How to Set Boundaries and Still Be You

Hey, I'm Kwame Christian, and you are about to step into the world of Negotiate Anything, the number one negotiation podcast in the world, where we teach you how to make difficult conversations easier while getting more of what you want in the process. Each episode is packed with practical tips and strategies from the experts. We delve into negotiation, conflict resolution, and leadership skills that are crucial in both business and in life. Whether you're closing a deal, managing a team, or navigating personal relationships, Negotiate Anything provides you with the tools you need to succeed. Our conversations are real, relatable, and most importantly, rooted in practicality. So if you're ready to transform your conversations and elevate your negotiation skills, join me on Negotiate Anything. Subscribe and listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you love to listen. Let's make every conversation a winning negotiation.

So my name is Melissa Harriford, and I started my love affair with negotiation about 23 years ago. Now. I was fortunate enough early in my career to start working for a company that taught negotiation skills in corporate settings. So I taught people, salespeople, how to negotiate more effectively with their clients, procurement purchasing professionals how to negotiate more effectively with their vendors, and internal teams how to negotiate with one another. So within Fortune 1000 companies, we were teaching people how to do negotiating skills, how to use negotiating skills in those business situations. Now I say love affair, my love affair with negotiation skills. Because my, my experience teaching those people how to negotiate more effectively touched me at a very personal and professional level. Because for 20 years, I was fortunate enough to work in this company. And I know you're probably thinking, 20 years, that's crazy. Who says they work for one company for that amount of time? But I think you can relate to this and your listeners can probably relate to this when I say that negotiation skills are endlessly fascinating. Yep, it really never stops being interesting. So every class I taught, every salesperson, procurement internal team member that I taught over that 20 years came out of a skills training class and said to me, melissa, this class changed my life. Not only did it change the way I'm going to negotiate with my customers or vendors. Fill in the blank. It changed the way I'm going to talk to my speaker spouse, my peers, my boss, my kids. These skills are about everyday agreements that we're able to either use to bring us together or to drive us apart. I love it.

I agree 100%. That's phenomenal. We kind of touched on this, but I want to pull it out a little bit more. So how would you define negotiation, negotiations are everyday conversations.

In fact, now the courses that I teach my company is called Connector Conversations because not only are you negotiating once a year for a raise, once every five years for a new car, they're not only the milestone agreements that you have to come up with, they're getting alignment on my team when I have no direct authority over these people. They're the skills that I use to help my family decide where we're going to go on vacation. They're the conversations that I have every day that help me get what I want, but also help us build a stronger relationship.

I love it. Yes. And for the listeners out there, Melissa and I were joking before because we had a call a couple weeks ago talking about this and it was set for 15 minutes, but it lasted probably about 45 minutes because we just couldn't stop talking about it. So Melissa definitely has that passion. I'm excited to dig deeply into that today.

Yes, I love it. Let's do it.

Today you're going to focus on boundaries. So what is a boundary in negotiation?

That's a great question, Kwame. So boundaries in negotiation. Now, the word boundaries has a lot of different meanings. So if you go into self help literature, boundaries are about making sure you're clear about what people can and cannot do to you. And I like to put those. I like to talk about boundaries. If you think of yourself like a tree, okay, so a tree grows deep root roots. And your roots are what will hold you upward in a storm when things get tense in a conversation, when people do things to you that you don't like, those are your morals and your values and those are your personal boundaries. Now if you think about your tree standing strong in a storm when things get tense and you take that analogy and put yourself into an everyday conversation, I like to think about the negotiation boundaries that we set like a fence. So if you're a property owner and you want to define the boundaries around your property, you put a fence up, right? And the difference between the fence and the roots are your roots aren't going to move around. You have morals and values that keep you who you are. But the fence needs to be able to move around a little bit. Maybe you buy the property next door and you need to make your fence bigger. Maybe you decide that you need to contract your fence a little bit. So as your agreement changes, the boundaries of your fence change. And you need to be flexible. You need to be able to put in a gate to get in and out of your property. So keeping in mind this idea of the Fence will help us to define what a boundary is in your negotiation. So I'll pause there and make sure that's clear. Any questions about that?

Yeah, I like this, and I especially like the metaphor. It helps me to keep it kind of clear in my mind. I really enjoy that. So in your opinion, why are they so important?

So if we go back to our fence analogy, when you go into a negotiation and you don't know where your fence is, it's just an open field that goes on forever. It's really hard to be clear about what it is that you want. So I think about boundaries in negotiation with three components around being clear. It's what you think to be clear in your own mind, what you say, what comes out of your mouth, that is it clear what you're saying, and then what you do. How do you confirm agreement as you move forward, clarify what your next steps are, and things like that? So within those three dimensions, essentially, being clear will help to set your boundaries. And without boundaries, without understanding what it is that you want and what the other person wants, it's very hard to come up with an agreement. It's like walking into a conference room and saying, okay, what are we here to talk about? And having the entire world at your fingertips instead of being really specific about what it is that you need, want, or expect.

I like this. Yeah. And I think clarity is something that's a little bit underrated when it comes to the way that we communicate. One of my favorite sayings with regard to communication is that the most difficult thing about communication is the fact that we often believe it has occurred. And I think that speaks to clarity. So how can we speak in a fashion that's a little clearer for our audience?

Okay, well, let's talk about that, because this is what you say when you are. Well, let's start with what you think, Kwame, if that's okay. Because everything starts when it comes to setting boundaries. Everything starts in your own mind. And if there's one thing that's proven over and over again in negotiation studies, where they're looking at the outcomes that people are able to come up with, it's that when you ask for more, you get more. So you are less likely to get something if you don't ask for it. Right. Sounds like common sense.

Right, right.

But how do you decide what it is you're going to ask for? It starts in your own mind, what you're thinking. Right. So coming up with really solid ideas about what you want to get out of the negotiation. Now, again, Your boundaries may change a little bit, you may need to move your fence a little bit, but going in with a clear image of what you want to get out of that negotiation is going to help you get right.

And this speaks a lot to preparation as well.

Absolutely.

Because that's where you're going to start thinking through these things and strategizing and figuring out exactly where your. Your boundaries are going to be.

Exactly, exactly. The number one success indicator is whether or not you plan and planning is in your mind. It all starts with what you're thinking.

Right. And studies have shown that too. They've had numerous negotiation studies where the only differentiating factor was the amount of time given to prop prepare. And it had objectively verifiable results. Demonstrating that preparation significantly increases your likelihood of success.

Absolutely. And I saw that over and over again in the classes that I taught. I would always notice who takes the full amount of time to prepare. And is there negotiated settlement affected by the time they took to prepare. So we would do case studies and role plays and where you put people together, and I would give you five minutes or 10 minutes to prepare. Preparation time almost always lined up with the success of the agreement, not only in dollars, but in satisfaction levels. How happy are you with the agreement? How sustainable is it? Is this something that you're disagreeing to now in the moment, but can't actually be implemented? The creativity of the settlement, all of those things will impact it by the amount of climate you took.

Yeah, I agree 100%. One thing about negotiation, that it makes it less, maybe less cool, definitely more accessible, is that I don't go into these conversations freestyling it. Everything has been thought through. I like to play chess. And they always say every move must have a purpose. And that's the way it should be in your conversations. And you can't just make meaningful moves off the fly. I don't know anybody that's that smart. And so negotiations can be won and lost simply in the preparation. And if you do it the right way, the conversation is almost perfunctory.

Yeah. And I love what you said about the chess game because you can spend a huge amount of time planning, but you don't know what the other person was going to do. Right, Right. You don't know. They may not. There may be a hundred chess moves that you've memorized, but the human element brings in this level of unpredictability. Right. You think that they're going to say one thing and then bam, you're surprised by something out of the Blue. That you were not expecting. So the more you plan, the more confident you are. Even when things go long. Right. Like, imagine you're going into a negotiation with your boss and you're negotiating over. I mean, let's just be simple and say, like, your salary or you're asking for a promotion. What happens when your boss's boss shows up in the room and there's two of them and you're sitting there like, oh, my God, I wasn't expecting this. Now I have this human element. I mean, it could be anything. People tell me in negotiation, things that in conversations, things that I was never expecting. I ask a question, and they respond with something that is totally out of the blue. If you have a relationship with them, they may confide in you. Well, I really need to get a great deal on this because I'm up for promotion. And if I don't show my boss what a great negotiator I am, my promotion is in jeopardy. And you think, like, wow, I can't believe this person just told me that. But it really helps me. I can come up with a more creative agreement that's going to make you look good.

Right, exactly. And for me, as an attorney, something that I often run into is the realization that a lot of times, no matter how much I prepare, I'm going to be surprised because clients aren't always truthful.

There's that.

Yeah. The human element, sometimes on your own side, can throw you off. And I think approaching these conversations with curiosity, and I know we're going to get into that more in later in the conversation, is helpful because I don't go in thinking I know the whole situation. I know I have imperfect knowledge, because if I went in and started making demands and making all these affirmative statements, they're going to be like, hey, Kwame, did you know XYZ well, sir? No, I didn't.

Right. So what do you do in that moment? You're like, I didn't plan for that.

Right, Exactly.

You know, it's interesting. I had a colleague tell me the other day, she was working with a client who was negotiating for a salary, a package in a new job. And they asked her, what was your previous salary? And believe it or not, that's a pretty straightforward question that you almost always get asked. But she was not prepared to answer that, and she lied. Oh, okay. So that, on the surface, really is bad. Like, you don't ever want to lie in a negotiation, especially with someone that you're going to have an ongoing relationship with, which is probably 99% of our negotiations. So, you know, not starting the relationship on the foundation of a lie. But then what made it even worse is they asked her to show her previous paychecks. I know, right. That really illustrates the power of planning. What are you going to say in response to their toughest questions? And I love to tell people what's the worst thing they're going to ask you. The more you can be prepared and think through what your responses are, the more confident you're going to be, the more you're able to take in that human element and say, I wasn't expecting that. So just hoping they're not going to ask you those tough questions is not an effective strategy.

Right. So I think everybody that's going to be listening is going to be wondering, what did she do? Where do you go from there? What. What happened?

Right. Well, I advised her not to share it, to say, I'm not comfortable sharing that. And just to be firm and be clear, I'm not comfortable sharing that.

That was kind of her only option at that point.

Right. And people can push back on you, but they typically won't force you to do. I mean, they couldn't force her to do it. And I think what her response eventually was, I'm not comfortable sharing that information with you. It's not relevant to the job of applying for today.

Right.

And often if you're silent after you say that, you don't give a million reasons. You just use silence, which, you know, another common negotiation tactic I've heard you talk a lot about is most people won't push you on. On something if you're clear. Right. And that kind of leads into, like, being clear about what you have to say.

Absolutely. Yeah. So let's move on to that one.

So being clear, we talked about being clear about what you think, being clear about what you say. Now, there are a lot of things that we say, and that is one of them. Just using silence, being quiet, not giving a million reasons, especially when we're nervous. Here's that human element coming up again, is that it is very easy to be clear about what you say. Let's use an example of we have a deadline coming up, and I'd like you to get something to me by Friday. So, Kwame, I'd like you to get me the report by Friday. Very clear. Right. Just quiet. Don't say anything else. But what we tend to do is give a million reasons.

Right, Right.

So, Kwame, I'd like you to get me that report by Friday because my boss is Coming in Friday afternoon, and I've got to prepare this, the rest of the report over the weekend. I've got this meeting Monday morning, first thing I've got to fly out for, you know, and it. And then it becomes so convoluted that you either start accidentally negotiating against yourself or if the person is objecting to you, they're going to jump on the weakest reason and fight against that.

Yeah. And we see that all the time.

Yeah.

And I think on the other. On the other person's side, that's a good example of where. Where silence helps. If somebody just keeps on talking, let them talk. And sometime it's almost like. Imagine if it was a boxing match and you're just watching your opponent hit themselves. It's like, are you going to jump in and say you're not supposed to do that, or you just got to kind of sit there and let them score for you? And the way I think about it a lot of times with these points is that when it really comes down to it, when you're trying to be clear. And another thing I would add is concise, There really aren't that many points or reasons why you need something. So first of all, it doesn't necessarily need lengthy explanation, but if you were pushed against the wall and you had to offer explanation, there are probably only one or two legitimate reasons that could be delivered in one or two sentences.

Exactly.

And so in that negotiation, when you feel obligated to continue to speak and give more and more reasons, now what happens, you've essentially. If this is like using an example, like arrows in your quiver, now you've shot all your arrows, and now if somebody pushes back, what else can you say? You've already said all you needed to say, and now it looks like you have nothing else to justify it with.

Right, Exactly. Yeah. Very well said. Big concise is a powerful part of being clear in what you say. Another thing that is really powerful now, this. I wouldn't say mostly, but it does mostly. I will say mostly applies to women. And I really want to make a point of saying not just women, but mostly to women, is that we use a lot of softeners in our language. Things like just. I just wanted to go over these numbers with you. And we use a little. I'd like to take a little bit of your time. We say sorry a lot. I'm sorry for interrupting. I'm sorry this isn't as thought through as it should be, but I have an idea. There are all these verbal softeners that we use in our conversation that really diminish our confidence and our power when we're talking to other people. So this is around being clear and concise and specific that try not to use those softeners. Notice if you use softeners of your conversation and try to just take them out, instead of saying, I just need a little bit of your time, say I need a little bit of your time, or not even a little bit, I need five minutes. Let's be specific. Right. I need five minutes of your time.

Yeah. That does a world of difference when it comes to communicating clearly and confidently, too. Because another thing kind of adding onto that would be the use of qualifiers. And so it's like, I just need a little bit of your time because I need to ask you this question. I don't want to bother you, but it's like, whoa, it's okay, it's okay. And I think this goes to two major things. So it's nerves. We tend to talk more and talk faster when we're nervous. Also confidence too, because we don't feel as though the fact by itself can stand alone. And so we need to prop it up with more and more words. But when we really take some time and analyze the words we added, really, it's just fluff.

Yeah. So let's think back to our fence that we're building here. And the time that we're putting into preparing and planning and building our fence is going to make you feel more confident. So if you go into a negotiation or a conversation and you're clear about what you want, it's going to be so much easier to just say it. Right. You don't need to use all these verbal softeners and all these qualifiers. And I'd like to offer a tip for your listeners to use. I'd like to. This is a very powerful phrase that you can use in almost any situation. And I find it particularly powerful to use when we're negotiating with peers or trying to come up with an agreement with somebody over whom we have no authority, someone on our team, or maybe you're hiring a graphic designer to do a project for you. You don't any of these situations where you are negotiating on everyday agreements using I'd like to or in order to ask for what you want will really help you get clear. Be clear and be specific.

That is a game changer because I'm somebody who uses a lot of those softeners. Just to be completely honest. My thing is just I always use the word just, especially in emails. I See it and it rears its ugly head and it laughs at me every time. I'm like, I don't know what to do with you, but I'd like to. That solves that problem. It's not minimizing my ask, it's just making very, very clear. That's a. It's a perfect substitute.

Yeah. I cannot tell you how many times I erase just out of my emails, so I totally relate. And I also erase. Sorry. Out of my emails all the time. Starting an email. It's been two days. I'm so sorry. It's taken me two days to get back to you. Is that adding any value to the conversation? Two days is probably nothing to the other person. They're not thinking about me. They've sent off their response and they're going to be happy when they hear back from me. So do I really need to apologize for this or can I just say what I need to say?

It's a great point. Hello, my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question.

Question.

Have you ever wondered how to elevate your team's negotiation game and how you can help the folks on your team have better, difficult conversations? At the American Negotiation Institute, we offer transformative keynotes and workshops tailored to empower professionals with top tier negotiation and conflict resolution skills. Whether it's a keynote for your next event or hands on training for your team, we've got you covered. Don't just negotiate. Master the arts with the American Negotiation Institute. Click the link in the description to find out more. Elevate, negotiate and succeed. You know, to think about this fence metaphor, and you tell me what you think about this too, because it seems as though whenever we add softeners to our statements, it's almost like the fence starts to bend a little bit. And so if a fence is standing, just sitting there, protecting what it's supposed to protect and is doing its job, it is a fence. That's all it is. It protects. You don't question it. You walk by the fence, you're like, oh, this is a boundary. This is a barrier. But then if you see a fence starting to bend backwards, then you start to question, is this a barrier or just a minor impediment? Because this is giving. I'm sensing a lot of give in this fence. Maybe I could just walk through it.

It's true. Very true. Yeah. And at the same time, our boundaries need to be movable as we find out more information. So we go back to that human element. So yes. You want your boundaries to be strong. You want to make sure the other person knows they can't bend it easily. At the same time, you've got this human element where people tell you things you weren't expecting or you find out information. A really common one is you walk into a meeting with someone and they say, I've got this deadline. You're like, whoa, I can't believe you shared that with me. That's amazing. Like, I know they've got a deadline. This is great because this will help to redefine my boundaries. I need to rethink what it was that I was going to propose based on this new information. So I was going to give you a two month time frame for this project, but you need it in three weeks. Well, that's going to change everything about the boundaries that I'm going to be proposing. So being able to move your fence slightly as you find out more information. Another example is, let's say you are a freelancer. I know there's a lot of entrepreneurs who listen to this or people who have side hustles who listen to this podcast and you make a proposal to a potential client and the client pushes back on price. Right? Happens all the time. Well, I wasn't thinking about spending that much. That's more than I was thinking. I can't afford it. So you have your boundaries and what you have included in the proposal and they don't want to pay that price. So at that point, you may want to move your boundaries in and say, well, I can do another proposal at this lower price for you. And it's not going to include these things that I outlined in the first proposal. I think that's really powerful for people to use because you don't want to lower your price. And that's true in the corporate world as well. And salespeople that I trained for for many, many years would say, okay, the original proposal that I'm giving you includes all of these things. If you want to lower the price, we need to change the scope of the proposal and not just lower the price.

Right. And I'm loving this analogy with this fence. I'm going to use this fence forever now. Because when it comes to flexibility on price, and really any issue that we're dealing with in these negotiations, we need to have an idea of the overall amount of value we want to recoup from this transaction. And even if it's something social, we want to know, we have to have a good idea of our boundaries. So like you said, the Fen doesn't break, but it does move once you get new information. So for the entrepreneurial example, what you could see is, okay, they pushed back on price this much. That decreases the amount of value that I received a certain amount. And then, so maybe one part of your fence moves backward, but then you move another part of the fence forward. So how can I try and recoup that value? Maybe if that person is willing to give me a testimonial, that's one way I could recoup that value. What is a testimonial worth? For me, probably about 300 bucks. All right. I'd be willing to do this if you do that. And so it's almost like you can create situations where that plot of land that's being protected by the fence doesn't change in square footage, but now it's not a perfect square anymore. You've moved some parts back and some parts forward.

I love that. That is a great addition to the fence analogy, Kwame. I love that. And it's so true. It's all of these things. And I love your example, too, of asking for a testimonial. If you spend the time planning and thinking through what's important to me, yes, you're going to have the main components of the deal that you want to get. The price, the timeline, what's included, those kinds of things. But also all these potential, we call them negotiables, things that you can negotiate that aren't related to specifically to this deal. And testimonial is one of them for sure. I know it's really important to be able to call other people to say, like, call this person and talk to them about what it was like to work with me. Having that access to someone is a really powerful negotiable, and it can often help close the gap. But you won't come up with those things on the fly. That kind of creativity requires planning it out in advance and thinking through, because when you're in a negotiation, things get tense and maybe you're so far apart you think, there's no way I'm going to be able to come to an agreement with this person. They want a much, much lower price. I can't envision how I'm going to move this fence around to get to a deal. By having those other things in the back of your mind, testimonials and things like that, you are much more likely to be able to move your fence around.

Exactly. And this is a great time to give a shout out to our mutual friend Lisa Cummings, that's how we connected. So if you all remember to the episode I think we had in October, Smart yeses and wise no's, that's one of our most popular episodes. And so Lisa was the one who put Melissa in touch with me. And so going back to what Lisa said in her episode was that you want to concede according to plan and this, like you just said, we're not freestyling. We're not making this up as we go along. We know if somebody pushes back on price a certain amount, we have flexibility in other areas. And so that allows us to move fluidly throughout this conversation. So to the person who, who is on the other end, they're like, whoa. How did Melissa come up with such a creative idea off the fly? Well, the answer is she didn't.

Right?

You thought it through beforehand, right?

Exactly. Yeah. And there are a lot. I loved that episode, by the way. Of course. You know, shout out to Lisa Cummings. She changed my life. And that's a whole nother story related to why I left my corporate job and went out on my own. And I remember listening to an episode and thinking, man, Lisa really, she really nailed it when it comes to talking about the session strategy. So I would recommend people go back and listen to that episode if you haven't already.

Definitely. Well, cool. How about we shift now to a little bit of a role playing activity because the listeners have asked to get some more live situations and they want to see what happens when things go wrong. So I'll be big bad Kwame and you set boundaries with me and I'll try and give you a hard time and so then you could change. Show them how you can adeptly move throughout the conversation.

Okay, let's give it a go.

Perfect. So let's start with everybody's favorite PowerPoint. So I guess I will be a colleague and I'll say, melissa, I need you to help me with this PowerPoint and I need it by Friday. Right now it's Wednesday and I need it by noon Friday. Thanks so much.

Okay, so I'm getting this call from Kwame. He's saying, I need this PowerPoint. I look at the draft that he's given me. I'm in a support position. He doesn't have any direct authority over me, but I am responsible to be responsive to him. And it's like 47 slides, and I'm thinking, oh, my God, I've already got a full plate of things that I'm responsible for completing between now and Friday. Now I dig deep into my morals and values. And I say, okay, now this situation is going to keep me late at work. One of my values, my personal values, is to be home by 6 o' clock every night so I can spend time with my family. And that is really important to me. Now, I know it's not going to happen every single day. There are times when I have to stay late, but is this one of those times? So I'm stopping and thinking, what's going on here? Why does he need it by Friday? And I start to get curious. So here's what I notice in many, many people is that they assume the deadline is the deadline. So he said he needed by Friday, so we must really need it by Friday. So in a situation like this, the first thing you want to do is get curious. Why Friday? What's going on? So I'm going to pick up the phone. I know this strange device called a telephone that people don't use very often and call Kwame and say, kwame, I got your message, and I know you want this PowerPoint by Friday. Can you tell me, like, what's going on? Why do you need it by Friday?

Yeah. So I'm working on this pitch for a client, and they are just hounding me, and so they really wanted me to deliver this pitch. And I need your help because, frankly, you're better at PowerPoint than I am, and I don't want to lose this client for the company.

Okay. So now my immediate response may be to feel like, okay, I have to do this. Clearly, he wants it by Friday. But what Kwame didn't tell me is, when is the pitch right? Is the pitch on Friday? So I'm going to stay curious and say, kwame, you mentioned that the client really wants you to do the pitch. Is the pitch on Friday?

The pitch is not on Friday, but Sarah, my superior, she'd like to have a draft by Friday. The pitch is actually on Wednesday.

Okay, so now I want to stay curious here and say, okay, so I understand that Sarah wants to review it and she's asked for it on Friday. Do you think she's going to review the entire presentation over the weekend? I'm kind of reading between the lines here that she wants it over the weekend so she can have the time to review it. Do you think that's what she's asking for?

Actually, no. She. She has a hard line that she will never work on the weekends for things like this. But just being honest, in the past, I've been kind of. I've waited to the last second. So she kind of micromanages me, so she wants me to get it done Friday so she could look at it first thing Monday.

Okay. So now I see in my mind possibilities of creative solutions forming, and they are things like, what if I get you an outline by Friday? Or what if I were able to do, like, the key slides? I noticed there's five sections in your PowerPoint. What if I got you the first slide for each of those five sections by Friday and I start to propose ideas that will meet your need and meet my need. My need is not to stay late every night so I can get this done by Friday. And your need is to give something to Sarah that is substantial enough that she can review Monday morning. Right. So I might make a proposal like that. So, Kwame, what do you think if I were to give you the five key slides that she could review with a promise that the rest of the presentation would come Monday afternoon?

Yeah, I think that could work. I need to check with Sarah about that, but I think especially knowing that. That you're on the team with me getting this done, that would make her a little bit calmer and assuage some of her fears. So I think we could get that to fly.

Another creative solution that comes to mind now that I know this information, is let's talk about partnering. So I can do some slides and you can do some slides. There are lots of creative options that I can come up with once I understand more context about why you're asking for this particular deadline.

I like it. That was good. Oh, man, this is so good. Because one of the greatest things about this is that you were able to move me without making any real affirmative statements until deep into the conversation.

Right.

And it's like we were saying earlier, there are typically only a few good reasons for you to do something. And by continuing the information gathering session into the conversation, you're just gathering more information, more intel. And to use the metaphor I brought up before adding more arrows to your quiver, but you didn't shoot any until you had a very clear target.

Exactly. And one thing I didn't do was tell you all the reasons why I couldn't help you.

Right. Right.

Well, Kwame, I can't stay late. My kid has a baseball game tonight, and we have plans in the city tomorrow night. And all these personal reasons why I can't help you, that will put up a barrier between us that will lead to. Remember, in the beginning, I talked about connection or disconnection that will disconnect us because you have a real business need. To get something accomplished. The last thing you want to hear is my wall going up between us saying, I can't help you. No, no, no. Right. It's a much more collaborative, relationship building experience when we can come up with a solution by being curious.

Exactly. This brings up something interesting that I've noticed about myself, is that when I negotiate. So if I'm acting as an attorney, because I still practice business law, when I'm talking to opposing counsel, I wouldn't say, are you clear for a negotiation next week? Is that a good time for you? Or let's discuss this issue or something like that. I never say negotiation or issue or anything like that. I say, when is a good time for you to chat? Let's think through this. And so, like you said, we want to be collaborative. And this conversation that we just had in this role playing example demonstrates that negotiations at their best are essentially brainstorming sessions.

Right. I love that.

Yeah. I love that both people are working together and being creative to find a solution that works.

Right. And imagine the confidence that you feel going into a situation thinking of it as a brainstorming session, instead of all the fear and tension associated with, I've got to get this thing, and I really need to get this thing. And if the other person pushes back against me, what's going to happen? Imagine the freedom that you feel to be creative if you think of it as brainstorming. I love that.

Yeah. It's a game changer. And it makes it a lot more fun. Less pressure on both sides.

Right, right.

And also sometimes. And it's almost like a great book with alternate endings, because maybe you go throughout the brainstorming session and you see that our goals are incompatible. And one thing that I always tell people is that negotiation isn't the art of deal making, it's the art of deal discovery. So we are coming together, trying to see if through our curiosity and creativity, if we can find the deal. If there is no deal, don't force it if it's going to infringe on your barriers and your boundaries. And so then the next step of creativity is trying to figure out an alternative that works. Maybe you have a colleague that's also good at PowerPoint who has a little bit more free time. So it's like, I can't help you, but maybe Steve can.

Yes, I love that because it's really thinking outside the box, is really thinking about the potential instead of the set. And that's where you're going to move your fence around a little bit, is thinking through what are the other resources around me? Who can I call on for help? And that is really. It takes planning and confidence to be able to get to the point where you can distance yourself from the emotional components of negotiation and see this as brainstorming.

Definitely. Oh, this was fun. I was so excited for this conversation and you deliver it.

Oh, thanks, Kwame. I love talking about this stuff. I mean, clearly, working in negotiation skills for so many years, it never gets old. And hearing how people view their lives and view their conversations in a totally different way, that helps them build stronger relationships with everybody in their lives. It makes you feel happier. It makes you feel more satisfied with everything in your life. And there's no greater gift to me. I feel so blessed and so honored to be able to help people in this way. And meeting a kindred soul like you to talk about this with is just super fun.

Definitely. I agree 100%. Congratulations. You've just joined an elite club by listening to a full episode. You're now officially on the Negotiate Anything team, so welcome aboard. What most team members do is they subscribe to the podcast because that allows them to automatically get the latest episodes of the show. The best things in life lie on the other side of difficult conversations. Keep learning, keep practicing, and keep getting better. Your relationships will improve, your career will soar, and you'll have the confidence you need to get the most out of these crucial conversations. Again, thank you for joining the team. We're excited to have you, and I will see you in the next episode. I'll catch you later.