How to Negotiate With Narcissists and High Conflict Personalities With Rebecca Zung

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another episode of Negotiate Anything. Thanks for spending time with us today. It's listeners like you in 181 different countries that have made Negotiate Anything the most popular negotiation and conflict resolution podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, professor, and the director of the American Negotiation Institute. Before we get started, I have two quick questions for you. Is negotiation a critical part of what you do do need to resolve conflict and persuade at work? If you answered yes to both of those questions, visit our website to learn more about our negotiation workshops. We've traveled the country working with professionals just like you, and we'd love to have the opportunity to work with you, too. Check out the link in the description to learn more. Rebecca, thanks for joining us today.

Thanks so much for having me. I'm so excited about being on your show and collaborating with you.

Yes, likewise. So how about you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?

Sure, I always say that I'm a divorce attorney by trade, but that's really sort of like the very small piece of what I do nowadays. Just a little bit of my backstory. I came from my dad was a doctor, my mom was a nurse. And I kind of rebelled. My dad was Chinese, and so I rebelled by getting married at 19 and having three kids by the time I was 22. Like that was my rebellion. And then I kind of woke up and said, oh my God, I need to finish school. So I finished college when my older kids were 3, 4 and 5. Then I ended up getting a divorce when I was in my late 20s and wanted to figure out a way to support them. So I went back to law school. I was living in South Florida at the time, and at the time University of Miami had a night program, which I don't even think they do anymore. But I was teaching elementary school in inner city during the day and I was going to law school at night. Literally, I would get out of school at 1:45, I would run home, take care of my kids, be down at law school by 7, go to school till 10 and then study till 2 in the morning and get up at 5:30 and do it again. And you know, I ended up on Law review and doing all these things. But I always tell people it was totally fear based. It wasn't like succeeding based. It was more like, I do not want to have to pay back these student loans on my teacher salary. And I and it was survival for my kids and wanting to create a better life for them and all of that. I met my current husband in law school this year. We'll actually be married 20 years and we have an 18 year old daughter together. So when I was in my third year of law school, I started working for one of the top family law attorneys in the state of Florida who also happened to be half Chinese and her name was Victoria Ho and her dad had been a doctor and her mom had been a nurse. It was like this weird Twilight Zone universe meant to be kind of situation. So that's how I broke into family law. Since then, you know, I obviously started my own practice and I wrote two books. I've written two best selling books. One is called Breaking a Step by step Divorce Guide. The other one is Negotiate like youe Matter. Negotiate like youe Matter came out in September of last year. Robert Shapiro wrote the foreword for that book. And now I merged my practice a couple of years ago with other partners. I do a couple of cases at a time. But mostly what I do is I help people negotiate with high conflict personalities. I have a program on that. I have also Breaking Free divorce masterclasses and I have a podcast which you've graciously come on as a guest and that's called Negotiate your best Life. And I have a YouTube channel which is just about. By the time this airs for sure It'll be over 50,000 subscribers in the last five months since I really started getting serious about it. So there's a huge need for this information and I'm grateful that the universe chose me to deliver it.

Wow. Wow, that's incredible. Yeah, so there are a lot of things that I did not know about you. So I feel like I need to give you many congrats. First of all, congrats on your ability to overcome and create this life for yourself. And congrats on the practice. Congrats on the podcast and the YouTube channel for everybody out there. Listen, I like to talk about the number one negotiation podcast. And listen, I will say that as much as I can within the net for the next six months because at the rate that your show is growing. Say it anymore.

Oh, no way. There's room for all of us. I am from a place of abundance, not scarcity. And I believe that all of us touch people in different ways and we're doing the work of the universe.

So yeah, yeah. So everybody make sure you check out that show. It's fantastic and the reviews are incredible and just kudos because you started this year and I think last Time I checked, I think you were right there. Or you probably already have broken through 200 reviews, which is incredible growth for a podcast. So kudos to the fantastic work you're doing there.

Thank you. Thank you. Well, it just is really a testament to a need that, you know, when I first started and my program called Slayer Negotiation with a Narcissist actually launched in March, and I really anticipated that I would be selling it just to people in the United States. And so as I take notes on the kinds of things I want to do to make it better and improve upon it down the road, one of the things is adding a lot more about international resources because I'm selling the program to people literally all over the world.

That's fantastic. And it's needed today. And I like your focus on narcissists and high conflict individuals. Difficult conversations and negotiations are tough enough, but if you're dealing with a personality that's so problematic, you need a higher level program and I'm glad that you're out there promoting it. And as it relates to the content for today, the three things that we're going to discuss are four. First, how to negotiate with narcissists or high conflict personalities, and then we're going to talk about what motivates them. And then lastly, how can one get someone with these tendencies to negotiate successfully and end up with a fair result? Oh, this is great. I'm excited for this. So let's talk about the first one. How do we negotiate with them?

Well, you know, a lot of the skills for negotiation are actually very similar to what you're teaching what other people in our space are teaching. One of the things that I say all the time, which I'm sure that you would agree with me on, is that 80% of a negotiation is won before you even walk into a room. So much of winning a negotiation has to do with your own mindset and your own preparation. So mindset, I always say, is like actually like 50% of it. Understanding that you can win, that you can do it, that you can get what you want, that you can get an outcome that you think is fair, you know, and I say you think is fair because fair is always a different. It's really different depending on who you're talking to. Everybody thinks that they're going for what's fair. So you know what you think is fair, what you think is going to be a good outcome. The only way you're ever going to get there is by first getting yourself into a mindset of my matter method is my book Negotiate like you matter. Matter is actually the acronym for negotiating. And M stands for My value is defined by me. And the way I say that when I'm speaking on negotiation is you and you alone define your value within that context of value. I always tell people that there's really two types of value, and that is your internal value, which is whole and complete and inherent. You know, we're born into the world feeling pretty good about ourselves. We don't have any angst like, oh, am I not chewing my toes good enough? Or did I look weird when I. When I. When I grabbed the mobile or whatever it was in the crib. You know, we don't have any of that angst. That all gets layered on, layer, you know, so we're whole and complete and we're meant to be here and we're unique and there's no one else in the world like us. And, you know, on and on and on like that. So there's that layer of knowing that you have value and that you matter. The second type of value when you're talking about yourself is your external value. And that's the value that's really kind of defined by the world in a lot of ways. You know, if you are a software engineer, for example, then it's going. Your value to an employer is going to be driven a lot by, you know, what your background is, what your experience is, what town you live in, what size company you're looking at, all of those sorts of things. But what happens with us when we're negotiating is that we collapse our external value with our internal value, and we look to the outcome of the negotiation as a measurement of our internal value if we haven't done the work. So therefore, if I failed at negotiation, then I must be a failure. And that's the difference that I really want people to understand. And also, the second layer of value and matter is that we're still in M over here. We still haven't even gotten to a. This is why I say it's 50%. Is that all human beings, all seven and a half billion of us, if we polled, every single one of us, all of us want to feel, seen, heard, and know that we matter. It is a universal feeling for human beings. If you are a human being, you have that. And so when you're negotiating, it's going to be critical to understand that both sides are going to have to come away feeling like they were seen, heard, and valued. So that's really kind of the overlay of everything that I Do when I teach negotiation.

Does your company invest in professional development training? If you believe that your team would benefit from a negotiation workshop, all you need to do is go to our website, fill out the workshop request form, and then we'll set up a time to chat. These workshops are completely customizable and we've done them all around the country. Negotiation and conflict resolution skills are beneficial across all professions, but they're especially useful in procurement, purchasing, sales, sourcing and contract management. Our calendar is filling up quickly and we even have some workshops scheduled for next year if you think you might want one. I'd suggest reaching out soon so you don't miss out. Check out the link in the description to learn more. And now back to the show. This is fantastic. I really love this approach and it seems so obvious when you say it, but at the same time, the reason why we're saying it is because people struggle with it. And I say it all the time. It doesn't make sense to give recipes to people who are afraid to get in the kitchen. And so if you are struggling with your mentality, if you're struggling with your confidence, and if you're really questioning your value, you're not going to perform well in a negotiation, no matter what negotiation techniques and strategies, you know.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And especially if you're dealing with a high conflict personality who wants you to feel devalued and maybe has worked on you for years and years and years to let you know that you are not of any value to them and made you feel like they're always going to be the ones that will win, that they're way more powerful. They kind of led you to believe that over number of years.

Yeah. And so let's actually get an operational definition on the table here for the narcissist we're talking about. And in addition to that, you say narcissists and high conflict individuals. I'd love to understand your distinction there too.

Yeah, I mean, whether or not you're actually diagnosed as a narcissist under the DSM and they look at the exact characteristics of a narcissist, which is, you know, that you have an overly broad sense of yourself, that you feel entitled to things that you use intimidation tactics and gaslighting and all of these things that narcissists use to as part of their inherent personality. And you know, one of the things that I want to say about narcissism in general or any kind of high conflict personality, you know, it's a continuum because of course all of us As I said before, we want to feel seen, heard and valued. So it's like, okay, this continuum to a point where it becomes pathological, where this person has no sense of inner value whatsoever and they have to derive all of their sense of value by sucking it from the external. So we call that narcissistic support. They need an endless amount of supply, so they get their supply from and, you know, things that feed anybody's ego like compliments and respect and having big money coming in or prestige or anything like that. But the darker underbelly of a narcissist is that part of the way they get narcissistic supply is jerking people around and treating people badly and being judgmental, feeling entitled to be special and lacking boundaries and, you know, pathologically lying and all of the things that they do in order to feel a sense of value for themselves. So whether or not they're actually diagnosed as a narcissist or they have narcissistic traits or high conflict traits, when you're negotiating, it actually doesn't really matter. I use the word narcissist because that's the one that people most quickly identify with. But it's really any kind of high conflict personality that you're dealing with that you want to understand the pathology of this personality in order to be able to get what you want out of a negotiation.

Yeah. And you said something that's really interesting there. You said in terms of the context of a negotiation, it doesn't really matter. Matter. What did you mean by that?

Well, because you're dealing with a person who is going to be difficult, they're not going to give you what you want. I mean, here's the problem. When you're dealing with this type of personality, if you are a reasonable person and you're dealing with not reasonable person because they get narcissistic supply from jerking you around, you are fundamentally on different pages from the beginning of the negotiation because you are trying to reach a reasonable conclusion. You are saying, hey, let's not spend lots of money on attorneys fees. Let's figure out what the law says and let's come to a resolution where, you know it's somewhere within that reasonable range of what would happen if we went to court or what would happen if we presented this to a judge. Let's use that as our guiding principle or our guiding beacon. Right. I mean, if it's a legal type of battle, but you're not dealing with that on the other side, they'll say that that's what they want. But they also get supply from jerking people around, so they don't necessarily want that outcome. That's why you see scorched earth litigation, and it goes on. And. And they refuse to give up documents and discovery and motions to compel all day long. And even stupid things that, you know, that they're supposed to disclose and, you know, or they file motions for protective order against subpoenas, and, you know, now you have to go and have a hearing on that. Everything becomes a problem. And, you know, you see it with narcissistic opposing counsel as well, who have that same kind of power trip. Right. And they mistake having a power trip for being a good lawyer.

This is so interesting, and I think this is a great time to transition into what motivates them. So what is it that they're trying to accomplish here?

Yeah, so it's. It's that narcissistic supply. Narcissists are really just the easiest personality to understand, even though they're the most difficult personality to deal with. They're just like rats in a maze looking for that piece of cheese. They just are. They just need narcissistic supply. It is their lifeblood. It is their oxygen. It is what they feed on. You often heard of narcissists being referred to as energy vampires or leeches or parasites, because that's how you feel when you're in a relationship with them, because they're just trying to suck as much narcissistic supply out of you as they possibly can. So if that means that they have to play the victim, if that means they have to deflect anything off of themselves, if it means that they have to degrade you, devalue you, debase you, whatever it is that they need to do to feed that ego, it's a black hole that can never be satiated. And that's all they're looking for from anybody in their space at all times. So when you're negotiating with them, if you're giving them some sort of narcissistic supply by giving them the feeling like they are more powerful or that you're intimidated by them or that you are afraid of them in any way, it's going to continue. They have no reason to stop doing that at all until you give them a reason to stop doing that.

See, this is so interesting, and I'm really glad that you're talking about the concept of narcissistic supply and how it's impossible to satiate these people, because it sounds like what ends up happening is that they need more and More and more to feel as though they're winning. And a big part, part of their winning is creating a sizable gap between them and other people around them. So not only do they need a lot to amplify themselves, but they also need to push other people down. So there's a wider chasm between you and them. And so when you're negotiating with somebody, a lot of times we have this idea of concessions and using concessions to trigger reciprocity. And a lot of times we say, okay, we might believe in this win win ideology. They're not being reasonable. I'm going to give a concession and then they're going to give something back. That's what collaborative negotiation is all about. Shouldn't I do that type of stuff? But it sounds like what ends up happening is that those same reasonable negotiation tactics with this kind of personality type would lead to more bad behavior in the future.

Well, it definitely could. I mean, what I would say is, yeah, certainly you're going to want to think, decide ahead of time what it is your concessions are going to be, and you're going to go in and you're going to ask for more than what you want and blah, blah, blah. But part of it is also going to be not letting the narcissist know what means the most to you, because that's the one thing that they're going to definitely make sure that you don't get, no matter what. Even if they don't want it, they just don't want you to have it. So what I always say to people is that the key to getting narcissists to settle any kind of negotiation is figuring out what narcissistic supply source is going to be more important for them to keep than the narcissistic supply that they get from jerking you around and you have to threaten that other supply source. So usually for narcissists, it has to do with how they look. So having leverage around, you know, things that are going to make them look bad in front of a judge or in front of the mediator or in front of the arbitrator, or in front of their lawyer or in front of their boss or people in the community, that means something to them. That's usually going to mean more to them than pretty much anything, even money. A lot of people mistake that. Narcissists are driven by money. That's really just a symptom of the overall layers of what's going on.

That's fascinating. That's really interesting. And so when you recognize that, for you, there's something that's important for you in order to feel satisfied with the outcome of the negotiation. You don't want to let them know what that thing is because they'll hold it back. It's really interesting. And so if, let's say, hypothetically, you're negotiating with somebody who's reasonable, who you already know you've worked with before, do you still play hold the cards that close to your chest?

Well, when you're dealing with somebody who's reasonable, you're going to go, you know, okay, you know, here's where we should end up. Here are the ranges. You know, in my world, it might be alimony or something like that. So you go, all right, well, if we're looking at lifestyle, the statute says 17 years or more is a long term marriage in Florida where I have my license. So if it's an 18 year marriage and there's a great disparity in incomes and the age of the parties, the health of the parties, you look at all these things. This is the range for a reasonable amount of alimony. And so you can have a conversation about what the reasonable range is and figure out what the amount and duration should be within that range. And a reasonable person will say, okay, I'd rather get more in assets and take less in alimony or something like that. And you end up having a reasonable conversation around those types of things. And reasonable people, normal people who don't have the pathology of narcissism or high conflict, we're motivated by lots of different things. We're not just motivated by supply. You know, it might be I want to be free of this relationship. It might be I want to have my kids more. It might be I need more money to live on or whatever it is. We're motivated by lots of different things in the reasonable realm. And if you have a reasonable person on the other side, it's the same thing. They're motivated by lots of different things. So, you know, a good mediator, a good arbitrator will figure out which what's motivating each side the most and try to come to a resolution where each side gets some of what they want. But you're not dealing with that in a hard conflict situation.

Yeah, makes a lot of sense. And so I think this again, perfect time to transition into the last point. Now, let's say we're dealing with that high conflict situation. We have a classic narcissist on the other side. What are the negotiation techniques that we could use?

So you're definitely going to want to do your homework. Don't, do not negotiate with them too early because they have to feel a little nervous. They have to feel scared about what's going to happen. They have to feel scared that they're going to lose some form of supply that means a lot to them. So, you know, doing your homework and making sure that you've got leverage ready to go. So my slay program, I teach people, so slay actually stands for strategy, leverage. Anticipate what the narcissist is going to do and be two steps ahead of them. And then Y stands for focus on your case and you so develop a super strong strategy. You know, people just end up defending, defending, defending against themselves instead of actually stepping back and going, let me be on the offensive here and create a strategy as to where I want to go and how am I going to get there. And then, okay, what leverage can I create? And leverage is what I tell people all the time is in your hands. It's not in your lawyer's hands. And you, Kwame, you know, as a lawyer, like we know the law, we can help you present, you know, information to a fact finder, a judge or whoever. But you clients sit on the mountain of information that helps us put together a case. And so if you organize it in a way like summary of when the person lied or summary of when, you know, person didn't show up for their time sharing or summary of, you know, you can go through your emails, your text messages, your social media posts and all of these things and create tables and charts and things and then, you know, have tabs of each email, you know, so if it's summary of lies, email From August of 2019 said this, and email of September of 2019 said this. And you put them together and that's tab one in your notebook. You know, so that way, when you go to present this information, you know, one of the things people do is they walk into mediation thinking they're just going to, you know, try to settle the case. No, you have to go into mediation ready for trial, and you have to be able to say, if you don't settle, here's what's going to happen to you. You know, I'm going to file this pleading and ask for sole custody. And here's all the ways that I've now, I've already gotten myself all my proof ready to show that you are a unfit parent or something like that. And that's definitely something they would never want exposed. You know, so I mean, you kind of have to ethically manipulate the manipulator and, you know, anticipate what type of narcissist you're dealing with, then focus on your case. One of the things I tell people all the time is that, you know, when you get into this habit of dealing with somebody who's so high conflict, you almost. You just spent. You spend so much of your time going, well, he did this or she did that, or we have this proof, or I have these 50 people who will say that she did this or he did that. You know, and that's all defensive stuff. Right? So, you know, what's really going to be more important is, yes, you have your defense, but a good football team doesn't score any points if all they have is a good defense. You have to have a really good offense, too. Why aren't you the one who should win this case under the law and with these facts? So I teach people that in my slay program as well. So that's how I would say you win.

This is great. This is really, really helpful. And you can see I'm starting to smile because you're giving me all sorts of great ide for the sparring session that is going to be in the next episode. So, yes, I thank you so much for this. This has been incredibly helpful. And I know there are going to be some people out there who are really challenged with dealing with the narcissist in their life, and this would be really, really helpful. And before you go, if you could leave the audience with one parting tip and then also let them know about your YouTube, your courses and the podcast, let them know where they can find you.

You know, I guess the one parting tip is going to be, you can do this. You can beat the narcissist. Don't think that, oh, there's no point to it. There's. You can never win with them. You absolutely can. I've gotten lots and lots of great results for my clients and the people who purchased my program. And so just start with your mindset and believing that you can.

Fantastic. And then the show and the podcast and the YouTube.

So my website is Rebecca Zung dot com. Everything is there. It's R, E, B E, C, C, A and then Z as in zebra, U and as a number G as in George dot com. My YouTube. If you just put in my name, you can find it. Or it's@YouTube.com Rebecca Zung Instagram is also Rebecca Zung Facebook. I do have a free gift for your listeners. I don't know if that's okay. So if you want a free crush my negotiation prep worksheet, you can just go to winmynegotiation.com and grab it. That's just winmynegotiation.com and you can get the free crush my negotiation prep worksheet. And let's see. And I also have a free private Facebook group, so for people who are dealing with narcissists, you can come on over and join us in our free, private Facebook group. It's called narcissist negotiators with Rebecca Zung. You just type that into Facebook and answer a couple of questions. We try to make sure that we keep it just to people who are dealing with narcissists and who are willing to support each other. And my podcast is negotiate your best life, and it's on at every platform that podcasts are on, and that's it. So I'm excited to have been here with you.

Yes, likewise. Thank you again. And I'll see you in the sparring session.

Thank you.

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