How to Win Sales Negotiations with Kim Orlesky

Hello, my friends, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. This show is produced by the American Negotiation Institute and with over 5 million downloads and listeners in over 180 countries, listeners just like you have made this the number one negotiation podcast in the world. Hi, my name is Kwame Christian and I am the founder and CEO of the American Negotiation Institute here at A&I. We believe that the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And we are passionate about providing you with the best content that will help you to make your difficult conversations easier, both at work and at home. Lastly, I want to remind you that we offer consulting and conduct trainings both virtually and in person all around the world. Our focus is in three main areas. First, negotiation and conflict resolution. Second, leadership. And lastly, diversity, equity and inclusion. Check the link in the description below to learn more about how we could work with you and your team. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Kim, thanks for joining us today.

Thank you so much for having me. I am so excited to be here.

We are excited to have you. We connected on LinkedIn and now we are connecting here. I knew the listeners would get a lot out of this, so we're very, very excited to have you here too.

Oh, thank you. I love sharing as much sales and sales insight as I possibly can.

Fantastic. Well, perfect. Well, let's get started by telling the listeners a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Yeah. So I am the president of one of the fastest growing entrepreneurial and small business sales schools helping those that are selling premium services into businesses. So I work with a lot of everything from engineers, business consultants, marketing agencies, and we have delivered and created the simplest sales process without creating it any simpler so that you can get the premium services at the premium price every single time.

Fantastic. That's great. And also, don't forget, let the audience know you have a book too, right?

I do, yeah. So on top of just owning my own company, I do deliver a lot of different content, everything from videos as well as written. And my latest book, Sell More Faster is available right now, which has really taken the highlights of everything we teach in our 10 week program and downloaded it into a book format. Because when I was creating my company, I wanted there to be an opportunity for people that may not be formal students of our program to still feel like they are students of what we're doing. And so I'm always happy to have that available and everything that we're going to be talking about today is written in that book.

Fantastic. Perfect. Yes. So, audience, make sure you pick that up when you get a chance. And yeah, today, very excited about this. We are going to talk about three really important topics when it comes to sales and sales negotiations. And the first one is red flags for a bad deal. So how do we know whether or not this is a good deal for us to pursue? How to assume an authoritative power position and then lastly, having those negotiations over budget. I know for people in sales, that is one of the most frustrating parts of the process. So we're definitely going to spend some time digging in there. So how about we just start off with identifying whether or not it's a good deal. Can you tell us a bit more about that? Yeah.

So, I mean, when I was in sales, I did 10 years of corporate sales for Xerox and American Express. And at the end of the day, we lived in this, you know, kill and eat type of mentality. Right. You were always going after whatever was, was showing up. And. And as even entrepreneurs sometimes, we often filter out whether a client is a good prospect or not as well. Do they have a credit card and a pulse? And that sounds like a really good idea. Only to find out that, you know, if we pursue every single opportunity, like can end up getting stuck in what I like to call the winner's curse. You can sometimes win the deal and then curse yourself every single day that you're dealing with this terrible client, the one that's taking up too much time, demanding way too much, doesn't understand the value. And so when we started the program ko Sales U, I wanted us to start looking at from a different complete mind shift where it wasn't that we had to go out there and talk to every single person, but rather, you know, ask yourself, when I'm sitting in an opportunity with a client, is this the right person for me? Do they fit that ideal buyer Persona for myself? Do I want to work with them when I understand what their goals and ambitions are? Does that make me really excited? And if the answer is no, I think we need to be much more careful and respect ourselves a little bit more in the idea that we can actually walk away from those opportunities. We'll talk a little bit more about whether they have the budget and other types of lead qualification aspects of this. But when we start to understand that, you know, we don't need to say yes to everybody that has that credit card and the pulse, we can actually hold ourselves as a higher ground and ultimately it will allow our prospects to want us even more.

I love this point. And it's a fantastic point because a lot of times when we are in those types of conversations, when we have the opportunity to close a deal, we feel almost obligated to do so. And I, I, whenever I'm working with people, I talk about the fact that negotiation isn't the art of deal, it's the art of deal discovery, coming together with the other side to figure out whether or not a deal even exists. And I really like the point that you made about determining whether or not it's a good fit by your level of excitement. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?

Yeah. So I mean, when we're going and getting to that lead qualification side, even determining if it's the right deal, old school sales was really focused on, well, what's your client's challenge, what's their problem and can you solve that problem? And this is really stemmed from Challenger really owned the space in this Challenger sales model which was, you know, find out what the client's problem is, put a band aid on that problem and, you know, it's all fixed. And so one of the things that we would say when I was working in corporate sales, I mean, this was an iconic question that we would ask is, you know, Mr. Or Mrs. Customer, what is keeping you up at night? And we would like use that as the forefront of starting the conversation. Now here's the reality is that, I mean, in today's day and age, Dr. Google and WebMD have solved every problem for everyone that has ever existed. You know, there are no problems for our clients anymore. And anything that they feel that they have, they just go to Google Search and they find the top four vendors that can appease them and, or they're wiki how ing the solution and they find out the solution is just way too difficult. They're like, well, maybe it's not that much of a problem anymore. We don't want to be band aid solutions at the end of the day, right? We're not looking for the bleeding wound so we can throw a band aid on it, but rather we want to help our clients achieve more. We want to be the catalysts and the opportunities as partners in a lifetime of discovery. What more do you want to achieve, Mr. And Mr. Customer? Right. What, you know, what, what are your goals? What are your aspirations and, and how do you align with them? And it's so important to understand what those big picture goals are because number one, if the deal goes south, right, hopefully their goals haven't dramatically changed and you can always go back to that point and continue to recreate a good solution. The other thing behind this is that most people aren't looking for unless they're in a pain. Like a seriously painful solution, which actually might be a red flag on like the deals that we actually walk altogether. But I mean, when people are looking for romantic relationships and romantic partners, we don't choose the person that we're going to walk down the aisle with because they just solve us the pain of being single. Like, boo hoo hoo, I'm so sad, I'm so lonely, I'm so single, right? Like, I'm just going to find somebody that's going to solve that pain. But rather we, we marry the person that is going to help us achieve our goals and our aspirations better, faster with, with more fun and excitement than anyone else. Like, you know, I want to, I want to build my career, I want to go traveling, I want to, you know, start a family. And we're going find somebody that aligns with that. And our clients are no different than that. I mean, we need to start looking at this. Not that we're going to be marrying every single client, but at the end of the day, if you want your clients to be lifetime partners with you, I mean, why don't we start looking at how we can help them achieve more? Not just can we solve a quick pain all the way through.

This is brilliant. I think that's a really great approach. Because you're right, a lot of times we do focus on those pain points. How can I solve that pain? And I think when it comes to the human desire, we are more focused on getting toward comfort. So that might be a quicker way to get that sale. But it doesn't really help us determine whether or not it's a good sale. Because like you said, we're talking about long term solutions. Because once that pain is gone, you might not be the best fit at that point. Is that what I'm hearing?

Oh, absolutely. I mean, when you are goal and ambition and aspirational oriented, I mean, there's always something more the clients can use with you or they have the opportunity. Like, you know, listen, Kwame helped me get from here to here because of what he did. I mean, you know, my business has grown 20%. I mean, we're more profitable than we ever have been. You know, da, da, da. Whereas, you know, if you're just being pain oriented, you know, what's the challenge? What's the pain? What are you suffering from? It's like, well, you know, I went with them because My website sucked, and now it doesn't suck nearly as much anymore. And you're like, well, that's fantastic. Like, what more can we do for you? We want our clients to get to a point where they would stand on a mountaintop and sing our praises. And we only do that for the partners and the vendors that we work with because we have helped us achieve that much more. We've moved ourselves, we punched through ceilings, and we are so much greater than we were before. So we need to have those bigger conversations with clients so that we can help align with what they will get after they are finished working with us. Not just what will they get once we're done, it's what do they achieve so much further beyond that timeline.

Does your company invest in professional development training? If you believe that your team would benefit from a negotiation workshop, all you need to do is go to our website, fill out the workshop request form, and then we'll set up a time to chat. These workshops are completely customizable, and we've done them all around the country. Negotiation and conflict resolution skills are beneficial across all professions, but they're especially useful in procurement, purchasing, sales, sourcing, and contract management. Our calendar is filling up quickly and we even have some workshops scheduled for next year if you think you might want one. I'd suggest reaching out soon so you don't miss out. Check out the link in the description to learn more and we will be right back after this. Oh, this is brilliant. And for the listeners out there, I want to make sure that you're seeing these couple of major, major points. Because, Kim, it sounds like what you're saying is before we even get into the mode of persuasion, we're stepping into the mode of curiosity and we're learning more about the client. Not in a way to aggressively persuade them in the future, but with genuine curiosity to figure out what it is that they want and need beyond the immediate need in order for you to create longer, deeper lasting relationships that creates more value for everyone involved.

Absolutely. I mean, some of the best skills you could ever have as a salesperson, as a business owner, as somebody just in business development, is just being genuinely curious. I mean, there's a reason why, you know, you gain so much in your first year working as a salesperson. It's not because you're more skilled than anyone else. It's because you don't know. And so you just ask a lot of questions. This is the other thing that a lot of people that will come to me and say, well, I'm an Introvert, right? I'm introverted or I don't really. I can't sell because I don't want to be in those rooms. I can't be pushy. And I'm like, good, you shouldn't be. Because all you really need to do is you need to ask better questions, continue to ask them. And what does that mean? And why is that important? And when you achieve that, Mr. And Mrs. Customer, how will that make you feel? Because at the end of the day, I mean, Maya Angelou said this all the time. She said people will forget what you said and they'll forget what you did, but they'll never forget how you felt. And so we want to make sure we understand how a client will feel once they've achieved that level of success. And making sure that every meeting that we're with them, we leave them feeling greater than where they were when they started.

I love it. No, this is beautiful. I think this is a great place to start. And then now when we shift from gathering this information, let's say we have these conversations, we start to build that relationship and we are learning more about what they want and need and their vision for the future. When we move into the next thing, we're going to talk about approaching it from the authoritative power position. What do you mean by that?

Throughout the entire process with our clients, I mean, we need to be standing shoulder to shoulder with them and it's not enough to get there. And because we've seen the solution, we're running to the very end of the marathon and saying, hey, we're all the way over here. When you make it over here, customer, we'll be here waiting for you. Here's a proposal. We'll see you at the end. I mean, number one, okay, I have a big pet peeve. Especially if you're a person that is trying to sell a high value service, you do not send your proposal via email. Okay? We don't propose to our spouses via email. Hey, baby, want to get hitched? Send. Right? So the end of the day, I mean, you know, if we're going ahead and we're sending our proposals via email, and like, this is the most important meeting that you could ever have with a client. And yet somehow we have relegated the most important moment that we could ever have with a client to the lowest form of communication, which is email. I mean, you send somebody an email in a proposal, where's the first place they go? To the pricing page, right? Like there's like, okay, well, you know, I understand this journey that we've gone on. And I'm just going to go right to the price, right? You know, like the person's opening up the proposal email and she's checking out the JPEG of the ring and like, wow. I don't know if it's really that big. Like, you know, like, I don't know if I should say yes or not.

Right.

I mean, this isn't what it's about and yet it's not. It's not that, you know, when we get to the proposal stage that we need to take this power position, but rather, I mean, the difference between assertiveness, just taking ownership versus control. I mean, it's a very finite, very nuanced. We still want this to be a collaborative process. We still want to be able to go with our client and be like, this is where you are going to be and this is how bad life will suck if nothing changes. This is where you said you want to be and this is what the difference is going to be and this is what it's going to look like working with us together. And here's the timeline. This is when we want to be finished. This is what's going to happen after we're no longer working together. These were the projects that you have on the go and all the reasons why that need to be finished, which through the magic of sales, means that we need to be starting this project today or within two weeks of today, because then everything else falls behind. So it's so important. But it's not that we're ever taking control, it's just that we're helping to guide, we're being a tour guide on this conversation with our client versus somebody that's at the very end.

Right. I like this. I really like this. And I think one of the things that people struggled with with sales is the perception from the outside looking in that in order to be successful in sales, you have to use these high pressure techniques where you're almost forcing or bullying or annoying people into these deals. But what you're saying, it's a softer process.

Oh, it's. I mean, it's so much more intentional when we do it this way. Right. I was trained in like the boiler room esque type of sales, right. You know, the wolf of Wall street and everything. El, it was like, here's your desk, here's your phone. Go call people and do whatever it takes to make the deal done. And I remember sitting across from boardroom tables knowing that this was the closing meeting with a client. I would have My paperwork, and I'd have the pen, and it would sit there on the desk, and I'd be like, okay, what do we need to do to make this happen today? And you would. The first one to blink. Loss. You did not leave these rooms until these deals were signed, sealed, and delivered. And yet I would come back and, yeah, it was always really exciting to get the deal. But what was even more exciting was when somebody would shake your hand and be like, you know what? Thank you. Thank you for doing this with us. Thank you so much for all the time you took to really understand us. And that was when I realized that it wasn't about the deal. It was about the relationship. And when we look at it like this and we ask ourselves, okay, what else do I need to find out about the client? Know how else can I help them beyond what we're talking? Like, what do they get? Even after we're no longer, you know, in this active pursuit of this project or this classroom or whatever it is that you're doing, Whether that's a finite period of time or maybe a long, longer period of time. But there's this process where you are working directly with the client, and then, you know, you'll have something else. What does the client get after you're done? The sale. And you can't articulate that before you get to the proposal. You haven't even done yourself a service, nor the client. And I mean, this goes into. When we get into return our investment and everything else. But this is up to you to ask the questions and find out the truth from your client and not be the bearer of all news and tell your client exactly what they need to hear. Because anything you tell anyone is up for skepticism. Well, that happens under those particular conditions, under that particular economic status, when those companies are that big. But I'm unique and I'm different, and that's not me. Whereas when we turn it around and we ask our clients for their truth and they tell us, we arm ourselves with so much more information that ultimately we can help them, and they know the value of this relationship going forward.

I love this. Yeah. I cannot add anything to that. That was fantastic.

I might have done something with time or two, it wouldn't sound like it.

Well, great. Well, let's move on to the issue of budget, because I know that's where a lot of people wanted to focus their time here. So where should we start when it comes to budget?

Yeah. So, I mean, I. I'm a huge believer that we need to have a financial conversation early on in the conversation, in the conversation with a client and when, when we're going through our entire Kayo sales zoo sales process. I mean your very first, like face to face, voice to voice, you know, Skype or Zoom meeting with a client does focus on this lead qualification area, which is budget. Now where unfortunately too many people focus on is they start off the conversation by asking, well, how much do you have to spend on this project or how much do you think this is going to be worth? And this is a terrible question. Like we were trained to do this in sales. When I worked for Xerox, it was a requirement that you had to ask the client, how much do they have for a budget for this? Now here's the reality is I could ask anybody about how much they have to spend on anything and I will get the exact same answer. I have nothing, right? There's no budget, right? Or whatever the number is, they're going to throw it out so low that you're like, okay, now I got to like pigeonhole the solution to what exactly they've told me. I mean people, unless, unless this person is so well prepared, your client is so well prepared that they have started to like sock away money into a savings account to know how much they're going to spend on this. Honestly, they don't have an idea. They have no complete idea. And one of my favorite quotes to go when I'm doing presentations on this is a budget will tell you what you can't afford, but it won't stop you from buying it. And so just by understanding what somebody's budget is doesn't prevent somebody from buying it even when their budget is zero. So we do want to have a financially driven conversation because financially driven conversations are awkward. And the faster we can get over the awkwardness, the more open and honest and transparent we can have as a conversation with our client. But it's not about asking them, how much do you have to spend? How much are you willing to bleed into this project? How much are you willing to give up for this? This isn't what this is about. But going back to the idea of goal oriented, aspirational, much bigger than anything else is what will you be able to do? Or how much will your company grow when this project is working? When we get people to start talking about the financial growth of their organization? Well, I'm going to be more profitable. I'm going to be able to attract new clients and new geographies. I'm going to be able to grow my business this much more that's number one, it's an easier conversation to have because it's aspirational. But number two, as we continue to go down the path and the client has now articulated how much they could see their company growing, it's much easier for them to justify $40,000 to spend with you when they know they're going to be potentially growing $400,000. Right? It's like, okay, well, this is the entire pie and you just want to take a slice of this pie. Whereas when we ask them how much you have to spend, that is the piece. And we now have to say, okay, give this up, right, and you're going to get something in return. But I still can't articulate what that return on investment is. Whereas when we ask them how much will it grow? Okay, understood that. And if we were a fraction of that, would that make sense? The client should be able to say, yeah, that makes sense. Now they have articulated what their return on investment would be.

That makes a lot of sense. I like that. I really like that. Because what you're doing here is you're completely reframing the conversation. You're starting from a different point. And it makes it a lot easier for the client to have a better understanding of what it is they get. And when they compare that to the, when they compare their return on investment to the amount of investment they're going to make, it makes it a lot clearer why they should purchase.

Well, it's huge. And this is the difference between those that are selling premium services for premium prices versus those those that are coming in with their value proposition of like, well, we do it cheaper, better, faster. I mean, at the end of the day, you know, and if your client is like determined that the only thing they want to do is save money, that we talked about red flags and the value and the lead qualification, that's a red flag for me, right? Like if, you know, if that's only that they want to save money. Because anybody whose only goal is to save money, save money, save money, save money. That's a sinking ship, right? You know, they're only wanting to save the money because, you know, they just can't see themselves growing anym. Whereas we need to get better at taking it that one step further, connecting the dots, a couple extra dots beyond that, it's not the amount of money that they save and not, not the amount of money that time that they save. But what do they do with that time savings or money savings? How do they reinvest that inside a company? And what More can they do? Because when you're able to save even a few dollars or, you know, a few hours of your time, what more would you do? Customer. And now we get them to start getting to that bigger picture. Well, I suppose I would make more sales calls. Awesome. And if you made whatever the number of sales calls you could in the three hours that you would save, like, how would that impact your business? Oh, I suppose we could easily grow our business by 10% or 15%. Oh, fantastic. Now you have started to quantify that investment for your client without them realizing it later on. I mean, it all comes in circles back. But now they understand what the value of time savings or money savings ultimately will be to their business, not just this arbitrary number that we've thrown out.

And see, this is brilliant because this loops into the first point. Because what we're doing in this process is essentially we're asking questions that leads them to create your anchor for you right in their minds. And so, again, it's building up this bigger number that you can compare. So it's using the contrasting principle to make what you're saying a lot more palatable. But. But you're not forcing them into doing it. You're not bullying them or putting these numbers on them. You're asking questions, and they're generating it themselves, which makes it a lot more powerful.

It's so powerful. And I mean, at the end of the day, we want our clients to be dreamers, right? The reality is when we're creating this entire sales conversation, I mean, we need to know where they will be and the consequences of them staying status quo for another day. And we will ask them those questions, because the unfortunate reality is almost every single person in every single company is somehow only one paycheck away from being completely bankrupt and destitute, or like one paycheck away from being, like, the biggest company that they've ever imagined, right? Or being a millionaire or whatever else it is. And so we want them to understand that. But when we take. When we help them to build the dream, right? What can you do? And then what can you do and what can you do? We want to work with those that will allow us the space to dream and will allow us. Us to feel that much closer to it. And it no longer becomes the pain of what are the consequences that you're feeling? How do we solve that consequences? But what is the dream that you can possibly tangibly see realistically be able to achieve? And then we take away that dream, and that becomes really painful for a client. Because now that I've imagined, I bought my lotto ticket and I imagined myself buying a yacht and sailing through the South Pacific. And I have, we have sat there and we've talked about exactly how we're going to do this and then what that plan is going be. And now you're like, okay, but I'm going to take that away. You're like, no, I need to have that. Now. I must act on that. Now that sense of urgency comes into play. Because now I have articulated that for companies. I mean, this might be growing 10%. Great. And what would that allow you to do and what would that allow you to become? Well, if we were an extra 10% bigger than where we were, we would probably be able to invest in a brand new office space. We would probably be one of the top 50 companies growing in our geographic division. We want to apply for one of the top employers in our state and well, fantastic. And now that we've articulated that and you're like, okay, and if you don't change, how close will you be to that? And oh, well, we won't be okay. It's like, okay, well, let's get you back to that dream. Let's get you back to where you are because that's where you deserve to be and it's more fun that way. I don't know about you, but I mean, when I'm in a sales cycle with somebody, I want to be the catalyst of somebody's dreams, not the band aid to the bleeding wound.

That makes a lot of sense. Listeners. I don't know if you can tell, but I think Kim has done this successfully a few times. I don't know. I'm getting that vibe.

Just, just a few times. Just a few times. I mean, I do a lot of public speaking and everything. I'm also like, really well known for analogies. And I, I love, you know, I mean, because when you break it into analogies, whether it's like, you know, the, the relationships or sometimes, you know, people ask me, well, you know, sometimes I sell too much of the how, you know, the client never buys. And I said, well, you know, there's a difference between, you know, selling the cake and like providing them a recipe book. Right, the recipe book. The entire time you're focusing too much on the how. People are just going to say, well, okay, well, now that I know how to do it, I'm going to go try the recipe on myself versus just buying the cake. I mean, the biggest thing that we just need to know throughout the entire Process is the difference between the sale. One of my favorite analogies is the difference between the transportation versus the destination. And we need our clients to understand where they will be afterwards. When Delta goes ahead and sells you a vacation. I mean, number one, they focus you on Columbus, not in June or July when it's beautiful out. They focus it on you, like in the middle of February, right? Where you're like, holy smack, it is cold. I need to be out of here as quickly as possible. I can't spend one more day here. And then the very next scene that they show you, I mean, it's the beaches of Cancun or somewhere in the Caribbean. Maybe you're in Puerto Rico or something. But it's stunning and it's beautiful and there's the white sands and the ocean breeze and everything. And yet when you think about that and you're like, okay, but what does Delta actually sound? And almost every single time I get people to tell me, oh, well, they sell dreams and experiences and happiness and everything. And I said, no, I said, what Delta literally sells you is a rental seat on a plane. They don't even sell you the seat. They actually rent it to you for six hours. And I'm like, but here's the thing, is they focus you on the sale after the sell. The reason why you endure TSA and airline travel and being cattle prodded onto a plane and everything is because of where you're going to be the moment you get off that plane. That's what we're buying. And yet so many people, any service providers, any product providers, we focus too much on what we sell and not what your client experiences after they're finished with that experience.

Right? Now, that makes a lot of sense. And that's, first of all, again, brilliant analogy there. That's fantastic. And second of all, now, I've traveled a lot for the workshops. I do. And so now every time I'm going to be on a plane, I'm going to be thinking, I'm renting this seat. And as I'm getting on the plane, I'm going to be thinking about cattle process. So I appreciate that. Yeah.

You, like, you feel like you're like, so stuck and stuck in there. You're like, oh, my goodness, I would just want to get off this. Like, this is terrible. Right? We endure. We endure a lot. Right? And it's. Yeah. I mean, it's the beach, right? What's your client's beach? Right. What does that dream look like?

I love it. Well, perfect. This has been fantastic before. You go again. Let the client. Let the client see. Now let the listeners know again how they can get in touch with you. You.

Oh, thank you. I mean you found me on LinkedIn, so LinkedIn is my preferred method. Social media communication. I am one of LinkedIn's most influential sales leaders to follow. I'm constantly putting out videos, everything else like that. The other thing is go get a copy of Sell more faster if sales skills. Whether you are a dedicated salesperson or you're just somebody that believes that sales skills will help you in your life and I might be biased, but I honestly believe everyone should learn sales skills skills. It is a really my entire heart went into this book and it gives you everything you possibly could be to become a sales knockout.

Fantastic. Kim, thank you again for coming on the show. We really appreciate it.

Thank you so much for inviting me and having me here.

Hey, thanks for listening to this episode. If you're liking what you're hearing, please leave a review and subscribe. And tell your friends. Our goal is to help as many people as possible and when you leave reviews, it makes it easier for people to find us in the spot searches. Thanks again for being a listener. I'll catch you in the next one.