How to Use Curiosity as a Catalyst for Difficult Conversations with Lara Pence, PsyD, MBA

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. Thanks for joining us today. With over 10 million downloads and listeners from more than 180 different countries, it's dedicated listeners just like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of of the American Negotiation Institute. Now, before we get into today's insightful conversation, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives. Have you ever found yourself wishing that you could navigate those high stakes conversations with more confidence? Or perhaps you're looking to empower your team with the art of persuasion and conflict resolution? At the American Negotiation Institute, we've crafted specialized keynotes and workshops tailored for those very needs. We've transformed the negotiation skills of professionals worldwide, and we're eager to do the same for you. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And our goal is to help you improve your lives and the lives of those around you, one difficult conversation at a time. Don't let another challenging conversation leave you second guessing. Click the link in the description to discover how we can help you find confidence in conflict, negotiate better deals, and have stronger relationships. Because in the world of business, every conversation counts. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Lara, thanks for joining us today.

Oh, my goodness. Thank you for having me. What a delight that I get to have another conversation with you.

Yes, I think we're actually just using these podcasts as excuses to chat at this point.

I mean, honestly, I'm okay with that. I have no shame in just calling out that I have built something purely on my desire to have interesting conversations, and so probably have you in some ways.

Exactly, exactly. So how would we start off? By telling the listeners a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Awesome. Well, I'm a licensed clinical psychologist. I've been in private practice for, you know, I always say 10 years, but I forget that every year I should say an additional year. So it's about 12 years at this point, but I've been working for 15. And, you know, I've really, in so many ways built my practice off of the idea of curiosity. And I've worked significantly with individuals who have eating disorders and then athletes. Some of those athletes have eating disorders, some of them don't. But that has really been the bulk of the work that I've done. And then I've also, in my Practice, specifically, as I entered into the world of eating disorders, I worked significantly with parents because as many could probably imagine, much of my clients were adolescents. So I would run parent workshops, parent groups, to really help them understand what are maybe some better ways of navigating parenting just from a foundational perspective, not even when you necessarily have a child with a mental illness. So that's been the bulk of my work in private practice. And then in the last few years, I've joined with an organization called Spartan Race and, and done some consulting with them and then some consulting with some other organizations like the Unbeatable Mind with Mark Devine, really working on fleshing out some of the mindset performance issues that individuals might have in wanting to increase their athletic performance or their athletic endurance. So that's been really exciting and new for me and has sort of thrown me into a whole new arena, which I've loved.

That's fantastic. And congratulations and kudos for everything you've accomplished and thank you for the good work you're doing because it's really, really important.

Well, thank you. Yeah, it's amazing and it's an incredible time, I think right now to be in the mental health space, specifically because I think that we're becoming much more curious about what works and what doesn't and allowing ourselves to really kind of flex muscles outside of the standard on the couch therapy, which I think is really, really important. I think, for example, podcasts can be an incredible resource for individuals who are struggling with mental. And the truth is that standard talk therapy doesn't work for everybody. And so I love where we are right now in the mental health space in really flexing different muscles and getting curious about what could work and maybe what's not.

This is fantastic. Well, great. Well, let's jump into our topics for today. Speaking of curiosity. So the three things that we're going to talk about are, first, why is it important to be internally curious? Second, how does internal curiosity help us to be better negotiators? And then lastly, how can we maximize curiosity during the conversation? So let's start off with number one, when we say internal curiosity, what do we mean by that?

So when I talk about curiosity, and specifically internal curiosity, I'm talking about us being an inquiry around how we think, how we feel and how we behave. And so when I, for example, am becoming internally curious, it's a about, you know, what am I thinking at any given moment? What are the thought patterns that I'm. What are the thought patterns that I use that work, and what are the ones that I use that don't. When I'm getting curious about my internal feelings, I'm wondering, what am I feeling right now? You know, so often, for example, we have standard ways of answering that, you know, fine and okay, by the way, are not emotions, but people you like. How are you feeling? I'm okay. That's. I have no idea what that means. You know, okay could mean I'm angry and furious, or it could mean I'm sad, or it could mean I'm feeling shame. So what Internal curiosity for me, around emotions is really being able to accurately identify and get curious about what emotion it is that we're feeling or emotions. Because we could also, of course, have more than one. And then around how I'm behaving, right. So when I'm curious about the behaviors that I'm engaging in, I'm wondering, are they in alignment with my values? You know, is this the way that I want to behave? Is my choice right now being informed by something that happened in my past or something that's going on for me in the present? So for me, it's really about being an inquiry. And I believe that when we are in inquiry with ourselves, we are investing in ourselves. We are creating a vehicle that allows for a greater return on investment. Because when we get curious, we actually make better choices and we are more productive and we allow ourselves greater creativity. So I believe that internal curiosity really fuels a better way of living, in so many words.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And one of the things I like to do is play devil's advocate here. So I'll play the role of the skeptic.

Oh, I love that. You're like my oldest child.

Exactly. So what about those people out there who say, well, all of this psychological woo woo is a waste of time. You know what the right thing to do is just do the thing and then get it done.

I love that you've said that, because first I've gotten that question not only from you, but from clients, you know, who say, like, well, why does it matter? You know, why does it matter if what I'm thinking right now is grounded in something that happened when I was 5, 15, or 25? I'm 45 years old right now. The choice in front of me is A or B or C, you know, what do I need right now in order to make that? And I guess my response would be, listen, we're complex human beings and we are complicated and it's not always easy and people don't always know. And in Fact, there's so much that goes on at a psychological level that we are not conscious of, that if we can pause for a minute and get curious, maybe we can become a little bit more conscious of, which can actually allow us to make maybe just an incrementally better choice than what we might have made if we weren't as curious or conscious. So for me, I guess, you know, I always like to think of, you know, do I want to be like two times tougher or do I want to be 10 to 20, 30 to 40 to 50 times tougher? Right. And I am always looking to elevate and level up. And so I want to go more beyond, you know, well, what's just adequate right now or what's good enough. I want to excel and really make the very best choices for myself that I can in any given moment. And for me, having that self awareness and self understanding and introspection aids me in order to do that.

Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. And it reminds me, I just bought a new car and it requires a different gasoline, so it's premium. But I'm just. Over the course of my entire life, I've been putting in the regular gas.

Regular.

And so I accidentally started putting in regular gas in the car. So half of the tank was full of regular. And then I said, oh, no, I need to put in the right gasoline. And Laura, I could tell, I could tell very clearly that there was something not right here. Right.

That's amazing. That's a great metaphor.

Exactly. Because what's inside will have an impact on what's outside. That's right. So somebody might look at the car and just say, hey, it's a nice car. Just drive it further, drive it faster. And I say, well, there's a problem on the inside here. We have to address it. And that's essentially what we're talking about here. But we won't know about what's going on in the inside if we don't take the time to go through this process of internal curiosity.

That's right. And our internal journey shapes our external experience. And so, you know, to understand how we are operating in our external experience and how we are contributing to our external experience, we have to, from my perspective, get curious about our internal journey and know more about that.

Absolutely. And what's interesting, too. Let's go back to the person who might be skeptical of all of this. Yeah, just do what you need to do. All right. Let's say you are able to push through and then do what you need to do, and then you're able to do it actually at a decently high level. But did you enjoy that? How was that experience? Right. Because I can't just focus on the outcome. We have to think about the process and how we felt about it too. Because if you present somebody with the option, hey, you could be successful and miserable versus hey, you can be successful and feel good about yourself, the obvious answer is feel good about yourself. Right. But a lot of times we're not willing to do the internal work in order to get there.

That's right. And I think, you know, what's really important to me sometimes too is, you know, we're always talking about like, well, what's your next step? Step, you know, what are you going to do next? What's your next best choice going to be? And I like to weave in the idea of how do you want to feel next? You know, like in your next step, how do you want to feel? Because it's not just about the doing part of that. I mean, we like to believe that we are doing and thinking beings and we like to kind of think of this feeling being is something that like, yeah, maybe we experience during Christmas time because it's nostalgic, or during our anniversary when we hold up the idea of having a loved one, or maybe if we lose a parent and we experience grief. But like, all these other feelings, like, you know, I'll keep them at bay for now until I'm ready to address them. But the truth is that we are walking around feeling beings all the time. And so if we can have a greater understanding of where those feelings are coming from and integrate them with our thoughts and our behaviors, that integration to me means more integrity. It means more thoughtful and meaningful choices that allow us to move forward with our values intact.

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Yeah, so I think that this part is really important because from my perspective, I like to think of everything that we've gone through up until this point, everything that we thought, felt, behaved, related, all of our relationships kind of find themselves in a metaphorical backpack on our back. And when we move into any experience, any next challenge, any next job interview, any next difficult conversation, you know, with somebody that's in front of us, we bring with us that backpack. And if we understand what's in the backpack, then we can actually utilize things that are in the backpack to make us better negotiators or to allow us to be more present in conversation. And I'll give you an example of that. So let's say, for example, in my previous job, I had a boss that never gave me positive feedback, ever. And was not only, like, devoid of, you know, positive feedback, but also layered on criticism and layered it on pretty heavily. That job's over. I'm in a new job, I have a new boss, and I come into her office and our first performance review, and she starts in. But the language that she uses to transition some of her sentences is the exact same language that my previous boss used. Now, my brain, just because of neuroscience, is going to naturally associate, uh oh, like, there's that word. What's coming next is criticism. Uh oh, there's that word. What's coming next is criticism. And so I might literally shut down. Like, I might begin to turn the volume down on her and put up my walls, because I have this. Have had this experience before, and so I believe this is what's coming. But she might be sitting there giving me nothing but praise and. Or constructive criticism that's really useful for me and important for me to hear. But if I don't understand that my response to what she's saying is based on a previous experience that I had with the previous boss, then I'm going to be open to receiving that, and I'm not going to even necessarily hear what she has to say. So for me, understanding and getting internally curious about the way that I'm thinking, feeling, and behaving at any given moment allows me to show up and be present and to understand if the things in my backpack right now are maybe preventing me from being a good negotiator in that moment, or if they are helping me be a good negotiator in that moment. Does that make sense?

Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. And what I like about this is that we can look at it from the lens of our own experience and our own goals in these negotiations, but also from the experience of somebody else on the other side, because we've probably had situations where we Said something that was benign, and then somebody took it the complete wrong way. And you're saying, what in the world just happened?

That's right.

I was trying to be nice. What is wrong with you? And so we can recognize how relationships start to break down because of the baggage that you described.

Right? That's an excellent point. Because I think the truth is, is that curiosity is contagious. And so the more curious that we can also be internally with ourselves, that provides sort of a vehicle for us to be curious, just like you said, about how our engagement with somebody else might be impacting them. And we might even be able to get curious about them, too. Like, I wonder if one of the reasons why they're shutting down right now is because maybe they had a previous boss who was XYZ or whatever it is, you know? So I think that. I think that sort of dual relationship is really important. And the way that the arrow can kind of go both ways is critical to think about.

Absolutely. And that's something that I found very helpful as a mediator and in my negotiations, too. I remember in the book called the Charisma Myth, one of the things that she said you could do is essentially psychologically give somebody a pass for bad behavior. Not in that you're not holding people accountable in the real world, but in your head, just so you don't get all caught up in it. You can make up an excuse for them. And I thought it was really interesting, so I tried it one time. And so let's say somebody is blowing up in the mediation, acting improperly, accusing me of things, accusing the other side of things. And then I say to myself, I'm getting. I'm recognizing. I'm starting to get upset. Then I say, you know what? Their dog might have died this morning. You know, they might have lost their job, something like that. They might have broken up with a loved one. And so I don't know if that's true, but it helps me to depersonalize personal attack. And so I can say, no, that wasn't about me. And so now I can get to the point where I don't need to make up that excuse. I can just say, yeah, that probably wasn't about me. And it helps me to keep my head in the game during a difficult conversation.

Yeah, I think that's essential. You know, when you. When you talk about that, it really makes me think of, in so many ways, some of the work that I do with my client. A lot of it is really about discovery. It's about kind of Understanding, you know, what, where and when is my client most willing to get curious with me? And where and when are they going to shut down real quick? And it was really interesting, for example, in sessions with adolescents, because when I brought parents in for some kind of parent education, I would begin to understand maybe why an adolescent might have a difficult time with me when I'm talking a certain way, because, oh, mom does the same thing. And so her experience of me in that moment is more like a mom than maybe it is like a therapist. So I think it's so important, this curiosity piece for us to just consider how it might serve the conversation. And I think sometimes we worry that curiosity again is sort of this like psychobabble nonsense that doesn't really get us very far. But in fact, I think the toughest individuals and the ones that really hone in their skill set are the most curious individuals.

Absolutely. And now during the conversation, because when we're talking about this, a lot of it sounds like pre work before the conversation. Is it possible to be curious internally during a conversation?

I think so, very much so. I mean, for me, for example, one of the things that I like to talk about is really understanding what's showing us for us by tuning into our own body. Right. And so by considering our own body language. So for example, if somebody says something and you immediately back up, I'm backing up now, but if you immediately back up in your chair, what is that about in that moment? And can you quickly check in with yourself and say, I just literally created six more inches of distance from this person in this moment? What does that say? Am I uncomfortable with something they said and I want to create space? Am I feeling like maybe attacked and I'm trying to get away? You know, what is it that's happening right now for me that is showing up physically in this manifestation? So I always think, I always love this idea of body language and understanding where our body language is. Or for example, if you are with somebody in conversation and they scratch their nose and then you scratch your nose, are you then maybe in a greater opportunity for empathy in that moment because you are literally mimicking their behavior not consciously, but you notice that you're actually doing it, can tune in and become curious and just ask ourselves short little bits of question. Listen, it doesn't need to be a 20 minute internal therapy session here, but just inquire sometimes about what's going on I think can really serve the conversation.

Absolutely. It's incredibly powerful. And I do the same thing a lot of times. If it's something. Usually it's blocking behavior. So it's blocking and then leading back a little bit. And I say the simple question I ask myself is, what was that? I saw you do that. What was that? Or maybe it was a response that came just a little bit too. It was a little bit too short, just too sharp. And I'm like, oh, you might have caused some damage. What was that? Right, okay. Well, yeah, that was something. And I think that's one of the big, big things we have to recognize it's something. And it's really funny because it's almost like our subconscious is signaling to ourselves constantly that there's something either amiss or maybe something that we like or whatever it is. But there are signals. But since we're not very curious, a lot of times, at least not naturally curious about our internal states, we often miss it. So it's important for us to start to generate and cultivate this new cognitive habit.

Yeah, and I think, and I'm going to go back to also what you brought up in the first question, which is, does. Is it both ways, too? And I think, too, we can get really curious about how somebody else is responding physically. I mean, I, when I'm in sessions with clients, will observe it out loud, which I wouldn't necessarily recommend in a conversation with someone. But for example, if the client grabs a blanket and covers themselves after we've had a difficult conversation, I'll point out to them, you know, I noticed you covered yourself with that blanket. Do you feel like you need some kind of, like, hug right now? Right, because they're sort of metaphorically getting it from the blanket. But I think that we can also do that when we are in conversation and in negotiation with another individual. If they, for example, begin to back off, they cross their arms, they maybe even turn their shoulder a little bit, as if they're turning away from you. How can you begin to weave that into your own knowledge and understanding of maybe what it is that they need, right then in order to be more in the arena with you? Because they're getting out of the arena, Right. So what is it that you might be able to do? Do you soften your tone? Do you pause for a minute? You know, what are the things that you can do? Maybe allow them to come back into the conversation. You use something that I love so much, which is, how do you call people in rather than call people out? And I think that we can begin to call people in more to conversation when we are in tune and curious about when are they shutting down?

Absolutely. And this is great. I think I need to have an episode just fully on body language at some point. It's kind of ridiculous. We're at 215 plus episodes and I haven't done it yet. But for anybody out there who wants to learn more about body language, check out the book what Everybody Is Thinking by Joe Navarro, FBI Agent. Whenever counterintelligence people read books about persuasion or reading, people read that book.

Yeah, exactly.

Very good. So with the la. With the time we have left, let's cover the last part when we're talking about curiosity during the conversation, more specifically externally, because we've been focusing a lot on the internal curiosity. What are some unique ways that we can mobilize curiosity externally?

Well, I think language is key. I think language is really, really important. For example, right now, it feels like people are really hot. It's an election year, and there's a lot going on in our country. And so oftentimes people are starting out conversations with things like, how could you. Which immediately puts the other individual in a defensive position because it's accusatory. Right. And so even just a tweak in language of I'm wondering what makes you right, or I'm wondering why, and why is even a word that sometimes I hesitate to use because why also sometimes initially, like, makes you feel like a child, you know, when someone says, like, well, why'd you do that? That's what teachers and parents say to us all the time. Right. So I think just tweaking our language a little bit and understanding that too. You know, another thing that I think is really important right now is that there's this idea of, well, I just don't understand. Well, okay, then let's get curious about it. You know, how come, gosh, I'm so curious about that. Right? Like, that's even to me, like, the tone that we use. And I think even using that word curiosity in conversation can really create more of a collaboration than a debate. Right. Because you're calling, again to use your language, calling somebody in rather than calling somebody out, which I think is so essential, because, you know, we know that defensiveness also increases our experience of shame because it feels like we've done something wrong. So the language around, how could, you know, how could you vote for that person? Right. Immediately is, oh, my gosh, am I doing something wrong? Let me defend my choice rather than let me get curious about it.

Absolutely. I think that's. Those are great examples. And going back to the point that you made, where sometimes people Say I just don't get it right. Well, then just say, help me to understand.

Exactly.

Really easy way to do it. And I honestly think, Lara, that curiosity is almost like a magic word because it doesn't offend people too much. I can't think of one time in a difficult conversation I've been in or somebody else who's been talking about negotiation for a while. When they use the term curious, people don't say, you're curious. I am offended. And so it really softens the approach because if you just say out of curiosity or I'm curious, usually people receive that really well. And I think if. Especially if you're having trouble empathizing with somebody in the moment, just using those softeners can do wonders when it comes to getting people to engage more wholeheartedly in the conversation.

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And in my experience as a psychologist, it's interesting because for the first few years in my work, you know, I really wanted. I wanted to do therapy really well. You know, I wanted to make sure that I was pulling out all of the psychological constructs and the verbiage and all the vernacular that made me sound really smart and, you know, made me present all these ideas to the client who, oh, my gosh, had maybe never thought about that before. And I realized, quite frankly, that it, like, was horrible. It went nowhere. It was awful. And it wasn't until I began to. And I remember actually the minute that I was. I was in a. A supervision, like a supervisory role, and I was sitting with another clinician in a therapy room. They were doing therapy with the parents, and I was observing. And I remember she said, I would like us to all get curious about this. And I, like, it was, like, mind blowing to me because I'd never heard a therapist use that word before. And I was like, I'm gonna start doing that. And the minute I started doing it and changing my language with my clients and allowing myself to be more in collaboration with them rather than teach them, it just shifted the work substantially. And I've never turned back because it's just worked so well, and clients are so much more responsive to it. And similarly, when I've done consulting work and gone in to C Suites and had conversations, it never goes well when I try and teach them them something. You know, they all have egos too. And so it's really about, I want to get curious what's working, what's not. You know, I want. I want to be in collaboration with you. Can we get curious together about this. So I agree. I think that word is a magic word.

Yeah. And that's. That's a really interesting approach, too. And I'm thinking about some of the conversations that I've had, and I think actually saying that explicitly, let's both collaboratively get curious. Because the thing about curiosity is you can't say, yeah, that guy, he's so arrogant. He's always curious. Arrogant people aren't curious.

Exactly. That's right. Yeah.

And so you're assuming a stance of humility that's endearing, that's inviting. And so you're not just saying, hey, I'm asking questions, you're answering it. So you're the only person getting vulnerable. But when you're saying, let's get curious together, you're saying, hey, I'm going to be curious, too. I'm going to be humble and vulnerable, and I'm inviting you to do the same thing. And it'll just lower the barriers in the conversation, too.

Yeah. And I think the other thing that it does, too, is it gives us permission to not have an answer. You know, it gives us permission to not end the conversation with, either, I've changed your mind or you've changed mine. You know, it just gives us an opportunity to sort of, like, explore the uncertain. Even if we're relatively certain in our ideas, it's sort of like we can hang up that jacket for a little bit and just enjoy the part. So I think that part is really important, too, because I think sometimes, and I'm sure you know this better than anybody, that we enter into conversation with a specific goal in mind of that ending a certain way, you know, and how do we allow ourselves and give ourselves permission both, you know, externally and internally, to not always end it that way?

Yes. And, Laura, this is. This is perfect timing because yesterday I was in a Q and A session on how to have difficult conversations about race. So that's something that I've started to do this year because with the American Negotiation Institute, you know, our motto is, the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And so right now, the difficult conversations are in race, politics, not just business and law, where I feel very comfortable.

Right.

So I started off the Q and A session, and I said, hey, listen, I want everybody to feel comfortable here. This is a safe space. And I'll be honest, I don't know all the answers here. You're probably going to ask something at some point where I don't know, and that's okay, too. So don't feel Bad. You can't hurt my feelings. And let's just assume the best of intentions. And then, of course, as the conversation went on, a person asked a fantastic question, and I answered it for a little bit, but then I said, you know what? I think I've reached the extent of my knowledge on this question, and I know it's insufficient as it relates to an answer for you. So I'm curious, too. I need to go and I need to learn a little bit more, and then maybe I can come back and we can continue the conversation. But it is so liberating. Oh, that's the best word in a difficult conversation. And to be able to say, I don't know, that's a good question. I'm curious about that, too.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, and I think, you know, it shows our humanity, you know, and I think in my work with clients, when I've said to clients, you know, because they'll look at me desperate, wanting me to fix them, wanting me to give them that magic golden ticket out of their depression, anxiety, addiction, bad relationship, and when I say, you know, I don't know, but maybe we could get curious about it, you know, it's like, okay, you know, we don't always have to know. So I think it allows us to really take. Take that turn of stepping into maybe each other's shoes. The shoes of common humanity, of uncertainty and unknowing.

Exactly. Well, this has been great, a lot of fun, and I wish we could just keep on going. So that means we're definitely going to have you back on the show. But before you go, two things. Can you give a challenge for the listeners, and can you also tell the listeners a little bit more about what you do and where they can reach you?

Yeah, absolutely. So the first one is actually the easiest one, which is a challenge for the listeners. And. And what I challenge each listener to do today is to pick one thing to get curious about. What are you thinking? How are you feeling? Or how are you behaving? And just get curious about it. Just get curious about, you know, what am I thinking today? What are the thoughts that are popping up for me right now? What did I think about this podcast episode? Did I like it? Did I not like it? Right. Or how are you feeling? And try and use a word that you're not used to using. And by the way, okay, inform or not feelings, Right? And then also how, in terms of your behavior, like, what are you curious about there? Are you curious about why you're picking certain choices, or are your behaviors in alignment with your value system. Right. So that's my challenge. Just get curious today about one of those things, either the way you're thinking, how you're feeling, or how you're behaving and where you can find me. It's always the more difficult one because sometimes I forget where people can find me. So I am certainly on Instagram. Rlaura Pence. You can also go to my website, drlaurapence.com you can sign up for my newsletter where I unravel something each week that, to me, doesn't really make a lot of sense. And so let's get curious about it together. I've also recently come out with a product called lifebox. It's spelled L I G H F B O X, which is a box of 180 questions and prompts that spark curiosity. So you can go to lifebox.com and check that out as well.

Very cool. That's awesome. Well, Laura, thank you so much for coming on the show today. We really appreciate it. Congratulations. You've just joined an elite club by listening to a full episode. You're now officially on the Negotiate Anything team. So welcome aboard. What most team members do is they subscribe to the podcast because that allows them to automatically get the latest episodes of the show. The best things in life lie on the other side of difficult conversations. Keep learning, keep practicing, and keep getting better. Your relationships will improve, your career will soar, and you'll have the confidence you need to get the most out of these crucial conversations. Again, thank you for joining the team. We're excited to have you, and I will see you at in the next episode. I'll catch you later.