How to say NO: Nicole Walters' Guide to Negotiating Better Deals and Relationships

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. Thanks for joining us today. With over 10 million downloads and listeners from more than 180 different countries, it's dedicated listeners just like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of of the American Negotiation Institute. Now, before we get into today's insightful conversation, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives. Have you ever found yourself wishing that you could navigate those high stakes conversations with more confidence? Or perhaps you're looking to empower your team with the art of persuasion and conflict resolution? At the American Negotiation Institute, we've crafted specialized keynotes and workshops tailored for those very needs. We've transformed the negotiation skills of professionals worldwide, and we're eager to do the same for you. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And our goal is to help you improve your lives and the lives of those around you, one difficult conversation at a time. Don't let another challenging conversation leave you second guessing. Click the link in the description to discover how we can help you find confidence in conflict, negotiate better deals, and have stronger relationships. Because in the world of business, every conversation counts. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Nicole, thanks for joining us today.

Oh my gosh, it's my joy. Thanks for having me.

It is our pleasure, my friend. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do. Sure.

So I am a New York Times bestselling author of my memoir, Nothing is Missing. That is really honestly my most recent venture. But I established myself in the Internet space, if you will, as the CEO and founder of Inherent Learning Company, a digital education firm for everyday entrepreneurs. And I scaled that company to multi million within a year and it's still in existence 10 years later. And I'm really grateful to be able to serve people there every single day.

I love it. I love it. And listeners, my friend Nicole is very humble. There's so much more and we will explore through this interview because this is exciting because you do a ton of interviews. You have an incredible podcast and your stories out there, and I'm excited to explore it through the realm of negotiation to see how negotiation kind of shaped your success. And in the beginning when we were chatting, we were talking about a concept for this episode and we're going with negotiating to the top with the power of no. So how about we just start off with conceptualizing that concept?

Yeah, absolutely. So it's interesting because this is probably the first topic podcast I've ever done where people have asked me for sort of the why behind the what, the how. And people always want to know, like, well, what else have you accomplished and what's new and, oh, that's cool. But I really love that you're like, no, but how'd you get there, girl? So, yeah, I've been really fortunate to have the opportunity of clear vision. I've always known from the beginning that it was really important to me to make sure that I was impactful, but in a way that was sustainable and profitable and in alignment with my vision, which meant that I wasn't just executing on opportunities as they showed up and presented themselves to me, but that I was going out there and creating my own. So that was my first angle to negotiating my way to the top.

Love this. And there's a lot of brilliance in here, Nicole. So I don't want to overlook this because people say, okay, clear vision, move on. And then you give them some money that is in a location that is outside of their vision. They're like, but I like money, so I'm going to do this.

That's right. Or how can I make that work? You know, like, how do I bend this thing to fit into my mind model? And that can be your downfall.

Yes. So what makes it so hard for people to stay true to their vision even though there are opportunities coming their way?

Let's be honest. Money is a need, right? It's a draw. But if you aren't someone who looks at it as a tool, a means to an end to give you more options, you'll actually end up trading those options for money. And I've always known from the beginning that I wanted to make sure I had a life where I had the flexibility, where even if I was was filming a TV show or writing a book or showing up on stage, that I didn't have to bend to the people who were hiring me to be there, give the opportunity, and possibly compromise my values or my family or my goals or my health simply for a dollar. And the best way to make sure that doesn't happen is have dollars of your own.

Yes, 100%. Yeah. And I think that's a really important point, because when you think about it through the perspective of just leverage, it's if you have leverage, then you don't feel the need to make these types of concessions. Let's say there's somebody out here who's listening to this and saying, all right, it makes sense. I have a vision now. But still, when it comes to those actual conversations, mentally, emotionally, psychologically, I have trouble staying focused. And I start to be persuaded by other people who are imposing their will on my vision. So how did you essentially negotiate with yourself to get that fortitude to stay strong in the moment?

So that's great. And there are two things that I always keep to mind. The first was taught to me by my several mentors I've had. Some were billionaires, several hundred million. And they always say the same thing, which is when someone wants to buy you, when someone wants in on what you have, that's usually not the right time to sell. It usually means that you're working with something and you don't want to give up. Like you said, the leverage. And the leverage isn't just financial. The leverage is the autonomy to be able to say, look, I am an equal player at this game, you know, at this table, because obviously you've invited me here because there's something I have that you need to utilize in order to get to your next level. So that was the first thing. And then the second thing that I found honestly, over time, you know, I think when I was young and excited and eager, it was easier for me to flex on this one. But as I've gotten older, I'm like, I really need to apply. It is that if they can't give me 24 hours to think on the idea, the plan, the contract, whatever it is, then they're not an ideal partner for me anyways. I don't like to do things from a knee jerk place. I really do believe in the power of sleeping on it, on preying on it, on talking about it with my partner, my family, my team. And not that I need everyone's opinion because that can also be your downfall. Right? But if nothing else, if you can't give a contract a little bit of breathing room and they're seeking to urgently get you to sign it, odds are that contract is not going to do you well in the future.

So this is really important because that goes beyond dollars and cents. That talks about value, that talks about values, and it also talks about giving somebody the right to think through a decision so they can make the right decision for you. And so when we're out here having these negotiations, we have to make sure that we're recognizing it's not just about the deal, it's also about the partner. Is this the kind of person that I want to work with, because if they're pressuring me in this situation, it's likely that behavior is going to be a pattern in the future.

Absolutely. And also keeping in mind that, you know, we get all this messaging from society all the time, Hustle culture, seize the day, grab the opportunity. If you don't take it today, it'll be lost. And I have to tell you, just that has not proven to be true. You know, if someone clearly understands your value and you're bringing a unique value proposition, something to add to them that they don't have or that they're seeking out, they can wait 24 hours. And honestly, in a lot of my contracts, I found that it's enhanced the respect that they've had for me, that I. I'm not coming to that table. Just signing suddenly, it can even up the value of that contract. You can ask for more money, but a lot can come to you. And sometimes I'm waiting because I know the answer is yes, and I want to come with increased peace around that signature, not just seeking a yes or no. It just. It feels good to sit in the moment for a little bit.

And I love the fact that you are recognizing the value of the mutuality of respect, because we all should come to the negotiation table with respect, but sometimes we don't get that same respect reciprocated to us. And letting somebody know that you are strong enough to slow things down and operate at your pace, even if they don't like it, it does often lead to a level of respect that's necessary for a really stable and healthy relationship going forward.

Absolutely. I always say that, you know, women become really dangerous when we start approaching 40. You know, because you've done a lot, you've had kids, you survived a lot, and you start getting this sort of decreased filter around, really caring what people think. And I found that for me, that really does include almost articulating. Sometimes when I'm walking away, you know, if someone's saying, hey, we really need you to sign this, like, we would hate for you to lose this opportunity the minute that it starts catching that energy. It's very easy for me to say, you know, if that's what it's looking like, then I'm very comfortable walking away entirely right now. But there's no way I'm signing this contract without a solid 24 hours to sit on it. And if that's what it comes down to, I totally understand your need to move on. I'm excited. Excited about the opportunity. But I love coming into my partnerships feeling really good, really understood, and really rested behind my decision. And if someone can look in your face when you say something that rational to them and say, no, you need to sign now, hightail it the other way because that thing's going to be no good for sure.

Absolutely. Yes, yes, yes. And so I want to go back to a couple of things that you mentioned, because talks, it, it speaks to the power and leverage that you're bringing to these conversations. You talked about autonomy and you talked about options. And so talk about the power of autonomy and options when it comes to the negotiations we have.

Well, options tend to fall into two categories, whether it's options around time or options around money. And what's great is anybody can create more money. So whether you decide to work really hard in your 9 to 5 job to increase your revenue and your funds and your income, so that, that way when you go to a contract and negotiate, the money is more flexible. But none of us can negotiate time. So. So for me, the value, if you will, is I want to be able to have that flexibility with my time. I know I can make money. I know I can make a lot of it. It really is just more that when my time feels like it's out of my hands and I don't have the ability to get up and walk away when my kids need me or rest when my body calls for it, I just know that that contract is not in service of me. So that has become a major focus for me whenever I'm going into any sort of. I mean, it can be negotiation around a TV show, which I've done, my book deal. If they're not willing to say he it, you need space, you need time, you need room. And we recognize that there is no amount of money that will get you to compromise that. It's just put me in a really great position to negotiate well on my behalf.

Yes, yes, yes. Okay, now this is going to be the fun part. And I know what you're thinking. You're saying, but we have been already having so much fun right now.

I'm like, what does this mean?

So let's talk about the story, the narrative, because people know about you quitting your job and then translating this into the multimillion dollar business. But now I want you to tell that story from the perspective of negotiations and difficult conversations. What were the difficult conversations that made Nicole Walters who she is today?

Well, I think a great example would be the conversation I had around selling my business. And I talk about this, in my book, nothing is missing. It was one of the most difficult moments of my life because I found myself heavily immersed in this very contract negotiation that was pitting up against revenue, funds versus time and values and mission. And essentially I'd been an entrepreneur at that point for about four or five years. I'd gained a lot of traction. I had a business that was totally and completely debt free. Started with just $24 and bringing in over a million in revenue consistently, you know, and scaled in a way that was pretty advantageous and positive, looking to a buyer. And I was fortunate. I had a buyer that was interested, that wanted me to come on board, work with them, and make some transitional changes from the product. And I mean, everything about it on paper looked like a dream. I knew that other people would kill to be in my position, and this person had accomplished, and I still respect them to this day so much. Where I knew it would, it looked like a fast track opportunity. You know, it looked like if I came into this and said yes, not only would I have the things that on paper sound good, financial security, instant visibility, products made, team support, as well as having the ability to kind of hand over being CEO and step into the role of being talent a little more. And we all know being CEO isn't fun every day, you know, because you're dealing with people and paychecks and bills and no pto, you know, and so these are all the things that to me, I was like, gosh, like, isn't this what the money's all about? Isn't this what it's for? So I'm able to have my values, do the work, but not have all the ick. But when I really sat with it after stepping back from the contract and the offer, I knew that what it was was that I was scared to be my own CEO. That after about five years into entrepreneurship, I realized some of the harder parts. You know, managing a team, worrying about, you know, making sure I can cover their benefits, and dealing with the marketing plans and just I felt like I'd been doing a lot of paperwork and admin and I was losing some of the fun of being a talent. And when that happened, I said, oh, well, if the only reason you're really selling this thing is because you're afraid of being your own CEO, that's not a good enough reason. And in the book, you can learn more about kind of what the outcome was. But it was where I applied, exactly what I'm talking about here. I stepped back and that entire contract negotiation Took eight months before I turned in my no, because I kept saying, give me more details, let me step back. And they stayed in with me and they were very sad when I declined. But you know, now almost seven years later, looking at where I am and what I've accomplished, you know, and the fact that I have full ownership over that rather than shared ownership, it was the right decision all the way.

This is so validating because as you were saying this, it was triggering all of my traumas. Yeah. People think it's such a great position to be CEO.

Yes. I'm like, no, no, no. It's not for everyone. And people say entrepreneurship isn't for the weak. And it's true. It's not. And the world needs intrapreneurs. We need people who are happy to work within companies and lend their gifts. And there is no shame in saying, look, based on benefits. My kids needs whatever I need my 9 to 5 job, like, I get that. But I will also say that being a CEO, the hard parts are really not just money related. Some of it is the motivational stuff of being like, oh, you're the one. Like you're the one who's responsible for the things. Like even if you counted on other people or you expected something to work, you are always the person who is the backup plan, the fill in the gap or the, you know, money maker. Your name is on the line. And that can be a huge mental stress and a huge mental load. And I understand why people don't want to do it. I understand completely. And I just know that I'm cut a certain way and I'm meant to. So I stay in the game. But I was forced to make that call. And that was the call. It wasn't about the money, it wasn't about the opportunity. It was the call of are you willing to stay true to the thing that you said you wanted to do from day one?

Hello, my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question. Have you ever wondered how to elevate your team's negotiation game and how you can help the folks on your team have better, difficult conversations? At the American Negotiation Institute, we offer transformative keynotes and workshops tailored to empower professionals with top tier negotiation and conflict resolution skills. Whether it's a keynote for your next event or hands on training for your team, we've got you covered. Don't just negotiate. Master the arts with with the American Negotiation Institute. Click the link in the description to find out more. Elevate, negotiate and succeed. Yes. I think one of the things I want to highlight here for the listeners is the fact that it took a lot of internal negotiation and understanding who you are as a person and accepting that in order to understand the right decision to make. Because you have a lot of noise from society saying, hey, this is the dream. This is the perfect end to the chapter. This is what everybody wants, wants. And then you say, hey, that might be what everybody else might want, that might be what society might prescribe in this situation, but that's not what's right for me. And so it's very impressive and admirable that you were still able to walk away. And then when you add that additional psychological challenge of the fact that there's some sunk cost fallacy, the more you invest, you invested eight months. That's a long time.

And if there's anything I regret, I have zero regrets about the no when I tell you I sleep easy at night, never think about it. When I think of how long it took me to get to the no when I knew the no from the beginning, I mean, it's a journey I'm grateful for because I will never take that long again. You know, I will never take eight months again. Because I was cycling. It took me, I would say, probably five months to even realize that it was an internal negotiation and not about the external factors. For the first five months, I literally was playing with, you know, well, is it the money or is it the location or is it the job role or. And I realized none of those things mattered. If I didn't know whether or not this was something I wanted to do. If 10 years down the line, I could look back and say, I like who I am because I did made this contract. And that was something I could have decided if I'd focused on that factor within 30 days. You know, that did not take eight months to decide. But I was looking at everything else kind of. I was evaluating the contract as if it was for a client and not myself. And it's just very different. When it's an entrepreneurship, you need to look at it from an internal standpoint. And that internal, like you said, that internal negotiation, knowing what you're bringing to the table before you arrive at the table, that backend work is absolutely critical. And I'm very grateful now. I mean, when a contract comes in, I can pretty much give a yes or no to even pursuing it any further pretty quickly because I'm so clear again, like I said at the top of our chat on what is it that I need to be doing and where do I need to be standing unwaveringly for the next few years? And that just really helps. No sunk cost there.

That's great. That is great. And now I think I don't even know if my listeners know this story. About three or four years ago, I went to Hollywood. I was pitching a show, made it to, like, the final rounds, talking to the executives, didn't work out. The feedback. It was a conflict resolution show. And the feedback was they were concerned I wouldn't hold the drama, and I would resolve the conflict.

They're like, we just want you to, like, flip a table and set something on fire. Can we guarantee that there'll be tables flipped? I'm like, no, not if I'm doing my job well.

Exactly. Yeah. Kwame, the unhinged negotiator. What in the world? That's not good, right?

An action movie. That's an action movie.

Exactly. Exactly. So Hollywood is tough. It is tough. And you were able to negotiate a deal without an agent, which is, like. Is rare, unheard of. Right. So how are you able to make that work?

So the first thing is understanding all the pieces that the players are going to ask for. So I did a lot of heavy backend research before going in, knowing that they were going to ask me things like, what is the conflict of the show? These are some basic storytelling elements. You know, I come from a theater background as well, so I understood some of those pieces that they're looking to tell a story that they don't care how successful I am. If the story is great. Look at what's on TV right now. I mean, people who have literally, you know, it's not about the accolades. You know what I mean? Like, it's really. It's not about the credibility. Heck, you don't even really need to be what you say you are. You know, will this be something that will sell and being prepared to negotiate from the standpoint of what it is that they want? You talk about this all the time. What is it that they're looking for? What is it that they want? And their outcome is money, population, fame, something they can sell to advertisers. Making sure that the demographic match and then speaking to those things and knowing that I would have liberties around what show I would write once I got the yes, but going in conceptually, I just need to make sure I hit those corporate points of this will make money. It will sell to the advertisers. It's the right demographic. I have the marketing know how to make sure that this concept aligns with what you're looking for. And being able to keep that emotional distance from the story I was selling, which was me being a businesswoman and a mom and running this empire with this chaotic family and all of these different pieces was important to me. And I cared about how it was showcased and shared, but they really didn't care. It was just another show pitch in their deck. What they cared about was that my show pitch was gonna make them the most money that year.

Nicole, dropping gems. Let us rewind the tape here. So one of the things that's really important to understand about power and leverage is it's dynamic. It's not static. It shifts with time and circumstance. And what you said was absolutely brilliant because you said, hey, I understand what they need in order to feel comfortable making a deal. I'm not going to focus on my needs at that time. I'm going to pitch from their perspective. How is this a win for them? Because you know that once you get the show, that's when you can have the creative liberties and do what you want to do. But you recognize that if you try to push your agenda at that time, then you may not have ever gotten the deal. So you had to make sure that you negotiated the right thing at the right time.

Yes. And that's so hard, especially when you're an entrepreneur. You have some of that creative element that's akin to musicians or painters or dancers. Where we have a vision, we want to see it come to life in a certain way. And wanting to get people on board, you think you just need to get them excited, get them excited to see the vision. Or let me create a sizzle reel, you know, like a demo video or a painting or storyboard, Something to help them visually tap in. But at the end of the day, people can buy into your vision, but if they aren't able to actually sell your vision and make money with it, it doesn't really matter. And I'm grateful that I come from a corporate background and I've spent a lot of time in sales and negotiation. So it allowed me to take my personal hat off and realize there is space to be creative. That always comes up. But you won't be building or creating a single thing if you don't get that. Yes. And that buy in on the front end. So that was my focus, and it worked. We spent four years between the pitch negotiation, sale, and filming process before my show actually went to air. So four years from that very first email saying, hey, I think we have a show concept. Can we work on this? And when I say several nos hopping from networks to we're premiering at 10:30 on Thursday on USA Network, so you got to stick with it.

That is impressive. And I think it speaks to the fact that resilience and patience, those are quintessential elements of effective negotiation all the time.

Right? It's the last man standing. And coming from an immigrant background, being first generation, if there's anything I've learned in my career, it's that I may not come to the table with the fanciest items or the biggest, coolest team or whatever, but no one's going to outwork me if I'm able to have this staying power where I will. I mean, in some of my first speaking gigs I used to do, I would show up to help them set up and I'd stay after to help them sweep and box up. And they wouldn't believe that I was the keynote speaker or that I was on that panel. And it's because if you're willing to show that those very people are the people where as their business grew, they remembered me and I got to grow with them. So people think that so many things around negotiation and building a brand and being successful happen strictly in the contract or around numbers, around a specific opportunity. But negotiation starts from the minute you walk in that door, pick up that phone or send that first email. When people get a sense of who you are, it helps them decide if they even want to continue working with you.

Absolutely. And I want to speak to the mindset that you have in the final moments of this interview because the mentality that you bring to the conversation is profound. It's confident, it's strong. And many people who look like us often have a self defeating mentality when it comes to these difficult conversations. And if you already feel like you've lost or you think that they don't respect you, then a lot of times we go in with that energy and it's almost guaranteed failure. It's a self fulfilling prophecy. So where did you get this strength and confidence to advocate for yourself in these conversations?

I grew up as a child of immigrants and my parents just didn't have it. I grew up without them having money or connections or resources. So if I didn't make it myself, it wasn't going to happen. And now I'm in a place where if someone isn't going to help me or if someone's not trying to partner or lend their talents, I'm still going to get it done. They just have an Opportunity to be a part of it. And that's the attitude that I carry in there, is my job is to help explain how you have an opportunity to be a part of something that otherwise you wouldn't have had. I've gone into pitch meetings and I've said to them, are you sure you want to be the person who said no to the next Oprah? I've gone into book deal meetings and I've said, no matter what, this book is going to make a million dollars. The question is, are you going to help? I say it and I mean it. You know, I say it with bass in my voice and it's because I will stand on my nose until I reach my yes. Because if they don't understand and because that's the only reason they're saying no is because they don't understand what I'm bringing to the table. So I'm happy to continue to explain it different ways to give them time and opportunity to reach better understanding, to tap into or modify what's required, help them understand. But the question isn't whether or not I'm the person they should bet on. The question is, are they going to bet on it now or are they going to watch someone else who did? And that's how I approach all of my negotiations. And I've gotten a lot of yeses because of it.

Oh my. And for me as a podcaster, I know when to end a podcast. I do not think we could do better than that. Nicole, this was so, so good. So before you go, can you remind the listeners about you and how they can get in touch and benefit from the resources you have?

Yes. Thank you. So of course I have my own podcast. It's called the Nicole Walters Podcast. You can tune in from episode one. We are in season three and you can catch up. Whole story. I'm a great storyteller and little bite sized bits, about 20 minutes, easy, fun to listen to. And of course you can pick up my book anywhere books are sold. It's the New York Times bestseller. It's called Nothing is Missing.

Amazing. Nicole, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with us. Really appreciate it.

Thank you so much for having me. It was fun.

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