How to Manage Stress and Keeping Cool During Difficult Conversations With Joey Klein

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. Thanks for joining us today. With over 10 million downloads and listeners from more than 180 different countries, it's dedicated listeners just like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of of the American Negotiation Institute. Now, before we get into today's insightful conversation, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives. Have you ever found yourself wishing that you could navigate those high stakes conversations with more confidence? Or perhaps you're looking to empower your team with the art of persuasion and conflict resolution? At the American Negotiation Institute, we've crafted special specialized keynotes and workshops tailored for those very needs. We've transformed the negotiation skills of professionals worldwide and we're eager to do the same for you. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And our goal is to help you improve your lives and the lives of those around you one difficult conversation at a time. Don't let another challenging conversation leave you second guessing.

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Discover how we can help you find confidence in conflict, negotiate better deals, and have stronger relationships. Because in the world of business, every conversation counts. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview.

Joey, thanks for joining us today.

Hey, man, it's awesome to be here. Thanks so much for having me.

Yeah, it's our pleasure. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Yeah, sure thing. So I'm an author, I wrote the book the Inner Matrix and founded a company called Intermatrix Systems. We essentially focus on training high performers inside the art and science of personal mastery. And we do this by focusing on key three things, essentially training, aligning and rewiring emotions, thought strategies, and the nervous system to produce the real life results that individuals are after.

This is going to be fun. And longtime listeners are probably realizing, yeah, Kwame is going to get excited about this because we're talking about the mastery from the inside out, which I really appreciate. And so, listeners, what we're going to do in this episode. Episode is we're going to focus on how you can keep your stress under pressure. How can you keep cool in difficult situations? Because as you know, I can give you all these tools. We can have awesome guests come on and tell you the strategies and tactics. But if you fall apart under Pressure. We're not prepping you effectively, so this is about working on that inner game. And so, Joey, can you tell the listeners about your unique background that led you into this?

Yeah, absolutely. So I started really focusing on performance and personal development. You know, initially, because I was in a lot of pain, and I was really just looking to figure out how to get out of that. I was a party animal, completely out of control in my later teenage years, you know, halfway through college, and was just like, man, I need to figure out how to make life work. So initially I was just looking for, like, hey, what's the formula for that sense of, like, happiness in life? That. That sense of peace and fulfillment, like, what needs to come together for that to happen? Ultimately, it took me to meditating in templ, you know, in India, Thailand, you know, in different parts of the world, studying with, you know, Harvard trained neurologist, world renowned psychologist in la. Basically, it had to do with personal development. I was. I was all in. And after I'd studied for quite a while, I kind of, kind of got my feet under me. And really I noticed that I was not performing, you know, in the way that I knew I could. Like, I was a martial artist, and I traveled all over the world competing. And something that I noticed was, like, I would do really well when I was training, you know, was having fun. And very few people would hold their own with me, you know, when I was in the gym and then I would go to compete and there'd be, you know, thousands of people watching me, and then I would just fall apart. It was so frustrating because I wouldn't execute on the things that I would literally do all day, every day. And I would have my friends and people come up to me and they're like, dude, you should have, like, you had that. Like, I don't understand what happened. Like, you fell apart. Like, that guy's nowhere near as good as you. And I'd be like, yeah, thanks for the reminder, you know, And I'm like, frustrating. And ultimately I, like, I was like, man, I need to pay attention to what I train all my clients to do. Because at the time I was training all these, like, you know, CEOs and famous actors and actresses and people who are really top performers. And I was like, what am I doing different in tournament than I do when I. When I'm training? And I realized that when I was training, I was literally just having fun. I was happy, I was joyful, I was relaxed. And then as soon as I would go to compete, I'D get this idea in my mind, I got to win. And so now, all of a sudden, I'm stressed, I'm anxious, I'm nervous, I'm afraid. And all of a sudden, like, the things that I literally was doing every day, I couldn't execute on. And so, you know, I basically created a formula where I could turn that on in competition. And that was when I started winning consistently. And that led me to three consecutive world championships. And ultimately, I did really well. But it wasn't until I dialed my inner game in that I was able to really do anything at all.

Oh, this is great. I love this. I love this. And I think everybody can relate to that in one way or another. In my first book, Finding Confidence in Conflict, one of the things I talk about was just the stress response and how it debilitates people where you struggle to think clearly when it matters the most. And this also explains why people come up with the best comebacks in the shower, like, later in the day. It's not that you don't know what to say. It's that in the moment, you can't do it because of your mental and emotional state. And, Joey, one of the things that you said that I really liked is that you found this formula. And the reason I like the term formula was because there's nothing magical about a formula. It's not some kind of mystical type of thing. You weren't enlightened in some kind of really metaphysical type of way. This is something that people can replicate. So tell us more about the formula you discovered.

Yeah, so I really, like. Ultimately, I was training, as I said, high performers in just about every area you can imagine. And ultimately, I was teaching everybody the same thing. If I were to break it down very simply, it was really like, hey, let's pay attention to where we are. Let's get centered, and then let's align ourselves in the way that we need to to essentially get the result and the outcome that we're looking to create. And if we can get good at those three steps, then we really become extremely powerful. And the reality is, if we're not getting the results we want, it's because we're doing something other than those things.

Okay, all right, so let's just knock these out. Like, 1, 2, 3. So the first one you said is get centered. What does that mean?

Yeah, great question. So similar to what you were speaking of before, if we ask a simple question, right? Like, how am I feeling in this moment? It really does come down to emotion because that tells Us where we are neurologically. And so a lot of people, they get kind of esoteric with the idea of it and we think a fear based state and people sort of tune out around that term. But basically that means our fight or flight mechanisms in the brain are on. And what a lot of people don't connect is that fear based states include sadness or anxiety or just a sense of mild stress or overwhelm or anger or frustration. And so anytime any of those fear based states are active, essentially even if we're a very intelligent person, we go in that fight or flight flight response. And basically our faculty shut down, we lose access to critical thinking and creative thinking. And so if we start to know like where we are emotionally, it tells us where we are neurologically. And so basically what it tells me is that I'm not ready to perform right now. And so if we can calm those fight or flight mechanisms in the brain, get out of basically an overactive sympathetic nervous system response and get centered right, get the parasympathetic nervous system working for us and get inside of an intelligent state, a love based state such as peace, anxiety, passion, inspiration, fun, joy, et cetera, basically what that indicates is like, hey, we're ready to perform right now. We're ready to sort of execute at our best. We're ready to learn. And when those states are active in us, we have access to critical thinking, creative thinking and intuition, which are essential for performance in any area of life. So if we want to nail it with our kids when we're driving to school and not lose it when they're kind of bickering in the backseat or we're going into a meeting and we're a top executive for a Fortune 100 company or something like that, and we're going to be presenting to 5,000 people both of those situations, even though they seem like they have nothing in common from a nervous system perspective, positioning ourselves to perform is exactly the same. And the more consistently we can perform at our best with the kids in the backseat of the car, the more we have the aptitude to do it when life really matters. And we're going to give that big presentation or whatever it might be, as.

You say this, every parents just shuddered like the kids in the car. Joey, of all the things to bring up, now everybody's suffering from the PTSD of that. But yes, this is great. And I love that you brought in the example of the CEO giving a big speech to 5,000 people because that's something that we could see the person on stage, we could see the consequences of poor performance just on the business, but also on the person's social status. I mean, that's heavy. That's very heavy. But I love that you brought that correlation to the everyday experience that people can relate to. The kids in the back of the car, the colleague at work who is stressing us out, who gave us something late that we need to do now. Their problem is now your problem. Right. We can all relate to these types of challenges and tell me if I'm on the right track here, because it seems like what we can do is if we learn to master this process in our everyday circumstances using this formula, it puts us in. In a much better position to master these processes when it matters the most.

Yeah, exactly. It's like sports. You know, it's like if we play a sport, like you're a baseball player or you and I were talking a little bit before, right? We were kind of into martial arts or a tennis player or golfer. Right. Like, no matter what your sport is, you know, people spend a lot of time, you know, basically getting the basic techniques down so that it becomes a reflex. And, you know, you're not going to try to get your basic techniques down when you're in the golf tournament, right? You're going to go to the driving range when it doesn't really matter, and you're going to swing that club a thousand times to hopefully get that reflex down. And then when it matters, hopefully it's there for you. And so it's the same thing. If we can manage our nervous system just on a regular daily basis, and the more consistently we do that, the more likely we're going to be able to nail it when it matters, when there's a high stress situation in front of us or where performance is demanded of us, and if we're not practicing the techniques so that they become reflexive, well, then when it comes to a high impact situation, there's just no way we're going to be able to execute and succeed. And so it really begins with step one, like, where are we? And then step two is like, how do we calm that down if we're not in an optimal state?

Right.

We got to have the technique. We have to have the toolkit for that.

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Yeah. Oh, this is great because. And it sounds like this question will kind of push us to number two because one of the things that you said is when we're in a fear based state, where the traditional idea of fear, but also sadness and anxiety, that can diminish our performance. But we need to move more towards a love based state, like you said, which is more of something that we would recognize as positive joy, that type of thing. And when it comes to it, theoretically I can understand, okay, that's a better place to be in. But in the moment, if I'm mid freak out, how do we transition from that mental state of fear to love? What does that look like?

Yeah, so just like anything, we could break it down and get very comprehensive around like the techniques, the strategies, the execution. But if we just keep it very simple so that it's something that we can all practice and start getting, getting good at right off the bat. It really comes down to initially awareness and breath. Whether I'm working with the top CEO of a company, an entrepreneur, a pro athlete, or I'm working with a stay at home mom or dad, the technique is really the same because our nervous systems are all the same. And so what it really begins with is like, hey, where am I? And if I notice that I'm feeling anxious or I'm feeling despair, or I'm feeling overwhelmed or just mild stress, it's just simply acknowledging that like, hey, in this moment I'm in a fear based state, my nervous system is not performing at its best. Right? Don't blame, don't criticize yourself. Right. Don't blame the parents. It really is just a nervous system conditioning. So step one is do your best to just acknowledge where you're at and without judgment, like, hey, in this moment I'm a bit stressed. In this moment I'm angry, in this moment I'm frustrated, in this moment I'm sad. Like all of it's okay. And then step two is bring attention to breath. And one of the simplest breath techniques that I know that I literally teach people all over the spectrum is very simple. We could even all do it together here in a minute and you just simply touch the tongue to the roof. The palate of your mouth and then relax the body. Step two, and you just go ahead and you take a deep breath in through the nose. Very important the nose, not the mouth, because we tend to take a deeper breath in through the nose. Maybe four or five seconds in a slight pause, hold the breath at the top. And then a four or five second exhale, pause, hold at the bottom. And then we'll just repeat that. Breathing in through the nose, 2, 3, 4, pause, hold at the top, exhale out through the nose, 2, 3, 4, pause, hold at the bottom. And if we can remember, I call that the four sided breath. Tongue touching the palate of the mouth. If you just relax the body and you breathe, you know, it's like a lot of people, even just two breath cycles, or some people might be continuing it, which is great, you start to notice that the nervous system calms down, stress starts to calm down, we start to sort of chill out a little bit. And the idea is you want to kind of find that place where you feel a bit relaxed or maybe like a peaceful euphoria might come over you at a point in time if you practice it regularly. And that's where that nervous system shifts, right? We go from that sympathetic nervous system mode to a parasympathetic nervous system mode. And that's an indication that my brain changed, right? My prefrontal cortex is active, which means I'm inside of creative thinking and, and critical thinking. Intuition is working on my behalf now, and I've stepped out of those fight or flight mechanisms in the brain. And so basically now it tells me I'm ready to think, I'm ready to perform, I'm ready to go. And so just like that golf swing, right? If we practice that breath and you do it even just five minutes a day, like first thing when you wake up. I always try to get my clients to do 20 minutes a day, but that tends to be a lot for people in the beginning. So like three to five minutes a day, what happens is then when you need it, when you're in the car with the kids, or you're about to go in that big meeting, or your boss is like, dude, where is X, Y and Z? And you're like, oh, I forgot about that, or whatever it is, then we can just touch the tongue to the palate of the mouth, inhale, pause, exhale, pause. And by the time we get to the bottom of the exhale, the nervous system has changed. Now, in order to do that real time during high stress situations, we got to practice it a little Bit and sort of get good at our swing.

Right.

If you're a golfer, you kind of practice your golf swing. So the more we practice that breath, the better equipped we're going to be to center ourselves when life comes at us, when life is happening around us.

There is so much goodness to cover here. Where do I start? Let's just go in the order that you gave us. Awareness and breath. One of the things that you said that I thought was brilliant is the fact that you said, it's okay, it's okay. We have these feelings, fear, anxiety, whatever it is. And what ends up happening a lot of times is we resist it. We resist it.

I feel this way.

I need to stop it. And we try to force our way into a better mental state, which studies have demonstrated does not work. It's that you cannot force yourself to feel better in that way. And so I think back to Viktor Frankl. He wrote the book Man's Search for Meaning. He was a psychologist who was in Auschwitz in World War II, during the Holocaust. And so one of the things that he said that he would help people do when it came to his clients that he would work with was called opposite intention. So he was talking about a client who would actually sweat a lot, and nothing could stop him from sweating. But he encouraged the client to actually try to start sweating more. When you start sweating, just try to force yourself to sweat more. And like, the opposite intention actually caused him to calm down. And so what's interesting is it's a counterintuitive approach because you feel this fear, this anxiety, and you want to force yourself out of it. But really what you're showing is that the way to get past it is to accept your current state. Oh, yeah, I am afraid, and I'm afraid because of this, and that is completely okay. And just by doing that, that helps you to overcome that, which is really important. And then with the breathing technique, I think in the military it's called box breathing or tactical breathing. People in the military use it to calm down. But I love the addition of using your tongue and putting it out the roof of your mouth. And tell me if I'm right on this. I believe that creates vagal nerve stimulation, which calms people down, too. I think that's something that I studied in the past, but I think that's a really brilliant addition because it creates some tactile stimulation which brings you more into the moment and outside of your head, which is really great. And then the last thing is, essentially, I'm going to dumb it down. And then try to elevate it back up. It's essentially what we're realizing is that your happy place is wherever you go. Because if you start to get really good at this, you can calm yourself down and practice calming yourself down. So then you start to do this in private, just day to day. But then when it matters most, you can find that place of stability and calmness wherever you happen to be. And I love just a little thing that you said, too. You calm yourself down and then you're ready to go. And so you take your time. If you're not ready to go, you slow it down. And meditation was something that was really tough for me for a very long time because I'm always, like, putting pressure on myself to be busy and get stuff done. And so I came up with this little saying. It's not true, but I know it helps me. I say that time stops when I meditate. Time stops when I meditate. There's always time to meditate. And, you know, okay, if I need to meditate, I'm going to stop right now and get it done. And then I will start time again when I'm ready to go. Because that's much better than having a bad performance because you forced yourself when you didn't need to.

Yeah, that's right on track. Exactly right. That's a perfect, good summary of what we're doing and why we're doing it right. And Viktor Frankl, that's one of my favorite dudes. The book, Man's Search for Meaning. Incredible. It's one of those that I read every year. Such an inspirational story.

Yeah.

Yeah. For me, like, emotion, something that I've learned over time is. And if we start paying attention to this right when we're stressed or we feel overwhelmed, a lot of times we think it's because of our environment. It's because of the situation that's going on or some dynamic that's occurring in our life. And if we pay attention and we kind of stop for a moment and we start to just witness and ask a question, like, hey, what was I thinking? Thinking about just there? What was the mind focused on when I was feeling that anxiety? And what I have found is that anxiety or stress or overwhelm is typically actually, it's not a byproduct of what's actually occurring, even when situations and circumstances are extreme. Right. So, like, I used to, you know, be a competitive martial artist. I still train to stay fit today, but I don't get in the ring anymore and actually compete. But it's interesting because, like, when I used to go to tournaments and I used to get in a ring with a guy, there'd be a lot of stress there. But when I was training, I would be doing the exact same activity. And it was just as intense because you're sparring or you're grappling or somebody's trying to put you in arm bar, inflict pain on you, they're trying to choke you out. And there are very few situations that are more stressful than that. Not being able to breathe because the guy's trying to literally keep you from breathing. What I noticed is that when I was at the dojong and I was training, even though it was just as intense, intensest competition, I was never worried, I was never anxious, I was never stressed, I was never angry, and I was having a good time. But then when I go to compete, it's like all of a sudden I'm stressed out, I'm panicked, I'm overwhelmed, anxiety's there, and I'm like, what's the difference here? Because number one, the environment is just as intense. And in some ways, my martial arts mentor was more intense than any tournament. Because when we were like closed door, sturdy students, he'd shut the door, he'd lock it, and like, we knew it like it was gonna, like, sessions were about to go down, right? And like, he'd be yelling at us and doing all the things, you know, preparing us for tournaments. So in many way, training was more intense than any competition I ever showed up at. And I always think, like, why is it different? And what I, what I ultimately realized, and I would be prepared for tournament and I would lose. Every time. I would lose, I would lose, I would lose. And when I would perform at the dojo, when I was performing in training, I would perform really well. And I was usually one of the better athletes. And I paid attention. I said, well, what am I focused on at the gym? I'm relaxed, I'm having fun with my buddies, I'm joyful. I'm just literally focused on having a good time and I'm focusing on just executing the technique. It was like a chess match. But then when tournament came around, my focus changed. I was focused on, I need to win, I can't lose. What if I disappoint my teacher? All of a sudden there's a ton of anxiety, there's, there's a ton of stress there, there's a ton of overwhelm, and all of a sudden fear is there, which then kept me from executing and performing. The way I did at the Dojong. And so literally what I did was I strung these techniques together where I would notice I was anxious, I noticed the fear would come up, the environment changed a little bit because I had a thousand people watching or whatever it was in the audience. Then I would use that breath technique, and I would literally close my eyes for just a minute and imagine myself at that the Dojiang in training session with my buddies. And as soon as I felt that sort of just fun and inspiration and just sort of like camaraderie, then I would execute in the tournament. And that's when I finally began to perform well and actually win was because I managed my state. And so if we ask that question when we feel something, it's like, hey, where's the mind going? Because usually the anxiety and the stress or the overwhelm is a byproduct of what we're thinking, not what's going on in our environment. And that's an important distinction because if we think it's due to what's going on in our environment, we oftentimes can't change that. But we can always change what we're thinking in the moment if we're aware enough to do so. Right? And so for me, emotions are not informing what's happening, but rather, emotions are great because they're just a different language, right? They're informing what where I'm at. And so if I'm feeling anxious or I notice I'm feeling overwhelmed or sad, it's telling me that my mind is focused in a certain way, and it's just sort of giving me that healthy nudge to refocus my attention. And so once we kind of breathe in center, now we've just got to refocus attention in a way that's going to align with the outcome that we want. And if we're with the kids in the car, it might be refocused to, hey, I want to show them love and compassion. I want to teach them something. I want to educate. If it's career and work, it's like, hey, how can I be helpful here? How can I create the outcome that I want to produce? What's the strategy for making that happen? So it's a bit of a redirect.

Yeah. Oh, this is good. This is so good. Because one of the things I like about this, Joey, is that it's empowering. If I would summarize that in one word, I would say it's empowering because people are recognizing now that, hey, my emotional state, I'm not a slave to my emotional state. I can actually gain some level of control if I have the right perspective. And so then it almost becomes a game. What is the right perspective for this particular conversation or this particular interaction? And I know for me, one of the things that helped me was like, for instance, as a father, I have a six year old and a nine month old right now. And so kids do things that are annoying all the time instead of being upset about, like, what they're doing. And I just started to say, listen, Kwame, your job is to be a loving father, period. Their job is to be the kids, which involves doing things that upset you frequently. And so the game is, you can't get upset. They're doing their job. You need to do yours. I'm like, oh, okay. Yeah, cool. Oh, you spilled this on my clothes. This is great. I have a meeting. Of course. That's cool. You know, I'm not going to scar you for life in this, you know, I'm going to change my clothes and get over it. Right. It helps. And I recognize in my difficult conversations in the business world, as a lawyer negotiating with opposing counsel, as a mediator and just like day to day with like clients and as a consultant, I can keep my cool really well. It takes a lot to shake me in the business world. But the more personal the relationship gets, the faster I am to lose my cool, get all flustered and lose all of my training. And so what I started to do in that situation is I started to say, okay, Kwame, you coach people on this. You're a consultant. As a negotiator, if you were your own client, what would you tell you to do? And say in this situation it's like, oh, okay. And then it turns into almost like a chess game where I am the chess master and the chess piece. I tell myself more objectively what to do. But what those examples show is that the solution when it comes to shifting your perspective is going to be different in different circumstances. You just need to take the time because. And figure it out, because there is an answer. But again, it starts back to self awareness. What was I thinking in the moment? What is a more empowering way of looking at it? And that's just a really simple way to get a little bit more calm under pressure.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. It reminds me of skiing, right? It's like I always look out when I go to ski and I go, what are the conditions? Right? And if it's like a little bit of over overcast, you know, you put in the lens that's a bit more see through. And if it's a bright sunny day, right, you put in a little darker lens to kind of manage the conditions. And so it's the same, same kind of idea, right? It's like emotions are trained, right? So if we wake up and, and like we wake up to anxiety every morning, which is like a lot of people, they just wake up anxious every day and they're like, why do I wake up anxious? But we don't realize it. Well, it's because we're trained in that, right? Like the more we allow ourselves to be in that anxious state and it's not a judgment. Like, I understand, understand. Like if we don't know how to train emotion or make that shift, then we're just kind of, you know, caught where we are. But once we learn that emotions are a reflex, right? Emotions absolutely can be conditioned and trained. If we use the right techniques, the right toolkit, then we can go, oh, anxiety isn't what I want to execute on, right? I want to execute from a calm place like you were talking about in business, like somewhere that got trained, right? Like somewhere you develop that ability to do that. And then the more you practiced it, the more you could go there, the more easily we could get there. It's like for me, if we really get great at harnessing our emotional intelligence in the realest sense in the most practical way, it's like, oh, I'm going to go to a martial arts tournament or I'm going to go to the gym. Hey, I need passion here. I need a sense of empowerment and strength. If I'm going out on a date with my girlfriend, it's like, hey, maybe those aren't the best qualities to bring to dinner, right? They might just irritate the crap out of her, which they would. When I bring that to our date night, right? It's like, no, no, no. Now we need to be calm and sensual and compassionate and loving and open. And so it's like the better we get at sort of training certain emotional reflexes, the better we can get at sort of putting the right lens on depending on the environment we're about to be in so we can perform optimally. First step is just like, hey, I'm in that fear based state. Let's get to a love based state and notice where we're at. And then the more advanced levels of this is like, hey, what's the emotional blueprint that I want to train based on what I'm doing and what I'm executing? When I get on stage in front of 400 people at the events that I lead, that's a different thing. I always bring inspiration and love there in terms of the experience that I want to be inside of. It's kind of like you can start to develop your technique based on the outcome you want to get in the life situation that you're engaging in most frequently.

Oh, joy. I love this. This is really good. This is really good. I know listeners are saying to themselves, like, wow, this was a lot. It was really good. But this was a lot. For those listeners who want to get on this journey of being able to control their emotions, develop better emotional reflex. I love that term, by the way. What would you say should be their starting point on this journey?

Yeah. So, again, I think executing those techniques that we just talked about is a great beginning. Just asking the question, like, where am I? On a regular basis, tuning into how you feel. Don't judge it. Just notice that it's informing you about where you are less, what's happening. Number two, breathe that foresighted breath. See if you can chart managing your nervous system through that. And then step three, hey, what's the focus? How can I align with whatever's going on in my life so that I take action from an empowering place? I'm bringing the best lens to this situation that I possibly can. And I wrote a book, the Inner Matrix, if people want to kind of do a deep dive and check out the science behind this stuff. And it's also like a little bit of a how to manual to get inside of inner training, emotional training, training in a very direct way. They can go to the innermatrix.com and grab it there, and it's 10 bucks, cover shipping and handling. I'll send you that book.

Oh, that's great. Joey. This was fantastic. Thank you so much for coming in and sharing your wisdom with us.

Absolutely. Thanks for having me, man. It was great.

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