How to Successfully Approach Negotiations with Vulnerability. Elio Harmon's Insight

Hello, my friends, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. This show is produced by the American Negotiation Institute and with over 5 million downloads and listeners in over 180 countries, listeners just like you have made this the number one negotiation podcast in the world. Hi, my name is Kwame Christian and I am the founder and CEO of the American Negotiation Institute here at A&I we believe that the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And we are passionate about providing you with the best content that will help you to make your difficult conversations easier, both at work and at home. Lastly, I want to remind you that we offer consulting and conduct trainings both virtually and in person all around the world. Our focus is in three main areas. First, negotiation and conflict resolution. Second, leadership. And lastly, diversity, equity and inclusion. Check the link in the description below to learn more about how we could work with you and your team. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Elio, thanks for joining us today.

It's a pleasure to be here, man. Thanks for the invitation.

Yeah, listen, I'm returning the favor, my friend, so we're glad to have you. How would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Yeah, so I love telling this story because where I come from is so much a part of who I am. So I'm originally from Liberia, West Africa, immigrated to the States in the early 90s. So I had my first East coast winter in 1992. Fresh out of Africa from Trenton, New Jersey, moved to Columbus, Ohio in like the mid to late 90s. Went to high school here, started my career off in banking and then transitioned to healthcare. Lived in a couple other cities in the country. So I've been fortunate to live in a few places. So Atlanta, Georgia, Fort Lauderdale, Florida. But Columbus is my home. It's where I've chosen to raise my family. So I'm married, we have a six year old daughter and tomorrow at the time we're recording, this is her half birthday. So she's still at that age where half birthday matters and every birthday is a big deal. And so it's just a joy being a husband and a dad. And then outside of that, you know, outside of working in healthcare, where I work for National Church Residences, it's a national organization, the largest provider of affordable housing in the country. I lead their strategic programs division and my primary responsibility is growth. And the project that I'm working on now is called the Senior select center. And we exclusively provide primary care for folks who are Medicare eligible. So if you imagine my day, I'm talking to the elders, people who have lived life and they've been blessed to see 65. And in this society, a lot of times we don't think of getting old as a privilege, right? It's more of a burden. But if you go through this life, given how unpredictable, predictable and how joyful, but then also how sometimes difficult it can be when somebody gets to the age of 65 or older, they've seen a few things. And so I get to be around these old souls in my day job and learn from them and be around them and just appreciate, right? Not take for granted being younger than they are, but also understanding it's a privilege to grow older. So in that world, I have a lot of fun, right? I'm joking with them, they're laughing with me, and we're learning from one another. And then about five years ago, I started my podcast, which was basically a passion project at the time, right. I live in Columbus. The big news about five years ago was an exit by a company called Cover My Meds. They were acquired by McKesson for a billion dollars. And all I knew about this company at the time was they had a funny name. I would drive by their office, Cover My Meds. Like, who names their company that? And then it piqued my attention when, you know, they got acquired for a billion dollars. And I said, well, there' story here. All billion dollar companies start as an idea. One, two, three, maybe four people. And what does it take to go from just an idea to a billion dollar exit? And so I decided, you know what, with this podcast, I'm going to tell these stories of where they started. And so for many of the people who've been on the podcast, I capture them as they're telling their story in the idea stage or like, very early. They just raise their first round. So it's a joy, man. So I talk about entrepreneurship and business and life with these people. And so that just a little bit about me.

This is great, Elio. I'm excited. Our families got together this Sunday to have brunch. There are a few things I didn't know. Like, I didn't realize it was Ellie's half birthday, but we would have gotten more. More of the monkey bread.

More monkey bread. Maybe broke out a candle. Yeah, it's that age, man, where birthdays are a big deal.

Absolutely. No, this is great. In today's episode, we're going to focus on vulnerability and listeners, if you've been listening for a While this is a term that comes up quite frequently in the episodes, but I realized when we were chatting with. When I was chatting with Elio, just game planning here, we've never had an episode that was specifically focused on vulnerability, and I think that's a massive missed opportunity. And so we're going to talk about vulnerability, of course, as it relates to negotiation and communication in general. But before we even talk about, like, the strategic application of vulnerability and how it helps communication, we have to get an understanding of what it is. So when we think about the term vulnerability, what comes to mind for you?

Scary. Risky. You're gonna see something that I don't want you to see. You're gonna look at me differently afterwards. These are not just thoughts. They're the physiological manifestations of what those things mean. Right. So our thoughts generate emotions, and so it's all of these flight or fight feelings. Right? Maybe your heart starts racing, maybe the butterflies in your tummy. You know, all of those things make up vulnerability, Right. For me. And those are the things that I think of. And I think that's what makes it really difficult, meaning it doesn't feel like it comes naturally if you haven't practiced it for a long time. And so those are just the immediate kind of visceral feeling when you ask that question about what comes up.

For me, I love it. And I think a lot of people could identify with this. I mean, I know I can. I mean, you articulated it really well. It's scary. I like what you said about you're going to see something that I don't want you to see. Because when it comes to the apprehension around vulnerability, the thing that holds us back, it's the fear. But what are we afraid of? We're afraid of people's perception of us. We're afraid of whether or not we can be safe. And I think everybody can look back on instances where we were vulnerable, and maybe somebody took advantage of us, or we've seen other people be vulnerable, and then people took advantage of them. And so, Elio, in your perspective, why is vulnerability still worth the risk?

Well, life will not allow you to fully enjoy it unless you are vulnerable. And that's the thing about. I'm learning, right? So I've been on this planet 41 years. He'd be like, oh, you're 41. You should have it figured out. Well, if you're younger than 41, talk to me. When you are 41, you'll probably feel very much the same. Like, I do. Like, and people probably older than me will probably say, oh, you are a young buck. You don't know much about life. You're 41. What do you know? And I think that's the perspective that comes with getting older. You start to look at your younger self and who you are now and have some compassion for that younger self. And the compassion that I started to have for my younger self is like, you really didn't know what you didn't know. And so you were trying to do this life with very limited information, and you thought you could do life without learning certain lessons. And life requires you to learn certain lessons or you're doomed to repeat them. And if you think right now, no matter how old you are, that you're going to be able to live your full life without being vulnerable, I'm sorry to break it to you, it's not going to happen. And either you're going to choose to be vulnerable, or life is going to make you be vulnerable. None of us gets to leave without learning that lesson, whether willingly or unwillingly.

That's powerful. When I think about fully enjoying life, it makes a lot of sense. We need to be vulnerable in order to fully enjoy life. We also need to be vulnerable in order to fully enjoy our relationships and our connections with other people. And so let's talk about vulnerability as it relates to our relationships. Let's imagine a relationship where vulnerability is challenging, where one or both of the people are reluctant to be vulnerable. What does that relationship look like?

Every relationship is different whenever you encounter a relationship. So let's not talk about our relationships first. Let's not personalize it first. When you encounter two people in relationship with each other and you notice maybe there's a lack of vulnerability potentially as the root issue of whatever problems they're experiencing, you're usually coming into that situation without all the facts, right? And another thing about getting older is you probably are going to be making a judgment without all the facts. Right? So I'm very careful about how people got to that point where vulnerability is an issue. Right. It could be for any number of reasons. One person was vulnerable before. One person has an issue with vulnerability, but they haven't dealt with it personally. Before trying to deal with it in a relationship, there could be a ton of different issues.

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If I were to personalize it for a moment, I think my biggest issue with vulnerability is how am I going to be viewed after I am vulnerable? And I don't know if you ever experienced this, but I think the saying is I'm probably going to butcher this. We don't experience the world through our eyes. We experience the world through how we think other people perceive us. Right. And if you have that external focus like that, you're always testing your authenticity against the cost of how that image might be impacted. Right. And so that's what I think for me has always been a struggle, is I'm crafting this image and vulnerability might change the image that that person has of me. So therefore I don't want to risk it.

Yeah, makes a lot of sense. It's so true. What's really interesting is that very rarely do people stop and ask themselves, I might be wrong. Am I wrong in my perception of their perception of me? I know there have been a lot of times with friends when I finally opened up, or family members when I opened up and I said, well, the reason I did this or acted this way or said that was because I thought that you thought this. And they look at me like I'm crazy because sometimes I can be. And they're like, why would you ever think that I thought that? And so what we're doing is we are responding to things that don't really exist and we are not good mind readers a lot of times, believe it or not.

And yeah, I don't know if this stat is correct, but I think I heard it on another podcast. I wish. You know, I hate to be throwing this is a big platform to be throwing out statistics that are not 100% accurate. But this is me being vulnerable and admitting that I might be wrong on this. And so in the comments or somewhere as you're interacting with this content, you could look it up and correct me and I would be appreciative of it. But memory is notoriously unreliable. And the image that you think people have of you is based on a series of memories. I think the Stat that I heard was about 50% of your memory of an incident is not really what happened. So can you imagine if we just extrapolate that out to what we're talking about today? What if 50% of everything that you think someone thinks of you is not exactly either what happened, what you remember, or what that person remembers? So you might be walking around afraid to be vulnerable in this context, or afraid to be authentic, or afraid to be whatever you're fearful of with an identity that's built on memories that are at least on either side of that equation. 50% off. Just think about that for a minute.

It's terrifying, isn't it?

Correct.

So when I was studying psychology, I remember learning about memory. And if you ever want to laugh, check out the studies by Elizabeth Loftus. And what they found is that you can create memories in people and there's a formula for doing this. And so when I heard that, I was like, oh, that's terrible. I'm definitely going to do that. So I went home with my brother and colluded with mom. She didn't want to do it, but I'm persuasive. And in a very short period of time, we created a memory about him being lost in the mall and a woman wearing a red coat finding him and bringing him back. He remembered it, but it never happened. Right. And so there's an actual formula for creating memories that don't exist. And memory is laughably bad when you look at the, the studies. So you're spot on on that. And so when we think about the fact that our perceptions are often made up of memories and then opinions and things like that, we recognize it's going to be off. But then also when you think about how many thoughts people have in a day, I mean, it's thousands of thoughts in a day. Think about the things that you think about during a day and how random they are. And then think about the arrogance that you're carrying into an interaction to think you know what somebody else is think at any moment. It's wild. But again, that fear holds us back. And a lot of times the negativity bias will cause us to assume the worst in people's perceptions. They probably think this horrible thing and it's not always accurate. And it helps us to recognize that when we're talking about negotiation, we always have to think about that internally directed negotiation where we're starting to question ourselves. Not in, in a way that diminishes your confidence, but in a way that serves as a self check, like how Legitimate was that thought. Because we have to recognize there's a difference between thoughts and truths. A thought might be true, but it might not be as well. And so I think injecting humility in our perception of other people's perception of us can really help to be that first step towards being a little bit more comfortable with vulnerability.

Yeah. And I think that's why most people run from silence. Because I think when you first think of vulnerability, you automatically put somebody else across the table. But the first person you have to be vulnerable with is yourself. So you just mentioned something very important, which is the inner dialogue, the inner negotiation. Who are you negotiating with? Who is that character in there that you're negotiating with? Have you ever stopped to really think about that? Right. You say, oh, well, I'm negotiating with myself. Well, are you? And what do you consider yourself? So I think that's where people's. People come at different practices for different reasons. The way I come at the meditative practice, you know, practicing meditation or silence, when I do practice it is I'm trying to figure out, who is that? Because when you turn everything off and you really start to listen, you like, that's not me. Because some of the things that you're hearing, you wouldn't say out loud. These are usually things that you're hearing in your own mind because you wouldn't say that. Right. And I think that getting to know that person or that idea or that entity. Right. That you tend to have these very deep and sometimes dark conversations with. You got to get to know that person and you got to become vulnerable with that first. Because out of that vulnerability, it gives you the courage to then go and be vulnerable with others. Right. And you know, I had a conversation in a therapy session because of a lack of experience early in my life. Sometimes I would look at a picture of myself and be like, I don't really like that young guy. That was a thought that I was having, but I was having that thought to myself. Now, if I can't be loving to my younger self, who can I be loving to? Right. If I'm not willing to be vulnerable and say, you know what? There's something in me that I need to work on there, why do I look at that picture and get a certain feeling towards that younger self? And going through that process and doing that self work, which I'm still doing today, is absolutely critical if you're going to get anywhere close to being vulnerable at all with other people.

This is so deep and so true. Because the vulnerability has to Start within yourself. You're absolutely right. And one of the things that you talked about was compassion, but self directed compassion. And I feel like a lot of times it's easier for us to be compassionate towards others, but it's more difficult for us to be compassionate toward ourselves. And when you think about that internal negotiation, sometimes that voice that we're negotiating with is quite abusive. And so we're saying to ourselves, like, I don't even accept myself, then how in the world could this other person accept me? And if I myself am judging myself that harshly, then other people most likely will too. And so the courage starts with that internal dialogue, that silence within yourself to become more comfortable with who you are, who you used to be. And then when you start to get that confidence or that comfortability with who you are and that acceptance and you start to look at yourself with a little bit more compassion, then you will be willing to say, all right, this is who I am. And it, it's making me realize for the first time there's a really strong connection between vulnerability, authenticity and honesty. Because if we're not being vulnerable, it's going to be hard for us to be like, authentic to show people who we really are. And if we're not showing people who we really are, what we really feel and what we really think, that isn't honest either, which will have an impact on our communication because we're not sharing who we really are, what we really want and what we really need.

Yeah, man. And you know, I'm not a big scripture guy, but you know how sometimes you just read something and you could gloss over it, but I was reading this scripture and it's kind of what I've been reading over and over. And it's Matthew, chapter nine. For anybody listening to this, this is not a sermon, okay? It's just, it's where I'm drawing this very important example from. Most people, when they think of Jesus, they have their own perceptions. But one of the things that he's remembered for or recognized for is performing miracles. So in Matthew 9, Jesus goes back to his hometown. And if you understand the symbolism of that, there's a saying in the Bible, the prophet is never appreciated in their own hometown. So you already know when you read that first line, it's setting you up for what's about to happen. Prophet goes back to his hometown. And because he's known for performing miracles, of course, what are they going to do? They're going to bring sick people to you. And so they bring this guy, he's Paralyzed. And they drop him off, right? Like, kind of like, do your thing. And the first thing he says is, your sins are forgiven. Now, he gets overheard saying this. Everybody comes up, like the teachers, the synagogue, like the people, the religious establishment of the day. It's like this guy is blaspheming. He's saying that he has the power to forgive sins. And so he. Here is what they're thinking, basically, what he says. You don't have to say something. I can read your body language and tell what you're saying, right? And he says, and this is the line that really got me. And this is where healing of all kinds, I think happens. Here's what he says. He says, what do you think is harder for me to tell this guy, your sins are forgiven, or for me to tell this guy, you're healed, get up and walk. What is harder? Because you're gonna phrase the miracle of me telling this guy he's healed, but you're gonna complain about the fact that I said, your sins are forgiven, Meaning sometimes for us, the hardest thing to accept in life is, is that forgiving yourself. It seems like a simple act, but sometimes that is the key that unlocks everything. And so you bring me a sick person, and the first thing I say to that sick person is that you're forgiven. And the debate now is, well, you can't do that. That's blasphemy. And then he turns around and says, I'm about to heal this guy. And the reason I'm going to heal this guy physically is to prove that I do have the authority to say, you are forgiven. And sometimes that is the hardest thing for us to do for ourselves and sometimes for us to do for others. Because in those vulnerable moments, to find closure, that has to come, right? And so in a lot of ways, we avoid vulnerability because oftentimes we don't believe that we're going to be forgiven.

And we won't be forgiven by ourselves. And we know that because of our track record of being abusive to ourselves in our own minds. It's a great example just to show how people say, well, you know, forgiving somebody is really hard. Miracle is the easy part. The forgiveness is the hard part. That's fascinating. And it reminds me in my first book, I had this, I said, self compassion and self forgiveness are the unsung heroes of confidence. Because if you can treat yourself with compassion and forgive yourself, then you're going to be more willing to take that risk. Because, you know, a couple of things. Well, first of all, if things go poorly, I at least will still treat myself well after things go wrong. And then when it comes to the vulnerability aspect, when you think about how you described it before, it's risky. I think a lot of times when you look back at times when we were vulnerable and we got burned, yes, we might be mad at the other person, but we're also mad at ourselves. And we're mad at ourselves for letting that happen. We say, oh, I'm never going to let that happen again. And then again, when you think about this, statistically, most of the time when you're vulnerable, things are okay. If you open up to your friends, your family, things like that, people at work, most of the time it's okay. But again, thinking about negativity bias, our brain is designed to remember those very, very painful events, even if they're rare, in order to protect ourselves. It's fascinating, but so important. It's going to take some self work to get to that point. But then if you do, it's like you said, you can avail yourself to the fullness of life and the fullness of these connections we can establish with others.

Yeah, I agree 100%, man. And it's not an easy lesson. And I don't have it figured out and probably never will fully, but it's worth the process. And that's another thing as, as an attorney and a negotiator, negotiation expert, and just a dad, a family guy, whatever, you understand that sometimes the end is not really what you're working for. It's the process, right? So this idea that vulnerability is not a one and done, it is every day, whether you like it or not, practice, right? And if, let's say, you have an expectation of what the other person's response might be to your vulnerability, and you're not only being vulnerable for the act in and of itself, you can set yourself up to go back in that show if you don't get the response that you were expecting. So it's about falling in love with the process in and of itself.

The two words that I love the most about what you just said, the first one is process, and the next one is practice. Because when you focus on the process, you are accepting the reality that you can control your part in the process, but you can never control the outcome. You can influence the outcome or have an impact on the outcome, but you can't control it. Especially in interaction, in a conversation, the other person plays an equal role, or at least should. But then when it comes to the word practice, we have to recognize that we could turn this into an intellectual exercise. I heard Elio and Kwame talking. I am going to meditate on this for the next seven years before I actually do something. At the end of the day, vulnerability. It's something that you actually have to put into practice, and I'll let you know. Like, you can become more comfortable with it, but I don't know of anybody where vulnerability is completely comfortable. It's scary every time, but you become more willing to do it when you start to establish that habit of being vulnerable in these conversations. And, Elio, earlier in the conversation, you gave a really good example of how to do it. There's no magic trick to this. It's being honest and sometimes giving a disclaimer. When you were talking about the study where you said, there's a study, I heard it was on a podcast, and I might not have the exact number, and if I'm wrong, feel free to let me know. But this is what me authentically, this is what I remember, but I might be wrong. That's a simple example of vulnerability. It wasn't anything that was. It wasn't the Gettysburg Address or anything like that. It was very simple, very authentic, but at the same time, very vulnerable. I think that's a great example of it.

And nobody's gonna fault you for providing a disclaimer. Actually, that is a safe way to start a conversation, because psychologically, it actually feels like it takes a little bit of the burden off before you say what you need to say. Now, that could be used as a crutch, potentially, because it could be used very strategically to soften the what you are intending to say, when sometimes what you need to say is just what you need to say. Because you could see how somebody who's not ready to be fully vulnerable could couch their vulnerability in that act. Right? And it lets you off the hook a little bit, because if the person does say, hey, I don't remember it that way, you might say, oh, well, you know, maybe it doesn't. Maybe it didn't happen, or maybe it did. And by you prefacing that, you might be providing an out to somebody who doesn't want to be fully vulnerable, and you're providing yourself an out, too. So I think it's a tool. But like all tools, you have to know when to use it, because sometimes you just need to say what needs to be said and let the chips fall where they may.

I love that you are spot on there. When I think about confidence, it takes a lot of confidence and courage to be able to do that. And I think the competence has to come from a couple of different places. First of all, has to come from your skill set. So in a conversation, I'm going to say my piece, let the chips fall where they may. And at the same time, I believe that as the conversation continues to develop, I have the skills that I can put in place to navigate this conversation in a way that is as productive as it can possibly be. Because, again, like we said, we cannot control the outcome, but we can control our parts of the process. And if you have good conversational skills, you can say, listen, I don't know how this is going to end up. I don't know if I'll get this deal done. Maybe this, this leads to a fundamental shift in the relationship. But whatever the outcome is going to be, I know that I have the skills to navigate to the best possible outcome while understanding that it might not be what people from the outside looking in might consider to be a win. And when I think about confidence, I'd be interested to hear your perspective on confidence, too. And there are a lot of different ways we can look at it. But one of my favorite ways of thinking about confidence is it's a general sense of okayness. Things might go bad, but I know that because of the skills that I have, things will be okay. Because of the decisions I can make after the fact, I'll be okay. I will find a way to be okay. Even if the moment is really challenging and being vulnerable kind of hurts right now, I'll find a way to be okay. When you think about confidence, what's your perspective?

There are different kinds of confidence or confidence derived from different foundations. So, for example, a fundamental thing is that you have to believe that you're valuable. There's a certain level of confidence that just comes from believing that, you know, I have something to offer. There's another level of confidence that comes from study and time and practice. If you're a public speaker, it's not enough to say, hey, I'm confident, because I know I can add value. Public speaking is a skill. There's a confidence of a skilled public speaker that you can't just duplicate because you believe you have something to add. The confidence based on a lot of different things. In the context of the deep uncertainty that comes with emotional work and maybe even the risk of entrepreneurship, maybe the confidence comes from, I know I won't die, or like, this won't kill me. It's like the. The only reassurance you actually have when you're doing this kind of work, or when you're starting a business, or when you're doing something that is deeply uncertain, you just know it's not going to kill you. Right? Now, over time, you're going to gather the evidence that you're not going to die because you did it the first time and you didn't die. But that very first one, maybe all you have to go on is, I don't think I'm going to die. Right. But sometimes, again, that vulnerability is not only experiences of thought, it's experienced in your body. And that's another thing that practicing stillness is going to teach you. Your pattern of thought produces a reliable pattern in your body. So people not only have to overcome the thinking, they literally have to overcome their physiology. Right? So when you think of a difficult conversation, a chemical cocktail starts getting produced. And it's not just what you say. It's like your hand starts shaking, you get butterflies, you start stuttering. It's not because, you know, that's not. That's artificial. It's literally happening because your body is producing the chemicals to reflect your mindset. Right? And so, yeah, that. That's my thought on confidence. One, fundamentally, I. I pray that everybody grows up, matures into somebody who believes they have value. Number two, no matter what, you're going to put in the work to develop a skill set so that your confidence is based on competence. And then number three, when those two things are out of the window and it's risky no matter what, it's just, I'm not going to die. Right? So let's just see what happens.

I love this. And as an entrepreneur, I definitely can get down with the last one. It's like, as long as I'm still breathing, I'm in this game, you know? But that is legitimate. And one of the things I like to do sometimes when I'm. When I'm struggling is I think about the. Call it a survivability test. All right, let's say this conversation goes horribly, like, the worst it could ever go, like, cartoonishly bad. What would I do then? Okay. I would do this. Okay. And then what? I would do that. And then what? Oh, I'm back on my feet. Right. As long as the person doesn't murder me, I'm still here. You know, we laugh about it, but it's really legitimate because when you think about the way the body responds emotionally to certain. To especially, like, fear, if I'm being chased by a tiger, my body will respond in a certain way. My heart rate will elevate My breathing will change all of that. I'll start to sweat. Scary, right? If I'm up in front of a stage, my body will respond the same way. If I'm having a tough conversation with Whitney when I need to be vulnerable, my body will respond the same way. Right? So we. We have to remind ourselves, hey, I'm not going to die. Because your body will feel as though death is upon you. And so that's really important because a lot of times, again, we think about this more theoretically. Hey, be vulnerable. Great advice. Okay. Okay. Well, we just spent what last 40 minutes breaking down what that really means. It's hard. It's hard. And. But again, ultimately, it's worth it.

Agreed, it is worth it. But it, singular, is just one of many, and there are levels to life, right? And it is just this continuous process. Oh, you think you're. It's over. Okay, here comes another one. Right. It's like belts in karate. So, yeah. Oh, you thought that was tough. That was just a white belt test. All right, here comes the. The brown belt. Unexpected, out of the blue. It is now also being still, right? In the fact that it is part of life. It's going to keep coming. It's going to require me to keep growing and changing the skills that serve me well at 40. I need to upgrade them for 41 and for 42 and for 43 and just being okay with that. And I hope to get to the point that for whatever I am experiencing at my core, I am still right. Meaning whatever's going on, that I will get to the point that at least on the inside, I'm still right? Because that still coming from that place of stillness, you can actually think. Because most people think that they're thinking, right? But really what they're doing is just rehearsing whatever patterns they've rehearsed. Right? And the hallmark of somebody who's thinking is that person just keeps asking questions, right? And so what are going to be the new questions you're asking that demonstrates, oh, I'm snapping out of it a little bit. Right? Because if all that's in your mind is these conversations, you're probably repeating whatever thought patterns or thought loops you have. But if you asking new questions like, wow, I've never asked myself this, like, whose voice is this? Oh, that's a new question. That's a thinking person question. Right. Well, why do I get afraid every time I get to step in front of a crowd? And it's not just I get afraid when I step in front of crowds. It's like, why? When did this start? What is my earliest memory of this? Why? When I have to have a tough conversation with this person, I'm able to have it, but with that person, I can't. Right now we're thinking, now we're applying the skills that we learned by testing this idea of vulnerability out, and hopefully we'll start to develop some new patterns.

I love this. This is great. Elio. I appreciate this. And I know a lot of listeners are saying, hey, where can I get more of Elio? So can you remind them about the podcast and how to get in touch with you?

Yeah, man. I didn't know we were going to get vulnerable today, but I'm glad that we went there. So if you're looking to hear more of this, you may not necessarily find it in the archive that I already have, because my podcasting journey is consisted mostly of business interviews. So I'm usually the interviewer interviewing a founder or investor, somebody involved in the startup ecosystem in Columbus. And we're hoping to expand to some new cities in 2023. So what you might appreciate if you go looking for what I do is like, my conversation with folks like Kwame and asking them very interesting questions about their business and being curious. So you could find me at 61 4, like our area code here in Columbus. Startups with an S on the end. Com. We have podcasts, we have articles, we have news. And the one thing that I'm tempted to do, though, is really go deep into this world of health and wellness for founders. And maybe this episode might be a catalyst for me, maybe doing some solo episodes or more deep dives into health and wellness and, and trying to take care of yourself as you build this business because it can be pretty stressful.

I love it. That is so important. So fully endorsed, my friend Elio, really appreciate it. Thanks for coming on today. Congratulations. You've just joined an elite club by listening to a full episode. You're now officially on the Negotiate Anything team. So welcome aboard. What most team members do is they subscribe. Subscribe to the podcast because that allows them to automatically get the latest episodes of the show. The best things in life lie on the other side of difficult conversations. Keep learning, keep practicing, and keep getting better. Your relationships will improve, your career will soar, and you'll have the confidence you need to get the most out of these crucial conversations. Again, thank you for joining the team. We're excited to have you, and I will see you in the next episode. Episode. I'll catch you later.