How to Work with (Almost) Anyone: Insights from Michael Bungay Stanier

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. Thanks for joining us today. With over 10 million downloads and listeners from more than 180 different countries, it's dedicated listeners just like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of of the American Negotiation Institute. Now, before we get into today's insightful conversation, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives. Have you ever found yourself wishing that you could navigate those high stakes conversations with more confidence? Or perhaps you're looking to empower your team with the art of persuasion and conflict resolution? At the American Negotiation Institute, we've crafted specialized keynotes and workshops tailored for those very needs. We've transformed the negotiation skills of professionals worldwide, and we're eager to do the same for you. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And our goal is to help you improve your lives and the lives of those around you, one difficult conversation at a time. Don't let another challenging conversation leave you second guessing. Click the link in the description to discover how we can help you find confidence in conflict, negotiate better deals, and have stronger relationships. Because in the world of business, every conversation counts. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Michael, welcome back, my friend.

Hey, so kind of you to have me back. This is one of the podcasts I've been most excited about because this new book is all about difficult conversations. And you are the master of difficult conversations. So I'm like, I'm actually hoping to learn more from you than you might learn from me.

I love that. Listen. See, listeners, my friends are very humble. I say it all the time. I appreciate that. And so for those listeners who might not know of you, can you tell them a little bit about yourself and what you do?

I think it's unbelievable that anybody listening doesn't know who I am. See, I'm not humble at all. Of course, almost nobody will know who I am. But if you do know me, you'll know me for one of the books that I've written, which is called the Coaching Habit. And the Coaching Habit came out six or seven years ago. It is the best selling book on coaching this century, which is amazing. And it's written to kind of unweird coaching. So if you're not a coach, but you're a regular person who understands the power of curiosity, which of Course you do, because you're a listener to this podcast, and that's one of the key tenants of what Kwame talks about. It's about. Here are seven good questions. And so I write books. I have a company called Box of Crayons, which does big company training. And I have another company called MBS Works, which is about helping you unlock your greatness and helping you unlock the greatness of others. That's what I'm all about.

I love it. And listeners, if you haven't read the book, it is an incredible book. Love it. But we are. As much as I would love to talk about that book, we are here to talk about a new book. Michael, can you tell us about this one?

Yeah. It's called how to Work with Almost Anyone. And the subtitle is Five Questions for Building the Best Possible Relationships. And, Kwame, there are times when you're writing a book, and I've written eight or so now, where you, like, you write a good book, and then you really sweat over the title. You're like, it's hard to find exactly the right title because you've got five to seven words to summarize a universe and speak to a problem. And often it's really tricky to get a title down. But in this case, I came up with this title, how to Work With Almost Anyone. I'm like, that is a really good title. That is a killer title. Now, I need to write a book that is good enough to match the title. But the key insight is our working relationships are such big determinants on our success and our happiness, yet most of the time, we cross our fingers and we just hope for the best. What if you took a more active role in trying to create the best possible relationships with the key people you work with? Relationships that are safe and vital and repairable. And if you're up for that challenge, how would you do that? And in the book, I say the key secret is to have a conversation about how you work together before you have a conversation about what you're working on.

Oh, this is. I'm. My hand is getting tired already from all of these notes. So many places to explore, Michael. But let's. Let's start off with mindset, too, because when you. The thing that I really love about the way that you write is that you make it so simple without it being simplistic. So after reading these books, you know exactly what it is to do. I actually know what to do now. It's. In order to put these things into action, though, we have to have the right mindset. And a lot of times people focus more on blaming other people for the failures of the relationships rather than taking responsibility for what they can do. And so let's say there's somebody who has been hurt a number of times and they just want other people to do better. What is the mentality shift they need to make in order to feel comfortable accepting ownership for what they can do?

Yeah, it's a brilliant question. We've all been dented and bruised and a little broken by past working relationships. It's impossible not to have been, because every working relationship, the good, the bad and the ugly, they all go off the rails at some stage. So we've all collected a bit of collateral damage as part of the process. And one of the ways you might choose to react to that is to retreat or. Or become a bit, let's call it, victimy, and kind of blame the others. One of the most fundamental call to action that this book offers is be the person who says, I'm going to try and build the best possible relationships with the people with whom I work. Now, to be clear, it's not the best relationship. Because there are some people you're working with where you're like, this is never going to be good. I'm just trying to make it less bad. I'm trying to move it from bad to good enough. And there's some people you work with where you're like, this is never going to be magical, but it could be more magical. So I'm going to move it from average, you know, six out of ten to seven and a half out of ten. And there are some relationships where you're like, this is magical. I love this person. I love this experience that we have. And with that, you're like, how do we keep this going longer and deeper and kind of in a way that's even more nourishing. But somebody has to say, I'm going to take responsibility for the quality of the working relationships in my life. And I hope, dear listener, it's you. Because the quality of your working relationships has such a big impact on success and happiness. And just to help you feel this in your body, not just hear it from me, think back for a moment around one of the great working relationships you've had, one of the ones that really lit you up, in fact. Kwame, let me do this with you, if I may. When you think back on a relationship where you're like, ah, that was good. Somehow they brought out the best in me and I brought out the best in them. And we kind of. We just. We sung in harmony. What would you say was the impact on you, on who you were and the work that you did?

Oh, man. I think about those types of friendships and they just make every part of the day better. I feel better after I talk to them. I look forward to talking to them, which makes me feel better even before I talk to them. And I feel like there is mutual benefit. We help each other, and it's just really rewarding.

Lovely. And if you flip that and you think about one of the working relationships where it's been a struggle, where it's been hard, where it's been diminishing in some ways, and you think of not just the kind of the what was done and what was said and not said and done and not done, but when you think on what impact did that have on you and how you were showing up, what words would you put to that?

Oh, stress, frustration, anxiety, sometimes even getting sick. And you know what's interesting? It's almost like, and I'd be interested to hear your perspective on this, the negative relationships have an outsized impact on the quality of your life. It's like the principle in reverse.

Yeah, it's. You know, there's a reason people say people join organizations but they leave managers. It's because one relationship that has that kind of toxicity to it can be such a diminishing experience. You lose sense of what you're best at. You lose some of your confidence, you lose some of your competence, Your work drops, you have less impact. It becomes much more of a struggle. And we've all had that experience. Everybody listening can point to some relationships where they're, like, amplified and some relationships where they're diminished. What if you are the person who made things a little better? And that's the mindset, which is like, you can choose to retreat from this. And there's no doubt that if you're brave enough to say, let's start trying to have a conversation about how we work together, there will be times where it won't work or you'll feel frustrated or angry about that, but the upside for most of your working relationships is going to be tremendous.

I agree 100%. And I love that we broke it down from that emotional feel type of component too, because when we have a. In the business world, we always want to be objective and be data driven and all those types of things. But emotions can be hard to quantify. But we can always look back on those relationships that were good and we can look back on Those relationships that were bad, and we. We remember very clearly how we feel in both. And when we start to take a little bit more responsibility of the outcomes and quality of our relationship, it puts us in a position to have more of those good ones. So I really appreciate us starting there. So I appreciate that, Michael.

Yeah. I mean, when you think about our working lives, the surface is dominated by strategy and project and tactics and to do lists and meetings and kind of all the mechanics of getting stuff done. But the truth is, and this will land for people. I know. Things get done through people. Things get done through your working relationships. So don't leave it to chance. See if you can build the best possible relationships with the key people, because you'll be happier and you'll get more of the stuff that matters done. It is a big. And they will be happier, and they will get more of the stuff done. It's like everybody wins around this. If somebody's brave enough to start this conversation.

Absolutely. And let's talk about this conversation, too, because you brought up a point. Talking about the first conversation we have to have is how are we going to work together? And I think that's really powerful. Can you go back to that?

Yeah. When we start working with somebody, or even if you're in the middle of the flow of working with somebody, the conversation that dominates is what needs to be done. Even if you think about the Coaching Habit book, where I'm talking about the seven good questions, you know, the first question is. One of the first questions is, what's the real challenge here for you? It's a really good question, and it's about the work. It's like, what do we. Let's get clear on the. What needs to be solved or sorted? And so the work is always loud and urgent and shiny and compelling and feels like that's where you should put your attention. But I'm saying, kwame, take a beat. And I'm like, okay, Kwame, we've got some cool stuff that we need to do, or we've got some hard stuff that we need to do. But before we get into it, you and me, let's have a conversation about how we can work best together. How do I bring out your best, and how do I avoid bringing out your worst? And let me tell you, the same for me. And that's the foundation of the Keystone conversation, as I've called it in the book, Keystone, because both for the architectural metaphor, you know, that stone that brings two sides of an arch together and makes it more stable and stronger and firmer, but also keystone. Because in the world of ecology, a keystone species is the species that really determines the health of the ecosystem. In the 1980s, they introduced wolves back into Yellowstone National Park. The wolves started eating the elk. The elk meant there were less trees being eaten. More trees meant more birds. More birds meant more fish. The river changed shape. The whole ecosystem became healthier because of the keystone species, the gray wolves. And that's what we're doing here. We're having a conversation that will affect the whole ecosystem of your working relationships.

It's brilliant. It makes so much sense. And I think one of the things that is encouraging about this is that it's so doable. This is something that we all can do. And when we're actually in these conversations, conversation typically look like hello, my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question. Have you ever wondered how to elevate your team's negotiation game and how you can help the folks on your team have better, difficult conversations? At the American Negotiation Institute, we offer transformative keynotes and workshops tailored to empower professionals with top tier negotiation and conflict resolution skills. Whether it's a keynote for your next event or hands on training for your team, we've got you covered. Don't just negotiate. Master the art with the American Negotiation Institute. Click the link in the description to find out more. Elevate, negotiate, and succeed.

Well, it starts off with you being brave enough to say, let's have this conversation. And sometimes I can have be in the moment. Often, for instance, when I'm starting work with a new vendor, when we're on our first phone call together, I'll say, look, before we get into the brief and the project and what needs to be done, what makes for a really good client? And let me tell you what makes for a really good vendor for me. And we just start that conversation right away. If you're working with somebody, you might say, hey, Kwame, I want to have a chat with you. Here are the questions that I'm thinking about trying to answer. Maybe I'm going to do a little bit of prep for that. Maybe you'll do some prep as well. And then let's get together and actually talk about how we want to work well together. And then when you get in there, I think the best question to start with is the amplify question, which is what's your best? So it's not what, what, what are you good at? Because that's kind of interesting. But it can be quite tactical and it's not what are your strengths? Because that's often a bit woo woo and highfalutin. It's what's your best? Which means when do you shine and when do you flow? Like, what does it look like when you're in that sweet spot where you're like, this is me. This is me at my best. This is me using my talents. This is me being alive to the work. This is me being excited. This is me making my great contribution. This is me at my best. And I like this idea of when do you shine? When do you flow? Because flow is that internal state where, you know, time speeds up and slows down and you're kind of connected to something bigger than you. Shining is what people see in you, which is like, they're in that place, their eyes are lit up, they're going for it. They're just. You could just tell they're in their sweet spot.

It's such a brilliant question because again, you're absolutely right. A lot of times we can be very tactical with the questions that we ask. What are your strengths? What are your weaknesses? We have these kind of wrote questions that we go back to. But when you talk about where do you shine and what's you like, what gets you into the. Where do you flow? Those type of questions. Yeah, I think really what we're doing is we're kind of. We're like following the energy. Because even when you were giving that example, you, you, I heard your voice, you lit up when you were giving that answer. Because it's different, right?

So start there. Start in a place which is like, what's good? And how do we think about knowing that and amplifying that. I mean, let me ask you, Kwame, let me put you on the spot. If I was to ask you, you knowing that your business is the podcast, but it's also about giving keynote speeches and giving training in organizations. Where are you at? What's your best? When do you shine? When do you flow? If I was going to hire you, tell me what I need to know about you so I can make the most of this man in front of me.

I love this. It's definitely the podcast. I think the listeners, I hear it all the time. They're like, I can hear you smiling even when. I love the podc. I love speaking in front of people. And I'm really enjoying creating a vision for the organization and seeing my team just move in alignment in that way. It's really those three things tell me.

I'm going to be nosy when you say creating a vision for the organization, what's the sort of vision that keeps you in this place of being in your best?

It is just continuous amplification of the impact. So growing the podcast as big as possible, charting new territory, and like YouTube with LinkedIn deals and different distribution deals that we have in place, just trying to find new ways to get the message out there.

Nice. Yeah, that's so helpful because now if I'm talking to Kwame, I'm like, he's about amplifying his essential message. And what would you say was your essential message? What's the key thing that you want people to know?

Yes, we believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. So we want to make the world a better place one difficult conversation at a time.

I love that. So it is really helpful for me to hear that from Kwame because I'm like, I get the message. And I could be going down the path of, hey, Kwame, I've got a conversation about difficult conversations, like it's this or coaching, and there's a way I could be going. I think he wants to talk about that. But no, he knows his message. He knows the essence. He wants to go, if you can put me in a place of amplification, that's when I'm going to be lighting up. That's when I'm going to feeling at my best. That's a really helpful nuance for me to understand if I was going to be working with Kwame.

So smart, Michael. And so now I'm thinking about this in terms of layers, too, because then strategically, what we can do is when we're going through this project, it's like, I want to see you shine, and so I know this will light you up. So we're actually going to get better performance and better energy and much better attitude because we're positioning people to succeed by putting them where they want to be.

The opening card that's played is, let's both see if we can succeed as much as possible. And that's a pretty good place to start. I'm sure that part of what you speak to and teach around, around difficult conversations is it can go off the rails fast. If it starts in a place of, this is the issue. This is why you're up, whatever. But if you go, look, this is a bit awkward, this conversation. You may not have had a conversation like this before, but tell me, tell me about you at your best. It's just a way that that's almost always going to shift the energy towards into the right place.

Absolutely. And when you tell me what you think about this layer, too, because if you think about it through the old classical conditioning model, Right. So Pavlov and his dogs for. What we're ending up doing is we are associating ourselves with higher levels of positivity and flow with the other person. So I feel like it's almost impossible for some of that positivity to be. To not be rubbed off on you, so they're going to look at you even more favorably because you are creating opportunities for them to flow.

I think so. You know, often in my teaching around communication, and I'm sure you teach this as well, talking about priming, because how do you keep signaling almost at an unconscious level about the positiveness that's happening? So if you're doing that in person, one of the ways you do that is you keep nodding your head when they're talking. You're nodding your head and they're like, I don't even know why I'm nodding my head. But apparently something good is going on. And I always say to people when I'm teaching, I'll go, all right, I've got something really cool for you. I think you're really going to like this. And I'll nod my head. And they all nod their head going, all right, I don't even know what's coming, but I'm feeling good about it. And so this constant sense of give the relationship every chance to thrive, give the conversation every chance to take root and thrive by framing it and feeding it the positive as much as possible. Really powerful, doesn't mean it's touchy feely necessarily. Doesn't mean you don't get to talk about the hard stuff. But amplifying the good is a really strong place to start in my book.

That's great. And again, to your point, we make these conversations more difficult than they need to be by focusing exclusively on the problem. But it sounds like here what we're doing is we're focusing primarily on the relationship, and then we flow into actually addressing the issue.

There's a shared third point challenge, which says, how do we work better together? So how do you work better with me or how do I work better with you? It's like, how do we work better together? So it is our problem to solve together. Kwame, can you. I'd like you to teach me something. What have you learned about helping people be brave, about taking the first step in a difficult conversation?

I think, first of all, I realized I think last year for the first time that for a lot of people, this is the hardest part of the conversation.

Right.

It's like jumping into a cold pool. And that fear keeps them from even starting the conversation at all. Right. And so for me, one of the simplest things that we can do is give them a really easy framework to enter the conversation where they can get in in like 10 seconds. So situation, impact, invitation. So describe the situation, keeping your judgment and opinion out of there, talk about the impact it's having on you, and then invite them in a positive collaborative type of. I'd like to work with you through this.

Yeah, that's fantastic. I agree. I think that's one of the reasons the coaching habit has its success is it gave people a script that they could begin with. So the first question in the coaching habit is, what's on your mind? And I'm like, you can just stop there. That can just be the first thing you say. It's like, oh, okay, great, we're having a one to one what's on your mind? And you are already in three seconds into a coaching conversation. You don't have to build it up, you don't have to worry about it. You don't have to announce that this is a coaching conversation. You're giving people a language that just makes it easy to take the first step. Because once you've taken the first step, you have momentum.

Absolutely. And again, it shows the power of curiosity. You're just, you're asking a simple open ended question and giving them the space to respond.

Yeah, exactly.

This is great. And I know you have these characteristics of the best possible relationship.

Yeah.

Safe, vital, repairable. Can you tell us about that too?

Yeah, I'm glad you, you're asking me about that. You know, as I realized that this was the next book for me to write, I'm like, okay, so if I'm trying to build out the best possible relationship, I have to define that, I have to come up with some characteristics around that. And best possible relationship gives me that freedom to say, look, between A and B, there's some sort of potential. How do we fulfill that potential? As much as possible? It's a bad relationship, a hard relationship. How do you make it less hard and good enough? If it's a brilliant relationship, how do you expand that even more? So there's that situational alignment which is like best possible relationship for this person and that person, and then safe, vital and repairable. Amy Edmondson, professor at Harvard Business School, has really made clear and made popular this Idea of psychological safety. Ten years ago, I wouldn't have even crossed my mind what that was. Now that's a common conversation in organizations which is like, how do we make this psychologically safe for people? Google has backed this up with their research Project Oxygen and Project Aristotle about teams and managers that are most effective. Psychological safety just keeps being a big, big part of what that is. But that's not enough for the best possible relationship. It needs to be more than just psychologically safe. As fundamental as that is that ability to say, I can say what I need to say and be who I need to be without fear of retribution. Vitality is this idea that this relationship should have some aliveness to it. It should be about stepping out to the edge of who we are and what we know and what's possible. Some sense of adventure maybe, some sense of risk and some sense of danger perhaps. And you can see that safety and vitality have a tension between them. There's a dance between them. You can imagine a relationship that is so safe that it's lost its vitality. It's smothered a little bit. You can imagine a relationship that is full of adventure and daring do. But there's no safety. So if anything breaks, and it will, all kind of trust is lost. And that's why the repairable is the third thing, which is in researching this and researching the works of people like Esther Perel and Terry Real and Dan Siegel and John Gottman, these kind of great writers on relationships, it's clear that good relationships have the ability to be actively repaired. And most of us are kind of lousy at that. Most of us aren't that good at going, let me fix the thing that was broken, let me sweep up what I spilled. And this willingness to say, I know this relationship will go off the rails at some stage, It'll get dented, it'll get cracked. And whilst it is true that relationships are basically often to an extent, self healing, meaning they'll get back to being okay because of necessity and time. And we kind of brushed over and moved on. They never quite get back to the full health that they were. And kind of paradoxically, really, when a relationship gets damaged and, well, repaired, it actually deepens the trust and the success and the commitment to that working relationship. It's like in retail, it's one of those weird things that if you're a brand and you make a mistake and you do a really good job at fixing it, people become more loyal to the brand than if you never made a mistake at all, really. If you're in retail, you should be like, we need to deliberately screw up something in the first two weeks of this working relationship so we can then blow their minds with how well we fix it, because that will actually drive brand loyalty. And so, too, with working relationships, if we got that willingness and courage and capacity to go, hey, I noticed this. Let's see if we can fix this. That can actually strengthen the relationship.

This is so good. And I know you could see I was not making eye contact for the last three minutes, just taking all of these notes.

Thank you, Roman.

And I love the fact that you started off with safety, because that's been almost. It's almost become like a buzzword, psychological safety. But I think it's really important. It's a really vital concept. And then what you've done is you've taken it to the next level to not just make a relationship that's kind of tolerable, but also you've taken it to the next level. How can we maximize this? And I think kind of going back to what we're talking about from this whole conversation, you keep on saying how to have the best possible relationship while recognizing that there's no such thing as the perfect relations. And I think recognizing that our goal is to maximize the relationship makes it more doable. And then by adding vitality to this, we recognize that there has to be some level of risk. We have to spice things up, and that's how things become better.

I want to be challenged by you, although we get to figure out between us how much safety is safety and how much vitality is vitality, because it is a contract between us to go, look, when I'm working with Joanna down the hall, we have a working relationship where she can push me and challenge me and provoke me and scare the knickers off me. That's how I work with her, because we've got other things and other histories that allow us to have that. And if I'm negotiating with you, I'm like, I don't know you as well, and I'm not quite sure what being provoked looks like. So we're going to negotiate something different between us.

Wow. Oh, it's so this is great, because, again, it shows that we treat everybody with respect, but we don't treat everybody the exact same way, because everybody's different. And I love the fact that we're essentially negotiating the relationship by discussing what this should look like.

So as somebody who has deep expertise in negotiation, what wisdom about negotiation would you layer onto what's been said Already in this conversation. Oh.

Let'S see here, onto what we've already discussed. I think really what it comes down to is this. And this is not a traditional negotiation tactic or strategy. But as I talk to more experts in the industry, I'm realizing that this is something that's unspoken, but I think we need to talk about it a lot more. But it's the persuasive value of true humility. Because really, what we're doing here is we're recognizing, hey, I cannot make this relationship great by myself. I need you. And I'm going to be very clear about the fact that I need you and I need your help to become a better partner for you. And I think a lot of people are too afraid to open up and be humble and be vulnerable in that way. And so we operate based on hope, and hope doesn't get us very far in a lot of these cases.

I'm just going to say that phrase, the persuasive value of true humility. I mean, you need to write an article called the Persuasive Value of True Humility, or a book or something, because that is a power phrase. I love that.

Thank you. I appreciate it. Listen, this is. What is it? Socrates said he was the midwife of great ideas. And so I did not come up with that idea without your great question, which is perfectly on brand for you, Michael.

Thank you, sir.

This is great. Well, listen, I know we're coming up on time here, but I went fast.

Thanks for letting me get excited about it. And we've only just touched some of the key concepts of the book, but I appreciate you allowing me to talk to you and your audience about it.

Oh, my pleasure. This was a blast. And again, remind the audience about the book and how they can get in touch with you and work with you, too. Sure.

So the book is called how to Work with Almost Anyone. Five Questions for Building the Best Possible Relationships. There's a website with all sorts of bonuses and downloads at Best Possible Relationship. If you want more of me in general, MBS Works is my website.

So good. Michael, thank you again. This was. This was really, really good.

Thank you, sir. It's a pleasure.

Congratulations. You've just joined an elite club by listening to a full episode. You're now officially on the Negotiate Anything team. So welcome aboard. What most team members do is they subscribe to the podcast because they that allows them to automatically get the latest episodes of the show. The best things in life lie on the other side of difficult conversations. Keep learning, keep practicing, and keep Getting better. Your relationships will improve, your career will soar, and you'll have the confidence you need to get the most out of these crucial conversations. Again, thank you for joining the team. We're excited to have you, and I will see you in the next episode. I'll catch you later. Hey, it's been a while. How have you been?

I've been. I've been good. Ups and downs, but mostly trending up and to the right.

I love that. That's what matters most, right?

How you doing?

Things are good, man. Things are good. It's been same. We have, actually, since last time we spoke. I've had my second son, so thank you. Appreciate it. It's. It's nice. You know, it's. It's never easy, but it's lots of fun. So. Family's doing well, though. Business is going well, so can't complain.

I. You know, I have. I keep seeing your name popping up in assorted places. So, you know, I don't know what your experience is, but my experience is it's hard to kind of get noticed by people. And I just going, I'm not sure if this is your lived experience, but it feels like you are, you know, constantly moving closer and closer to the spotlight or into the center of the spotlight, whatever the metaphor might be.

Thank you. That means. That means a lot. That means a lot coming from you, so I really appreciate that. Yeah, I'm realizing that I just. The. I'm fortunate in that the business that I've created just gels perfectly with what I want to do. Like, the question that got me here was I said, what would I do if everything in the world was free? And I said, oh, yeah, I'd start a podcast. I'd help people with difficult conversations. I said, okay, well, that's the one. We'll figure it out.

How do you measure success now for your business? I mean, what are you dreaming of?

Oh, man. Michael, the timing of this is perfect because I realized that I've kind of marinated a lot in the business culture of America, and I had to take some time to refocus and ask, like, what does Kwame want to do? What do I really want to do, do? And may being Mental Health Awareness Month really helped me to refocus. And I said, a lot of times, the grind of business doesn't feel good to me. And I'm now kind of accepting the fact that I need to slow down a little bit more, spend more time with family, and inject more, like, white space into my calendar just so I can exist. Yeah. So I think the imprecision of that description is what scared me for a long time. I'm just more willing to sit in that and accept it.

What's the. What's the main service you offer and get paid for?

Yeah, I would say it's three buckets. We have the keynote speeches, we have the. The podcast and. Yeah, it's really. Oh, and the licensing deals we have, so. With LinkedIn, learning and audible and things like that. So we have some of those. Yeah. Yeah. What about you? Because I know you have the books and you have the coaching practice too. Right.

So I have Box of Crayons, which is a training company that sells to enterprise big companies. And that's the company I started, kind of, I guess ran, although that's kind of overstating what I was actually doing. I was like just stumbling along with it for 20 years. About three years ago, I stopped being the CEO of that and gave that to somebody else to run. So I still own that, but she now runs the company. And thank God, because I'm like, I'm turns out, not cut from the CEO cloth at all. And she is. And then for the new business, MBS Works, it's more about helping individuals unlock their greatness and unlock the greatness of others. So that's more of a B2C model. Box of crayons is B2B. MBS Works is B2C. And with that, I mean, perhaps in a similar way to you, I'm trying to build stuff that allows white space for me so I can keep trying to write books and do that creative work that I'm best at. So trying to build a really small team that has outsized impact in terms of the systems and the structures that we're trying to set up.

This is great. So I think. Let me rephrase my answer to my question, to your earlier question. My goal is to be like you. That's exactly what I want to do. That's great.

Just going to send up red flares going, do not. If you actually saw what was going on here, you'd be like, you'd be backing away. If it's ever helpful for us to have a conversation and kind of more detail around some of that stuff and what I've learned, I mean, I honestly, I've got scars. I've made a lot of mistakes. Something that I've done may be helpful. If that's ever. If I ever feels helpful, please.

No, absolutely. I will definitely take you up.

There's an open invitation to Reach out when the time is right for you.

Thank you, man. That means a lot. That means a lot. Because I would love that. And I think that's. And you've probably experienced this too. Entrepreneurship can be kind of a lonely journey sometimes, and especially when you're trying to do something that's a little bit different. So hearing from your experience would be really, really helpful.

Yeah, I'm really. Anytime. Anytime you're up for it, I'm up for a chat. And I'm happy to tell you, kind of open the. I'm literally wearing a common. It's not. Actually. I'm literally. I'm almost wearing a kimono. So I will literally open the kimono for you and tell you whatever you're interested in.

I appreciate it. That's great, man. That means a lot. How's the. How's the tour been going? Because I know you're. Well, the book.

The book arrived yesterday, so, you know, it's exciting to get a print copy of the book and go. I can feel it and I can stroke it now. It doesn't launch for another month. And so the kind of a prelude to a book launch is a vast amount of running around asking for help and not knowing if anything's actually working. There's no actual impact until the gates open on June 27th. So, yeah, it's going, you know, it's going fine. I've got. I've had some really lovely podcast conversations and some really, hopefully, podcast conversations that are influential. I've got a mailing list that seems to be not unexcited by the book. So fingers crossed. But I'm really trying to remember that with a. With a launch, as with anything, you commit to the process and the outcome is whatever the outcome is. So I'm like, just hoping to celebrate the launch. Book launches where I'm like, I never stopped for a moment to go, well done, Michael, for getting a book out into the world. I was like, oh, what's the next interview? Or what's the next email? And so I'm excited to have scheduled a book launch party in Toronto. When I get to.

Oh, that's great.

Friends and family and go, hey, have a drink. Isn't this good? I made it.

Yes. Smart. I tell you, sometimes when you're. You can. Your ambition can almost be. It's. It's a blessing and a curse because you have that on to the next one mentality. So injecting those celebrations in it, that's important.

Yeah, it's like a lesson that I've Occasionally remember and often forget. So I'm like trying to do a better job at that. Michael.

That's good. That is good. Well, great. Well, yeah, man, this is, this is awesome. I, of course, anytime you want to come on the pod, you got that open invite and with the, with the book promotion, let me know if it'll be helpful, but I can write up something on Forbes as well. I'd love that exposure.

Yeah, yeah, that'd be fantastic. One of the things that I would love to do is send you a print copy of this.

Yeah.

So if either in the chat here or on email, drop me your postal address and I'll get that sent to. We'll get a copy out to you.

Cool.

If you've emailed me that, I'll stop trying to copy and paste it from the chat, which never works.

Yeah, I'll have my team email.

Thank you.

The other thing is, when it comes to the launch date of this episode, would it be more helpful if we drop it on launch day or do you want to do more of a pre order attack?

I reckon in a perfect world, like the week before. So sometime the week of 19 June would be particularly sweet. But you know, in the big scheme of things, launch week, the week before, any time, actually. Because, you know, it's like I keep remembering, you know, the launch is just the launch and it's about trying to play the longer game with these books. So anytime the podcast comes out, it'll be a great, a great boon to me.

Perfect. Cool. I'll talk to the team. We'll get it done. Make sure it's, it's in that range for sure.

That's sweet. Thank you, sir.

Yeah, man. Definitely. Well, cool. Well, you know the drill. You've been in. What is it? Do you know if it's thousands yet? Can you say thousands of interviews yet?

Well, if you, if you combine the interviews that I've run on my podcasts over the years, which is like north of 600, I'm like, it's definitely 1,000 podcast conversations that I've been in over time. So yeah, I've got some water under the bridge.

I love it. Well, great. Well, yeah, this is awesome. We're recording. We'll just flow into it. I'll introduce you. We'll flow. Okay, perfect.