How Women Can Use Salary Negotiation to Address the Wage Gap with Jacqueline Twillie

Hello, my friends, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. This show is produced by the American Negotiation Institute, and with over 5 million downloads and listeners in over 180 countries, listeners just like you have made this the number one negotiation podcast in the world. Hi, my name is Kwame Christian, and I am the founder and CEO of the American Negotiation Institute. Here at AI, we believe that the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And we are passionate about providing you with the best content that will help you to make your difficult conversations easier, both at work and at home. Lastly, I want to remind you that we offer consulting and conduct trainings both virtually and in person all around the world. Our focus is in three main areas. First, negotiation and conflict resolution. Second, leadership. And lastly, diversity, equity, and inclusion. Check the link in the description below to learn more about how we could work with you and your team. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview.

So, thanks for joining us today.

Thank you. I'm happy to be a guest. Thank you for inviting me.

My pleasure. So how about you get us started by telling us a little bit about what you do?

So, as you know, my name is Jacqueline Swilley, and I teach women how to negotiate. I'm on a mission to eliminate the gender wage gap. And so what I do is I work with women in three ways. In the corporate setting, I work with employee resource groups or women's initiatives, and I teach women how to negotiate on the university level, I go in right before students graduate, and universities hire me to teach their students how to negotiate. And then I work with women one on one when they are engaged in the job search process, are about to receive a job offer, I coach them through negotiating a salary.

Very cool. So how did you get into this?

So a few years ago, I was introduced to an organization called Labo League Levo, and they have a really big campaign on Equal Payday, and it teaches women how to negotiate, and they do workshops all over the country. So I attended one in Atlanta, and I was intrigued. First of all, I said, is this real? Is it really this bad? So I started doing research, and I realized that, yes, it was bad, and it works for women of color. And. And then I got pissed off and I decided to do something about it. So that's when I really started immersing myself in negotiation strategy and techniques and the science of negotiation. And I started teaching people and hosting workshops, and from there, it grew into the business.

That's phenomenal. And so for the listeners out there, that aren't familiar with the wage gap. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

Yeah. So right now, women on average make around 79 cents on a dollar, compared to non Hispanic white male women of color actually make significantly less. So if we go state by state, the numbers can be alarming. But in general, white women have to work until March to make what a white man earned in the previous year. African American women have to work until August, Latino women, September, and the Native American women, November. So when you look at the wage gap, you're looking at women working almost a full year for free to earn what a man made in that same time frame. It's really more complex than just saying, oh, they make less. Because when you look at traditional job roles and social roles that the women carry, women have to take off work to give birth to a kid, whereas a man doesn't. And so women are penalized for leaving the workforce for a certain amount of time, and they're not paid for that time. So when they reenter the workforce, there is a gap in their work history. So when women and men start off right out of college, they're typically earning close to the same amount. But as they get older, as women get older, they earn less. On the other side of that spectrum, women are typically the caregivers for families. So when parents are ailing and things like that, it's typically the woman who opts out of the workforce. And so there again, we see another component of the wage gap, because women are not engaged in the workforce because they're caring for families, which is essential work. So it's a really, really complex issue. But that's just an overview of what the wage gap is.

Wow. And that's for people who are coming in and doing the same job. So the women are paid less for the exact same work than similar situation. Wow. That's crazy, right?

There's been some really exciting work in California and Massachusetts. The city of Boston has been blazing trails in 2016 and California in 2015 about the wage gap. Most recently, one of the things that the city of Boston is doing in the state of Massachusetts has signed off on is eliminating the requirement to disclose your previous salary history. So when you apply for a job, you don't have to say what you made in the previous role, because think about it. If men and women are earning different rates for the same amount of work, and then you go to another job, even if you want to earn the same wages, but you made $8,000 less than a guy who did the same work, you're starting off behind the curveball. So like I said, it's a really complex issue. But yes, it's definitely for the same work. But then if we dive all the way into the wage gap, then we look at different industries and different segments and we'll see that some women are socialized to go into lower wage jobs. And one of the examples I like to give is if you see a woman as a housekeeper and a man as a janitor, those are very similar types of work. But janitors get paid more than me.

Wow. Never thought of it that way.

It gets really, really crazy. But yeah. And that's not just for service workers. It's for professional workers as well. It goes across the board.

Right. And what's interesting about this wage gap is that I was reading this book called Women Don't Ask, a phenomenal book on women in negotiation and the gender dynamics in negotiation. They mentioned that the wage gap, a significant portion of the wage gap, could be eliminated simply by improving your negotiation skills.

Absolutely.

So before we make that transition to talk about the specific tactics and strategies that we can use to improve our performance in these conversations, I'd like to take a quick moment to remind our listeners to download the free salary negotiation guide from the website. So if you go to AmericanNegotiationInstitute.com salary, again, that's AmericanNegotiationInstitute.com Salary, you can get a free salary negotiation guide that will help you prepare for your next negotiation at work. So with that, what are some things that women can do in these types of negotiations to help improve their outcomes?

The first thing is just ask for it a lot of times and I'll use myself as an example. I remember my first professional job with benefits where I didn't have to be on my parents insurance anymore. I knew that I could do the job. I knew that I could like kill it. I was very confident in my ability. But when I got the call for the job offer, I remember I was sitting in my Jeep Liberty in front of my apartment complex and I got the call. I recognized the number because I had been, you know, multiple interviews. And he says, hey, Jacqueline, we want to offer you the job. And I started screaming, oh my God. Not out loud, but to myself, oh my God, thank you so much for picking me and giving me a job. And so I paused, which is a negotiation tactic, but not because it was a tactic, just because, you know, I was having that internal screaming moment. And then he said, are you there? And I said, yeah, I'll take it. And boom, just like that, all of my negotiation power was gone. I just accepted the job just because I was so happy to have the job. Now I find that that's the case with a lot of the women that I work with. We're so grateful for the opportunity that we just give up the power to negotiate. So we don't even engage in the conversation. And when I talk to people, women all over the country, and I tell them it's very rare, that the first offer is the best offer, they are blown away. And so I think it's partly educating women that they can negotiate and that they should be negotiating when they receive an offer.

That's a great point. But I think it can be tough for people in that situation when it feels like, wow, I just won the sweepstakes, you know, like, they picked me. What should they say in that situation? Because you paused, which is typically good. But then what comes on the other side of the pause? If you were to go back in time and do that the right way.

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It starts with the internal self talk, right? Because I'm sure I'm not the only one who talks to myself and has that. That moment of, oh my God, yes, thank you, I'm so happy to have this job. So it starts with going through the entire process, the interview process, knowing this is what the market rate is. These are the skills that I have to offer. This is what makes me unique, and this is why I'm an asset to this company. And when you get to the point where they say, this is how much we're going to offer you, then the first thing you should do is take a second to pause if you need to have that moment. What I advise women to do is change your self talk instead of saying, oh my God, I'm so lucky I have a job and change that into, yes, okay, I got this. I'm going to go in, I'm going to kill it. I'm going to do a great job, I'm going to be passionate about my work, I'm going to exceed expectations. And just that part of the mental shift helps you to be more confident on the other end. So confidence, we can tell over the phone and face to face if a person has it or not. So if you come back to that side of the conversation with the person who is extending the offer to you and you say, you know, I'm really excited, I know that I can come in and hit the ground running, and within nine months or eight months, whatever is realistic for your industry, you know, I can be up to speed in contributing at full pace. Let's talk a little bit more about the salary and the total package. And I don't want people to get just hung up on the salary part because it is a total package that makes the difference, right?

Absolutely.

So with that, when you go back into that conversation and you say something like that versus yes, I'll take it, and yes, I'll take it is more like, I'm lucky, yes, whatever. But when you tell them, okay, let's talk more about the salary and the total package, you're letting them know, yes, you're interested. You just reaffirmed to them that you're excited, you're going to hit the ground running, you're going to contribute to the team. And now you open the door for them to say, okay. And then at that point, that's when I tell people to really have a five second pause. Five seconds on the phone seems like forever pause. At that point, sometimes the recruiter or the hiring manager, they're going to want to feel that awkward gap. So they're going to jump in and say, okay, well, we can offer you boom. Because they already know that they have wiggle room on the offer. Right. So just you bringing that to their attention is going to open that part of the conversation. And for women, they're sometimes hesitant to engage in the negotiation process because it's like, oh, I don't know what to say and I don't want to seem too pushy and ungrateful, but the way I just phrased it, you're not sounding pushy and you're definitely not sounding ungrateful. You're just having a conversation.

Absolutely. And I'm loving this advice because this is textbook and this is really great stuff. And I want to pull out two things that you said that were really great. Of the multiple things that you said, that were really great. But I want to dive deeper into two in particular. The first one is the pause, because I really think that's an underutilized technique in negotiation. I mean, the pause has multiple functions. First, it gives you time to think, and second, it gives the other side time to think. Because even though from the outside perspective, it might seem as though nothing's happening, the reality is that there's a lot of action happening in that moment. They're thinking about a lot of stuff. And like you said, if you give them that time to pause, they might jump in and negotiate against themselves and give you more without you having to take a step forward. Forward. And so giving yourself time to think and pausing is a very strong strategic move, and it's a show of confidence. The next thing is the fact that once you receive that offer, you have to understand that the dynamics of the negotiation changes. The power dynamics shift in your favor, because the fact that they've extended that offer to you means that they haven't extended that offer to somebody else. And so now they've greatly limited their options to one. But you still have all of your options on the table. And so once that shifted, the power dynamic occurs. That's when you use that opportunity to negotiate for more of what you want.

Yep, absolutely. And, you know, that shift in power dynamic is really important for people to recognize, especially women, when it comes to negotiating. Recognizing that you do have power in the negotiation is a huge vote of confidence, not only in the negotiation process, but as you start that job, if you're going in feeling like you're Beyonce and you're on top of the world, you're really going to go in there slaying, doing your best type of work. It's that momentum that you get throughout the negotiation process that is really important as you start a new job and you have deliverables to meet.

Right. So what is the next step? So now we've gotten past the pause portion of the conversation where we wait, and then we say, we're going to need some time to think. What should be the next step? Should they call the recruiter back? Should they set up a meeting? Should they email? If you were talking a client through this process, what would be next?

So what would be next is asking for clarification on the role. Oftentimes, what I find is that the job description that's posted online that you apply to is very different from what you're going to be doing. And the way that you Realize that is asking very insightful questions throughout the interview process. Nine times out of ten, throughout the interview process, you're going to learn more duties and responsibilities that were not listed on the job description, which means the market value for that position may change and you might find that the title is inappropriate for the work that you'll be doing. So during that process, where you're thinking, before you go too far into the conversation, you definitely want to go back and check the market rate. And a couple of tools that I tell people to use to check the market rate is salary.com, payscale.com, linkedIn has a new tool called LinkedIn Salary. But you definitely want to make sure at that point that you understand the market rate for the position that you will be accepting. And so if you need to, you can go back and say, you know, based on our discussion throughout the interview process, I'll be tasked with doing X, Y and Z. That's more in line with this title. And so the salary that matches that title in this city is more along the lines of $88,500. So at that point, you're letting them know that you've done your research. The role that you interviewed me for, I definitely want it. You want me because I have an offer, but let's make sure we're being paid here. And again, it's just a conversation, it's not a battle. And that's what you do before you accept the offer. Once you get clarity. If everything was everything and the role is exactly how it was described on the job description that you applied for, even if the salary is on target, it's exactly what you want. You want to take some time to think it over. This is a good time to engage industry experts, a mentor, someone you trust in the industry. They don't have to work directly in that company. But that's when you want to get on the phone and say, hey, I've been extended this offer, I'm going to accept it. What do you think? Because sometimes if someone has more in depth knowledge of that industry, they can give you a heads up like, oh, you know what? I think they might be bought out by this company. So make sure that you ask for something special in your signing package that's going to protect you in case the company is bought out, if the rumors are true. So don't just blindly accept it if everything is everything. And then on top of that, you want to make sure that you're asking the person who extended the offer to you when Will you receive the offer in writing? And this is huge. This is probably where I see most skilled professionals make a mistake. They don't ask for the offer in writing, and they just take the person's word for it over the phone. Because when that person leaves the company for some unforeseen reason or they just simply forget. And whatever you agree to over the phone isn't in writing. The company does not have to honor that because it never existed. It's not written anywhere. So you want to make sure that you ask, when will you receive that offer in writing? And then read it thoroughly. A lot of offer letters are copy and pasted, so you might have something that you didn't agree to or something that's not beneficial to you in that offer letter, and it's of no ill will. It's just because it was a simple administrative copy and paste error. So once you receive it in writing, review it thoroughly and then go back and give your verbal and written acceptance.

Very nice. And now what happens if we run into resistance? Not if, but when we run into resistance on the number? How do we handle that?

I've worked with women who tell me, well, they told me up front that there is no wiggle room. They're not going to negotiate. And this is before. Before they receive an offer. And I tell them, okay, we'll deal with that when that comes, because everything is negotiable. Everything. So let's just make sure they fall in love with you first and they want you for the job, and then we'll get to the point. Numbers. So when you get to the numbers and there is resistance, let's say they lowball you and it's $10,000 less than what you expected, you can be completely honest with them and say, you know what? I'm really excited about this role. I have no doubt that I can come in, contribute to the team, and get XYZ done. The specific details of why they said they want you for the role, and follow it up with a pause. I love pausing. And then say, you know what? I'm disappointed because the salary is well below market rate. And then ask them, what can we do about this? Don't say, what can you do about this? Because you want to let them know you're a team player, you're on board, you want to work for them, but that salary just doesn't work for you. So what can we do about this? And sometimes they'll have to go and get additional approval for someone else. Sometimes they'll say, you know what? There's nothing we can do. And that's when you get creative. That's when you start asking for the additional week of vacation or a week off from work to attend a professional conference where you're quasi working because you're representing the organization but you're enhancing your professional skills. Or you're asking for additional software and equipment where it's not going to be money to your salary, but it's going to be things that are going to help enhance your ability to do your job well. And also follow that up with, if they say, you know, this is the best we can do with the salary and it's lower than what you want, okay, in what scenario would I be able to earn the market rate? I like to stick with the market rate. Don't make it too personal. Make it about the value that the market pays a professional with your skill set. And sometimes, you know, you'll get some really interesting answers like, oh, when we sign this client or next quarter our budget is going to increase. And that's when you say, okay, well, once we sign this client, can we revisit my salary discussion? In most cases they'll say yes. In most cases, if they say, you know, next quarter we can do this, those are the types of things that you want to have in black and white on your offer letter once you accept it.

I love it. That's perfect. And there are a couple of things I wanted to tease out here for the new listeners. I want to let you know that one of my favorite things in negotiation are open ended questions. Jaclyn, you gave a great one. What can we do about this? And the beautiful thing about it is of course it's open ended where it requires elaboration. And then the other thing too is like you said, it's collaborative. It shows you're a team player and negotiations work best when you see the problem jointly and work on it as a team. And so that is a great way to frame the rest of the conversation. And then another thing that was really high level that you put in there was the question of what scenario would allow me to make the market rate. Because essentially what you're doing is you're pre negotiating your next raise because at that time they're going to lay out some of those things and then you say, okay, when I meet those things, I expect to have a raise. Of course you don't say it like that, but it puts you in a better position to have that raise. And like you said earlier, what you want to do is follow up in email. So you can see it in black and white, like, okay, this is the scenario where I could reach this rate. So you can always go back to it when the future conversation happens.

Absolutely, yeah.

And another thing too. When you said get creative, you said it. The timing was perfect. Because when you have reached the extent that you can on a certain issue, once you realize I may have maximized my value in salary, that's when you start to go to those fringe benefits, those things that are a little bit more intangible. So you start talking about health care, vacations, parking spots, titles, I think titles. That's an often overlooked piece of value that you can claim it's free for them to give, but it means a lot to you. So think about all of those things that you can put together in this package to maximize value for you and for the company.

Right. And I want to share a personal story here because I know this is overall positive tone, but sometimes things go completely different and you don't get anything you want. When I was in the traditional work force, I was a federal contractor for the US Government, and I was killing it. I was employee of the year for a global division with around 200 members all around the world. So to be employee of the month in that division was huge. When the government shut down a few years ago, I was one of the people who had to go to work every day. They called it, quote, unquote, essential personnel. So I was really good at my job and contributor to the team. At the time of my performance review, I felt like I have so much ammunition. There's no way that I'm not going to get more money because I'm killing it right now. You know, I'm doing a great job. So I go in, we have our performance review discussion. At the end of the conversation, I said, you know, I was hoping that we would have a discussion about the salary. And I really appreciate you recognizing that I was employee of the month and I appreciate that you recognize that I worked on these projects because those were very fulfilling work for me. And it also helped enhance my professional value. But I just love contributing to the team. So I'm having this conversation and I'm using her words and mixing them with mine and telling her how much I'm enjoying doing the work. And so I got to the point where I said, I'm really doing work along the lines of this title. So I was hoping for a title change. And along with that, the matching salary. And also when we were shut down because it snowed and I Had to work from home a couple of days. You really were impressed on how much work that I got done working from home. So I was thinking that, you know, maybe if I work from home once a week or once a pay period, I can continue to contribute at a high level and crank out a lot of work while working from home without interruptions from people walking around my cubicle and things like that. And so she was stunned that I had three things, but I packaged them all together in one conversation. Okay, so that's one thing I want to pull out of that. So I felt so confident. And she said, well, you know what, I need to think about it. So I felt like, okay, cool, I'm going to at least get two of the three things that I asked for. But guess how many I got.

I'm afraid to guess.

I got nothing. Nothing at all. No raise, no title change, no work from home days. I was bummed. I was absolutely bummed. But I didn't go back to work and start bad mouthing her. My work performance didn't decrease. I continued to do excellent work. I continued to have a positive attitude. So a few weeks later, I got a bonus, not a raise, which was great. And then several months later, I got an email saying, hey, you can work from home, but the only day that we can justify you working from home will be Fridays. So every Friday, work from home. And I'm thinking, this is a joke because I worked with a lot of pranksters. So the next Friday, I show up to work and she's like, what are you doing here? You work from home on Fridays. I grabbed my purse and my bag, my laptop, so quick, and I was out the door. I'm like, yes. The point of that story is every negotiation isn't going to go the way that you want it. Even if you say everything the quote unquote right way, Even if all of the odds, in your opinion, are stacked in your favor, sometimes the timing just isn't right. So don't be quick to be like, I'm out of here. I'm quitting, I'm getting a new job. You know, assess the situation when you're not emotional. Make a very well thought out plan on what you're going to do next. But then on top of that, sometimes, you know, just like my situation, you might get other things, but it might just be a few months later. So don't be so impatient when you don't get things that you want right out of the gate.

I love that example because it's like you said, it proves that negotiation isn't. It's not a formula. You know, you could do everything right and still end up with the result that you didn't want. It's a framework. It puts you in a better position to get what you want. Reminded me of one of the stories that my friend told. He was working at a bank and he asked for more. He was making about 80,000. And he said, hey, you know, I've been doing pretty well. I've been. As a result of the work that I've done, we've made significantly more money. I was hoping I could get a raise. He approached that conversation, had it in a professional way. They said, no, sorry, we can't find the money to give you a raise. Which is funny because they're a bank. But I digress. And so he realized that his value in the market was higher than what he was currently being paid.

And.

And so he used the walk away option. And I think that's an option that a lot of people fail to utilize. You know, sometimes it takes walking away. If you genuinely believe that you would be in a better position somewhere else, you have to be willing to walk. And he was walking genuinely with the belief that I'm just going to a new place. But once he said, I'm leaving for a new job and the salary is about 110, miraculously, they came up with an additional 40,000. And so he ended up staying, and his salary is now 150. And so a lot of times they need to see that you're willing to leave because these jobs sometimes can take you for granted. And so if you show that you don't need them in certain circumstances, it could be a good negotiation point. Again, I wouldn't bluff. If you really don't want to leave, don't threaten to leave. But if you think that your market value is better, don't be afraid to leave either.

Oh, yeah, absolutely. I agree with that 100%. And the key there is people have asked me, well, I just want to tell them this to see what happens. And I tell people with extreme caution, you want to do that with caution, because what if they really cannot? And they say, you know, it's been a pleasure for you to work here, and I wish we could. And now you don't have a job and nothing to fall back on. So you definitely want to use that with extreme caution. The other thing is, there's been some research that shows people who, once you get to the point where you were happy with your job, you didn't get the money that you wanted. And then they, like in your friend's situation, they come back, they miraculously have found the money and you stay. It says that within six to nine months, you're probably going to leave. So you definitely want to think about this. It's definitely not a knee jerk reaction. It's something that I like. What you said. You want to assess your market value and be really honest with your skill set and the market rate, making sure that you're going to earn, you know, a fair amount. But you do want to do that with extreme caution because once you get that ball rolling and your employer says, oh, they might be willing to walk, then you might receive some type of backlash in the workplace. Which is one thing that we haven't talked about yet, which I would like to touch on, is women, when they're negotiating, oftentimes will experience backlash when asking for title change or promotion or raise and even negotiating salary. It's really important that the language that you use is collaborative because that reduces the backlash that you can experience.

That's a great point. Couldn't have said it better myself. Well, I know we're coming up on time, but I wanted to get two listener questions in. They were people who are really interested in getting the chance to ask you questions. So this question is from Stacy from Charlotte, and she is a recent graduate and she's moving into a new industry. And so her question is, what is the best way to position yourself as a value adder to a new company, even though you don't necessarily have the experience suggested for the position in that situation, would negotiating for a higher salary be in vain?

That's a great question. First of all, it's not in vain. And one of the ways to position the value that you add is being self aware of the skills that you have and understanding the role that you're going into. So it's really important throughout the interview process that you're asking probing questions to find out why is this position open? Why is this a pain point for the organization? Because the more you understand why this role needs to be filled and the type of work that you're going to be doing, you can better articulate the value that you can add. And so throughout the interview process, some of the things that you might want to say is, oh, I can definitely do that. In college I had this experience and this was the result interview world. There's a technique for answering interview questions called the star technique. And it's where you talk about the situation, task, action and result. And that really comes in handy with negotiating because you're talking about a specific situation, but you're always ending it with the result. And the more you can talk about your results in the interview process, you're building your bank of value, the value that you can add to this organization. But again, you have to be really clear on their pain points, the reason why the position is open, and then being able to articulate how you can solve a problem based on a similar situation that you have been in. And so it's not in vain to go for the salary. And it also is a boat of confidence on your behalf for you to negotiate your salary early on. They're going to recognize how confident you are in your ability based on one the results that you shared from your past experiences. Even if it was a college project or an auxiliary group or sorority, fraternity or in college job, being able to articulate that well is going to be your value add.

Nice. And then our next question is from my friend Naveen here in Columbus. And he asked what do you do if you're having a conversation with a company you interview? Things go well and then you don't hear anything from them, or maybe you just are stating interest and then you don't hear anything from them. And I guess the technical term for this is being ghosted by a company. What advice do you have for job applicants who are going through that situation?

So that's a great question and very appropriate because we're coming off a of the US holiday season and so I've received so many emails and phone calls from people saying, well, I was engaged in the process and then it just fell off. One of the things that you have to remember a lot of times, especially if you're working directly with a hiring manager, it's not their full time job to hire people. They have other duties and responsibilities. So don't take it personal because what if a server went out or what if their building caught on fire or what if someone in their company pass away unexpectedly? Then that changes the dynamic of their organization and they have to do things. In the US Between Thanksgiving and New Year's, the hiring process slows down because a lot of people are taking time off for work. It's use it or lose it time. So most companies, larger organizations, give their employees somewhere around the second week of January to take all of their vacation or they lose. So you have so many people taking time off. Someone may have taken off for Thanksgiving, someone may have taken off at the beginning of December, someone's taking off mid December, first week of January. So there's multiple people who are involved in the interview process that are going to just be out of the loop. And so it won't pick back up until mid January. But this can happen at any time of the year, not just the holiday season. So keep in mind that it might not be you, it might be internal factors into that organization. Now, the other thing is maybe they decided that they no longer need this person. Maybe someone on their team stepped up and said, you know what, I can take on this extra work and it's only a temporary project. And so they just drop off the map and stop communicating with you because someone has picked up the flag. And then in another situation, you might not be the best person for that role. In that case, if your curiosity has already been piqued and maybe you were a passive job seeker, maybe you weren't looking for a job, they reached out to you, maybe it's a good time to go ahead and fully engage in the job search process. And keep in mind that even though on paper this seems like a great opportunity for you, it might not really be a great opportunity at the end of the day. And I'm a firm believer in what is for you is going to be for you. But don't waste too much time on a job if they're not giving you feedback. If they have went dark, completely dark on you within two weeks, if you were expecting to hear from them, it's appropriate to send them an email. And then I would even send one email after that, but I wouldn't send a third message. For some companies, I've seen hiring managers say they like the job seeker to, quote, unquote, beg them. So if you reach out three times, they might give you the job. That's not my personality. I personally wouldn't do that. But you have to know the role and the culture of the organization that you're applying to work with.

That last part that he said about companies wanting you to beg, I've never heard that before, but that makes sense. That really makes sense. I think this is great advice. I really think that the audience is going to get a lot out of this. So thank you so, so much for joining us today.

My pleasure. Thank you again for having me.

Yeah. And before you go, remind everybody about your services and where you can be reached.

Yes. So my favorite form of communication is going to be via Twitter. So Jacqueline V. Twilly on Twitter, JB Twilley is my handle and I'm also on LinkedIn. So if your company has a women's organization and you'd like me to come in and teach the women in your organization how to negotiate. I can do that. If you're a college or university with students and it's graduation season, I can come in and prepare your students to negotiate their first job offer. And if you are a professional woman or a woman entrepreneur who needs some coaching on negotiation skills, whether it's a job offer or small business deal, you can give me a call and I could help out that way. And my number, you can text it. This is 678-774-9494 and if you mention the podcast then I'll know where you got the number from.

Perfect. Thank you again. Appreciate it.

My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

I hope you enjoyed that episode. If you're finding this information helpful, please leave a review and subscribe My go. Our goal is to teach these skills to as many people as possible and leaving a review helps our search results, which helps us to reach more people. And remember, negotiation is where persuasion and problem solving meet. So if you ever have any questions or need help with specific situations, feel free to reach out to me. I'd love to help. Thank you so much for listening and I hope you have a great week.