How to Manage Stress and Keeping Cool During Difficult Conversations with Jean-Nicolas Reyt, Ph.D

Hey, everyone, and welcome to our Throwback episode. In our Throwback episodes, we are reintroducing you to some of our most popular episodes. This is great for new listeners who want to learn more about the work we've done in the past. And it's a great refresher if you've been a listener for a long time.

Enjoy. Jean, Nicolas, thanks for joining us today.

Thank you so much for having me.

It's our pleasure, my friend. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Sure. So My name is JN. I am an assistant professor at McGill University in the Faculty of Management, and I mostly do teach classes on negotiation. I started teaching negotiations five years ago with a background in organizational behavior, and I think, you know, I just love it. I've just caught the bug of negotiation and I realized how important of a tool it was, and I've just been excited, excited about it ever since.

That's fantastic. And yeah, a lot of people, I hear that same thing. I know I was the same way when I discovered negotiation. What was it for you that got you so excited when you learned about the power of negotiation?

I've always been pretty excited about negotiation. When I was an undergrad, I remember taking a couple of negotiation classes. This was always something that I thought was very interesting, a form of art. Then when I was doing my doctoral work and my research as a professor, I started looking at the science of negotiation and so how researchers were trying to map the territory of negotiation. So that was also very interesting to me. That's what motivated me to teach negotiation or to ask, to request to teach negotiation. But I think what really, really motivated me the most is realizing that the students who were coming to me and coming in my class were not so much motivated into winning and getting an edge and all kind of aggressive type of negotiation, which I thought they would because I'm in a business school. So I really thought they would be like sharks and they would just come and I would only have finance people. So what motivated me the most is that actually a lot of young women started attending my class and a lot of more quiet type of people, and they were not there to have an edge. They were there to learn how to stand their ground. They were there to learn how to be more assertive, how to ask for what they want. And that really became a lot more meaningful to me because then the change is pretty amazing for people who are mostly avoiding negotiation to suddenly standing their ground, being assertive, asking for what they want. I think it's just an amazing thing to see. That's really what got me the most excited about negotiation.

That's great. Yeah. I think once people recognize that negotiation is more than just a transactional business tool, it's actually a life skill, it can be really life changing. And I know I don't need to tell the listeners that they've been listening for a while, so they know, but it's great to have somebody else who's like minded here on the podcast. And so, listeners, today, the three things we're going to talk about. Number one, understanding and managing negotiation stress. Then number two, how cognitive biases impact negotiations. And then lastly, the importance of negotiation training. And I love how kind of going. Based on what you just said, we're hitting the science first and then finishing up with a bit of the art. So this is really great. So what do we need to know about managing stress in negotiations?

I think it's important to know that negotiation stress is a lot more widespread than people think. When you meet people in the classroom or outside of class, a lot of times they share with you that they're very nervous about negotiating or they're trying to rationalize why they shouldn't negotiate because they're trying to avoid it. And they feel very ashamed. It's a silent affliction. It's something that people just keep inside and they just marinate inside and they just don't say it because they're a bit ashamed of that. You can look at a bunch of studies that have been done and they show that around 60% of people avoid every negotiation they're faced with, including the most important one, which is your employment negotiation. So it's a huge missed opportunity. And I think it really shows how stress can really get the best of you and kind of prevent you from just asking for something that you really want. There's also research showing that if you avoid it, then you regret it. So that means you really can't win by avoiding a conflict or by avoiding a discussion. You really have to tackle it. So I think it's important to know that it's widespread. It's important to know that it's normal that people are stressed. If you don't have a lot of practice negotiating because you avoid it all the time, how could you be good at it? And so of course you're going to be nervous about it. It's normal. If you are negotiating your pay or your salary, you're literally negotiating with an expert negotiator who does that all day with Hundreds of people. So it's normal to be nerv. I think what's important to know as well is in most cases, asking is enough to get what you want. So if you ask, even if you're nervous, you're likely to get at least part of what you want. And then just to finish. I think it's fine if you look nervous during a negotiation. I think it's completely okay. People are used to people being nervous about negotiating.

So.

So I think, you know, don't psych yourself out. You don't have to look like, you know, you do that for a living. Just ask.

Absolutely. Yeah. And. And I love that you. You started with normalization, Right. Because one of the things that makes emotion management so difficult is the fact that oftentimes it's not just that we feel bad, but we also feel bad about feeling bad, which makes us feel worse. Right. Because we're judging ourselves, and we have that internal critic in our minds, and that makes us feel worse about it. And so one of the best ways to become a little bit more adept in managing your emotions is just accepting and appreciating the fact that you are not alone in this.

Yeah, I completely agree. And also, there's a lot of pressure now, you know, in being competitive and aggressive and all that kind of stuff. And so if you're not part of that category. Right. Let's just say you're not the most, like, outspoken person. Or maybe you just. Your natural tendency is to, like, shut down if you're in a conflict. It doesn't mean you be a good negotiator. It just means you need to understand how you work and how things are, and that's it. I think we tend to associate abstract, complex meetings with negotiating, where in reality, it's really just saying, hey, that's my issue, and that's what would solve my issue. Can we find something together? There is really no stress to have here if you just see it the right way. I think people psych themselves out. I think also something that's really important to know about negotiation is people also believe that nobody negotiates and that nobody is actually asking for raises or things like that. It's really not the case. Roughly 40% of people do it, and they're super happy about it. They express no regret. They got what they wanted, everything was fine. So I think it really is a matter of in what category would you want to be?

Yeah. And so for people listening, I think one of the things that you've mentioned, that's really powerful, but Easy to overlook is the fact that you don't need to be somebody you're not in these negotiations. And really what you're saying is you're, we need to mobilize authenticity. And when you think about the lack of confidence, a lot of times a lack of confidence comes from a lack of skill. And I know we're going to get to that, that third part where we're talking about negotiation training. But think about this, too. Let's break this down. So let's say you're not very confident in your negotiation skills, which creates more stress. Most likely you're not in the acting field either. So you're probably not very confident in your acting skills. And so here you are trying to do something you're not good at while acting like somebody you're not. And so you're creating all of these additional layers of psychological trauma that are unnecessary in these conversations.

You know, it's interesting because it did take me a while to realize that this was such a widespread issue because I'm kind of like the opposite in the sense that I really. I would be a terrible actor. And I just, like. I wear my emotions on my face. And also, like, I care a great deal about, you know, being authentic. And I really. It's. It's a bigger problem for me to, like, hide what I think than to have the consequences of expressing what I think. So I much prefer, say what I think. So it was a bit of an issue to me in the very beginning to understand why would someone not get into the face of somebody else if they have an issue, why would they not do that? And so the same way that for me, it's realizing if you get into someone's face, you're not getting what you want, you're not going to get what you want. It's not the right way to do this. So this is something that I curb. I think it's the same way about being assertive. Of course, you have natural instincts and you're going to react a certain way. Maybe your thing is to shut down, but it doesn't mean that's what you have to do. It's like mind over mood. You can decide that right now. You don't have to let your reptilian brain just go to fight or flight. You can actually realize that this situation is not as scary as it should or it as it seemed. And so I think it's really an important aspect, in my opinion, to just realize, well, sometimes saying no is just saying no. I have so many people who tell Me, I don't know. How can I say no? I'm always telling them just like that. You just say no. But I think when people have an issue, they just don't know how to say it. And I tell them, you're going to have to say no.

Hi, I'm Kavin Konacki, and I'm the chief operating officer here at the American Negotiation Institute. Did you know our company offers completely customizable negotiation workshops? The negotiation and conflict resolution skills that your team will learn from these workshops are beneficial across all professions, but they're especially useful in procurement, purchasing, sales, sourcing, and contract management. Our calendar is filling up quickly, and we even have some workshops scheduled for next year if you think you might want one. I'd suggest reaching out soon so you don't miss out. Check out the link in the description to learn more. Also, be sure to check out our YouTube, LinkedIn and Instagram accounts to see our daily negotiation content. Thanks for listening.

Like, don't. Like you're not. There's no way to say. To say no, but mean yes. Or like, you know, you don't. You can't do that. And so I think it's something that's very, very common in organizations. It's people who are people pleaser, and they really want to have good relationships at work. And some other people take advantage of that. And you end up, like, I don't know if your auditors can relate to that, but you end up saying yes to everything because you're worried about breaking friendships or you're worried about saying no. And I think at some point it becomes tiring. Right? And at some point you realize, like, maybe I'll get more respect if I say no.

Absolutely. And it's critical. It's critical. And there were two things in there that I think were golden, because you said, and you correct me here if I'm wrong on this. You said your natural tendency was to be a little bit, maybe even crossing the line from assertive to aggressive, and then you recognize you had to pull that back.

I always joke that I'm not passive aggressive. I'm just aggressive. Like, that's. You know, I always say that, but it's true. I've been told that many times. But, yeah, I think, you know, we. We all have different tendencies.

Yeah, absolutely. And so here's the thing. The thing that's really cool about this is that when you're thinking about the fact that you recognize you might have gone a little bit too far sometimes, but at the same time, you recognize the need to be authentic. People might in their mind, be creating a false dichotomy where they say, well, how can those two things be true at the exact same time? And I think really what it comes down to is the difference between editing and rewriting. Right. Because you're not rewriting your book. The book of Jean Nicolas is not being rewritten to be somebody else. But what you're doing is you're recognizing that this manuscript in its raw form needs some editing. Right. So it's still the essence of you, but just cleaned up as necessary to serve your strategic purposes in the interaction.

Yeah, I mean, I think one of the reasons people are nervous about negotiating is because it doesn't come up in their mind like how. Like what it would look, like how they would behave themselves. They just can't see themselves doing it. And so they just rely on the fight or flight situation, like the impulse. Right. And so this is why some people become very aggressive and some people just shut down. But deep inside, it's the same thing, is that you're worried that your boundaries are not going to be respected. And so whether you shut down because you just prefer to ignore it, you don't even want to deal with it, or whether you go into the other party's face because you just want to make sure they realize you have boundaries. I mean, it's equally dysfunctional in the sense that you're not getting what you want. If you don't say it, the other person can't know it. They can't read your mind. And if you get into their faces, the other party is not really. I mean, they would be a really good negotiator if they de escalate you and manage to get a good deal. But that would not be thanks to you. That would be thanks to them. Right. So I think it's just a matter, and I agree with you, it's really not rewriting at all. It's more saying what's the appropriate behavior for me to reach my goal? And I think, by the way, if you have listeners who also deal with like, oh, I tend to be too aggressive because I'm just worried. I'm stressed out. I have this thing that I really do all the time. And I mean, not all the time, but it works almost every time. It's a piece of advice that was given, like 20 years ago. And it's basically, we tend to be aggressive in negotiation because we assume the other party's intent. And of course, our mind is working into these horrible scenarios of what the other party is trying to do and all that kind of stuff. We have no clue what they're trying to do. We just see their behavior. We don't know what they're thinking. Then what I do is everything the other party tells me, I strip away. Kind of like with bleach, I strip away the tone. Any aggression, insinuations, passive aggression, like, anything that could trigger me, I just take it out and I decide to just rephrase it in my mind in terms of, like, basic facts. Meaning what is it exactly they want to know? So they could be saying, like, oh, like maybe insinuating your product is inferior and you're upset by that. Right. It doesn't matter. You're not. Like, being upset by it is not going to get you closer to signing the contract. That's not what it's going to do. So you need to find another strategy. And so how do you do that? Well, the better strategy will be to convince them that your product is actually superior. Doesn't matter. They just judged you. Doesn't matter. They said it with a tone. Doesn't matter. They seem certain about it. All of that is irrelevant. The thing is, you're not going to get them to sign it unless you convince them.

Absolutely. And again, you're spot on. I think this is a great segue to that second point about cognitive biases, because essentially what you're demonstrating is that a lot of times what's going to happen is that we're most likely going to fill in our gaps in understanding with our biases. And then if we're seeing this interaction as a stressful interaction, if we're seeing this person or this situation as a threat, we're most likely going to interpret the situation negatively. And so this is really fascinating because what you've outlined is a process within the process, because we talk about negotiation as a process that we move through conversationally. But what you demonstrated there, and I don't want the listeners to miss, this, is a process by which you strip away the problematic interpretations. So you could just absorb what you need to absorb and then make the best move, your next move.

Yeah, it's not always easy in the sense that it's kind of like sometimes it's a bit of a struggle because I think your ego tries to get in the way. But I do think it's almost the way I make it work for myself is I'm kind of in the back of my mind thinking, like, I'm outsmarting this person. Like, I am doing better. I'm Actually doing something good for both of us. And so that's kind of like the way I'm thinking it. Like, don't go down to the level. And plus, you never know what the other person might be going through that day. And so I think to go back to the cognitive biases, it's really interesting because there is a bias that has been invented in the 70s, which is the fundamental attribution error. And it's interesting because for some reason, it really has not permeated pop psychology, which you would really, really think it would, because it is such an. Like, to me, it colors every social interaction we have. And so I really. I think everybody should know about it. And it's just this very, very simple idea that when people behave a certain way, we can either attribute the causes of their behavior to external causes, meaning the environment made them do what they did, or internal causes, which is their behavior reflects who they are at the core, that's who they are. For ourselves, we tend to make a lot of external attributions or sometimes internal when it's flattering, meaning, oh, I failed the test, but it's just because of the professor. Of course, it's not because of me, it's the professor. So that's external. But if you win the test, you're going to think it's internal. Oh, no, I got a great grade because I'm so smart. But so we have. Because for ourselves, we have kind of like the full picture of what's going on. But for other people, we don't really have anything. We don't know what's going on in their lives. We don't know what's going on in their days. We have nothing about their personality. And so we have the brain evolved into. You have two options. You can either say, well, that's just who they are, so it's easy, right? Or you can say, oh, it could be a million things. So let's think about the million things that could explain that behavior, right? I always give the example if you see, like a mother at a supermarket yelling at a kid, right? So what do you think? Do you think, oh, like, she is a bad mom, right? Or do you think, oh, she probably had a rough night or maybe she's, like, doing, like, a lot of work. So I think when we look at other people, we tend to make internal attributions. We tend to think their behavior reflects who they are. But we have to be as kind to other people as we are to ourselves. And that means, you know, that if somebody is In a bad mood. Like, don't assume it's who they are. They don't have to be like grumpy people. Maybe it's just a rough day, right?

100%. And it's so powerful when you, when you give yourself that pass. Because a lot of times we, we are, you might listen to this and say to yourself, okay, well, I'm giving them a pass. That helps them. No, it also helps you because now you're performing at a higher level because you're having this conversation without thinking that the person on the other side is evil. You know, I think that makes it a lot harder for you to perform well when you actually assume mal intent in the other person. Now since you're assuming that, hey, you know, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt in this situation, then what it allows you to do is stay focused on what you're there to accomplish. And I know, I feel like I could talk to you forever, you know. But let's move on to that third point, the importance of negotiation training. So listeners, I wanted, I wanted, I want you to know that this was not me plugging this in and having JN give me like an alley oop here. You chose this. So tell listeners why this is so important.

I think you have different types. You have two main types of negotiation trainers or negotiation instructors. And I've really seen both. I think there is a portion of negotiation instructors who believe that not everyone can be a good negotiator, that there is a big part of it that's talent and that you're born with it or you're not born with it. And yeah, that's what they think. I think. You know, I disagree and I think a lot of negotiation professors or instructors disagree as well with that. If you, if you really think about what does it mean to be a good negotiator? To me, a good negotiator is someone who knows how to identify what they want, can prepare for the negotiation, can ask for what they want want in a rather normal manner, non offensive manner, non aggressive manner, and then have some arguments to explain and to support their ask. And then whatever outcome they get is the outcome they get. I don't really negotiate. I don't really associate good negotiators with getting amazing outcomes or constantly outperforming everyone. To me, a good negotiator is someone who is okay asking for what they want and is okay making a good case for it. When you think about it, actually not that hard to be a good negotiator. All you need is some structure. You just need to know, how do you ask for things, how do you see things? I think a big part of negotiation training is also debunking a few myths about what negotiation is. That's why I created that newsletter, Master Negotiators, a few months ago, where I go every week, and I have master negotiators who give advice on different topics. Next week we have one on human resources, because a lot of candidates have misconstrued the relationship between applicant and recruiter. I have five recruiters who are telling you, no, we do expect you to negotiate. If you negotiate, you have to know the market really well, because we do know the market really well and are giving you a lot of this insider information. To me, that's all negotiation training. It's understanding the parameters for where you are and how you're going to negotiate, understand how to prepare, understand how to ask for things, understand how to argue for them, make a case for yourself and get the outcome you get. And so this is why it's so meaningful to me, because literally anyone can do that. It's just a matter of giving it a shot and practicing. And so I thought that's kind of like what makes it magic.

Absolutely. And I agree 100%. And you think about, like you said at the very beginning, some negotiation trainers think it's a talent, and either you have it or you don't. Then the question is, are you really training people or are you just picking winners from the beginning and taking credit for their skill that they already had? And here's the thing. A lot of times, going back to what we were talking about with bias, whether or not somebody says, this person is a good negotiator is going to be dictated in large part due to their bias. I negotiate this way. And so if you don't negotiate this way, then you're not good. Or this is the model archetype that I feel like a good negotiator is. And then you don't fit that bill, you don't look like it, you don't sound like it, then you're not a good negotiator. And the problem is that people absorb that message and then they start describing themselves in that way.

I agree with you. I think it's so interesting. And this is why, I mean, I'm always very skeptical when people tell me they're good negotiators, because a lot of times it's just a way to be a bit, like, cocky or like a bit, you know, to brag or something like that. I think, you know, from what I've defined what a good negotiator is, when people say they're good negotiators, typically they mean kind of like the shark. The shark kind of thing. Oh, look at that deal. Like, she didn't know, she didn't see it coming or that kind of stuff. And you still see a lot of, like, negotiation instructors. I mean, I'm subscribed to a bunch of newsletter because I have my own newsletter. And sometimes, I mean, it just cracks me up. I mean, sometimes it's kind of like get this magnetic influence, you know, get people, like people to do what you want and all that stuff. I mean, that's really not the way I see it. Like, that's really not. Like, that doesn't appeal to me at all. Like, I really don't want to do any of that. Like, I don't want to influence people. I don't want to make them do things they don't want to do. Like, this is not at all what I want. And also, I don't believe it works. I really don't. I believe it's kind of like. Like you get short term results, you don't get long term results because people don't want to negotiate with you again because you get a bad reputation. And so all of these little sales tricks sometimes about this is how you destabilize the other person or things like that. Why would you want to destabilize the other person? Just have a reasonable argument, what the hell? Why do you have to do that? But for some reason, what they're pushing, I just don't relate with that at all. And I do think the new generation doesn't either. I can see the Generation Z, they really have something about being averse to conflict. They want to be very authentic. And they also want to make sure their personal goals are aligned with the organizational goals. They don't want to do things that go against who they are. So all of that weird, irresistible influence and all that kind of stuff, you know. No, let's just be practical, like. Right, let's just be practical. This is how you prepare a negotiation. This is what you can expect. This is how you ask without being aggressive, and this is how you say no. I think you explain that to people. It's enough. They don't have to be irresistible.

Yeah. And you know, honestly, Jay, and if I'm being completely honest here, I know when I was growing, when I was like going through law school and reading all of these different materials. And then you have some of the people who are reasonable and pragmatic in the way that they approach it. And then you have the people who, like you described, irresistible influence dominating people and all that stuff. I used to look at myself like, am I. Do I have what it takes? Because I've never felt like I was irresistible. I don't. I didn't even know what that would mean in the context of business. Regardless of the product, service, or skill set that you have, they're just irresistible. It's a bizarre thing. And so I'm glad that you're here debunking this, because it's really, really problematic.

Yeah, I mean, I completely agree with you. I mean, I don't think I fit any of these categories. And plus, I really do think that as instructors, if we use this definition of negotiation, of what it is to be a good negotiator, I know I can deliver that. The rest, like what they're promising about irresistible influence, you can't deliver that. And they can sell that. They're delivering it, but they're not. They're just talking about it. It and talking about it to a crowd. What I'm trying to do is actually teach actual negotiation skills that make an actual difference for people's lives. But I think I completely agree with you. I think there is one thing that does make a difference that I think has helped me a lot in negotiation over the past, and I advise it to my students every time. But I think especially in contract negotiation or when you go for a job, my students, they always think of themselves as like, this poor little thing, you know, like this poor little weak thing, you know, that's completely undesirable. And that's so lucky to have, like, so lucky that a big, strong organization made them an offer. And I think, you know, although I'm aggressive, I naturally. My other tendency is to also consider myself an equal of absolutely everybody I.

Talk to.

Which helped me and hurt me in the past. But I do have to say, if you want to be treated an equal, you have to behave like one. This is something that I see a lot, and especially among young women who take my class, which is they develop this rationale. I think they know it's not working, but they want to believe in it, that what they're going to do is they're going to be really, really good at their work, and. And then the company will have no other choice but to give them. Without her even asking to give them what they want. Unfortunately, I see these students a couple of years later. And I can tell you, they never get it. They never get it. If you don't ask for it, you don't get it. There's just no unlimited resources out there that companies are starting to give limited resources to people who don't even ask for them. And the problem is then these people who don't negotiate, they start being resentful to the organization, they start being angry, they talk in the back of the organization, they're thinking of leaving and all that kind of stuff. This is why I really think practical negotiation training solves that kind of problems. You don't have to be marinating in resentment, having all of these ideas swimming around your head. How am I going to say no? So tired of people taking advantage of me. You don't have to think about all of that. You can just do negotiation training, and then it's solved. Then you know how to say no, and you know, you know how to do things. I do think, though, it's also important to say that it doesn't mean you're never going to be nervous about it. You know, I think it's just normal to be nervous about it. You know, people might not look nervous, but I think everybody is nervous. If you have, like, something, you know, big at stake, why would you not be nervous? That would be weird, right?

And I think that goes to the heart of the definition of courage. It's not being fearless. It's feeling the fear and doing it anyway. And really, when it comes down to it, is you've said it over and over and over again. And I want to make sure that the listeners get it is they're asking. And that's why we named the other podcast Ask with Confidence. Because if you're just asking, that's where most people fail in the negotiation, because they don't ask for what they want. You know, so we have to stop thinking and then get to a point where we're doing right.

But it's really interesting you're saying that, because there is actually extremely limited research on what makes people avoid negotiations and what makes people more likely to tackle a negotiation. But there is one piece of research that's been shown that especially women, if they reframe negotiating into asking, they're a lot more likely to get what they want because they're a lot more likely to be assertive about it. So to me, that's a very interesting question. But I have to say, the entire field of negotiation, and even if you look at the tutorials and all that kind of stuff, they're all presupposing that people are going to be comfortable showing up to the negotiation table. You can see if you have a class of 50 students. You see that's not the case. This is not the case. This is why there is little to no knowledge out there to really help people take the step and actually show up. Before you can give them tools on how to negotiate, they actually have to show up. They have to be there and ask for it. That's a different thing. That's a totally different thing. It's not even about Zopa or Batna or whatever. It's not about any of that. It's just this psychological thing that's going on in people's minds and that they live, like, in silence, just afflicted by that.

Absolutely. And I know for a lot of listeners, they're saying to themselves, man, this guy jn, I need to hear more of him. I wonder if there's some kind of newsletter or resource.

Yes. So if you go on Rate.net, which is R E Y-T.net and then you click on newsletter, I have this newsletter that I issue every week where I talk about negotiation stress and how to overcome negotiation stress and basic tips and tactics on how to negotiate. And I also started having expert negotiation experts come and give short advice on different topics. And Kuame would love to have you in a future one. And so, yeah, I mean, the goal is really to create some sort of a community around people who want to be more comfortable negotiating, who want to have a practical approach to negotiation, and just want to get support and get more knowledge every week.

This is fantastic. And everybody, we're going to have a link to that in the description below. Joan, Nicolas, thank you so much. We really appreciate you coming in and sharing your knowledge with us.

Thank you so much for having me, Kwame. Thank you.

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