiguity is through clarity of communication. And we have to have people who are confident enough in their skills to actually lean in and have these difficult conversations so we can navigate that ambiguity and still connect and collaborate, even though we are in the midst of massive change. So the way I see it, Cheyenne, is that we're essentially renegotiating all of these things within our professional lives. We're renegotiating the company cultures, we're renegotiating the company structures, we're renegotiating the policies and Procedures that apply to this new world of work that we're finding. And the only way that we can be successful and maintain solid relationships is if we have these difficult conversations. These skills are more important now than ever before. Does your company invest in professional development training? If you believe that your team would benefit from a negotiation workshop, all you need to do is go to our website, fill out the workshop request form, and then we'll set up a time to chat. These workshops are completely customizable, and we've done them all around the country. Negotiation and conflict resolution skills are beneficial across all professions, but they're especially useful in procurement, purchasing, sales, sourcing, and contract management. Our calendar is filling up quickly, and we even have some workshops scheduled for next year if you think you might want one. I'd suggest reaching out soon so you don't miss out. Check out the link in the description to learn more. And now back to the show.

Yeah, that's such a great point. I think I was thinking about this interview beforehand, and I was really thinking about the great resignation as we keep hearing it. We're hearing it from a lot of our members. We're hearing it in the news and in the media. We're hearing this term all the time. And I was really thinking about it, and I use that exact term. It really is just a renegotiation in a lot of ways between the workforce and companies, between the way we've worked in the past and the way we're gonna work in the future. And really society as a whole, it's a cultural shift. So I'm gonna ask a question that I know our audience would. Would ask if, if, you know, during your keynote, probably they will as well, which you're going to give us some great practical tips for having these conversations. But there's one big conflict that we keep hearing about over and over again and what we're seeing and that. And that's the return to work. Right? So some organizations are totally back in the office, some are not. Some think we should be virtual forever. Some think that we have to go back to brick and mortar. Some are comfortable in the middle of the what advice do you have for navigating that conversation? Both as an employee who maybe says, I've been working from home for two years. It's flexible. I love it. I've hit all my KPIs. Why do I need to come back? And maybe a leader who's saying, no, this is important to our culture. We are not going to move forward as a flexible organization or a hybrid Organization, we need you back in person. How do we even start that conversation on the 1 to 1 level, on the larger level, all the things, yeah.

This is something that a lot of companies are struggling with. And quite frankly, it is something that we are struggling with at the American Negotiation Institute because it's something that affects everybody. We have to figure out what this transition is going to be. Again, going back to what I said before, this is that ambiguity. This is uncharted territory. There is no policy or procedure that we've been following for 10 years that can tell us specifically what to do in this situation. So again, this is an example of that renegotiation. And so here what I want to do is I want to focus people on simplifying the process. Because this is something that's very emotional coming back to work after a pandemic or during a pandemic, however you want to phrase it, it's tough. It is very tough and it can be overwhelming. So I want to simplify it first. And so what we need to do is we need to focus on two things. We need to focus on clarity and compassion. Clarity and compassion. So with clarity, we have to think about one of the main goals here is to get clarity. We want to make sure that everybody in the company is completely aware and understands what the policy is and why. That is our ultimate goal. Now, whether or not what the decision ends up being is going to be different for different companies, it's different for different people. Right. So I'm not here trying to say I have the right answer. We should do it this way. No, it's going to be different for different companies. But what I want people to focus on is that at the end of the process, there should be clarity. People should be able to figure out what the decision is and what that means for them. So that should be a quintessential element of the goal of these discussions about how we return to work. Now, moving on to compassion, we need to be empathetic to the people who are going through this because regardless of whether or not we agree the people, everybody involved in this is going to be impacted in a significant way. And people care about this issue for different reasons in different ways. And so if we just focus on trying to figure out what the right decision is and what the answer is going to be and how we publicize that to the team and all that stuff, but we don't do it compassionately if we don't take the time to be empathetic, if we don't take the time to show people that we care. We're going to miss an important part of the process. And one of the things I always say is conflict is an opportunity. Conflict is an opportunity. And here it is an opportunity to get a clear answer, to understand what we need to do to move forward, those type of things. I think that's the obvious side, but it's also an opportunity here to connect with the colleagues that we work alongside with. So it's very important for us to take this as an opportunity to show each other that we care. And we do that by listening and actually engaging in the dialogue in a meaningful way. This is tough. This is tough and it's tough for everybody. But this is part of that renegotiation that we were talking about before. So it needs to happen. And I encourage people to have these conversations. But clarity and compassion, those are two elements that need to be involved in the process. And then the last thing I'd say is this too. We also have to negotiate for the decision making process. How is the decision going to be made? Is it going to be a completely top down process? Is it going to be democratic? Which I believe is good for countries and nations, but not so good for organizations? You know, how are you going to make the decision that needs to be negotiated amongst the leadership and that needs to be clearly articulated to the company as well. So those are the things that I think people need to keep in mind as we renegotiate this return to work.

Yeah, I think that makes so much sense. I've done a lot of work in change communications and I think you're hitting on something that overlaps there, which is, you know, sometimes we have a change, not everyone's going to love it. I mean, a lot of us aren't, especially in the beginning. But the more you can communicate and help, help your audience get there, why we made this decision, walk us through that process. Lay everything out, lay the good stuff and the bad stuff out. Here's how it's going to affect you and here's the negative pieces of that. And we're going to call it what it is and not try to like, you know, make it all smiles and rainbows. I think people feel so much more comfortable, less focused on the outcome, but more on the process. So on that note, I think conflict can be really good, which I think I've said. But how do you know when and why conflict is good versus how do you know when it's bad? And I don't mean bad in the sense of intimidating or difficult, but Bad in the sense of unhelpful. We're not getting anywhere. We've sort of hit this stalemate. We're not achieving this. How do you differentiate that? And how do you know, you know when to walk away from that or what do you do in those situations when. When it's not helpful?

Yeah, this is a really great question. And so I think it's important to distinguish between productive and unproductive conversations. And whether or not a conversation is productive or unproductive depends completely on what your goals are. So going into a conversation, you have to be very clear with yourself and with the other person with regard to what you hope to accomplish in the conversation. Because if you don't have a destination, then there's way to know whether or not you're on the wrong path. That's the first thing. And so for me, there, there are two strategies that I employ if I'm realizing that a conversation is trending toward being unproductive. Strategy number one, I try to adjust my approach in order to make the conversation a bit more productive. Strategy number two, I end the conversation. So this is a really. It's a tough situation because we know sometimes when we are stuck in a conversation that has become unproductive. But a lot of times we overthink what it takes to turn an unproductive conversation into a productive conversation or just find a productive use for your time. I think that might be a better way to think about it. So let's start off with adjusting my approach. If a conversation is becoming unproductive, usually it's because we are reaching impasse. We are trying to move in a specific direction, and for whatever reason, we are not progressing. So that might be because one or both of us have become emotional and the emotions at play are creating a barrier to progress. It might be because we are not understanding each other and our lack of clear communication is creating a barrier to progress. Whatever it happens to be, we have to figure out what that problem is and change our approach. So here's a simple example. So let's say we've reached impasse. We're trying to talk about three different things, and we're stuck on thing number one. Okay, well, what I'm going to do is I'm going to say to myself, well, you know, it seems like we're stuck on number one. Number two and three are still very important. So I'm going to pause the conversation on number one. And now I'm going to start talking about two and three in order to see if I can Generate some positive momentum, and then we can circle back to thing number one. So this is what it could look like in practical application. Well, Cheyenne, it seems as though we're getting a little bit stuck. And what I think might be helpful is if we start talking about this other issue right now. Let's talk about that. And then let's circle back to number one after we've made a little bit of progress on number two. Does that work for you? And then you might say, well, no, I really want to focus. I will have some more things to say about number one. Then I might say, hey, okay, let me know those other things. And then we can move on to number two and come back. Right. That's the way that I would approach it. Now, in the other situation, let's say it's an unproductive conversation and I want to end it. The key here is to end it in a way where you don't seem like a jerk and you end it in a way where both of you are able to save face. So you are allowing both parties, both you and the other party, to end the conversation in a way that allows you to leave with your dignity and self respect intact. So you don't want to end the conversation because. And make it seem like you are scared or you're weak or incompetent or anything like that, because I know that's a lot of people's fears and you don't want to make the other person feel any of those negative emotions either with the way that the conversation is ending. So this is how you do it. What I would do is I would say, Cheyenne, I think we made a lot of progress in this conversation and I really appreciate you talking to me today. And so this is a very clear signal that I have come to the end of this conversation. So we're priming them with that. That subtle signal. But before we go, Cheyenne, I want to let you. I want to see if there's anything else that you want to say. And I'll give you the floor because I don't want it to seem like I don't want to listen to you. I want the person to always feel heard. And so for the rest of the conversation, I'll just give them the floor. So I'd listen to you, and then I'd summarize what you would say using the empathy loop. Cheyenne, correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you're saying X, Y and Z. Is that a fair synopsis? Okay, great. Is there anything else you'd like to say. And then you might say, well, Kwame, what do you think about that? Almost encouraging me to re engage in the conversation. And so what I would say is, well, honestly, Cheyenne, you've given me a lot to think about and I want to have some time to process this. I think it'd be best for us to circle back and come back tomorrow and finish up the conversation. But if there's anything else you want to say, I'm still here to listen to you. So again, we're showing respect. We're showing respect by letting them know that we still care about what it is that they're saying and what their problems are. But we're also standing firm in the fact that we don't have anything else to add to the conversation at this moment. So I think that's a really strong way to end a conversation in a respectful way so everybody can leave saving face and then we could restart those negotiations at a later date.

Yeah, yeah, I have nothing to add to that. That is just very eloquent and great. You are certainly the expert on it. So in those situations or even as you walk into any negotiation or conflict, you know, how do you know what options you have? How do you maybe erase some of that fear? I mean, don't give away all the secret sauce here, but how do you sort of know or get out of that mindset where you feel like the other person has the control or the power?

Yeah, that's a great question. And so when it comes down to power, one of the best ways to improve your power is through preparation. And I know the listeners of the podcast are going to say, oh man, I know what Kwame is going to say next. And you're right, that's exactly what I'm going to say. I am going to tell you about all of our free guides. So if you go to americannegotiationinstitute.com guide, you can get access to all of our free negotiation guides. How to prepare for your negotiation, how to negotiate as an introvert, how to negotiate for your next salary, those type of things. If you are more prepared at the negotiation table, it's going to make you feel more powerful and confident during your negotiations. This is really important. So even though in this case I know we're talking about power as it relates to workplace centered conversations, I think it's really helpful if we start to think about power through the lens of traditional negotiation because they they're more or less going to be the same. And it might be easier to see in traditional Negotiation. And so when it comes to power at the negotiation table, one of the strongest sources of power comes from your alternatives. More specifically, your batna, which is your best alternative to a negotiated agreement. So, Cheyenne, it's really pretty simple when you think about it. If we're having a negotiation and what you're offering me at the negotiation table isn't better than my other alternative away from the negotiation table, I can simply say no, because I know that without your help, I can just choose something else. It's like a salary negotiation. If you're offering me $200,000 and somebody else is offering me $300,000, I can negotiate with you pretty confidently and say no to your offer and ask you to do better. Because I already know that I have an offer for 300,000. Right. So your alternatives are going to be a major source of power. And so one of the things that this highlights is the fact that you can improve your performance at the negotiation table by making moves away from the negotiation table. And so if you are at work and you're having a conversation and you don't feel like you have a lot of power, it's usually because you don't have good options. And so what you need to do before these conversations in your preparation, think about some potential alternative solutions other than the person right in front of you. Because if I'm negotiating with you, Cheyenne, and I know you're my best option, that means I need you. That means I need you. And there's an old saying. In negotiation, the person who needs the deal the most loses. Because if I feel like I need you, I'm going to keep on compromising in order to get what you are willing to give me. And that's not a good place to be. So thinking strategically about how you can get better options before you even enter the negotiation is going to be a really important source of power coming into the negotiation. The other thing is there's within an organization, there's going to be power through hierarchy. And that's just the reality. You have to respect rank. Somebody might outrank you, and their power might purely come through authority. And so what you need to do is you need to find your unique source of power. How have you made yourself indispensable over your time there? What unique information do you have or expertise do you have? Remember that going into those conversations because a lot of times we forget. And so we need to remind ourselves of our value going into it, but we also have to give subtle signs of our value to the other people as well. And so you can respect their power while still being true to your power and letting them know that you have power as well. So here's an example of how you can do that. So let's say you and your manager aren't really on the same page with this decision that's being made or the path forward for the department. So in that situation, one of the easiest ways that you can signal your power through information is by saying something like this. Actually, that's a really good point. And I thought the same thing. And then I spent a few hours yesterday doing a lot of research and talking to other people in the organization. And this is what I found. And what I did there is subtle but really powerful because you might be. So essentially what you're saying is, listen, I respect where you're coming from, but you also have to remember I'm the person who's the boots on the ground. I did this research, I did more research. And so that should add to the credibility of what I'm saying. Again, it's subtle, but it does help to rebalance the power dynamics in a conversation if somebody outranks you, but you feel as though you've done the research and you might know more than them in this specific situation. So really what it comes down to is preparation, making sure that you are taking a surveying the playing field and understanding who needs what and also finding unique and creative ways to meet your needs other than the conversation right in front of you. Because again, when you are creative, you're creating more options and the more paths to victory you have, the more likely you are to achieve a victory. And so that creativity is a really unique form of power as well. I think people often over emphasize the negotiation tools at the negotiation table, like the tactics and approach that you actually use during the conversation. Say this, don't say that, those type of things, those matter, those matter. But we have to consider the things that we can do away from the negotiation table to rebalance the power as well. So I think all of those things are important as it relates to power dynamics in these conversations. I think it often helps to think about the negotiation table in a literal type of way. And a great book on this topic is called Negotiation in three and it talks about the three dimensions of negotiation. So the actual conversation between me and the other person, that's one dimension. But then you also have resetting the table, which talks about creativity and deal structure. And then you also have the moves away from the negotiation table, which is about improving your batna, your best alternative to A negotiated agreement by negotiating with other parties and finding other ways to meet your needs. So an example is sometimes if you don't like the negotiation table, you can reset the table, you know, and so thinking about it in three dimensions helps you to be more creative with the way that you approach it and helps you to find really unique sources of power that'll pay dividends during the negotiation.

Yeah, I wish your listeners could see me, like, viciously shaking my head in agreement and just, you know, mind blown. I love that I have, like, a post it right here and I wrote down, like, resetting the table. I think that that is a really good metaphor. And it. It brings so many thoughts to my head. And it. I think it. Yeah, I'm gonna open a can of worms that we don't have time for, so I'll cut myself off there. So I'm gonna switch it up a little bit with a different question. It's a little bit of a weird one. So you have seen a lot of negotiations. You have participated in a lot of negotiations. I would be intimidated to, like, go up against an expert negotiator. Right. You seem like someone who probably keeps your cool pretty good, or at least on the outside. You've been doing this for a long time. Have what surprised you? Has there been anything that you've seen or stood out to you after all these years that sort of stopped you in your tracks and made you, I don't know, take a step back and rethink some things? I know that's a hard question, so no pressure.

That is a really good question. And the first thing that came to mind for me was consistency, consistency, consistency. Because think about the name of this podcast, Negotiate Anything. We're at over 500 episodes, and the reason I called it Negotiate Anything was because I wanted to show people how ubiquitous negotiation is. We are defining negotiation very broadly. Anytime you're having a conversation with somebody, we are defining that as a negotiation in. At the American Negotiation Institute. It's really that simple. And so what's really been interesting is seeing the consistency of the principles of persuasion and communication in different realms. So we have people who are in procurement and negotiating big deals for companies. We have people who are in diversity, equity, and inclusion who are trying to renegotiate cultures and structures within organizations. We have school teachers, relationship therapists, athletes, coaches, all of these different types of people from different industries and different backgrounds, different experiences, sharing their tools and techniques. And it's so cool to see just how consistent they are in so many diverse domains. And so what's been really fun for me to do is see strategies that would work in one area and bringing it to another area. So for me, as somebody who's done hundreds of mediations, bringing it to a procurement negotiation and saying, hey, actually the conflict that you're experiencing between these two people is somewhat like this. We can use this strategy. Right, because there's consistency there. And what's been interesting is that whether it's a conversation that you have with a loved one or a multi, multimillion dollar deal that you're doing, the psychological principles are the same or less right? Different context, same brain, just in a different location. And so one of the things that's been shocking though, I think is really interesting is that the, the bigger the deal, the more ego that's involved in it in a lot of cases. So if we're helping to consult on a 100 million, 500 million dollar deal, something big like that, what's interesting to me is that a lot of times people's egos will prevent them from seeing their level of emotionality. So somebody might have an ego about their position, their authority and their experience and those type of things. They have ego wrapped up in it and it's wrapped up in the outcome and then it will lead them to be emotional. But they see themselves as high level professionals. So even if they are emotional, they won't admit that the emotion is having an impact on their decision making. Right. And that's really fascinating too because the more ego that's involved, the less willing people are to admit that emotion is involved. And that presents a challenge in these conversations too. But I think really, when I think about the things that's just most surprising is the level of consistency. And I, I think this podcast is great intellectual cross training for our professionals who are listening. Because even if you don't find yourself in these particular situations, you can pull out the underlying principles and find out how it applies to your situation. That, and that's really cool to, to.

Me, yeah, there's so many nuances, but at the same time it's just such a universality that that comes to play that, that really we are all operating with the same structures in our brain, doing the same things, making us feel the same way. That's so interesting what you said about ego. How do we, you know, how do you look at yourself and have a certain level of self awareness to check your own ego? It's easy to see it in other people, right? Like I'm, like you're bringing ego to the table. Like, we need to put that aside. But how do you see it in yourself so that when you're coming to the table for these difficult conversations, you can, you know, you're going to be much more successful at least, you know, in these conversations. If you want to, you know, find this mutual ground or whatever. If you can set that aside. How do you, how do you start to do that.

Cheyenne? It's really hard to do. It's really hard to do. But it comes down to that word that you used, which is self awareness. We have to become more self aware. And as we develop our self awareness, we need to also start to pay attention to patterns because different emotions manifest itself in different ways. And for me, just to keep it simple, I consider ego tantamount to an emotion. It more or less function in this functions in the same way psychologically. And so I need to understand when it is at play. And so I started to pay attention to these patterns. So for instance, okay, okay, my. My stomach starts to hurt. Oh, that's pressure. So at. At a. And I, we're hiring a lot of people and I'm talking to the cfo, I'm. And I'm saying, wait, our payroll is now, what per month are you. Oh my gosh. Okay, now my stomach is starting to hurt. Okay, okay, that's stress. That's pressure. Okay, I understand what that is. Okay. Kwame's angry. Kwame's feeling as though his ego is threatened. I feel that in my shoulders and my chest. That's where I come from, physically feel it. And then another interesting tell for me, Cheyenne, is that when I feel certain emotions like happiness, sadness, disappointment, those type of things, it's not hard for me to own that. But one of the interesting characteristics of me when my ego is inflamed or I start to get angry is I start to deny the fact that I am angry or I'm feeling anything, and so I just won't own it. And so for me, interestingly, me saying I am not feeling any emotion is a sign that I am feeling high levels of emotion, you know, but you just have to be honest with yourself. It's a weird thing, but you know that that is what it is for me and it's going to be different for you. But what's most important is understanding that and understanding what it means. Because in the moment, there's a difference between facts and feelings. But they will feel the same way. And so if you can understand, oh, I'm feeling something, what I'm believing right now might not actually be true. It might be my emotions coloring my, my lived experience in this. Then you can see the world with a much clearer perspective. And that will obviously have significant, a significant impact, positive impact on your ability to navigate these difficult conversations. So I think it really, like I said, comes down to self awareness and being honest with yourself about what you are feeling, why you are feeling it, and what it means for you in this conversation. The other thing that I think is really important here, Cheyenne, is the necessity for perspective. We have a limited ability to see things objectively just because we are biased in different ways. And so sometimes we can see things in others more clearly than we can see it in ourselves. And so, for example, with the consulting work that we do at the American Negotiation Institute, we're working with expert negotiators who are incredibly good at what they do. They don't bring us in because they are bad at negotiation. A lot of times they bring us in because they need a different perspective. And simply because we are coming in with, from that outsider's perspective, we can see things strategically in a different way that helps them to improve their negotiation outcomes. Here's another example. So I am a business owner at the American Negotiation Institute, but I have a business coach who helps me to be a better leader and make better business decisions. But what's funny is that she too has a business coach to help her business, which is a coaching business. Right. Because again, her coach gives her unique perspectives that she can't see because she is simply too close to the problem. And a lot of times we are simply too close. And we need that outside perspective to help us. So it might be getting a consultant, it might be talking to a trusted friend, and it might be being really candid during the conversation or after the conversation and asking the person, how am I making you feel during this conversation? What is it that you think I'm missing in this conversation? Those type of things. Because you'd be surprised with the intel you get when you simply ask for that information too. Because. Because they are seeing you. And sometimes they are. They relish the opportunity to tell you what they see in you. But that's really important too. It can be humbling. It can be really humbling, but it can make you better too. And that's why I think it's important to do it.

If you have not had I'm gonna do a shameless plug. If you have not had Dr. Melissa Burgs Phillips on your show, you need to write her name down and do it. But she is an awesome speaker who's spoken for Coe in the past. But I just attended a talk by her and she was talking about very similar stuff. Just how, you know, she identified these six sort of types of people that you should kind of get that feedback from. The reliable narrator, the person who's going to be a little hard on you and give you definitely some criticism that may or may not be true and sort of how you can identify those types of, you know, feedback and open yourself up for feedback to help increase that self awareness. So she's wonderful, but I totally agree with you on that. Sometimes you just are too close. And yeah, I think we see subjectivity as the negative, negative. Right. And it's not. It's just a fact. We are always going to see the world through our lens and we have to put in a lot of work to open that up and see it through compassion, through empathy, through understanding. So I know we are getting close on time. So I'm going to leave you with another big open ended question. When we think about conflict management, when we think about negotiation, when we think about communication in 2022, is there a question that I should have asked that I didn't ask ask?

Oh, I love that question. When I think about this, I would say that the biggest threat to effective communication today is the unwillingness to engage. People are just afraid to have these difficult conversations. They're afraid of failing, they're afraid of offending somebody, they're afraid of looking silly, they're afraid of being vulnerable and telling it like it is, you know. So whatever it is that's holding people back, it's causing problems. And I think it's getting worse too because we connect with each other so much digitally that actually having meaningful dialogues is becoming rarer and rarer every day. So to me, I think an important antidote for this is focusing on resilience, focusing on strength. Because it's almost like it seems as though we are being trained to be more sensitive to insults, to offense and things like that. But the reality is these types of things are going to happen all the time. It's completely unavoidable. So I think what we need to do is focus on being able to withstand those instances of offense and use those as teachable opportunities so you could let somebody know, hey, I didn't take that the way that you might have intended. Let's talk about your approach here. Right. But again, those are kind of conversation, those are the kinds of conversations that people often avoid. But there are some serious issues that we have to address. Their Problems or challenges that. That is ubiquitous just in the human experience. There are going to be challenges, and these are challenging times, right? But if we choose not to talk about the problems, that doesn't mean that the problems are going away. That just means the problems fester under the surface without being addressed. And if we do not address them, then they are going to mature into big problems and then it's going to blow up in our face. And now we have a crisis. And so in my opinion, I think we have a crisis of communication because people are unw engage and they're unwilling to engage for a number of different reasons. But I think really it comes down to the fear. Fear attached with failure, offense, ostracization, whatever it happens to be. But that fear is going to hold us back from meaningfully engaging in these necessary and critical conversations. And something else, and I know this is a little bit controversial, it might end up being one of the most controversial sections in my upcoming book, how to have difficult conversations about race. I have this section there called, you're not making emails enough mistakes. You are not making enough mistakes because you are. If you talk enough, you're going to make a mistake. That's just how humans work. It's not. It's not possible to be perfect. That's not realistic. And if you are not making mistakes, to me, that makes it. That makes me think that you are not engaging in enough difficult conversations. That means you're not taking the time to talk to people who think differently, look differently, act differently from you, and you are playing it safe. And the thing is, people are. People say that they're afraid of making mistakes, okay, that's fine. But we have to remember a very important conversational skill is the ability to recover from making mistakes. There's an approach for that, right? And so the more skills, skillful we become at these conversations, the more conversations we have, the better we will get when it comes to navigating the awkwardness, the confusion, the complexity of these human interactions. So we really, really, really can't let the fear of offending somebody get in the way of having conversations. I mean, you think about the conversations you have with your wife. Think about the conversations I have with my wife. We, I mean, we offend each other all the time. We don't mean to. It just happens. It's a natural part of every single relationship that we have. And so we can't let that fear hold us back. We need to lean in. And so I believe the answer is going to be having more conversations. We need to Practice. We need to lean in. It's just like anything else. When you practice, you'll get better at it. And that's really what it comes down. Down to. Having the courage and the confidence to have these difficult conversations.

Yeah. I mean, it's so true. And I'm so excited for your book to come out. And I think, you know, the piece that. That pops into my mind is Trust. We recover, my wife and I, because there's that trust there. My wife is not white. And so that has been an I am, and that has been really nice because it's someone that I know is, knows I'm coming with good intentions, knows that I have questions, lets me ask, that creates that conversation and let me make mistakes, which is, again, it's a tight line to walk and know how to do it. But I think you're right. I think we continue to get so divided and the ways we can find some mutual conversation and forums that we can make mistakes are so important. Well, thank you so much for having me on. I could ask you a thousand more questions. I love this topic and this stuff, and you are a wonderful speaker and conversationalist. So thank you so much for having us on. I'm so excited to see you speak at the keynote in April.

Yeah, absolutely. This was fun for me. I appreciate you coming on and being the host. It's always nice to be a guest on my own show and listeners. I would love to see you at the COE summit. So make sure you check out the link in the description to learn more, to see if it fits in your schedule and we can make it happen. We'd love to see you and Cheyenne. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for coming back on the show. Appreciate it. And we're looking forward to more opportunities to collaborate in the future.

Awesome. Thank you.

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