How to Recognize Your Biases and Strengthen Relationships with Beth Buelow, PCC

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another episode of Negotiate Anything. Thanks for spending time with us today. It's listeners like you in 181 different countries that have made Negotiate Anything the most popular negotiation and conflict resolution podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, professor, and the director of the American Negotiation Institute. Before we get started, I have two quick questions for you. Is negotiation a critical part of what you do? Do need to resolve conflict and persuade at work? If you answered yes to both of those questions, visit our website to learn more about our negotiation workshops. We've traveled the country working with professionals just like you and we'd love to have the opportunity to work with you too. Check out the link in the description to learn more.

Beth, thank you for joining us again. My friend.

Kwame, I am so glad to be here.

Yes, for the third time.

I know three Pete, it's like Saturday Night Live.

You are in rarefied air. I think it's just Ahern, so that's great. So for the listeners who might have forgotten or the listeners who are first timers here, how about you tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do?

Yeah. So I am a professional coach and a certified mentor coach and I work with people in leadership and communication and conflict resolution, which is part of how we connected. And I host a podcast called How Can I say this? That's all about having more courageous conversations to build community and connection. You can tell I love my alliteration and I am just, I'm passionate about a lot of things, but primarily supporting people in having solid relationships through creative conflict, constructive conflict and positive, healthy communication.

Absolutely. So we can all see why your voice is so valuable here in this show. We're very like minded in that regard. And so today we're going to have just an open conversation. Usually we have like a really structured approach, but I trust you at this point we could chat for a little bit and give people a peek behind the curtain of a conversation that we would just have anyways. And a couple of the topics that we'll touch on. Number one, we're going to touch on mindset at some point we're going to talk about the myth of a one on one negotiation, which I think is really important, but we haven't explicitly discussed on the show there. And so first, when you put in at that time when you said, hey, let's talk about the myth of a one on one negotiation, what really prompted you to suggest that as a topic?

Well, this Goes back to last fall. I was doing some trainings for the City of Muskegon, some of their staff, about conflict communication and creating a culture of positive communication. I started thinking about what I called the anatomy of an interaction as a way for them to expand their thinking about how they're showing up to any interaction they have and how the other person is showing up. And I talked about it's not just you and that other person. Right. And actually, I want to pull up, there's like a doctor or doctor, a Mr. Rogers quote where he says, you know, we are not just who we are in the present, where everything we were in the past or who we are in the present is who we were in the past. And so this idea that we're bringing so much of us to everything we do. So I talked about what I bring to the interaction, what the other person brings, what the space we're in brings, and what the timing of it brings. So all the context over the past year, since I did that particular training, I've been shifting to thinking about it in coaching as well. So, like I said, I'm a professional coach and I'm a member of the International Coaching Federation. And they just released some new core competencies. So those are like the best practices and guidelines that we as coaches try to embody. And there's a new emphasis on systems. So in other words, like, you know, being able to look at not just the client in front of you, but the system of which they are part, and then by extension, the system of which we are part. And, you know, I've been doing a lot of having a lot of ethics conversations with coaches, and we've been talking about the role of systems and how do we discover and navigate very complex systems in our coaching. And actually, I was thinking about doing a presentation about it, and the phrase there's no such thing as one on one coaching popped into my head because I thought, we talk about one on one coaching as if it's just me, it's just you. And it's like, no, there is a constellation in the room. And I think that that applies to negotiation, to conflict, to everything else. It's not just me and you in this, you know, sliver of moment in time. It's everything that happened before. It's what we're thinking about is going to happen in the future. It is our identity, it's our biases, it's, you know, the filters, the lenses through which we look at the world. And. And if we forget that, I. I think forgetting that or not being cognizant of that is part of what causes us to shut down, to have, you know, unconstructive conflict, to shut out possibility, to, you know, throw up barriers, that sort of thing. So that's a sort of long answer to that question. But it's. It's been an evolving awareness that. Yeah, it's just been evolving.

Absolutely. And when you describe. Makes a lot of sense. And I think that's the. I guess we could call it the anatomy of something that is really brilliant. Something that seems obvious in hindsight is a brilliant insight. And here it makes a lot of sense that we have these structures, systems, histories, personal experiences, all this complexity that each person is bringing to the interaction that we appreciate when we're prompted to think about it. But we don't often think about it. We don't talk about the. Think about the complexity of the individual and the complexity of the situation, context, and system that they find themselves in. What makes it so difficult for us to actually bring that knowledge and put it into action when we're actually having these difficult conversations?

I think part of it is that emotions are high, so we're often not necessarily thinking in that kind of global context. We're more centered on. This is what I want, you know. You know, our own self interest. And sometimes that. That can get in the way of extending. I mean, you might. Another way of thinking. It, of course, is empathy. You know, being able to see things from the other person's perspective or to imagine how they might be feeling as they hear your words or consider your offer or your. The information you're sharing. I think probably even just. And you probably know more about this than I do, because I think I've heard you talk about these physiological responses. What's happening neurologically when we are in a conflict. In what way does that throw up the barriers? Our unconscious biases aren't able to be seen, and they call them blind spots. And I've heard now that blind spots might be. There are other ways of maybe putting that. Like, you know, just like the blank spaces in our. In our vision, in our mental vision, we don't know what we don't know. And so some of this, I think, is having conversations like this and just even raising our awareness when we're not in the heat of the moment. So that when we do get in the heat of the moment, where we're more likely to more quickly recognize when those dynamics are at play. I'm curious. Like I said, I know you know more about that neurological response. When we're in conflict, what do you think about how we respond in our ability to do that?

Yeah, you're spot on. Because when you think about the psychological responses that occur when somebody sees a threat, it's very primal and you focus on the threat. And so, for instance, if, let's say it's a situation where you're being robbed and there's a gun pointed at your face, people can describe the gun really, really well, but they struggle to describe the face because they're focusing on the threat. And so it gives us tunnel vision when we are in a heightened emotional state and we're focused on you and the problem that you created.

Exactly, exactly. I didn't do it.

Exactly. And I think you make a really good point. The more we practice this type of empathy and consideration of the Conte, the easier it is for us to actually do it in the moment, because it's going to feel a little bit more automatic. But we need to practice it. It needs to become a mental habit. If we don't do that, then it's not going to. It's not going to happen. And when you think about the way that people respond under pressure, people respond to their default actions. You become more of who you are under pressure. And a lot of times our baseline response isn't going to be appropriate. We're not going to think through it thoroughly. So I agree we have to practice because our natural inclination isn't going to lead us to do the right things.

Yeah. And. And all of a sudden, and I don't know if this is valid or not, but I'm thinking about, you know, practicing not under pressure. Right. You know, like, so in every day, just being aware and just practicing noticing. And it doesn't have to be your own interactions. It could be you observing other people interacting and thinking about, okay, what's. What are the different pieces of the system that are at play here? They might be different ages, different races, different, you know, from different parts of the country, different religions, conservative or liberal, you know, to think about what are all of the complexities that each person is bringing and how do you see those playing out? And it just crossed my mind. I thought you could even. It's amazing to me, I've been watching a lot of, like, Britbox, you know, and, you know, Netflix and specials and whatnot. And I have to say, I find foreign shows, as in non US shows, to often demonstrate a lot more complexity in their relationships and in their conflict and in their conversations and communications, because often the stories are playing out over a much longer period of time. And so to watch those things through something of this lens of just noticing dynamics and what you can learn, like one of my favorites. And I'll just share this really quickly. It was a show, of course, it was like a crime procedural and someone is sitting in a jail cell and two detectives walk in. They don't say a word. They just open the cell door, walk in, and the. The guy who was in the cell just starts talking and he keeps talking and talking and then the cops turn around and leave and they hadn't said a word. And. And so in a way, it's like you have to think, if you think about that from a systems perspective, there's like a power dynamic at play there. There's something of a threat. You know, they were leveraging his nervousness, perhaps, and leveraging their power in the relationship. And they were really embodying one of my favorite Bob Woodward quotes, which I guess he got from the CIA, which is silence sucks out the truth. So I'm diverting a little bit here, but just as an example of, I think sometimes just the observation of other people and being very conscious and intentional about noticing what you see and thinking about what you see is another form of raising your awareness and in a way, practicing so that when you're in that situation, you have some more awareness.

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I'm glad I'm not the only person who brings this kind of academic lens to relaxation time while watching Netflix. Because it's great. It's really spot on because the thing I like to do is break down conflicts I like to see, like the body language, the facial expressions, the difference in tone, those type of signals that are very subtle, that demonstrate a shift in the tenor of the conversation. Everything was okay until, just like any good story, that's what every story is Everything was okay until. And so if you think about that story arc and bring it into each individual conversation, everything was okay until what? What was the thing? And what I've recognized is the faster you can identify that change in tenor, the faster you can be proactive about bringing it back to a productive dialogue. And the longer it takes for you to realize that things are going off track, the more difficult it will be for you to bring it back on track. Because things have already blown up to a ridiculous proportion.

Yeah, absolutely. And so along those lines, you know, observing and noticing at every opportunity you can. And then, you know, as we know, the only reaction and the only side of the conversation you can control is your own. And the other way to prepare yourself for that idea that not only is the other person coming in with a system, a constellation of, you know, characters, a cast of characters with them that you are too. And to think about, what is it that does inform your worldview? I mean, it's. It's a deeper, bigger question that almost gets to the like, who am I? And to think about, you know, I can name all of these different things in my identity and my experience, in my education, in my. What's influenced me? The more aware I am of the sort of the sources of my views, I think the more I can. I'm clearer about what I can own and what I share with someone else, and I'm clearer about where it comes from. And it's probably easier to see what is informing my biases and therefore even seeing them as biases, as opposed to objective truth, which is another big sort of nut to crack. Right. Because we can think our biases are truth. And, you know, so if. So if I can recognize it, oh, that's. That's my worldview. It's not the objective truth, then that means I might be a little bit more open to influence when I'm talking to someone else.

Yeah. And I think that's one of the most interesting things about persuasion, because what I found in my life is that the more open to influence I am, appropriately so, the more open to influence the other person is. Right. And I never lose sight of my goals. That's important. I mean, remember this. I do these negotiation trainings. I still practice as a lawyer. I can't be the guy who goes back to his client and says, you know what? I changed my mind. We're going to lose today.

That's not an option.

It's not an option. Right. But sometimes I like to think about it this way. Here's the way I see it. I'd like to know the way that you see it. Right. I'm not just going to attach myself to it. How do you see it? Oh, that's interesting. That helps me. And if I'm able to adjust and say, no, you brought forward some information that I was not aware of, then I'm going to adjust my position slightly. As a result of that, people say, oh, he adjusted. And because I made a good point, Kwame actually just made a good point as well. People are more willing to reciprocate. And the point that you made about bias is so important, because one of my gripes with the bias trainings and the current literature that's out there on bias is that it's too limited. We always think about race and gender as the main things that we're going to focus on when it comes to bias. But we have to recognize that bias is our default state. We always have bias. We have biases about everything, not just those two very important topics. It's about everything. And if we recognize that we're going to bring a very diverse set of biases to every interaction, then we can be more aware of the fact that biases are going to impact how we think about everything in this interaction, too.

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Well said. Yeah, it definitely goes. And not that those other items that you mentioned, whether it's racism or sexism, they're not surface issues, but it does go way below, you know, way beyond in a very expansive way when you really start digging around in it.

Absolutely. And one of the things we wanted to talk about was mindset and the appropriate mindset that we need to bring to the table. So what are your thoughts there?

Well, we've started to touch on it, actually, with the open to influence, because I do believe that's a mindset. We can come into a conversation with a closed mindset or an open mindset. And so to be open to influence means that you're going to be curious, you're going to release assumptions. One of my favorite mantras is I'm open to outcome, not attached. So we release some attachments to things because that's another thing that throws up a barrier and closes us, Closes us off to influence. And then as you and I were talking before we hit record, the word, the concept that I have been coming back to over and over and over again is humility. A mindset of humility. And. And so I. I'd love to talk just for a few minutes about that with you because, you know, I know about your approach. To negotiation. And you're not one of these, like, you can't ever show weakness. It's weakness if you, you know, if you're humble, you know, or whatever it is. Right. I. I just know that's not. That's not you, and that's not how you. You operate. And so I had a feel, if I talk about, like, what's the role of humility in these conversations, that, that you would get what I meant and have some thoughts. So, so when I'll just say really quickly that, like, the humility is. It's not, oh, you know, I could be wrong. It's not sort of disclaimers or making yourself small or shrinking. And it's not deference. Right. It is essentially that I'm open to influence. I'm open to the possibility that there's more information here than I might have. I'm open and there's. To the possibility that the other person has a point or has something of value to offer or could be right about X, Y and Z. And it's not just that they could be right, but it's humility, saying, I could have it wrong. You know, I might. I might not be on the right side of this, or I might be. I might be coming from fear more than I realized. I might be putting up a facade more than I like to think. You know, I'm telling you I'm being honest with you, but am I really being honest? You know, So I throw it back to you for your thoughts.

Yeah. As you were. As you were describing it, I think my thoughts, my approach or my thought on it kind of evolved a little bit too. I think one of the things that is helpful in these conversations is intellectual humility. Right. Because you can't be curious. We talk so much about the power of curiosity. You can't be truly curious if you already think you know the answer. Right. Then that's not really curiosity, that you're just setting people up with questions. You know, that's. That's. There's a difference there. And humility is a. I think it's a superpower when it comes to these difficult conversations because you're focused on learning. The more information you have, and the higher the quality of the information you have, the more effective you're going to be in these conversations. And what's interesting is that I think humility, I think you described it very well. The openness to adjustments when appropriate. I think that's good. And the willingness and desire to learn, I think that's another thing. And I Think we can extend that into the way that you carry yourself. You can be both confident and humble at the same time. I think that's completely possible, too. But I think for different people, humility might come from different places, which is. And that's the evolution, the slight evolution that happened as you were speaking, because I thought about it. Where does my humility come from? And I think that for me, and this is going to sound very strange, it comes from a place of. Of strategy and competition, so.

Interesting.

Yeah, yeah.

Say more.

So I did my strengths finder recently. I've been telling the listeners that I've been. That I'm going to do it for, like, three years. Every time I have a strengths fighter expert, I'm like, hey, I'm going to do it. Well, I finally did it. Strength number one was competition, and seven out of the top ten were in the field of strategy, which explains why I play chess in my free time. Strategy are fun. You'll never guess what the last One was. Number 34 was empathy.

Fascinating.

Yeah, because. And people who listen to the podcast would say, you talk about empathy almost every single episode. And I realized that it's not something that I do naturally, but I do it well. I've developed it as a skill because it helps me to accomplish my goals, and it's the best strategy to utilize. Right. And so I recognize, hey, I want to get. Get as much information as possible, so I'm going to do a lot of research in order to do that. But there's some information that only exists within the confines of your mind. Right. So I need to. I need you to give it to me. And so that's where the humility comes from. I don't know what you know, so I need you to share it. You need to be willing to give it to me. I can't force you to. So that's where the curiosity comes from. That's. That's a major part of it. The other thing is, for me, I don't really care if I'm right. I'm competitive, so I want to win. If currently I'm operating on bad information, I need to know that immediately. You need to correct me immediately. So if. If I'm wrong and somebody lets me know that I'm wrong, I approach it with gratitude. I'm like, thank goodness. Because I was going to operate a strategy based on faulty information, which would lead to me not being able to compete effectively. And so.

And watch out, then.

You know, it's. I didn't fully understand it until. Until we had this conversation just now here. That's awesome, audience.

And see, that's what I love about talking to you. Because also what, what crystallized for me as you were sharing is also this idea of what is it you expressed? Like, it's not just, it's humility about, like what, what we know and don't know. And then I extend that to the other person and I'm actually thinking of someone in particular. It's humility that we don't know what's best for someone else. I mean, I'm thinking about, about someone and this is, you know, I don't want to stray into political waters or anything, but I'm just, I'm thinking about someone that I care about that has said that they're not going to get the vaccine. And I intend to get the vaccine. And my first instinct was, wait a minute, what? You know, you can't do that. You know, you, you've got to get it. You're in a vulnerable population. You, you, you, you know, whatever. As if I knew what was best for them. Because of course I do, because I love you, you know, and I care about you. Right? And, and then I got, you know, we, this was a live conversation, which actually is a gift, right, because it didn't start on email or text. It was, it was an unexpected, unplanned interaction, but then it moved to email. And over email, I again, you know, prodded a little bit and just said, you know, I'm only pushing this because I care. And this person pushed back and said, I know you care. And here, here's what I'm seeing and the reasons I'm not doing it. I started to respond with more, but, but, but, you know, sort of stuff. And then I thought, no, I'm just going to bottom line it. I'm just going to say, you know, I'm going to acknowledge the things that that person said that they were doing to take care of themselves, like how they were being cautious. I'm going to ask, how does your. I don't know if this is advisable or not, but I just said, you know, I'm. What does your doctor advise you to do? That's what I would trust more than anything. And then I signed off. So I left out any response to the issues that would escalate the situation and decided just to focus on the humility comes in with saying, it's not up to me to decide what's best for this person. I am not them. They are an adult. They can take care of Themselves. All I can do is express my care, my concern, and then let it go. And that takes humility for me personally, because, believe me, I want to bombard them with the facts.

This is interesting. I'm going to take what might seem like a slight diversion and I'm going to bring it back. So I'm going to cite the book the Power of Habits by Charles. Charles Duhigg. Really, really great book. Talks about the psychology, which of course, I love of habits. If you want more practical, more of a practical book, go to Atomic Habits. I think that's a more practical habit book. But in the Power of Habit, Duhigg talks about a keystone habit.

I love that concept.

Yes. So think about this. So with a keystone habit, this is a habit that produces other good habits. And so you only do one habit at a time because that makes it more likely for it. And so, for example, a keystone habit might be exercising. Okay, so I'm going to exercise consistently. Oftentimes something that naturally happens as a result of it is you'll start to eat better, because in order to exercise, you need to fuel your body the right way. And so it's a keystone habit that produces other good habits just naturally. And so it seems like humility is a keystone virtue because when you have humility, it produces other good virtues. So you have humility, it makes you more curious, which makes you more effective in these difficult conversations. If you have humility, it also shows that you. It also leads you to have respect. And so going to. The example that you gave here is that you have to recognize at some point in a conversation, especially when we're not thinking about it from a business context, we're just thinking about it interpersonal, where I'm helping somebody, trying to help somebody to make a good decision. I'm going to provide you with information that I don't think you might know. Then we have this back and forth, okay, Then we're both well informed. And you at this point can choose to do whatever you want to do with that information. And when it comes to respect in this situation, you showed respect through restraint. It is now up to you. I am respecting your autonomy and your agency to make the best decision that you see fit. I've done what I can, and now the ball's in your court. And I think a lot of times in these difficult conversations, especially when we're talking about a more interpersonal type of situation, you have to at some point step back and let the person make the decision that they feel is best given the information as they see it.

Yes. Thank you for that, for adding that. I love that idea of humility as a keystone habit. I think that's brilliant because, again, as we were talking about, it encompasses so many other things and can lead to so many other things, like transparency, curiosity, vulnerability, empathy, just by kind of. And really, you know, in some ways, humility is about keeping our ego in check. You know, checking in with our ego and what are we leading with? Right. And I can tell by your smile, maybe that ego is another topic that is. That is often near and dear to your heart, because I think ego is one of those. It can be both a barrier and an asset when it comes to these kinds of negotiations, conflicts, conversations.

Absolutely. And so, listeners, if you like this episode, make sure to leave a review and specifically say, beth, you should write a book on humility. That is my vote. But of course, I respect your decision to choose something else. So, Beth, thank you, my friend, for coming on this show. But before you go, let the listeners know again about the podcast, your website, and how they can get in touch.

Yeah, so the podcast is, like I said, how can I say this? And so you can go to. How can I say this.com or search on whatever platform you listen to your podcasts. And actually, the way Kwame and I originally connected was when I was operating as the Introvert Entrepreneur, and he was a guest on my show at least two or three times, and he's been a guest on how can I say this? So we've got a long standing conversation going on here, and so you can check out the book the Introvert Entrepreneur as well. So probably the best way to reach out and experience what I've got to offer is through that podcast.

Fantastic, Beth. Thank you again, my friend. Really appreciate it.

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