How to Talk About Money Without Ruining the Relationship (or Yourself) - with Elizabeth Husserl

Hey, I'm Kwame Christian, and you are about to step into the world of Negotiate Anything, the number one negotiation podcast in the world, where we teach you how to make difficult conversations easier while getting more of what you want in the process. Each episode is packed with practical tips and strategies from the experts. We delve into negotiation, conflict resolution, and leadership skills that are crucial in both business and and in life. Whether you're closing a deal, managing a team, or navigating personal relationships, Negotiate Anything provides you with the tools you need to succeed. Our conversations are real, relatable, and most importantly, rooted in practicality. So if you're ready to transform your conversations and elevate your negotiation skills, join me on Negotiate Anything. Subscribe and listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you love to listen to. Let's make every conversation a winning negotiation. Elizabeth, thanks for joining us today.

Ami, thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited.

Yes, me too. Me too. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Yes, So I am. I wear many hats. I like to tell people I'm a financial advisor, a wealth manager, and also a money coach or money therapist. I have a degree in economics and psychology, and my passion is really bringing these fields together in terms of how can we do financial planning, wealth management, but deeply rooted in our psychology and behavioral finance.

I love this. And now for folks who might not be familiar with behavioral economics or understanding the nexus between finance and money and psychology, why do you think it's so important for us to understand both of those elements together?

Yeah, no, it's a great question, and it's a really important one because behavioral finance is gaining a lot more traction in the financial planning field, partly because we understand that, you know, variables and math and formulas and how we kind of analyze the stock market might be rational, but humans are not, right? Our reaction to news, to events, to our feelings, to our personal lives, to external lives, that doesn't necessarily equate to rational behavior. And so we really need to know what is underlying our emotions, our psychology, our relationship to money, because it will impact our financial strategy.

This is perfect, and I agree wholeheartedly. And I also know that people learn really well through stories, Elizabeth. So I want you to regale us with a story. Perhaps somebody you know in your life.

Oh, my gosh. I will start with my. Well, I'll say a couple things, right? It's like, I. I love what I get to do because I get to talk about money every day. Of my life with people. And that's really important. We do not talk enough about money, right? And the more we talk about it, the less it become a cultural taboo. And so I'll. I'll share. I'll be vulnerable and share a little bit about my personal story, because I think that's what can get the juices going in terms of how can we talk more about money in your own life with your partners, with your families, with your colleagues, etc, and recently I wrote a book that allows us to have different entry points. We don't have to talk about numbers when it comes to money. We can talk about our story. So let me go back to that question. A story. So let's. Let's go back 20 years in time, right? I was still. I was finishing my degree in psychology. I had my degree already, my undergrad in economics. And I met my partner, who is now my husband. And I remember we started dating. Kwame. And I'm a planner, right? I do this for a living. I love spreadsheets. I map out my budget. I know what's coming in. I know what's going out. And we started dating, and he just appeared to be this happy. Go lucky. You know, I'm like, oh, does he make a lot of money, right? Like, that's kind of attractive. Does. Can he, you know, pay for our dates? Etc. We started dating, so I noticed two things. First thing I realized, wow, he actually has a lot of credit card debt. How do I feel about that, right? And so I had to kind of come to terms that he was not as financially organized as I was. So start to appear the different money personalities. And then we started dating. We moved in together, and we started going out to dinner with our friends. And my husband would be the one. Actually, he wasn't my husband then. We were dating. We had to get through this before we actually were able to get married. And he started picking up the bills because he is an overly generous human being, which on one hand we can say amazing, right? He is kind, he is generous. He's the life of the party. People want to be in a room with him. But when he would do that, Kwame, my heart would drop. My temperature would go cold. I'd be like, oh, my goodness, this does not fit in our monthly plan. And I remember that was a moment kind of like that come to Jesus moment. We're like, can I marry my financial opposite? And I bet I am not the only person who has that question, right? Opposites attract. And a lot of times we're Attracted to people who have different behaviors that potentially can complement ours. So fast forward 20 years, I have gone into this work around behavioral finance and money management and wealth management, partly because I had to figure it out myself. And we had. We did a ton of work that. In which I share with my clients, where we had to figure out what were our wisdom and shadows. Right. What did we bring to the table as a strength when it came to our relationship to money? What was a place that we potentially had to shadow, we weren't looking at. It was a weakness that we had to own and take responsibility for. And so when I started to do that, you know, I realized my husband was there to teach me generosity, and I needed to learn that because I came more from a. From a family where we kept everything. We were more hoarders. We like to keep our money in our bank account and savings, sometimes at the expense of enjoying life and sharing with those close. Whereas he came from. From a family which, you know, a lot of times they didn't have. They didn't know where the next, you know, paycheck was coming from. So he was taught to live in the moment. Right. If you get $100 to buy a steak, you buy the steak and you share it with those in your life. Right. So very different upbringings. And I got to teach him how to create a plan, how to get out of debt, and how to not only satisfy our present money self, but as well as our future money self and take care of our past money self. I say those three things intentionally because that's what causes a lot of chaos and conflict and confusion in our relationship to money. We have these different parts of us that all need attention, and given our personalities, one of them may dominate over another at the expense of creating a solid financial plan for all parts of you. So I am happy to announce we've been married now for, or we've been together for 20 years. We've gotten through our financial challenges, and he today is my money best friend.

Unbelievable. That's such a great story. Well, thank you for the vulnerability. I appreciate this. And there's so much that we can take from this, because, first of all, we can realize that there is hope, we can work through these things, because I know that there are people who are afraid of an impending conversation or can think about avoiding some of the conversations that needed to happen because they didn't think that there was a way through. There wasn't a way to do it in a respectful, loving type of way. And you're right, the More that we have these conversations about money, the more we will gain in the skills and resilience necessary to have these conversations about money, and we start to normalize it so we can have better relationships. And one thing I want to hone in on here, I'm recognizing that there was a fair amount of self exploration that had to happen.

Yes.

Because you said, how do I feel about that? It's not just about the behavior, it's about the impact that it had on you emotionally. And then recognizing that, it's not necessarily that somebody's right or wrong. It's just that we're different and we need to work together to reconcile these differences. So I want to start with that internal negotiation that you had to have with yourself in order to understand what you are feeling and why and then what to do with it. So let's walk the listeners through how that goes.

Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, such a great observation, Kwame. And I would say three things, if there's three things I want listeners to take away from, is one, no one, no couple or partner has walked into my office having the same relationship to money. And so what I want to tell listeners is, like, you have a unique relationship to money. Get to know it, own it, explore it. Right. And that relationship to money that you have does not need to look like that. That was inherited to you, passed on to you, et cetera. You get to redesign it, but you have to know it. And I like to tell people as well, no one should stand between you and your relationship to money. No cpa, financial advisor, investment manager. It's like saying, you know, I have this joke where it's like, you don't want your therapist living with you. Right. That would kind of suck. But think of it. And so you don't. You need to have a direct relationship to one. And I'm going to give you a practical tool on how to do that. Number two, your partner's not out to try to, like, piss you off or irritate you. Right. That's not the intention. We are just different. And three, when you take the time to really dig deep and understand, okay, who am I in my relationship to money? What works? What are my triggers? What are my feelings? Right. What am I doing? Well, what. Where's my money leaks? What am I holding on too tight to? What does money want to tell me about me? Right. That's a fun one. And I hope we get to talk about that tool, because it's a really important one. When we sit down and have a conversation with Money. And we let our partner. And by partner, I mean like your spouse, your wife, your husband, whoever it is, when you can let them in to witness your direct conversation with money. Something magical happens, Kwame, because we start to shift the blame. We don't scapegoat money anymore, and we don't blame our partner for not what's, what's not working. And then we're given a clear path to take responsibility for our part on how we're creating this.

This is so good. And let's. Let's go on this, this rhyming tour real quick. Because you talked about blame, I think that reminds me of shame as well. And I think there's a lot of both that goes into these conversations. And the feeling of shame holds us back from engaging with other people. And then when we blame somebody else, then it makes them feel shame. And now we have two people who are avoiding the thing that needs to happen, which is a conversation. And so it's easy to say, let's stop blaming, let's stop feeling shame or shaming other people. But as it relates to money, it's so intimate. It makes you feel so vulnerable and exposed. How do we get to that point where we can overcome blame and shame? Hello, my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question. Have you ever wondered how to elevate your team's negotiation game and how you can help the folks on your team have better, difficult conversations? At the American Negotiation Institute, we offer transformative keynotes and workshops tailored to empower professionals with top tier negotiation and conflict resolution skills. Whether it's a keynote for your next event or hands on training for your team, we've got you covered. Don't just negotiate. Master the art with the American Negotiation Institute. Click the link in the description to find out more. Elevate, negotiate, and succeed.

So I think the first piece is really just owning that. Owning that emotion. Like, I'll give you another personal example. You know, I've been doing this for 20 years, and I still get triggered at times. And I still get triggered by my husband, who can tend to have more financial mistakes than potentially other people in my life. Like, he'll forget a suitcase and we have to ship it back or he'll burn the pot because oops, right? And there's. I'm like, wait, all of that costs money. And I've had to deal with my own experience of waste, right? And being like, okay. And can we also just be human and be imperfect? And so one of the Workarounds that actually my daughter suggested, because she's like, mom, she's 14. She's like, wow, mom, we're human. We make mistakes, right? When I was growing up, we said, wait, what was it? Practice makes perfect. And she's been taught, no, mom, practice makes better, right? Very different generation. And she's like, how about, mom, we add a mistakes budget to our spreadsheet? And I was like, whoa. She's like, yeah, let's just assume we're gonna make mistakes. We'll take turns who makes a mistake, and that's okay. We add it to our spending plan. Maybe we take from this to add there. And it was revolutionary. It's such a simple thing because I lost my AirPods last month, right? We had an office move, and I have no idea where they went. And she's like, mom, you get to use the mistake budget this week. I'm like, you're entirely right. Instead of blaming or feeling shame right there, we can start to have a different relationship to money, where we just use resources to also underline the fact that we're human. But I had to go through the cycle of emotions. I had to share it with my family and not hold it in, but in a way that wasn't attacking them, but owning it. Like, I am angry right now, right? And we don't say that enough. We can be angry, we can be angry with money, but we can't scapegoat it.

Oh, this is so powerful, because when we think about our approach that we have for difficult conversations, it's compassionate curiosity. So it's a framework that you use for internal and external negotiations. The same three steps. Acknowledge and validate emotions. Is step one, get curious with compassion, and then use joint problem solving as step three. And so as we go through this, what you did is you labeled the emotion, because a lot of times what happens is we feel something, and then we feel bad for feeling that way. So we try to bottle it up, which makes the emotion just leak out at very inopportune times within. In the wrong situation. So the way to take control and manage your emotions is by accepting that you have them, listing them down, and understanding where they come from, and then you can actually do something about it. Right. And one of the things that you talked about is not scapegoating money. I don't want. People don't want to assume that the listener understands what that means. So when you think about scapegoating money, what does that really mean?

That means that you're. You're putting Instead of owning and acknowledging your emotions, you're putting it on something else and an external object, Right? And it makes it easier to put on the external object because that means that you don't have to work through your emotions. So let me give you another example, a client example. I had a client walk in. She was an employee at PayPal, and she was so angry at the stock market. And I'm like, I'm kind of smiling inside. I'm like, wow, that's something big to be angry about. Every day it's going to go either up or down, right? Like, I'm like, we are on fast track to suffering if you're so angry at the, at the fluctuations in the stock market. And we started doing a deeper dive, and we realized that she had lost her father at a young age, right? So she was kind of like, you know, 10 years old. Her father had a heart attack, and what was literally on his office, on his desk was an unsigned life insurance policy. So her family did not receive the resources they needed to. To make do in a really tragic event. Her mom became a single mother. Mother of three really had to struggle. So not only did she lose her dad, she basically lost her mom because she had to go figure out how to take care of three young children. So fast forward. I mean, I still get chills telling her story. She was so angry at money. She felt abandoned by money. In reality, she was grieving the loss of her dad and she was grieving the loss of her mother. Right? And she, by. By scapegoating the fact that money was so fickle. That's where she was putting all her emotions in a lot of our work. You know, I have to also distinguish when someone needs more of a therapeutic container, I put them in that direction. But I can help be like, hey, let's talk about this. Underlying your anger to money is this deep, deep grief. And it's going to serve you a lot more if you go and touch it versus continuing to spout all these phrases right to the stock market, because that will only go up and down. And it's, it's, it's keeping you in a cycle of suffering instead of feeling your pain.

That's, it's a powerful example. And really what you helped her to do is reclaim her power because she was giving away her power to something that is unfeeling, uncaring, and is indifferent to your suffering. But getting a better understanding of why she felt the way that she felt now you can actually help her to get on the path to Better to figuring out what would make her feel better and then what she could actually do, which would bring her more clarity when it comes to decision making as well.

Yeah. Yeah. So I. Can we. Can we turn towards the Conversation with Money tool?

Yes, I would love to. Let's do it.

Because I think this is such an important negotiating tactic, and it comes back to that external, like before, you know, this whole. You know, the. The whole podcast and your whole message is around how do we become more skilled negotiators? And what I like to tell people, going back to that cycle of, like, acknowledging, taking recognition and ownership and then problem solving, you can do that with money before you go into a negotiation conversation. Right. And so what this means is that, like, money can be a guide and a mirror to you. Right. And I know a lot of people are like, well, what do you mean by that, Elizabeth? And in reality, if we sit down and we take the time to get crystal clear about what our conversation. Right. I'm not saying monologue. I'm not saying what you want to just, like, get off your chest. Money. Your conversation with money is you will gain so much insight to what are the feelings and emotions you need to recognize and. And take ownership on before you're going in to talk about money. Because the reality is when money enters the room, if you're negotiating salary, right. A compensation package, when money enters the room, the energy in that room changes, right? Because it feels very charged. So if you're clear on what the charge around money is for you, the better. You will walk into a money conversation. So let me back it up for a second. One of the easiest tools that I give clients that you can literally do in 10 minutes in your journal is to sit down and have a conversation with money. And what that means, it is a gestalt chair exercise or an empty chair exercise, where you first pick a money object. So it can be your wallet, a credit card. You know, my younger generation picks up their phone and shows me an app. Whatever represents money to you, you put it in the chair in front of you. You decide the right distance. Kwame. Some people will pull it really close. I'm like, ooh, you are wanting an intimate relationship with money. Some people will push the chair away. I'm like, you need a little more distance. Like, just kind of track that right distance. And then you each get two turns. You put a timer on your phone for three minutes, and you get to go first for the first three minutes. The invitation, it's almost like you heard a knock on the Door. You're in therapy with money. You get to tell money what you feel. Don't tell your story, say what you feel. That acknowledgement piece. And some people, Kwame will walk in and be like, God damn, Money, where have you been my whole life? Or money, so good to see you. Tell me all your secrets, right? Or money, I don't even know what to say. I'm drawing a blank. You're totally overwhelming. Like, what's the emotion that you have? Or like, my dad used you, right? And Rep and I never got his love. And so you start to really feel. What is the emotion that you've always wanted to say to money? Or secretly, I want so much of you, I just. I just don't know how to get more of you. And so you start to see. It almost becomes like this secret that we've been carrying inside of what I've always wanted to say, to say to Money. Then when the timer goes off, stop and trust that you have said everything you've needed in that first round. Change chairs. Now it's money talking back to you, right? This is when people start to feel resistance. But if you just try it, you will be totally amazed at what potentially can come out of your mouth as if you were money talking back to you. If that's too much of a stretch, you can have this conversation between the part of you that pays bills and pays taxes, right? All of us have, like, that financial person in our lives and that a part of ourselves with the part of you that potentially is a little bit less responsible with money, right? Or has a different experience with it. Have this conversation, let money respond. It gets its three minutes, then you get to do that one more time. And then you get to take a step back and be like, let me not problem solve yet. I know that's important. Step three. But let me for a moment just realize, what was the emotion there? Was it anger? Was it avoidance? Was it hoarding and grasping? Was it anxiety? Was it overwhelm? Was it gratitude? What was the emotion in that conversation? And that will give you so much insight to how you walk into a money conversation. What is that energetic charge that you bring that potentially you haven't had awareness of so that you can start to be like, is that the energetic charge I want to walk into my negotiating conversation with? And if it's like, yeah, hell, yeah, me and money are tight, well, then go for it. And next time you sit down and have a conversation with money, say, hey, money, this is what we're doing tomorrow. We're going to sit down and negotiate X, Y and Z. And what insight do you have for me? What angle am I not considering? Use it as a guide and a friend. If you don't like the energetic charge, be like, okay, money, guess what? I have an important conversation tomorrow and I'm feeling really angry at you. Let's figure this out so that when I go into the conversation, it is not so charged.

This is so cool. So what I'm recognizing is that one of the biggest reasons why our conversations with other people about money fail is because we haven't first had the conversation with ourself and we haven't had the conversation with money itself because we're essentially going into these conversations filled with emotions that we are unwilling to acknowledge and bringing all of that pent up energy into the conversation. And, and then it leads us to say and do things where the person doesn't even have a clear opportunity to address the real core issue. And so the best thing we can do is first just take some time to get our own understanding of ourselves, our own understanding of our relationship with money, because that will bring us the clarity we need to communicate with confidence about money.

Exactly. Exactly. Because one of the biggest things in negotiation is like, oh, I mean, I know for women I work with, a lot of women is like, I don't know how to ask for my worth.

I.

Right. I feel lack of confidence going in and talking about money. So again, have the conversation with money first. Where are you feeling unworthy? Right. Where did that belief come from? Likely it didn't have anything to do with money. So why is it being transposed on your conversation with money in your relationship to money? Because you're walking in the room with that. It is electromagnetic induction. Right. You are walking in charged and that is altering the field. So if you want to have the best energetic field when you go into negotiation. Right. Clear the field first.

This is so good. It's so fascinating and also extremely unique. Elizabeth, I know you know this, but for us, we've been on the podcast for nine years, which makes us prehistoric in podcast years.

High five. Thank you.

Thank you. And this is one of the most unique perspectives I've ever heard, especially as it relates to money, because again, like I said, we're starting in the wrong place. And now that we have this type of clarity, how do we start the conversation with the other person? How does this new approach, this, this homework that we've done leading into the conversation, how does it change the way that we navigate and engage with the conversation?

Yeah. And I feel like your question is guiding me back to how we started, right? Like, how do we have this conversation around money more with our partners, with our. With our kids? And so a lot of times when I'm working with clients, I will do a conversation with money with each of them, and they get to witness, right? And it's really important when you get to witness the other person, because a. The energy isn't coming at you, right? They're not blaming you. They're dealing through their own emotion with money. And you get to see. And I can't tell you 9 out of 10 times, what comes is a lot of empathy and compassion. Like, oh, that's what's at the core of their discomfort. I get that now. Okay, I'm gonna lean in and help him or her or they. Because that's what they're dealing with, and that's where it's coming from, and vice versa, right? You're like, oh, I get it. When I do this, it triggers you because it's touching that core wound, right? So we get to really be each other's best friends because we know what's happening. You know, it's like coming back to the conversation with my husband, right? He. He came from a family that moved around a ton. And so for him, trying to create a plan was like, why are we going to do a plan? We're just going to pack up and move, right? And I'm like, and I came from a family that I've only had two childhood homes. Like, no, we. We stay, right? And so once we started to realize the way we were raised around money, our financial DNA was impacting our relationship to money. I can look at him and be like, okay, I can hold his behaviors in relationship to his story. He's not trying to piss me off, right? And vice versa. And then I can use that. You know, we can help each other and become each other's sounding boards. I can be like, hey, babe. I had this really important money conversation. Like, last year, Kwame. I went through a whole process of raising fees on all my client accounts. And I had to really get clear on why I was doing that, what my conversation with money was so that I could clearly communicate that to my clients. And I'm happy to say I did not lose one. Right? Because I was able to. To really delineate what was the value I was bringing to the table and why I needed to adjust my fees to be able to deliver more. And so we can ask for more money. Money wants to be part of your life. Oh my gosh, can I say it again? Money wants to be part of your life. It is a freaking creative tool. It is a, it is a technology, right? Humans, we can use it for good or for bad, right? We there. And there is this feeling sometimes that there is harm that's caused with money. I agree with that. But money is a technology that wants to be part of your life. And if you're listening to this podcast and you are committed to making this world a better place, by all means, call it in, because I want you to have more money to work with.

Man, this is so good. And I think especially with the intimate relationships that we have, just recognizing it's not about me is so powerful because money is so personal that when somebody has a. A money story or beliefs that are different from yours and then it comes into. It comes into conflict, it feels personal, it feels like an attack, and it feels very unsafe. You feel unseen. But now being able to see the, the vulnerable conversation that your partner is having with money, then you say, oh, this isn't about me at all. I just happen to be present in these conversations. But it's not about me and it's not. So it helps me to not take it as personally. And then also going to the story about you raising your fees. This is powerful because this is something that everybody struggles with from one time or another when it comes to feeling as though you are enough or worthy. And I know you literally wrote the book on the feeling of enough. Right. And having that conversation with money to put you in a position of confidence and self understanding before you advocate for yourself, whether it's salary, whether it's a promotion, or trying to land a client or keep a client, I think that could give us give people a really firm foundation for the conversation. So let's walk through that because we've been focusing a lot on the intimate conversations we've been having, maybe with our partner or family. But when we're having the conversation with ourselves to feel like we're worthy of more, what does that look like?

Yeah. And so again, I know that I, I really started with the internal exploration of it, of getting clear of like, okay, first of all, what feels off, Right. Where's my boundary being trigressed in terms of like, what I'm offering to my clients, the level of high quality service and what I'm being paid, what feels off. Right. And so a lot of times that boundary gives us a red flag of something isn't in alignment. So that was step number one. Realizing Like, I was starting to feel resentful. And that is never a good thing when it comes to client services. Right? And so I'm like, okay, but that has nothing to do with my clients. That's on me. I'm creating a lack of boundaries and a lack of consistency in my fees. Step number two was to do an audit on all my fees, right? Which ones were kind of like, which ones were actually following a structure that was consistent amongst all my clients and which ones that I feel like last minute, I gave a discount because I thought that was the only way I was gonna keep the client. It's like, you know what? I'm at a place in my career where I need consistency and steadiness, and if I lose a client, that is okay. Right? And then number three, which was the hardest piece. And I actually, you know, invoked my therapist for this. Right. I love therapy. And I was like, let's sit through and help me talk through all the ways that I bring value to my clients, even outside of financial management. And she was really helpful because she's like, elizabeth, you think about your clients all the time. I'm like, oh, my gosh, I read a book. I'm like, oh, this person would really benefit from this book. Let me send it to them. Oh, this person would really benefit from this referral source. Let me send to them. I'm a connector. So in addition to doing a lot of the financial planning and strategies, I'm also bringing wealth to a lot of areas of their life. That is not just financial stability. Wealth of connection, participation, understanding. Right? Like, that is my job. Because that's the other piece that we haven't had a chance to talk about, Kwame. But money and wealth are not the same thing.

Oh, we are not going to just leave that hanging. Yes. Break it down.

Yes. So money is a tool. And I've said that before. Right? Money is a tool that we use to express value as a store of value, as an exchange, et cetera. It is a technology and a tool. Wealth is a state of being that is connected to, well being. That's really important to know. Right. Money can help create wealth in the different areas, but wealth is connected to well being. That has a lot more to do with. With understanding our human needs and how we satisfy them. So a lot of us are familiar with human needs from the Maslow approach. Right. The funny. What people don't know Kwame is that he never created a hierarchy. Right. That was more in the 1960s, a management firm thought, oh, let's create this into hierarchy, much like we can help people scale the corporate ladder. He did not do that. So a lot of my work is bringing Maslow's needs and the other economist from Cheetah, Manfred Max Neef, who did a lot of work on satisfiers and say, let's even the playing field. Let's, let's work under the. Our working assumption is that we all have the same human needs. Human needs are universal. How we satisfy them is unique and personal. And that is the key difference, right? And so let's talk about those 12 human needs, right? If I were to just name them for you. It's the need of financial stability. That's where people get stuck because they think that's what wealth is. But that's one of the 12. Financial stability, safety, physical health, freedom, purpose, understanding, participation, belonging, connection, curiosity, leisure, touch. Those are the 12 human needs we all have. But how we satisfy those needs and how fulfilled we feel in those needs is unique to each of us. So what I do with my clients, right, and writing this book helped me see this, is that yes, I create a lot of strategies to make sure we have goals and clear strategies and financial stability. But then my work is only half done. My work as a wealth manager is to help clients look outside of the financial stability and ask them, how satisfied are you in your physical health and your sense of purpose and your sense of belonging to. In your sense of connection in leisure, right? Helping them understand how satisfied they are. And then the second piece, which is equally important is helping them identify, do you have strategies in all of these different needs that are monetary and non monetary? If we just use money to satisfy our needs, we are creating dependency on money. And I tell people, you can be wealthier today without adding $1 to your bank account.

Oh my gosh. It's like, I can't. I'm on my second page of notes. Elizabeth. I can't. I cannot keep up. This is so fascinating. So not only did we learn today that we were starting the conversation at the wrong place, we should be first having the conversation with ourselves and then having the conversation with money and then having the conversation with the other person. Also, we recognize now that these conversations are very limited simply because we don't understand the difference between money and wealth, among other things too. Because recognizing the distinction that you just laid out, it makes me realize that a lot of times we are limiting ourselves in these conversations by only talking about money. Because when we're thinking about wealth, it encapsulates so much more of what's very important to us.

Yeah, 100%. Right. And so when you go into negotiating, is it, do you just want a higher salary, or do you want more PTO time? Right. Do you want there to be resources that send you towards education, things that you want to do? Like, look at your wealth mandala, your wealth map, and be like, what would actually make me feel wealthier? Because the reality is, Kwame, is that we start to make more, and we feel like we're in this endless pursuit of chasing more money. We don't necessarily feel happier.

You're right. And then it's very disempowering if you end up getting exactly what it is that you're looking for, which is more money. And then not only does it not make you feel wealthier, it might not make you feel happier. And sometimes, depending on how you go about getting the money, it might actually make you feel worse.

Right. And then our productivity goes down. Right. And we're, like, less inspired to do what we want to do. And so. So I think, you know, this is. This is great. I didn't come into this conversation realizing how important. So thank you for this. Is that when it comes to negotiating, the conversation with money is such a clarifying exercise to kind of clear up the interference, right? The energetic and emotional interference with money. But equally important is going through the exercise of the wealth mandala. Freaking free resource on my website. Yes. Read the book, but just do the. Do the exercise, because then we can get really clear of what else am I negotiating for outside of the financial stability slice of the pie.

Unreal. Elizabeth, I could talk to you all day about this, and it's almost like, I just wish you might have, you know, written a book or something where people could get his wisdom. Is there anything like that available?

Yes. I just recently published a book called the power of Enough Finding joy in your relationship to money. I actually say that word intentionally because there is the possibility of experiencing and finding joy in our relationship to money when we realize money and wealth are different things. So you can buy it wherever books are sold. And I also have a website, Elizabeth Husserl, that's h u s s e-r l dot com with a bunch of free resources, lots of podcasts and interviews, and just a lot of things to get the wheels turning for you to really dive in, into your relationship to money. And my ask is, you read the book. Don't just put it on your books on your bookshelf, right. Or on your nightstand. Read the book, because the book is going to invite you to take a journey, and that journey will serve you in every single aspect of your life.

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