How to Negotiate with People with Big Egos

Hello, my fellow negotiators. How would you like to get the same expert insights and key takeaways in just a fraction of the time? If you answered, I would love that. Then sign up for Negotiate Anything Premium today. Negotiate Anything Premium is designed for listeners just like you. People who are looking to level up their careers and relationships while juggling all the pressures of everyday work and life in general. So what are you waiting for? Negotiate Anything Premium offers ad free listening because every second counts. Enjoy uninterrupted episodes to maximize your learning. Episode summaries. Get the most important insights from every episode quickly and efficiently. You'll also get mini episodes and highlight reels. You'll be able to dive into your favorite topics and tackle your most challenging scenarios with concise, impactful content. And then lastly are question and answer forums. This is where you can ask me anything and get my advice on how to negotiate and navigate the most difficult conversations in your life and business. Don't miss out on the career of your dreams just because you're short on time. Negotiate Anything Premium is your key to building confidence, unlocking your potential, and earning more of the life that you deserve. It's everything that you love about the Negotiate Anything podcast, but in half the time. The best part, you can get started with your 7 day free trial today.

So.

So there's really no risk. Take it from me, as a lawyer, entrepreneur, father and husband, I know that every minute counts. Are you ready to negotiate more of the best things in life? Join our premium community today.

Let's have a conversation.

I think that sounds great. Well, thank you all for coming back. How have you been enjoying the session thus far? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I do conferences like this all around the country. The vibes here are really, really, really great. The lighting is amazing too.

He actually took a little video clip of the lights in the background moving. So kudos to Emily's team for putting that together.

Absolutely. Yeah.

So let's give everybody a round of applause here. Yeah. So with this Fireside chat slash podcast is going to be an open conversation with me and Melanie. So we're going to kind of debrief the first session that we did and then there were so many left questions that we're going to get to some of those leftover questions. We're going to use the same app and so if you want to add more questions, you could do it the exact same way. So we'll walk you through how to do that. And so now Melanie, so for you, I'd love to get your perspective on that. First session that we did, but give you the opportunity to ask me any lingering questions that you had so we can go deeper into in certain areas that you think are more pertinent or relevant.

Who's that?

It's a loud phone.

That's a loud phone. Oh, good, good, good. I don't know that I really have any lingering questions. I know that people enjoyed the session, and they have a lot of lingering questions. They caught me out in the foyer, and they're just like, yeah, they're like, oh, I want to ask more questions. I said, then come back. So I really think that it's them that I would like to have the opportunity to ask questions.

Well, yeah, let's put up the slides. Let's put up the lingering questions there. And I think you all will probably be able to. How do we negotiate with somebody has a huge ego? Do people have egos in California? Is that a thing? It's a thing, yeah. So I'll give you a little snippet. The. The next book I'm thinking about writing is Negotiating the Ego. Because when we think about what is required to be effective in these difficult conversations, yeah, we have the tactics. Yeah, we have the strategies, but your ego is going to be one of those things that consistently gets in your way from putting things into practice when it matters the most. Because we have our substantive goals in these difficult conversations. So from a leadership perspective, we might be giving feedback to somebody, and then we want them to change their behavior. In a relationship setting, we have different things that we're trying to negotiate there too. But then what ends up happening is when our ego gets inflamed in these difficult conversations, our goals shift subconsciously. And then we turn this conversation into more of, like, a portal for our expression of our ego. And that leads us in negative directions, too. And so I think the first thing that we have to do is recognize, yes. When we're thinking about somebody who has a big ego, we have to think about ourselves and understand how our ego is coming into play. Because if we're recognizing somebody else's ego, it is very likely that your ego is at play as well. And it's becoming a war of wills in this conversation. And we're looking at them saying, man, this person's got a massive ego. How arrogant are they? And then they're saying, man, this person's got a huge ego.

Right?

And so we have two people that are emoting, using this conversation to assert their dominance in the con, in the relationship. And so when it comes to addressing somebody Else's ego. Let's get to the heart of the question now. We have to recognize that the ego will operate tantamount to an emotion in the conversation. So when we talk about frustration, we talked about acknowledging and validating the emotion. It sounds like you're frustrated right now. We're not going to say, hey, it sounds like you're an egomaniac. That's not what we're going to say. But what we can say is, hey, it sounds like you've put a lot of thought into this position. Oh, it sounds like based on your experience, you have a really informed perspective here. Am I sensing this right? Or it sounds like this is something that you really care about. So I'm going to touch on it. I'm going to make sure that they feel seen in that interaction. Because if they don't feel seen, then they're going to make me feel them in the interaction. They're going to say, kwame doesn't get it. He doesn't know who I am. So let me make sure he knows who I am in this conversation. And then it becomes really counterproductive. So understanding the role that the ego will play in these conversations is going to be critical. But I think also we have to step back and operate with a little bit of humility because our ego will come into play as well.

What's a trigger? Follow on question to that. What would be a trigger to watch out for in ourselves if we're in that dynamic? Right. I mean, is there certain. I mean, I guess our own keywords are always different, but I mean, there's gotta be like the feeling or something that we can sense to take a deep breath and step back from it for a second.

Absolutely. So new word for me this year. So I'm not just trying to shoot out cool words.

Okay.

But it's called interoception. And so it is your ability. It's like your sixth sense, but not in an eerie type of mystical type of way. It is your ability to understand what's happening in your body. And so this is a tool that we need to develop and cultivate in ourselves so we can understand our emotional responses. Because different emotions will manifest themselves very differently in difficult conversations. And the way it will manifest for me is going to be different from the way it manifests for you. And so we have to be able to really look back and be open enough and vulnerable enough with ourselves to recognize. I deviated from the strategy at this point of the conversation. What happened? What was I feeling? So now that feeling becomes familiar. And I can say, you know what, what I'm about to say doesn't have any legitimate strategic purpose. I'm just trying to put myself over somebody and then put them down in the process. And I know for me, if I'm being completely honest, it's when lawyer Kwame shows up. And so I remember I did something that I was afraid of doing in February of this year on the podcast, something people have been asking for that I never let happen. And it was allowing Whitney, my wife, to come on the podcast. And she did exactly what I was afraid she was going to do. She told the truth. And so I asked folks on LinkedIn, hey, what's one question you want Whitney to ask me or you want me to ask Whitney? And so I had to put on my interview mode hat it's like, Kwame, you're a podcaster. And they said, what's it like to be married to a negotiation expert? Her word, awful. She's like, awful because you're needlessly combative and things like that. And I just said, all right, I will say that I do demonstrate those behaviors, but let's not conflate these identities. That's Kwame the lawyer that you're mad at, not Kwame the negotiator. Because when I'm having these effective conversations, then there's an approach. I'm going to be listening. But when Kwame the litigator, the lawyer comes out, that's my ego. And I will try to mask that in terms of like, intellectual superiority in the forms of arguments that are difficult to overcome, despite the fact that I'm flagrantly wrong, you know, So I think it's just important to have that level of self awareness to recognize, oh, yeah, what you're about to say is not legit. So being able to just calm down and slow it down a bit is really important.

Awesome.

Yeah, cool. What do you do when the other side goes back on their negotiated deal? So first of all, any type of deal that you have, you should get it in writing, number one. And I'm talking any type of deal, even if this is just a conversation between friends, just send a follow up text message. That's it. It doesn't need to be in legalese or anything, but just make sure that you have something written down. Because when it comes to psychology, we have to understand how memory works. There is one thing.

Three words.

I'll give you everything you need to know about memory in three words. All right, we have paper there, so write this down. Okay? Memory is bad. Memory is really bad.

Cops will tell you that all the time.

Yeah, exactly. Like comically bad. So my undergrad degree is in psychology. And if you want to look up. Yeah, exactly right. And so if you want to look up a really interesting study, look up the studies from Elizabeth Loftus. There's actually a formula to create false memories in people. Like, memory is very pliable. And so when you think about just the reality that sometimes people have convenient memories where they don't remember things that don't serve them in the moment, but then also the reality, we all have biased memories. And every time we go back and try to recover that memory, it becomes more warped and more biased in our favor. And so a lot of times when people go back on their negotiated deal, we might think this is a bad person, they're lying, they're being manipulative or underhanded, or it might just be somebody genuinely trying to remember and remembering incorrectly. So I think what we have to do is gently assume positive intent and just say, hey, based on that text message I sent you or that email, this is what. This is what we agreed upon. I'm a little bit confused because right now you're saying this and in the past you're saying that can you help me to understand it? And that's a more humble approach that allows somebody to still be vulnerable. Because think about the way this is phrased. What do you do when the other side goes back on their negotiated deal that assumes some negative intent? So we bring that attitude to the conversation. It's like you said this and now you're saying that you're a liar. Now the person has no choice but to defend themselves. And we can't really hash this out in a meaningful type of way way.

Right? So, seeking to understand.

Hey listeners, I have a quick question. How long does it take you to get through an episode of Negotiate Anything? If you're like me, it could be a day or two simply because life and other work responsibilities get in the way. If you can relate, not to worry. I have the perfect solution. Join Negotiate Anything Premium to level up your negotiation skills in half the time with ad free listening episode summaries and mini episodes that are exclusive to premium. And you can get your favorite expert insights in 10 minutes or less. Not only will this save you time, but it makes preparing for your difficult conversations just that much easier. Just download a quick mini episode or a key takeaway guide and you're on your way to negotiating more of the best things in life. Here's what you get when you join Premium first ad. Free Listening no more interruptions, just pure focused learning. Episode summaries and quick worksheets quickly absorb the key insights and expert strategies with ease. Mini episodes and highlight reels. Get concise, powerful content on your favorite topics which are perfect for those on the go moments. Question and answer forums where you can ask me anything and get my expert advice on any of the difficult conversations you're having, whether it's at work or at home. And you'll get all of this for less than $10 per month. So what are you waiting for? Take my word for it. As a CEO, father, husband, entrepreneur and more, this is the best way to get your professional development journey in less time. Start your risk free seven day trial today. I'll catch you later.

How do you negotiate with several. Let's pause for a second because Melody, I'm seeing these adjectives are doing a lot of work today. Extremely stubborn negotiations at once. What if they keep riling each other up? All right, so let's take a second and take ownership. I think ownership is really important because if you find yourself in this position, most likely you did something wrong. Think about it. Because most likely you had some kind of sense of the personalities that are going to be in the room and then you put all of these personalities together and said, let me hope for the best. No, that's on you. Okay, so let's take some ownership because if you find yourself in this situation, I don't know what you want me to do with it. This is a horrible situation, right? And as a lawyer, sometimes people would go in and they start their negotiation, they try to save some money. They're like, let me try to negotiate this myself. Oop, broke the relationship. Kwame, come in and save this. I'm like, listen, I'm not a magician. So in this situation, what we need to do, the best strategy is to make sure you don't find yourself in this situation. So let's go back to what I talked about during the presentation. With coalition building, you have to have these one on one negotiations with each individual person before. And then you also not just negotiate for the specific substantive outcome you're trying to go for. In this situation, you have to be negotiating first and foremost for the process. This process that's described up here does not work. And it's not going to be surprising when it doesn't work. And so you have to figure out what is the process, the procedure that we need to follow that puts us in a position not just to get what we want but puts us in a position to be able to actually have a productive conversation. Because if you put people who are stubborn in a room who just trigger each other, it's going to be hard for anybody, regardless of their level of skill, to have a productive conversation out of that situation.

Makes sense.

Yeah.

What else have we got? Where's that return button?

Yeah, let's press enter and see what we got.

You like that? I said the return button.

Return.

I mean, was that like typing class? In my senior year of high school, I think. I think I just dated myself. Awesome.

Okay, we got another good one. How do we negotiate with somebody who is irrational?

We are stressed out Realtors.

Okay, I can tell. I can tell.

We have a lot of human issues.

We need an intervention. Are you all okay?

Yes.

Goodness. Okay, so let's go back to my mediation days. So for me as a mediator, it was really fun because I got to be in the middle of the conflict. So people would talk to me, and I would do these mediations where I would talk to one side, just independently, solo, and then I would talk to the other side, because, believe it or not, when you put people who hate each other together in a room, bad things tend to happen.

Kind of like the previous question.

Exactly. Wild, right? So my favorite mediations were the ones who would end up like this. They would be very frustrated. They'll tell the story. They'd give me all the facts and why they believe that they're right, and then they would end it by saying, and the other side is being completely irrational. Great. Cool.

Got it.

So I'll go to the other side and have the conversation. They would lay out all the facts and why they're right, and then they would end it by saying, and the other side is being completely irrational. I was like, oh, this is going to be fun. This is going to be a fun one. And so I think a lot of times when it comes to that feeling of irrationality, what I've determined in the heat of the moment, a lot of times whether or not we believe somebody is irrational is whether or not they really agree with us on this sensitive issue. And if they come to a different conclusion, the only way that they could have come to that conclusion is because they are irrational. And so what I would implore you to try to do is turn this into a game. And so, for me, I'm very competitive, which can be really bad in a conflict. But if you can orient that competitiveness to a productive outcome, it can be really beneficial. So I say to Myself, if I have that thought, this person is being irrational. I say, man, I bet I can listen to this person well enough to understand where they're coming from. I doubt that I'll agree with them, but I can understand how this logical progression makes sense to them. And that's the beginning of empathy. And so if you turn this into a game, you're like, hey, it's irrational. To me, it's appearing to be irrational. And that must mean that I need to do some work to understand where the person is coming from, because it makes complete sense to them. So I need to figure out how it makes sense to them. And I think that changes the way that you listen, too, because a lot of times we listen from our perspective, rooted in our own bias. But instead, if you try to listen from their own perspective, Their perspective. So even going as far as, what do I look like to them? What do they think about me? Because everybody comes into these conversations with a story, and usually it's a hero, villain, arc. I'm the hero, you're the villain. They have a story, too, and sometimes we're the villain. So we have to figure out what that means to them.

Right. This may take a little longer.

Exactly. And that's where patience comes in, too.

Yeah, I kind of borrow some.

Me too. Me too.

Okay, what else do we have? We're going to do one more. I know it says we only have a few seconds, but I'm going to ignore for a little bit. And we're going to answer two more questions.

What if somebody is yelling at you? What do you do to calm them down? I thought Callie was chill, dressed out, real tours. Yes. Tell them to calm down. Listen. I remember one question I got. Somebody said, what can we do to get somebody to calm down? Other than saying calm down. Because never in the history of calming down has saying calm down worked.

Right.

You know, but so what do you do? So here's the thing we think about. If you're having a conversation with somebody who speaks English as a second language, and we're trying to communicate to them, what do we often do? We speak louder. Oh, you don't understand me. You must be far away. Doesn't make sense. Right? And so if somebody's yelling at me, the way that I interpret that is, for whatever reason, in this moment, this person does not feel heard. Right? And so they're trying to yell in order to get me to understand. So that's where listening becomes a massive skill. And sometimes I'll be completely vulnerable with them and say, listen, I can tell that you're frustrated. And I'm going to be honest, I'm not exactly sure what is leading to your frustration. Can you please help me to understand? And that just like, can you help, help me, help me to understand this? Because a lot of times we try to seem like we have it all together, like we know what we're talking about and we're just flying blind to our own detriment and the detriment of the entire conversation. And so when I really don't understand, I'll let them know. And when I can tell that they want to be heard and I might say something, it seems like there's something that's being left unsaid. What is it that you think that I need to know? I just want to be very open with them and let them know, hey, this is a safe place, you can tell me. But a lot of times there's this inner toddler inside of people.

I love my inner 3 year old, I know her very well.

I bet the 3 year old thinks she's always right. Right. And so they veil that inner toddler that's having a tantrum in professionalism. And that makes it really hard to read. But if you let them know, hey, you're safe, you can open up, you can talk to me, it's all good. And it takes time to invest in the relationship and the conversation to get to that point. But again, it goes back to patience because again, when somebody yells at you, we want to reciprocate. Right?

Absolutely.

Yeah. So this is a tough one, but it's really important too.

That's good. Okay, one last question.

Yes, yes, one more.

Cool.

What is the degree of difficulty in negotiating with cultural and politically conservative countries?

Okay, man.

I was like, oh, there's no, you know, irrational talk there. And then this is, this is challenging. So let's talk about this. So let's talk about culture, what culture.

Is and what it isn't.

A lot of times we have a very narrow perspective on what culture is. We think about it in geographic terms, ethnicity, those type of things. But let's talk about big sea culture versus little sea culture. So big sea culture, that's nationalities, ethnicities, those type of things. But little sea culture is really just the way that we do things. So your neighborhood has a culture, your school system has a culture. If you go to a gym, the gym has a culture. If you go to a yoga studio in the same city, that has a culture too. And so you have to figure out the general way that we do Things. And a lot of times when we run into conflicts, they're really cross cultural, cultural conflicts. And when you think about little sea culture and recognizing that they're everywhere, a lot of the conflicts that we have, even though they might be with people who look like us, think like us, and live in the same city, it's still an intercultural conflict that we have to work out. This is the way you do things. This is the way I do things. And so again, I don't want to be a broken record here, but it goes down to understanding. But we have to understand the difference between cultural intelligence, which is an actual skill that can be developed. Just like iq, there's EQ and cq. So we have cultural intelligence and we have emotional intelligence. Leave IQ aside. A lot of times we think that we could just bully people with our intellect and it doesn't work. So leave IQ aside. EQ gives us the understanding and CQ gives us the cultural lens through which to understand the person. We recognize that this person is an individual that will be impacted by the cultural lens that they're focused on and they come from too. So the more I can understand that individual and at the same time, the more I can understand their culture, and then I can get a greater depth of understanding that can lead to mutual understanding between us two and then figure out what this situation means to them through that lens. Because the way that they are perceiving the situation, even though we might be looking at the exact same thing, we have very different perspectives about that thing. So it has to start with understanding. And then we have to recognize that we're not just negotiating for the substance, we're negotiating to get an overlap of our own little culture. So I think really, when it comes to cross cultural negotiations and cultural conflict, what we're negotiating for is the creation of our own little micro culture that works with our little relationship here. And so I'm going to bring my authentic self, me as a person with that cultural reference. You're going to do the exact same thing. And as part of this negotiation, we're going to be negotiating to see what is a healthy culture that we can both share in this relationship. Relationship too.

I like that. I like that. Little C. Yeah. So because it's true, we have them all everywhere. We have a big C here, which is not the car part. And. And we have a little C. And we have our. We have our overarching organization, we have the. So national. Then we have us at State, then we have our locals, and then all of that is Based even on geography, we're a really big state. Right. And we were talking about that this morning with my logo, that it was the geography of California, making sure that it's all seen and all represented. Because it's important as my mind anyways, as a state association, that we're keeping that all in mind in context as we make board decisions and negotiate at a board level. Right? So that's a really awesome way to end. On that note.

Yes, my pleasure. Thanks for having me back. This was fun.

Oh, look at that. It's a little bit after five, so the line for the booze is gonna be really long. Sorry, guys. All right, so what? Oh, yeah, sorry. All the presidents already drinking, they didn't come back in here with us. They're like, forget it. Well, this concludes day one of our conference, and I hope y' all had a wonderful time and I will see you at the bar.

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

Now, before you sign off, I have something to tell you that I've never told you before.

Just kidding.

I've told you before, but you should listen to it again. I want you to know about Negotiate Anything Premium. Imagine all of the things that you love about our traditional feed, plus so much more. I know you like our traditional feed because you're at the end of the episode. And with Negotiate Anything Premium, you'll get more bonus content you've been asking for more of the expert insights that you can't get anywhere else, and more exclusive behind the scenes access into every conversation. Are you ready to get more of what you want out of your life, career, and every conversation? With Negotiate Anything Premium, you'll have access to more high level, custom designed content and insights, giving you the tools you need to negotiate higher salaries, better deals, and better relationships in your life and career. Once I had a listener share that Negotiate Anything helped her to negotiate a $53,000 raise. Could this be you? What would that mean for your life? I've seen firsthand the impact this model has had on my life and the lives of my corporate clients. And I am confident that it can do the same for you. Are you ready to negotiate more of.

The best things in life?

Click the link in the show notes to learn more.

I'll catch you later.